Your Opinion - Could MJ Have Done All Fifty Shows?

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

KOPV said:

Elusive - was that comment directed at me? Just wondering because your post was after mine...

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No, it was a response to a post that's now been deleted.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

^ oh ok! I was wondering..

regarding the 50 shows, I mentioned in a previous post that it was the lack of sleep and the corresponding drugs from Murray that killed weakened and killed him.. I should have also mentioned that we do not know to what extent his Lupus could have played a part into what he could and could not handle..

You combine the fatigue and loss of energy with caused by the disease, weakening the immune system with a drug like propofol that prevents people from getting adequate sleep (which in that resting state is where our brain and rest of body recharges) would make a person beyond weak..

It is honestly impressive what he was able to do under the circumstances.. It shows how much mental strength and passion he had for the art of what he did..

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

Hmm. Maybe he could if he was able to sleep. HIStory and 30th Anniversary was done on a lot of medicine...

London had the advantage that he did not need to travel. - Each night after the show he could drive home and sleep.

Also - there where more days between concerts. - max 3 per week I think? - and it was split into 2 legs. - some concerts in 2009 - and some in 2010 - so he had a few months to gain energy.

I think he had till strength and passion to do it... But his sleeping problems was massive and when you do not get sleep you can't really do anything...
So if he would become naturally tired after the concerts and then being able to sleep without medicine - then I think he could do it. Dr. Murray should not have been hired, he should have been in a rehab program insted - maybe yoga or something to learn to relax.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

No, he would have got exhausted and probably passed out on stage. Michael had performed properly since 2001 and was heavily drugged up and mentally unstable at the time. He wanted to do the shows for financial desparation.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

Cats-whiskas said:

I would have liked to think he could have done them but deep in my heart I don't think so. He was far far too thin for one thing. The lack of sleep was also clearly going to be a massive issue. It is so debilitating. Murrays lack of care signed Michaels death warrant as far as I am concerned. Along with the allegations. I think he was a broken soul after them. despite being found not guilty - he never recovered from the pain. He never looked the same again. What this world did to him meant all 50 shows probably wouldn't have happened.

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I agree with your post Murray was not concern about Michael health giving Michael propofol at home was not the answer to his sleep problem it only made it worst

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

KOPV said:

^ oh ok! I was wondering..

regarding the 50 shows, I mentioned in a previous post that it was the lack of sleep and the corresponding drugs from Murray that killed weakened and killed him.. I should have also mentioned that we do not know to what extent his Lupus could have played a part into what he could and could not handle..

You combine the fatigue and loss of energy with caused by the disease, weakening the immune system with a drug like propofol that prevents people from getting adequate sleep (which in that resting state is where our brain and rest of body recharges) would make a person beyond weak..

It is honestly impressive what he was able to do under the circumstances.. It shows how much mental strength and passion he had for the art of what he did..

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So true this was not a drug to be use for his sleep problem Murray didn't know what he was doing

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

There are a lot of 'ifs' for me. If Michael had been treated as a human being with health and sleep issues instead of a money earner things could have been so different. If he was given time to get his health issues addressed it could have been different. If he had been referred to a sleep clinic and treated appropriately it could have been different. If many people who were handling his financial issues had been honest and not out for what they could make for themselves it could have been different. If some family members had loved him for just being him instead of a pot of gold when they needed it things could have been different. I could go on and on with 'if's. As things stood when the shows were about to happen - absolutely not.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

No, he would not have finished the 50 shows using medications used for surgery to sleep every night.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

Soulmum - your statement about "IF" is exactly right..

I hate to say this but the fact he didn't shows us he couldn't - WITH those IF's standing in the way.. IF we could eliminate the various IF's, of course he could have.

I think the biggest "IF" would be Conrad Murray! while factors come in layers, and I am not trying to be little things.. It was the snake Conrad that made the IF's so easily put in place.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

I watched "This Is It" last night, for about the millionth time, and I still get weepy and emotional over it.

He seems, happy in some parts, like he's really having fun, and that bit makes me smile. However, then I start thinking about the things that were going in the background of TII, the sleep issues, the stress of a concert series of this magnitude, the supposed financial issues, the craziness going on with managers and family, etc., and I look at his face as closely as I can, and swear I can see a tiredness, a sadness almost.

I think, he did want to do TII, but it got so big, so fast, he was being pulled in a bazillion different directions. Even taking Murray out of the picture completely, I think he would have struggled. From what I've read about Lupus, it is prone to flair during stressful times, and I think it would have affected him to some point. I'm 51 and also have an auto immune disease, and some days, it kicks my a$$ so badly that walking the 25 feet to my mailbox is exhausting. I don't have sleep problems, I eat well, and still it bites me. Michael didn't sleep, didn't eat well, so I can't imagine how tired and sore he must have felt on many days.

I think he would have given it a hella effort though (again, taking Murray out of the picture). He never liked disappointing his fans.

As I said in a previous post, with Murray in the picture, I believe it was only a matter of time before the devastating effects of Propofol would have taken him.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

You are so right it was just a matter of time.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

If he could (all considered) we would be talking about our experience after This Is it, not could he have made it..

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

KOPV said:

If he could (all considered) we would be talking about our experience after This Is it, not could he have made it..

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That's a rather technical approach of the question asked. Of course, the topic starter addresses MJ's ability to do the shows apart from Conrad Murray being his doctor. So, a more accurate reformulation of the question would be: would Michael have been able to do all 50 shows had Conrad Murray not been in the picture?

The dialogue then gets another direction.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

^ I'll have to say it is still dependent on his sleep issue and how it would have been addressed.. To do it, he would have needed proper sleep.. no REM sleep and lupas are ingredient for deterioration. Since we can't say "If he could have gotten rid of Lupas" all we can say is if there was a way to sleep than yes.

What killed him were specific variables, with Murray or not - we don't know how the sleep patterns would have been address.. So I can say it was not impossible, in fact very likely Michael would have done the 50 dates if sleep issues were not a factor.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

if people were really honest, those of us around in 2009, here on MJJC and in offline fan community, deep in our hearts we knew he couldnt do all the shows. No one ever said it but those of us who were buying multiple concert tickets were only buying tickets for the shows in July, August September 2009. No one was really planning for the later shows, everyone were really desperate for tickets for the first shows. I know some of the fans who were in LA, at the house and outside rehearsals hadnt even booked flights to London on June 25.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

^ Well, definitely not speaking for me. While I admit I wondered how his performance quality would be at his age and after being off the stage for so long.. Seeing that the last "long" performance set we've seen was 30th Anniversary in 2001..

I never in my wildest nightmare thought Michael would pass away. Even when watching the news as he was being taken to the hospital did I believe it.. People calling me, saying sorry for what is happening, and I said.. "Let's not believe what we see on the news yet. You know how they are with Michael"

my brain could not process a world without Michael Jackson!


The questions I had were.. "Will he pull off a show that would impress the doubters?" I even thought "I hope no shows are canceled or delayed for whatever reason." as there has been shows canceled before.. But when I bought my ticket, I never thought.. I would not be able to see him!!

And when I saw him 7 days prior to his death, stood outside of The Forum and listened to rehearsal I was PUMPED!! "HE'S STILL GOT IT"..

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

moonstreet said:

if people were really honest, those of us around in 2009, here on MJJC and in offline fan community, deep in our hearts we knew he couldnt do all the shows. No one ever said it but those of us who were buying multiple concert tickets were only buying tickets for the shows in July, August September 2009. No one was really planning for the later shows, everyone were really desperate for tickets for the first shows. I know some of the fans who were in LA, at the house and outside rehearsals hadnt even booked flights to London on June 25.

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It's a good point. I remember people posting clips of MJ leaving Dr Klein's and clearly being drugged. It wasn't a good sign and some people here commented on it at the time. There were concerns that he had a drug problem but of course they were shot down by some.

Aside from the drug and sleep issues I think it's fair to say that a 50 year old man who hasn't toured in over 10 years and barely performed live at all in that time would be out of practise and unless they were a fitness freak already it would take a herculean effort to get back to fighting fit, even if they were sleeping properly and not taking any form of drug. I don't believe that MJ kept himself in particularly fit physical condition in his last decade, though I could be wrong, I think his lean figure was due to his sleep issue and poor diet. His performance style was very physically demanding and I've said this before, but he should have reduced the amount of dancing and concentrated on live vocals. A man in his 50s CANNOT put on the same physical show that a guy in his 20s or 30s can. It's physically impossible, yet that appeared to be what MJ was attempting to do. The result would have been disappointing to many. BUT if he had relaxed and done a good job of singing live the audience would have been forgiving. We know his vocals were still on point! I think even the critics would have been realistic and given him credit for making the right choice, but they would not forgive a 50something attempting to dance like a 20year old while miming and wheezing his way through show after show.
I also don't think MJ was putting in sufficient hours in rehearsal to to justify an argument that he was capable of doing the shows to the best of his ability. Also, it appeared to me that there wasn't sufficient time to allow him to gain the fitness he needed. Yes, I think he could have done many, many shows. Despite what I have said above I think it's even possible that he could have completed all 50 shows. The schedule actually seemed quite relaxed IMO. I think better than many residencies in Vegas. But I think his performance would have been better during those shows if he maintained his fitness throughout his life and kept performing regularly after the HIStory tour and adapted his performance style to suit his age.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

MJTruth said:

It's a good point. I remember people posting clips of MJ leaving Dr Klein's and clearly being drugged. It wasn't a good sign and some people here commented on it at the time. There were concerns that he had a drug problem but of course they were shot down by some.

Aside from the drug and sleep issues I think it's fair to say that a 50 year old man who hasn't toured in over 10 years and barely performed live at all in that time would be out of practise and unless they were a fitness freak already it would take a herculean effort to get back to fighting fit, even if they were sleeping properly and not taking any form of drug. I don't believe that MJ kept himself in particularly fit physical condition in his last decade, though I could be wrong, I think his lean figure was due to his sleep issue and poor diet. His performance style was very physically demanding and I've said this before, but he should have reduced the amount of dancing and concentrated on live vocals. A man in his 50s CANNOT put on the same physical show that a guy in his 20s or 30s can. It's physically impossible, yet that appeared to be what MJ was attempting to do. The result would have been disappointing to many. BUT if he had relaxed and done a good job of singing live the audience would have been forgiving. We know his vocals were still on point! I think even the critics would have been realistic and given him credit for making the right choice, but they would not forgive a 50something attempting to dance like a 20year old while miming and wheezing his way through show after show.
I also don't think MJ was putting in sufficient hours in rehearsal to to justify an argument that he was capable of doing the shows to the best of his ability. Also, it appeared to me that there wasn't sufficient time to allow him to gain the fitness he needed. Yes, I think he could have done many, many shows. Despite what I have said above I think it's even possible that he could have completed all 50 shows. The schedule actually seemed quite relaxed IMO. I think better than many residencies in Vegas. But I think his performance would have been better during those shows if he maintained his fitness throughout his life and kept performing regularly after the HIStory tour and adapted his performance style to suit his age.

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Seeing him leave Kleins office 1,2,3 (how many ever times we saw) one time I believe in a wheel chair.. I do recall wondering what is he up to? To be honest I thought maybe more so getting physical work done before the tour over drug related.. that was my thought at the time!!

It's true that we could not expect a 50 year old to put on the same performance as a 20-30 year old.. But where I'll have to have a different opinion is this!

It wasn't the same show he was putting on in his 20's or 30's..

* The most obvious take on that is no touring, it was a stationary show
* The days between shows were fairly smooth
* Was not the same sped up tempo as his performances in his 20's early 30's
* the show was built in a way that he would get extra rest - you better believe that a big part of the "special effects" like various 3D films, pre recorded footage etc. was built into the show to distract fans from the fact he's resting..

Think about it this way.

Light Man - no dancing yet
WBSS
Jam
The Drill - 3D portion (rest)
TDCAU
Human Nature (slower song) - Stranger in Moscow was also rehearsed, its not clear of he was going to perform both or swap..
Smooth Criminal - 3D portion (rest) and the dancing infront green screen could have also been set for pre recording (possible more rest)
The Way You Make Me Feel
Motown Medley (that whole dance break with the dancers - Michael rests)
Rock With You
IJCSLY (slower song)
Thriller - 3D portion (rest) we don't know if the part with the black window kicks off the song or after he "disappears" (while gone resting again)
Dirty Diana - (Bed sequence slows it down physically)
Beat It (before he shows up, he's hiding/resting)
Black or white
Earth Song 3D portion (rest)
We Are The World (without Michael - resting)
Heal The World
You Are Not Alone (slower song)
Billie Jean
Will You Be There
Man In The Mirror
Plane Exit


My point is, it was really put together I way to give Michael much more rest than ever before.. Some of these 3D films were over 5 minutes long.. and these are just things we know..

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

I doubt 50 shows, the original 10 yes, but not 50.

I'd be more inclined to say he could perform around 50 shows during the beginning of his rehearsal. I saw a video, which is on youtube where him and Travis Payne were rehearsing and coming up with new dance moves with the song Too Bad playing in the background.
Michael looked very well here. His dancing was no different than before and he seemed able to keep up.
Now in the documentary, it's very hard to get a sense of how Michael was. Firstly, unlike the Dangerous Tour rehearsals, it's heavily edited. You barely see Michael complete a song in the same outfit. This to me suggest he had weak moments, or pauses during the rehearsals.

10 shows would have been a good start. I do believe he would have performed very well and it would help gain his confidence back.
10 shows probably would have kicked off a world tour.
It's hard to imagine him doing 50 shows, then starting a world tour. All together you're looking at over 120 shows? Too much. That's like the Bad Tour.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

Yes, I think he could have done 50 shows with the good amount of brakes in between.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

KOPV said:

Seeing him leave Kleins office 1,2,3 (how many ever times we saw) one time I believe in a wheel chair.. I do recall wondering what is he up to? To be honest I thought maybe more so getting physical work done before the tour over drug related.. that was my thought at the time!!

It's true that we could not expect a 50 year old to put on the same performance as a 20-30 year old.. But where I'll have to have a different opinion is this!

It wasn't the same show he was putting on in his 20's or 30's..

* The most obvious take on that is no touring, it was a stationary show
* The days between shows were fairly smooth
* Was not the same sped up tempo as his performances in his 20's early 30's
* the show was built in a way that he would get extra rest - you better believe that a big part of the "special effects" like various 3D films, pre recorded footage etc. was built into the show to distract fans from the fact he's resting..

Think about it this way.

Light Man - no dancing yet
WBSS
Jam
The Drill - 3D portion (rest)
TDCAU
Human Nature (slower song) - Stranger in Moscow was also rehearsed, its not clear of he was going to perform both or swap..
Smooth Criminal - 3D portion (rest) and the dancing infront green screen could have also been set for pre recording (possible more rest)
The Way You Make Me Feel
Motown Medley (that whole dance break with the dancers - Michael rests)
Rock With You
IJCSLY (slower song)
Thriller - 3D portion (rest) we don't know if the part with the black window kicks off the song or after he "disappears" (while gone resting again)
Dirty Diana - (Bed sequence slows it down physically)
Beat It (before he shows up, he's hiding/resting)
Black or white
Earth Song 3D portion (rest)
We Are The World (without Michael - resting)
Heal The World
You Are Not Alone (slower song)
Billie Jean
Will You Be There
Man In The Mirror
Plane Exit


My point is, it was really put together I way to give Michael much more rest than ever before.. Some of these 3D films were over 5 minutes long.. and these are just things we know..

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This is a great post and I agree with your theories on how and why Michael could have absolutely done 50 shows, the way they were planned out and structured. I don't believe the visits to Klein's office were drug-related, at that time....I'm confident that Michael was trying to look his best before the shows started and regardless of whether we are suspicious of Klein's motives/integrity or not, he did have Michael looking good.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

Maybe Mikky, but when MJ left the office on numerous occasions, he was very clearly intoxicated in some way.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

Mikky Dee said:

This is a great post and I agree with your theories on how and why Michael could have absolutely done 50 shows, the way they were planned out and structured. I don't believe the visits to Klein's office were drug-related, at that time....I'm confident that Michael was trying to look his best before the shows started and regardless of whether we are suspicious of Klein's motives/integrity or not, he did have Michael looking good.

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Yeah, I personally always thought the visits to Klein were cosmetic related. I mean the fact of the matter is, he would not have to make an in person visit to get drugs of any sort.. He had a doctor in his house that could order propofol by the gallon for F's sake. and IF he were to want drugs from Klien, well he has drivers that can (and did for various things) do pick ups.

I always thought he was going to Klien for 1 of or 2 reasons.. 1. cosmetic reasons 2. quick 'odd' pictures of Michael coming in and out of the doctors office - PR.. But regarding PR, he could have just gone to a barns & Nobles with tape on his face lol.. just an idea.


To my previous post, according to the actual last drawn up set list, it was actually in an order to give more breaks than the list we saw written on that board by Kenny Ortega - that I modeled my original list after.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

MJTruth said:

Maybe Mikky, but when MJ left the office on numerous occasions, he was very clearly intoxicated in some way.

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Oh, I'm not denying that. Klein stated that Michael was very sensitive to pain and also needle phobic, so he would have had to be sedated fairly heavily for any rebuilding/cosmetic procedures that he may have needed (and wanted) at the time. Sedation can take quite a while to wear off. I know when I collected my son after he had his wisdom teeth surgically removed, he couldn't walk on his own and needed to be helped into the car. He was not thinking clearly at all, for at least another four hours or so.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

When going under for cosmetic procedures, it takes a while to not be sedated.. If anyone has gone under knows it takes a while to "wake up"..

I am not going to bury my head in the sand & say that MJ could do all those 50 ‘This Is It’ shows.

Given his failing health & mental condition during that period, even one ‘This Is It’ show would have been too many for him.

There is also a very crucial parameter that some fans tend to ignore. His insomnia worsened at the time, meaning it was becoming more & more difficult for him to operate even on a basic level, let alone to perform on stage & regardless of how those shows were structured.

It is telling that even MJ himself knew that he could not do more than 10 shows & this is the reason why he never agreed to those additional 40 dates.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

I think he could have done 50 shows as long as there were some breaks. He wasn't fully prepared to do 50 back to back night after night but it could have been broken up a lot farther apart than how it was scheduled. He was just so frail and skinny at the time he passed that he needed to regain muscle strength and regain weight because the rehearsals took such a toll on his health and mentality thus causing what happened on June 25th but that had been a prolonged thing that was creeping up from 1984 after the Pepsi commercial then 1993 when he went to rehab.

Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

I heard that half his body was cold. So no i don't think he could've. But maybe if he gained some weight and muscle and got rid of drugs.....well anything is possible.


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Re: So...do you guys think he could have done all 50 shows?

I never knew how much to think of this MJ being cold thing. 1. Yes he was thin and thin people do not carry as much body heat. 2. Michael always liked to be in super hot areas.. in the studio people would sweat for hownit he kept it (as an example) several people have mentioned that Michael would keep rooms uncomfortably warm..

He could have had naturally a cooler body temperature than many.. I'll just say thay people with lack of sleep tend to have lower body temperature, primarily in the hands and feet.

Shouldn't have ever been more than 10 and he was deteriorating rapidly so no all 50 would've been a miracle. AEG were even planning on pulling the plug. The whole thing was a terrible setup for MJ and he would never benefit from it.