PDA

View Full Version : Double Standards (updated)



KB50MJ
17-04-2009, 02:16 AM
Now this was a thread made on MJJCommunity in 2007 and it talks about how well MJ sold against current artists and how people wrongfully compare MJ's sales now with his in the 80's and 90's.

Now since this was made in 2007, some figures are a bit old. So I will update them here. And I will add more artists of today to compare by.

Also no one can comment on it anymore, so I figured I can make a new updated version for more current artists and sales to compare by and for new people to comment on now.

As we all know, MJ reached phenomenal heights in the 80s(110 million records) and 90's(123 million records), but I think he reached so far that people always compare him back to that era. This means that even though he continues to sell extremely well relative to other artists, some focus on that period so much that anything he does in more recent memory is labeled a disappointment. Case in point: Invincible. Invincible sold 10-12 million albums worldwide (2x Platinum in the US), but many have said that it did "badly." How badly did Invincible really do? Well, let's take a look at our new "King of Pop," Justin Timberlake. Justin's first album, Justified, sold 7 million worldwide(3.5 million in the U.S.) and the second, FS/LS, has sold 9 million albums (4 million in the U.S.),both of which is not all that outrageously bigger than what Invincible sold in the US. That means Justin has sold about 16 million albums in his solo career, which is contained entirely within this decade. How many albums has MJ sold so far this decade? Far more than 25 million, about 30 million albums sold this decade. So what I propose: instead of doing the silly thing of comparing MJ now (or anyone else) to the insane thing he was in the 80s and 90's, let's compare him to other artists. Some other prominent (or "hot") current artists and what they have sold worldwide(Now these are only album sales)....

Justin Timberlake - 16 million (about)

50 Cent - 27.8 million (about)

Beyonce - 20.55 million (somewhere around there)

Christina Aguilera - 25.76 million (about)

Chris Brown- 6 million(about)

Lil' Wayne- 8.55 million (about)

Fergie- 6.5 million (about)

Kanye West- 14.3 million (about)

Rihanna-7.8 million (about)

Jay-Z- 26.1 million (about)

In this decade, the only artists that I can think of that have outsold MJ are Norah Jones and Eminem (who has sold the most in this decade). I'm sure there are others, but the point is there are not that many! We're talking about a performer here who's had a solo career going back to the early 70s, And has been subjected to the most negative press in recent years than anyone could possibly imagine. and he is still crushing the charts globally. But the problem is people are thinking about days when he used to crush the charts even more, to a time when MJ made chart-crushing a hobby. So this was just my rant about an obvious double standard....take it or leave it....

For More info on MJ's sales, please refer to my article: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60068

PieterM
17-04-2009, 03:09 AM
I really don't agree with your opinion. You can't compare Michael Jackson with these artists. Why not: you are talking about Michael Jackson, one of the biggest solo musicians of all time. The beginning of his carreer is in the sixties, Justin Timberlake at the end of the nineties. Michael Jackson has created a huge fanbase during these 4 decades, Justin Timberlake and those others not.

MJJChichi
17-04-2009, 03:28 AM
i think kb is comparing the sales more than the artists ??

Mystic
17-04-2009, 03:34 AM
The fact Invincible has sold better that several popular artists whose combined sales are less than or barely better than MJ's one album is amazing.

Sure, Invincible didn't sell 100 million. It sold 12 million. But one album compared to JT's 2 albums at 16 million, that says a lot.

KB50MJ
17-04-2009, 03:36 AM
I really don't agree with your opinion. You can't compare Michael Jackson with these artists. Why not: you are talking about Michael Jackson, one of the biggest solo musicians of all time. The beginning of his carreer is in the sixties, Justin Timberlake at the end of the nineties. Michael Jackson has created a huge fanbase during these 4 decades, Justin Timberlake and those others not.

Yea like the person above said, I'm only comparing sales. Because people claim what MJ sells now is disappointing. But it was highlighted that MJ's worst is on par or greater than most other top artist of today.

But I didn't make this. I just reinvented and updated it.

KB50MJ
17-04-2009, 03:37 AM
The fact Invincible has sold better that several popular artists whose combined sales are less than or barely better than MJ's one album is amazing.

Sure, Invincible didn't sell 100 million. It sold 12 million. But one album compared to JT's 2 albums at 16 million, that says a lot.

And back in 2007 when this original article was made, JT albums were at 12 million.

Spider-Man
17-04-2009, 04:17 AM
What albums are you including in the 30 million figure?

There's Invincible, Number Ones,..are you inlcuding reissues like Thriller 25 in that?

I'm not trying to sound skeptical, I just like to give ppl facts about Mike so they know how amazing he is:yes:...and to do that I need to be prepared for potential questions they may throw at me...;D

KB50MJ
17-04-2009, 04:23 AM
What albums are you including in the 30 million figure?

There's Invincible, Number Ones,..are you inlcuding reissues like Thriller 25 in that?

I'm not trying to sound skeptical, I just like to give ppl facts about Mike so they know how amazing he is:yes:...and to do that I need to be prepared for potential questions they may throw at me...;D

Ok, lets tart with the albums he released this decade:

1. Invincible (2001) - 12 million

2. Greatest Hits HIStory Volume 1 (2001) - 3 million

3. Number Ones (2003) - 7 million

4. Michael Jackson: The Ultimate Collection (2004) - 500 thousand

5. The Essential Michael Jackson (2005) - 2.5 million

6. King of Pop (2008) - 700 thousand

7. Thriller: 25 (2008) - 3 million

So just from the albums he released this decade ALONE come to 28.7 million records sold.

Then add in the album sales of his back-catalog (stuff that he released before this decade) and its a little-bit over 30 million albums.

THen add in singles and you get anywhere from 35-40 million sold this decade.

lilsusie
17-04-2009, 04:59 AM
I understand you're comparing others' album sales to MJ's album sales but I hate to see 'justin timberlake' appear on
MJ forum. Truth is if Invincible was done by any other artist and with sales like that, it would have been deemed as successful. But becuase it's MJ's, it's a flop. Anything of MJ not selling like Thriller, Dangerous is deemed as flop.
Obvious Double standards.

KB50MJ
17-04-2009, 05:03 AM
I understand you're comparing others' album sales to MJ's album sales but I hate to see 'justin timberlake' appear on
MJ forum. Truth is if Invincible was done by any other artist and with sales like that, it would have been deemed as successful. But becuase it's MJ's, it's a flop. Anything of MJ not selling like Thriller, Dangerous is deemed as flop.
Obvious Double standards.

That's the whole point of this thread.

But if an album that did as well as Invincible is deemed a flop for MJ then that is kind-of a good thing because it shows how big he really is.

lilsusie
17-04-2009, 05:14 AM
That's the whole point of this thread.

But if an album that did as well as Invincible is deemed a flop for MJ then that is kind-of a good thing because it shows how big he really is.
Yupe. I kind of summarized it. From what I see, it's not a good thing cause it just keeps stressing that MJ is not as good as he once was. It's unfair for the stupid media to keep comparing everything MJ to Thriller. Maybe they should compare every other album sales to Thriller sales or Dangerous sales, then everything would have certainly been a flop. Such is fair to MJ then.

144,000
17-04-2009, 05:23 AM
That's the whole point of this thread.

But if an album that did as well as Invincible is deemed a flop for MJ then that is kind-of a good thing because it shows how big he really is.

i agree with this.

Hess
17-04-2009, 12:36 PM
MJ sure still sells a lot of albums.

BUT as said many times already in this thread - because it's MJ, it's a flop!?? - Had it been anyone else it would have been HUGE!

rahul_adams2001
17-04-2009, 07:55 PM
:)Yeah its very true when it comes to Michael Jackson then its all double standard.If anybody else sell even 2 million then that Artist is greatest.Though I don't pay more attention to these things anymore but yeah it bothers me sometimes.How you can ignore somebody's greatest achievements in music industry.And all these people doing this have bread by music industry only and if Michael Jackson is doing well then obviously music industry is also doing well.I think media should stop tryin to bring Michael Jackson down.But the problem is many people in music industry also ignore MJ and his achievements cuz if they don't then they would have come out to media and let whole world know how well Michael Jackson is still doing.
But yeah facts speak,thats it.Whole world can't ignore it but yeah some people still can't face the fact that a Black Child came out of poverty and became the most powerful artist in the music industry..I know its little controversial thing that I have said but I do believe it.

BruceWayne
17-04-2009, 09:29 PM
Ok, lets tart with the albums he released this decade:

1. Invincible (2001) - 12 million

2. Greatest Hits HIStory Volume 1 (2001) - 3 million

3. Number Ones (2003) - 7 million

4. Michael Jackson: The Ultimate Collection (2004) - 500 thousand

5. The Essential Michael Jackson (2005) - 2.5 million

6. King of Pop (2008) - 700 thousand

7. Thriller: 25 (2008) - 3 million

So just from the albums he released this decade ALONE come to 28.7 million records sold.

Then add in the album sales of his back-catalog (stuff that he released before this decade) and its a little-bit over 30 million albums.

THen add in singles and you get anywhere from 35-40 million sold this decade.

WTF, number ones sold 7 million?! That's insane!
I'm a fan and I don't even buy those compilation albums.

Alec
17-04-2009, 09:36 PM
Michaels sales this decade are over the top! He was on hiatus most of the time and he is still one of the biggest selling names in the industry! Can't imagine how much he could've achieved if all this crap hadn't happened...

BruceWayne
17-04-2009, 09:48 PM
Michaels sales this decade are over the top! He was on hiatus most of the time and he is still one of the biggest selling names in the industry!

Yeah I mean, Thriller 25 sold 3 million this far, it's amazing for what pretty much is the same album he dropped 25 years ago.
People talk about we don't buy albums because of internet, which is bullshit. Justin still sells big numbers, and so does Michael. Which proves that those who don't sell albums are not worthy of multi million numbers.
It's just, there is soooo much music now days and everyone is trying to be a superstar, and when they don't sell albums they whine about Internet piracy and shit because they don't want to come off as losers.

It's the same with the movie industry, how can they whine about no one is watching movies when last year The Dark Knight was one of, if not the biggest movie opening ever.

I'm sure that if Michael will drop a new album it will sell good IF they promote it right, it's all about the buzz.

Sifa_Dias
17-04-2009, 09:55 PM
Yeah I mean, Thriller 25 sold 3 million this far, it's amazing for what pretty much is the same album he dropped 25 years ago.
People talk about we don't buy albums because of internet, which is bullshit. Justin still sells big numbers, and so does Michael. Which proves that those who don't sell albums are not worthy of multi million numbers.
It's just, there is soooo much music now days and everyone is trying to be a superstar, and when they don't sell albums they whine about Internet piracy and shit because they don't want to come off as losers.

It's the same with the movie industry, how can they whine about no one is watching movies when last year The Dark Knight was one of, if not the biggest movie opening ever.

I'm sure that if Michael will drop a new album it will sell good IF they promote it right, it's all about the buzz.

You cannot downplay the effect of the internet and digital media, it most certainly does have an effect. Michael Jackson cannot be compared to modern day artist for that reason, when it comes to sales. You can't compare any artist from back in the day to current day artists, in that regard. It's just a different ballgame now, different industry, different market. Nobody will ever sell those numbers again, because of piracy and the internet. You can not ignore that.

The iconic thing about this for Michael is that he will probably remain the best selling artist for the rest of time, because those number of units just aren't shifted anymore. Especially with the start of the new millenium, the industry has just completely changed, and the type of media and artist with that.

BruceWayne
17-04-2009, 10:05 PM
You cannot downplay the effect of the internet and digital media, it most certainly does have an effect. Michael Jackson cannot be compared to modern day artist for that reason, when it comes to sales. You can't compare any artist from back in the day to current day artists, in that regard. It's just a different ballgame now, different industry, different market. Nobody will ever sell those numbers again, because of piracy and the internet. You can not ignore that.

The iconic thing about this for Michael is that he will probably remain the best selling artist for the rest of time, because those number of units just aren't shifted anymore. Especially with the start of the new millenium, the industry has just completely changed, and the type of media and artist with that.

I honestly don't think internet has as big reason to bad sales as the industry wants it to look like. I think we as consumers are getting smarter and more picky. I mean, we've figured out that all those "scary movie" and junk like that isn't worth paying attention to, and same goes for "junk music". Of course there are people that will download and not support music, but in the end we still support what we feel is genuine.

I mean, just look at it like this; there are libraries where you can borrow a book for free, still the book industry goes around, real good.

However, of course we can't ignore that if there was no piracy at all, not on the streets, not on the internet, not anywhere, and anyhow... then of course more music would be sold, but would it be THAT much of a difference, I honestly don't think so.
But some people don't care about music, they pay $2-3 for a 25 second ringtone when it costs less to download the entire song of Itunes.

Alec
17-04-2009, 10:16 PM
Yeah I mean, Thriller 25 sold 3 million this far, it's amazing for what pretty much is the same album he dropped 25 years ago.
People talk about we don't buy albums because of internet, which is bullshit. Justin still sells big numbers, and so does Michael. Which proves that those who don't sell albums are not worthy of multi million numbers.
It's just, there is soooo much music now days and everyone is trying to be a superstar, and when they don't sell albums they whine about Internet piracy and shit because they don't want to come off as losers.

It's the same with the movie industry, how can they whine about no one is watching movies when last year The Dark Knight was one of, if not the biggest movie opening ever.

I'm sure that if Michael will drop a new album it will sell good IF they promote it right, it's all about the buzz.

Agree with ya BruceWayne! Especially on the movies part.

Even though I don't really care about big numbers anymore as they don't mean as much as they did back in the 90s or 80s. I still think it's a good mark of success... Justin, Madonna, Mariah... They were all able to reach the 10 mil mark. I mean look at Usher. His Confessions album sold more than 15 mil copies only a few years ago! It's all possible, artists just don't release multiple singles and music videos anymore like Mike did with his previous albums. That's why even good albums don't sell as much as they could. Prince is a good example too. If he did care about commercial success he could easily sell 3-4 mil with proper promotion IMO...

It's more than likely that with good promotion both from Mike and his record company he can sell as many as Usher or even more. I'm sure that if all goes well he can do anywhere between 10-20 mil... but honestly... I think Michael doesn't care.

BruceWayne
17-04-2009, 10:52 PM
Agree with ya BruceWayne! Especially on the movies part.

Even though I don't really care about big numbers anymore as they don't mean as much as they did back in the 90s or 80s. I still think it's a good mark of success... Justin, Madonna, Mariah... They were all able to reach the 10 mil mark. I mean look at Usher. His Confessions album sold more than 15 mil copies only a few years ago! It's all possible, artists just don't release multiple singles and music videos anymore like Mike did with his previous albums. That's why even good albums don't sell as much as they could. Prince is a good example too. If he did care about commercial success he could easily sell 3-4 mil with proper promotion IMO...

It's more than likely that with good promotion both from Mike and his record company he can sell as many as Usher or even more. I'm sure that if all goes well he can do anywhere between 10-20 mil... but honestly... I think Michael doesn't care.

You're absolutely right, especially about Usher. I mean he had a bad break up while he was cheating and getting another girl pregnant, better promotion than that is hard to find.
I mean, these artists today they push out an album every year, and that's why we get tired of them. They've got to understand that it's a "waiting game", to wait until the time is right for a new album.

I mean like, I felt when MJ dropped "You Rock My World", that wasn't a good look and it didn't feel like "him"... I was watching that music video like "so this is all?", I don't know who he tried to cater with that video because I didn't felt like it was towards me as a fan.
But I mean like, Michael will for as long as he lives be able to sell out arenas all over the world even if he'd sit down on a chair through the entire concert, because his "presence" has high value. He's like a phenomenon that you don't get to see that often, even when he's out in daylight he's covered up... therefore he has this high value on his presence.
Going to a concert is like getting a confirmation that there really is a man of flesh and blood called Michael Jackson.

144,000
17-04-2009, 11:03 PM
Going to a concert is like getting a confirmation that there really is a man of flesh and blood called Michael Jackson.

i agree with that quote. lol...it has to partly explain why haters get tickets to see MJ just like fans. lol

BruceWayne
17-04-2009, 11:08 PM
Going to a concert is like getting a confirmation that there really is a man of flesh and blood called Michael Jackson.

i agree with that quote. lol...it has to partly explain why haters get tickets to see MJ just like fans. lol

^ EXACTLY!

Everyone wants to see the "alien", especially those that don't understand and are afraid of it.

michaelsson
17-04-2009, 11:10 PM
number 1s sold 12million.

KB50MJ
17-04-2009, 11:38 PM
number 1s sold 12million.

It did? Where did you hear this?

Katzr2000
17-04-2009, 11:57 PM
Just a note on the piracy thing, I did my thesis on that precise thing : How much has illegal file sharing really affected the music industry... I won't go into it all now cos it looong and im tired BUT the gist of my conclusion is that it has affected the industry by making it change the way it works and looking at different mediums to earn their money instead of just pushing out one hit wonders over and over (a plus IMO), but it has not effected them financially and sales wise as much as they make out. They extremely exagerate their "losses"! In fact their loss isn't a loss of money, its a loss of potential sales, which can fluctuate for various reasons. And they also use the amount of illegal downloads as "lost sales" to push their cause even tho studies have shown that A: Not all people who would download an album would have payed for the album if the illegal route wasn't available and B: Illegal downloads can cause an increase of sales, a try before you buy mentality!

I believe the decrease in average sales is down to oversaturation of the industry. Theres no standard anymore, and its anybodys game. That could be seen as positive or negative..

Sifa_Dias
17-04-2009, 11:59 PM
I honestly don't think internet has as big reason to bad sales as the industry wants it to look like. I think we as consumers are getting smarter and more picky. I mean, we've figured out that all those "scary movie" and junk like that isn't worth paying attention to, and same goes for "junk music". Of course there are people that will download and not support music, but in the end we still support what we feel is genuine.

I mean, just look at it like this; there are libraries where you can borrow a book for free, still the book industry goes around, real good.

However, of course we can't ignore that if there was no piracy at all, not on the streets, not on the internet, not anywhere, and anyhow... then of course more music would be sold, but would it be THAT much of a difference, I honestly don't think so.
But some people don't care about music, they pay $2-3 for a 25 second ringtone when it costs less to download the entire song of Itunes.

I think it is, i'm talking the internet and digtital media, not only piracy. Of course piracy isn't the ONLY reason. But the introduction of the Internet has caused more than just piracy. The internet and the digital media phenomenon has opened up the industries (music and movies in this case) in a big way.

There is much more out there now, more music, more bands, more media, more exposure. The market isn't as limited anymore as before, there are way more artists, more people find a voice now, this leads to overexposure, mass-consumption, etc. Nothing is as special anymore, which leads to less interest in the product.

Another reason is the way stars market themselves now, which is also moving all to digital, pretty much everything is. The days of an artist being this distant figure that was mysterious are pretty much over (a few exceptions remain), but overall they are way more in your face. That diminishes a part of the appeal and what makes the person so special.

Someone like michael jackson can't do his thing the same way he used to anymore, nobody can. He can't use the media like he did, he can't use the record labels like he did, he can't use a tv channel like he did. The majority of the control shifted from the industry giants and labels, to the people. When people can choose between paying nothing or not much for something, or paying premium price, the majority will choose the latter. This is the choice that people now have.

144,000
18-04-2009, 12:10 AM
I think it is, i'm talking the internet and digtital media, not only piracy. Of course piracy isn't the ONLY reason. But the introduction of the Internet has caused more than just piracy. The internet and the digital media phenomenon has opened up the industries (music and movies in this case) in a big way.

There is much more out there now, more music, more bands, more media, more exposure. The market isn't as limited anymore as before, there are way more artists, more people find a voice now, this leads to overexposure, mass-consumption, etc. Nothing is as special anymore, which leads to less interest in the product.

Another reason is the way stars market themselves now, which is also moving all to digital, pretty much everything is. The days of an artist being this distant figure that was mysterious are pretty much over (a few exceptions remain), but overall they are way more in your face. That diminishes a part of the appeal and what makes the person so special.

Someone like michael jackson can't do his thing the same way he used to anymore, nobody can. He can't use the media like he did, he can't use the record labels like he did, he can't use a tv channel like he did. The majority of the control shifted from the industry giants and labels, to the people. When people can choose between paying nothing or not much for something, or paying premium price, the majority will choose the latter. This is the choice that people now have. lol...if what u say is true about Michael not being able to operate as he did before, then, how do you explain him selling out 50 concerts in a 20 000 seat arena in less than five hours, in, what most people say, is a recession? i mean, prior to o2, i am sure a lot of people in the media would've equated MJ's 'inability' to sell seats with his 'inability to sell cds like he used to, simply because of more choices..for starters.

i looked up youtube, and found out that mtv america. pulled the awards show with MJ and Nsync immediately after the london presale was a success. and then they played with the idea of returning vids to mtv america i don't think that was just coincidence. i think they didn't think....or didn't want to think that MJ wouild be successful with o2, or they wouldve done their catching up, as soon as there were rumours of MJ making an announcement, and before the presale commenced.

Katzr2000
18-04-2009, 12:19 AM
if what u say is true about Michael not being able to operate as he did before, then, how do you explain him selling out 50 concerts in a 20 000 seat arena in less than five hours, in, what most people say, is a recession?

Cos Michael is special :P :lol:

And thats not really to do with how he promotes / sells his music in a digital world is it? These concerts were off previous reputation and the anticipation due to the time gap since he last toured. Plus they were promoted beyond what any other artist does now! He will however have to take a different approach to promotion and release of his forthcoming album as he has done in the past. But knowing Michael this won't be the same as the other artists, cos he always has to go one step beyond! :D

And as for the rest of what you said...I don't really get your point or how its relevant to the "working different" theory...

144,000
18-04-2009, 12:26 AM
Cos Michael is special :P :lol:

And thats not really to do with how he promotes / sells his music in a digital world is it? These concerts were off previous reputation and the anticipation due to the time gap since he last toured. Plus they were promoted beyond what any other artist does now! He will however have to take a different approach to promotion and release of his forthcoming album as he has done in the past. But knowing Michael this won't be the same as the other artists, cos he always has to go one step beyond! :D

And as for the rest of what you said...I don't really get your point or how its relevant to the "working different" theory...
well,, lol...i certainly agree with ur first line about MJ being special. cus with all the choices out there by now for consumers, we shoulda been all up in MJ's mystery, by now, like we are in other artists' mystery. but we're not. there are other artists who have waited a long time between tours, who didn't sell out the way MJ just did. so..i don't quite agree with the rest of ur statement. lol, because what u said in ur first line, covers it, for me. MJ is simply special:yes:. i mean, he simply doesn't play by the same set of rules as others, which is why he constantly seems to astonish many, with the outcomes of his circumstances. lol

Hess
18-04-2009, 12:36 AM
#1's can't have sold better than Invincible can it??

AND -Has The Ultimate collection only sold 500.000 copies ?? - That's not very much. - It's a must have for fans, can't believe only 500.000 has bought it!

144,000
18-04-2009, 12:40 AM
#1's can't have sold better than Invincible can it??

AND -Has The Ultimate collection only sold 500.000 copies ?? - That's not very much. - It's a must have for fans, can't believe only 500.000 has bought it!

lol..i can't believe that either, since every random fan i ever came across on any site i have ever been on, says they have a copy.

Katzr2000
18-04-2009, 01:24 AM
well,, lol...i certainly agree with ur first line about MJ being special. cus with all the choices out there by now for consumers, we shoulda been all up in MJ's mystery, by now, like we are in other artists' mystery. but we're not. there are other artists who have waited a long time between tours, who didn't sell out the way MJ just did. so..i don't quite agree with the rest of ur statement. lol, because what u said in ur first line, covers it, for me. MJ is simply special:yes:. i mean, he simply doesn't play by the same set of rules as others, which is why he constantly seems to astonish many, with the outcomes of his circumstances. lol

Too tired too discuss / argue so...so...*blows rasberry!* :P


lol..i can't believe that either, since every random fan i ever came across on any site i have ever been on, says they have a copy.

I dont!

Spider-Man
18-04-2009, 01:33 AM
Ok, lets tart with the albums he released this decade:

1. Invincible (2001) - 12 million

2. Greatest Hits HIStory Volume 1 (2001) - 3 million

3. Number Ones (2003) - 7 million

4. Michael Jackson: The Ultimate Collection (2004) - 500 thousand

5. The Essential Michael Jackson (2005) - 2.5 million

6. King of Pop (2008) - 700 thousand

7. Thriller: 25 (2008) - 3 million

So just from the albums he released this decade ALONE come to 28.7 million records sold.

Then add in the album sales of his back-catalog (stuff that he released before this decade) and its a little-bit over 30 million albums.

THen add in singles and you get anywhere from 35-40 million sold this decade.


This is just ridiculous...seriously!!! The freakin' media needs to stop hatin' and give the man his props...

KB50MJ
18-04-2009, 02:16 AM
#1's can't have sold better than Invincible can it??

AND -Has The Ultimate collection only sold 500.000 copies ?? - That's not very much. - It's a must have for fans, can't believe only 500.000 has bought it!


Well #1's sold 1.785 million and Invincible sold 2.5 million in the U.S. so they are not that far behind.

And as far as the Ultimate collection goes, 500,000 is a A LOT of people. so it seems about right.

KB50MJ
18-04-2009, 02:18 AM
This is just ridiculous...seriously!!! The freakin' media needs to stop hatin' and give the man his props...

I know. MJ is at least one of the Top 10 selling artists of this decade(worldwide) and he only released ONE studio album so far.

Think about it. MJ is still selling more records than most of his competition and he is one of the Top selling acts of the decade. And he is in decline.

rahul_adams2001
18-04-2009, 05:43 AM
lol..i can't believe that either, since every random fan i ever came across on any site i have ever been on, says they have a copy.
I think Ultimate Collection wasn't released properly.I had to get my copy from Amazon cuz I couldn't find it in any local stores here and I think it was never released here and like here in many countries it wasn't released.:(..But for such a great collection with good price 500,000 copies are also not bad.And we know the price of this set was atleast 30-35$$ on internet but in local stores price was more I guesss.

KB50MJ
18-04-2009, 05:53 AM
I think Ultimate Collection wasn't released properly.I had to get my copy from Amazon cuz I couldn't find it in any local stores here and I think it was never released here and like here in many countries it wasn't released.:(..But for such a great collection with good price 500,000 copies are also not bad.And we know the price of this set was atleast 30-35$$ on internet but in local stores price was more I guesss.

Really? I see a lot of them at my local Best Buy all the time.

rahul_adams2001
18-04-2009, 05:58 AM
Really? I see a lot of them at my local Best Buy all the time.
Yeah in NY you might see it everywhere but it was never released in India.I have never ever seen The Ultimate Collection in any Local Record Store here:(So I had to buy from Amazon,though I hardly play those CD's cuz I ripped all those songs on my laptop with great quality from those CDs.:cheeky:

Spider-Man
18-04-2009, 06:30 AM
I think Ultimate Collection wasn't released properly.I had to get my copy from Amazon cuz I couldn't find it in any local stores here and I think it was never released here and like here in many countries it wasn't released.:(..But for such a great collection with good price 500,000 copies are also not bad.And we know the price of this set was atleast 30-35$$ on internet but in local stores price was more I guesss.

I remember it being at Tower records...that's where ig ot my copy...I think I paid $60 for mine...but a couple of months after I bought it the price dropped to $40...

A, and if Mike is in decline, then sign me up...shoot, I may not be a singer but I wanna be doing that well when I'm in decline. Betcha sum of these artists nowadays wouldn't mind it either...

Soso Deaf
18-04-2009, 09:12 PM
the media can compare all they damn want to. they acn lie about sales and try to defame but when push comes to shove, he showed everyone the truth....

who was the dude who sold out 50 shows IN ONE LOCATION in five hrs? i forgot his name

michaelsson
18-04-2009, 09:24 PM
It did? Where did you hear this?

cant remember lol,but i do remember reading and it watching it somewhere

troubleman84
18-04-2009, 10:10 PM
If piracy is by all means why the industry is flopping then why is MICHAEL JACKSON still selling albums?

Makes KB's point about double standards. When the industry does well and MJ only does ten million globally of a studio album, it's a flop, but then when the industry is flagging (and it is no doubt) and MJ sold three million, those same people say "why did it sold that many!?" :lol:

troubleman84
18-04-2009, 10:11 PM
Well #1's sold 1.785 million and Invincible sold 2.5 million in the U.S. so they are not that far behind.

And as far as the Ultimate collection goes, 500,000 is a A LOT of people. so it seems about right.

Plus THE ULTIMATE COLLECTION is a FOUR DISC BOX SET PLUS A DVD! :rofl:

Hess
18-04-2009, 11:08 PM
Plus THE ULTIMATE COLLECTION is a FOUR DISC BOX SET PLUS A DVD! :rofl:

Yeah I knwo - and it was rather expensieve too, but worldwide 500.000 sold isn't very much is it?

troubleman84
19-04-2009, 12:07 AM
For a quadruple box set? I say yes it is. The thousands that buy it (if it's like 1,000 or so) is counted four times. I know you wasn't expecting four million or something, were you? :lol: And this is to everyone who says "everyone I talked to got it". :lol:

KB50MJ
19-04-2009, 01:09 AM
^^^Also most people or fans already have all of those songs.

michaelsson
20-04-2009, 02:10 AM
Yeah I knwo - and it was rather expensieve too, but worldwide 500.000 sold isn't very much is it?


nope,cuz if if he sells 1 boxset its counted as 5 lol.

troubleman84
20-04-2009, 03:31 AM
^^ Y'all just saying that because it's Michael. :lol:

Hess
20-04-2009, 02:49 PM
nope,cuz if if he sells 1 boxset its counted as 5 lol.


That means only 100.000 copies were sold worldwide??

That's not many. - Some of the big names in Denmark sells more than 100.000 copies of their albums (not 5 CD sets I know) but in DK we are only 5 million people, so worldwide 100.000 copies sold of TUC seems very bad!

Alec
20-04-2009, 04:25 PM
I think 500 000 of box sets sold :) so 2.5 mln discs sold.

Same thing with HIStory - sold 18 mln albums, but 36 mln discs :)

144,000
20-04-2009, 07:35 PM
^^ Y'all just saying that because it's Michael. :lol:

lol...whatever people say, whatever figures are given, the one thing that is easy to overlook is that copies are selling every day, of all his albums. the figures don't stand still. that explains the fans constantly chasing his SUV. you can bet, when he makes an appearance, the people who experience that thrill, live, in their presence, wanna go home and hear his music. lol..that means they have to buy it, or they already bought it. and the immediacy is important to them. so, most likely, they're buyin it. as long as people feel the need to chase his SUV, they feel the need to buy his music, cus..well...lol..obviously, they're thinking about him. lol. and the AIN'T hearin him that much on the radio, cus that's rare enough to summon a thread called 'yay i just heard MJ on the radio'.

michaelsson
20-04-2009, 09:52 PM
I think 500 000 of box sets sold :) so 2.5 mln discs sold.

Same thing with HIStory - sold 18 mln albums, but 36 mln discs :)

now that mkaes more sense lol

michaelsson
20-04-2009, 09:54 PM
^^ Y'all just saying that because it's Michael. :lol:

100,000 copies or less ww 2 any1 is a flop 2me lol

troubleman84
20-04-2009, 10:27 PM
Anyway... this topic was about double standards, right? :lol:

Soso Deaf
21-04-2009, 12:46 AM
mike done gave everyone and they mama a copy of the box set...lawd he was throwing them at people during the trial! Lol

bobmoo79
21-04-2009, 08:29 AM
Ok, lets tart with the albums he released this decade:

1. Invincible (2001) - 12 million

2. Greatest Hits HIStory Volume 1 (2001) - 3 million

3. Number Ones (2003) - 7 million

4. Michael Jackson: The Ultimate Collection (2004) - 500 thousand

5. The Essential Michael Jackson (2005) - 2.5 million

6. King of Pop (2008) - 700 thousand

7. Thriller: 25 (2008) - 3 million

So just from the albums he released this decade ALONE come to 28.7 million records sold.

Then add in the album sales of his back-catalog (stuff that he released before this decade) and its a little-bit over 30 million albums.

THen add in singles and you get anywhere from 35-40 million sold this decade.

To be honest I think your sales figures are overly optimistic. Can you back these up with official sales data?

I can only find official certifications to support sales of 5 million for Invincible, 2.5million for T25. Greatest Hits Vol 1 and Number Ones also seem over the top.

also, the number of releases for those other artists mentioned is less than for Mike, who has been releasing stuff pretty rapidly since 2000. It's not fair to compare sales from 7 releases to sales of say 3 or 4 releases.

Mike does still sell fairly well on a worldwide level (T25 was 15th best selling album worldwide last year), but I don't think anyone could realistically claim that Mike is in the Top 10 for total sales this decade.
Things might improve if a new album is released, but I wouldn't expect that to sell any more than 5 million in total, as that's a pretty astronomical figure these days.

butterflies
21-04-2009, 02:58 PM
MJ sure still sells a lot of albums.

BUT as said many times already in this thread - because it's MJ, it's a flop!?? - Had it been anyone else it would have been HUGE!

Exactly! That is what makes me mad. People talk like Invincible was a huge flop and that Michael is washed up and all that. Obviously if he's still sold that many albums in this decade with only releasing one with new material the whole time (and at the beginning too), then he's doing great. A lot of singers are seen as being hugely popular, and their sales were nowhere near that of Michael's. Let's do what someone else suggested and start comparing every album that comes out to the sales of Thriller. Yes, I know it came out many years ago, and it's not fair, but who cares? LOL, they aren't being fair either. :D

KB50MJ
21-04-2009, 07:47 PM
To be honest I think your sales figures are overly optimistic. Can you back these up with official sales data?

I can only find official certifications to support sales of 5 million for Invincible, 2.5million for T25. Greatest Hits Vol 1 and Number Ones also seem over the top.

also, the number of releases for those other artists mentioned is less than for Mike, who has been releasing stuff pretty rapidly since 2000. It's not fair to compare sales from 7 releases to sales of say 3 or 4 releases.

Mike does still sell fairly well on a worldwide level (T25 was 15th best selling album worldwide last year), but I don't think anyone could realistically claim that Mike is in the Top 10 for total sales this decade.
Things might improve if a new album is released, but I wouldn't expect that to sell any more than 5 million in total, as that's a pretty astronomical figure these days.

OK well for Invincible. 5.4 million was the first and only official figure for that album/ But that was the figure 3 months after its release. Its been 8 years since then. It surly sold more than 5.4 million.

Invincible sold at least 10 million, now I got these figures form a friend who is also tracking MJ's sales:
US: 2,500,000
Canada: 500,000
Japan: 375,000
Australia: 560,000
New Zealand: 105,000

It sold 4.04 in those 5 countries ALONE

And 5 million in all of Europe. And 1 million+ in the rest of the world. So thats 10.04 million. But It might have sold more in the rest of the world. So I said 12 million just to be safe. It was said to have sold 9 million years ago.



Now for Thriller: 25 I found at least 4 sources that claim 3 million sold as of 2009 for that album.

Now for Greatest Hits HIStory Vol 1, 3 million sounds about right. Considering it sold 2.32 million in just 9 countries. So 3 million is about right.

Number Ones is a HUGE seller around the world and is almost on par with Invincible in the U.S. It sold 5.585 million in just 21 countries. So 7 millions is the limit. But if you want a conservative estimation, it would be between 6-6.6 million sold.

So the my figures are not that un-realistic. I try to make the best calls that I can. Like Thriller selling 104 million. That is a highly inflated sales figure. Its sales are now a little-bit over 65 million as of 2009.


Anyway. I think its totally fair to compare MJ to artists of today. Some of them have more releases than MJ does.

Like for example. 50 cent released 12 released albums when you include studio albums, Compilation albums, Soundtracks, and Mixtapes.

My point was that people say MJ's sales are crappy and flopish this decade. But when you compare to other artists, his sales are very impressive.

Like I showed in the first post, MJ has sold a lot more albums this decade than a lot of other artists.

And I also wanted to dismiss that claim made by Rolling Stones that Justin Timberlake is the "new" King Of Pop.

Hess
22-04-2009, 12:11 AM
now that mkaes more sense lol


Yeah - that seems more accurate!

olivertom
22-04-2009, 03:06 AM
The reason that record sales (including Michael's) have gone down IS DIRECTLY to do with piracy.

In an open letter in 2007, Steve Jobs CEO of apple stated that...

.....

Through the end of 2006, customers purchased a total of 90 million iPods and 2 billion songs from the iTunes store. On average, thatís 22 songs purchased from the iTunes store for each iPod ever sold.

Todayís most popular iPod holds 1000 songs, and research tells us that the average iPod is nearly full. This means that only 22 out of 1000 songs, or under 3% of the music on the average iPod, is purchased from the iTunes store and protected with a DRM. The remaining 97% of the music is unprotected and playable on any player that can play the open formats.

.....

If CD sales have gone down and only 3% of of downloaded music is done so legally where are the lost sales? As many people are listening to music today as in the 80s, if not more.

Illegal downloads.

This is why it is unfair to compare Invincible to anything from the 80s or 90s.

Katzr2000
23-04-2009, 03:07 AM
The reason that record sales (including Michael's) have gone down IS DIRECTLY to do with piracy.

In an open letter in 2007, Steve Jobs CEO of apple stated that...

.....

Through the end of 2006, customers purchased a total of 90 million iPods and 2 billion songs from the iTunes store. On average, thatís 22 songs purchased from the iTunes store for each iPod ever sold.

Todayís most popular iPod holds 1000 songs, and research tells us that the average iPod is nearly full. This means that only 22 out of 1000 songs, or under 3% of the music on the average iPod, is purchased from the iTunes store and protected with a DRM. The remaining 97% of the music is unprotected and playable on any player that can play the open formats.

.....

If CD sales have gone down and only 3% of of downloaded music is done so legally where are the lost sales? As many people are listening to music today as in the 80s, if not more.

Illegal downloads.

This is why it is unfair to compare Invincible to anything from the 80s or 90s.

My argument is that piracy has effected sales just not as much as it is made out by record execs I believe that your above statements is just another example of this damage inflation.
In reference to your above statement, there are other things have to be taken into account, which you, or steve jobs has failed to mention! SOME of the loss in CD sales can be equated to the sales via legal sources of MP3s PLUS Itunes is not the only source of legal MP3s. And what you also have not taken into account is that a lot of people (myself included) transfer the music they already own on CD onto their IPODs and don't just fill it up with downloaded MP3s. I own an Ipod but don't even have an Itunes account, as I would much rather purchase it in CD format and then transfer it to my Ipod. You have to take into account that there will be others like me, lowering the percentage of MP3 purchases in relation to ipod capacity.
With all the above taken into account, you can see that the margin of loss will be a lot narrower!

Saying that though, I do agree that record sales from the 80's / 90's can not be compared to sales of the 00's. Not only because of piracy but also due to saturation of the market. Consumers have more choice now, but do not purchase more! Therefore their yearly quota of music purchases are spread over more artists, lowering the record sales average.

But thats not what this thread is trying to do! Its trying to educate people that you can't say Michael is a flop now cos he doesn't sell as many records as the 80's/ 90's. If thats the case then all artists now are unsuccessful, when they clearly are not!

Out of curiosity, how have madonna and mariah's (or any other multi-decade artist) sales figures changed?

Spider-Man
24-04-2009, 09:51 PM
^^^That's a good question.

BUt on another note, I'm a relatively new fan (since 2001), and so I don't have as much exposure to soem things as some of the older fans. Anyhow, I came across an article written in 1993 (after the Oprah interview) and the author very much underscores michael's musical achievements (only to contradict himself at the end by hoping for a Michael: Unplugged special). He says that Dangerous was basically a flop and that Michael hadn't done anything meaningful since Thriller among other things. This made me wonder how long have they been doing this to Michael, cuz I thought it was something new, but apparently not.


the link to the article is:
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,305696,00.html

edit: the article is pretty negative, just a warning...