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Did MJ Have ANY Faults?

Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

respect77 said:
By your logic I can say: we can never be sure if you do not have a sexual interest in children and I can continue to hint at you having a sexual interest in children, after all we can never be sure, right? If we are now judging people based on what you ASSUME to be in their heads rather than whether there is any evidence against them of anything like that.

You are also using straw-man arguments:





Unlike it seems to be the case with you, most of us actually did our research regarding the allegations against him, we do not base our belief that he was innocent on things like "he was nice and charming", nor do we base our belief that he was innocent in all allegations against him based on the fact he was acquitted of the Arvizo case. We believe he was innocent in other allegations as well because we researched those cases as well. So you are simply attacking straw-men here.

If you have a genuine doubt or problem you can go to the trials and tribulations section and ask of those who have more knowledge in these cases than you.
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Sorry I believe you missunderstood me... I meant I questioned his behaviour with children sometimes. Which I could see in videos. To me there's a difference between the scenes with macauly culkin (michael is very likeable here!!!) and scenes where is too much handholding to me for example.

And I meant regarding the cases and what I read about them I believe he was innocent. Although there are some things that I don't completely understand Even After Hours Of research.

And yes you could say that about anyone... although about me. But I Said it about hin because his interest in children was definitly unnormal. Maybe unnormal in a very good way, a way we all should be or maybe not. I believe he was just very naive and had a great heart. But I would never say that I Can be 100 % sure that he didn't although have Interest in children. Behause I simply can't know. And I wanted to say that that wouldn't make him a criminal when he didn't life this! (And again I don't believe he had that interest! I just said I can't be 100% sure even after research.

And I want to ask you if you can be 100% sure that he didn't??? and no I don't have a Problem at all and never wanted To be offensive. Just can't believe when some fan's say he was 100% mistakeless and I wanted to bring a extreme example that we can't say that about no one! ?

So is everything alright? Didn't want to offend anyone
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

respect77 said:
^ By your logic I will just assume that YOU have a sexual interest in children. After all we do not need anything else by your logic, just assumptions about someone based on nothing else than "we cannot be 100% sure of the opposite".
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No because there where allegations (many!) and he had much more to do with children than most people.
And yes I researched about the allegations and believe that they are untrue! but there are also a few minor things that I find questionable... but that doesn't mean that I believe he was guilty. Maybe his heart was just to good for the world and he was very naive.

But I would never say 100 % that there couldn't be other reasons. But yes that was a extrem example I brought to answer the question: can we even know that he had NO mistakes?
No we cannot. Because we can't judge anyone by things we read. And even though we had known him we couldn't answer the question if he had no mistake. I just wanted to show with the example that you can never say that about anyone because we can't look in the heads of other people
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

respect77 said:
If you want to insinuate someone is guilty or has sexual desires for children then the burden of proof is on you to prove that and it is not sufficient to shift the burden of proof on the other side - which is what this very lazy and fallacious "we cannot 100% be sure" argument eventually does.

Now, you claim you believe MJ was innocent and that you never insinuated otherwise. It sure looked like you were insinuating things. You said among other things "just because he was acquitted in 2005 it doesn't mean he was innocent in the other cases" (when no one said his 2005 acquittal is why we believe he was innocent in the other cases as well) and "just because someone is nice it doesn't mean he is innocent" (when no one said we believe he is innocent because he was nice). Fallacy after fallacy because no one argued these are the reasons of why we believe in his innocence.

Then you went on to basically say "even if he didn't do anything we cannot 100% be sure he didn't have a sexual desire for children". WTF? Sorry but accusing someone of pedophilia is a serious thing, so I am not going to take this lightly, even if you are "just" insinuating things by this lazy "cannot 100% be sure" argument. If you want to accuse MJ of something or even just insinuate things about him YOU have the burden of proof and not those who believe in his innocence. "We cannot 100% be sure of the opposite" is not good enough because you can say that about anyone in the world. That you personally have an issue with him holding hands with children is also not good enough. If you actually know the Arvizo case, like you claim, then you would know that there was nothing behind that hand holding. MJ hasn't even met that kid for two years before that. So if you know that then I don't know why you hold that against him.
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Okey I understand you and if you understand my text like you did I totally agree with you on every point.

Hopefully you know now after reading my correction (deleted my old post and corrected it) what I really meant.

For example with the line even the nicest and charming person can be a criminal I meant the following:
I didn't mean michael at all. I didn't meant that you believe that he was innocent because of facts. I didn't mean him at all. I meant that even though you know a person personally and he looks like the perfect guy in every point there's a chance that this guy is the complete difference of it. And that's what I meant. I wanted to say that even about a person you know you cannot say that he or she has no mistakes. Because oftentimes people don't show their mistakes
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

And after all that was the question of the thread??? Did he have any faults at all? And I answered with "We can't know!" Or I cannot be 100% sure that he didn't have that mistake I pointed out. That was my answer. And regarding to that no I don't believe he had that mistake I talked about but I cannot be 100 % sure?

So after all all humans have mistakes and how can we say anything about someone else? especially someone we didn't know personally


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Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

and can we all just quit that with:

Yeah I did a mistake by using a bad example? I'm also human.

But I meant something else and I hope you got now what I meant. I believe he was innocent and that's it okey? just wanted to say he was someone I didn't know personally so I can't answer that question if he had any faults. And also I wanted to say that even if I knew him I couldn't answer it.


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Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

respect77 said:
^ By your logic I will just assume that YOU have a sexual interest in children. After all we do not need anything else by your logic, just assumptions about someone based on nothing else than "we cannot be 100% sure of the opposite".
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respect77 said:
Then you went on to basically say "even if he didn't do anything we cannot 100% be sure he didn't have a sexual desire for children". WTF? Sorry but accusing someone of pedophilia is a serious thing, so I am not going to take this lightly, even if you are "just" insinuating things by this lazy "cannot 100% be sure" argument. If you want to accuse MJ of something or even just insinuate things about him YOU have the burden of proof and not those who believe in his innocence.
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You took the words straight of my mouth, Respect77.

I think it is one thing to find some of Michael's behaviour inappropriate, but another thing all together to believe he is guilty of child molestation as a result, which might I reinforce is an extremely serious accusation to make.

I admit that I personally find some of Michael's behaviour with children to be somewhat inappropriate, even though I know there was nothing behind it. I just personally don't approve of him holding hands with an unrelated child, or allowing unrelated children to sleep in his bedroom with him. If I found out a random male was doing this (especially the last one), yes it could likely raise questions for me on that person's behaviour. I wouldn't immediately jump to the serious accusation of child molestation, but I would find it unusual and question it.

And I did just that many years back with Michael Jackson. The thing with Michael Jackson, is that there are mountains and mountains of evidence proving he is innocent, that it should squash any questions you might have on it. I am highly confident in that fact that Michael Jackson was innocent as a result of this and his behaviour no longer raises any questions I might have towards his relationships with children.

You claim yourself that you have read a lot of this research but still go "you can never know".With all due respect, what a load of crap. Like Respect said, you could effectively use that excuse for anyone on any crime ever (and you could still apply that logic to the "sides of people you never knew").
 
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Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

I think Michael had many faults.
He was naive at times.
Sometimes wasn't always honest.
Poor judgement.
I think much of this stems from his childhood.

I don't think he was a pedophile or child molestor as some say, but he was clearly in the wrong for allowing kids to share his bed. Which is what I mean by poor judgement.

Despite all this, he was a man filled with love, a musical genius, and a great humanitarian and for this I remember him.
 
I just personally don't approve of him holding hands with an unrelated child
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Did Michael really take Gavins hand or was it Gavin who took Michael´s hand? Instructed by his mother.
You can see that Gavin was leaning against him.If Michael thought a child wanted to hold his hand I don´t think he had said no
 
MIST;4182618 said:
Did Michael really take Gavins hand or was it Gavin who took Michael´s hand? Instructed by his mother.
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Not sure. Quickly revisited the footage and it cuts back into the scene with them already holding.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Anyone giving him crap about not being honest all the time, you have no right. Who is 100% truthful always? Nobody, quoting Dr. Gregory House: "everybody lies!"


Michael wasn't a compulsive liar, he was mostly frank about the important things.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Slave To The Rhythm said:
and even after hours and hours of research... (yeah I know you will say I did wrong Research...) I believe he was innocent but I could never say he was 100% innocent (regarding to that he could have had an interest in children but never did something bad)
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Don't you think if sexual attraction to boys would be on someone's mind then sooner or later he would express just that
in words not just actions? MJ was one of the most scrutinized man on Earth for decades. Hundreds of people had direct contract with him including phone contact, letters, emails, notes. He wrote hundreds of lyrics, poems and a book. He gave dozens of interviews ever since he was a young teen. He was investigated by multiple agencies for years.

So how come noone ever found anything where he expressed attraction toward boys
but there are several examples where he expressed attraction toward girls and women?
Where are the incriminating phone calls, letters, notes, lyrics, emails anything?
There's just nothing.

In fact MJ never talked about boys specifically he always talked about babies and children.

Another thing which is a dead giveaway is him constantly urging others to love and care about children
and gushing over those who did it. Like when he said Lisa was so sweet she went with him to those children hospitals
and "look at Lady Diana she's so sweet with all those babies that's something you cannot fake."

Pedophiles may say they love and care about children but they are not crazy about adults who love and care about children.
And MJ really loved adults who did that. Only someone who genuinely cares about kids would do that.
 
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Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

redfrog said:
Don't you think if sexual attraction to boys would be on someone's mind then sooner or later he would express just that
in words not just actions? MJ was one of the most scrutinized man on Earth for decades. Hundreds of people had direct contract with him including phone contact, letters, emails, notes. He wrote hundreds of lyrics, poems and a book. He gave dozens of interviews ever since he was a young teen. He was investigated by multiple agencies for years.

So how come noone ever found anything where he expressed attraction toward boys
but there are several examples where he expressed attraction toward girls and women?
Where are the incriminating phone calls, letters, notes, lyrics, emails anything?
There's just nothing.

In fact MJ never talked about boys specifically he always talked about babies and children.

Another thing which is a dead giveaway is him constantly urging others to love and care about children
and gushing over those who did it. Like when he said Lisa was so sweet she went with him to those children hospitals
and "look at Lady Diana she's so sweet with all those babies that's something you cannot fake."

Pedophiles may say they love and care about children but they are not crazy about adults who love and care about children.
And MJ really loved adults who did that. Only someone who genuinely cares about kids would do that.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Michael's love of children wouldn't have been questioned half as much if at all had he been a woman.
The media probably would have went much easier on him even after the allegations hit had he been a woman.
Sad, but true.

Just yesterday on the news a female high school teacher that had sex with her teenaged student was called beautiful whilst being described.
I was disgusted.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Pink Diamond Princess said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Michael's love of children wouldn't have been questioned half as much if at all had he been a woman.
The media probably would have went much easier on him even after the allegations hit had he been a woman.
Sad, but true.
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Very true. Lady Diana could have kids on her lap, kiss them cuddle them and it was said to be a wonderful thing.
when she was asked why she stopped wearing a hat she said "you cannot cuddle a child in a hat"

Imagine what MJ had got if he said those words.

there is Avicii's Wake me up video where a little girl is sharing a bed with a woman. Noone says it's perverted.
Replace the woman with a guy and guess what the reaction would be.

book2.jpg
 
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Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

A human being have faults??? Of course not??
 
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Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Michael had everything to make him the largest target... He was a man, black man, much of his life was unknown, largest star in the world, 'pretty boy' features, changing features, his shyness, the 'oddities of having non domestic pets and carrying them around.. His biggest downfall was his brilliance! All the PR In the the 80s was used against him in the biggest ways
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

This is true. A woman who did some of the things Michael did would not have been criticized as severely.
Nevertheless, an adult who allows children to sleep in their bed, should raise some eyebrows, especially one who has the suspicions of allegations of being a child molester.

Personally, I don't see sufficient evidence that could ever prove that Michael had molested children. I do see that Michael exercised poor judgement and had equally poor character traits going on. Michael or not, you do not stay in a room alone with a child, over an extended amount of time.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

read the court transcripts from the allegations from 2003-2005... You'll KNOW Michael was innocent! One thing I will admit is Michael let his rebellious/stubborn side keep things looking ambiguous to the public.. So he did not help the perception in that regard. That did not make him a predator
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Of course Michael wasn't perfect, who is? We all see perfection in a different way. Some may have thought that he was perfect but they didn't live with him 24 hours a day so would not know how he actually was in different situations. He himself would never profess to be being perfect as he always wanted to do better. With regards to the children comments, I agree with Michael, I don't think that way. I have let my partners children sleep in the same bed as me and I did get criticized for it but whatever was being insinuated wasn't ever in my mind it was in the mind of others who obviously have those kind of thoughts but I don't. Paedophiles don't advertise the fact they sleep with children!
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

This thread has a catch 22 because you can state that he has flaws but if you name them you will be a 'hater' or being disrespectful.. sooo!! you have to simply go with "yes he had flaws"
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

This answer comes hopefully not with the fear of moderators and fans turning on me.

I feel Michael was not very intelligent or well read, at least before the 1990s. This is because of several factors, one being that his family were of sub high school level education, Joseph dropped out at 15 or 16 and Katherine nearly finished school, but how many working class Blacks went to University then (1940s - 1960s). None of his brothers went and their education was disrupted from 1970 onwards due to fame.

Yes the kids had Rosie Fine, but I hardly think they got a full education (Yet apparently Michael did well in 8th and 9th at Hollywood High) and we never knew if he graduated (Michael would have been in the class of 1976 or 1977) - even Prince finished high school.
The second point being, that his conscience songs were generalised rather than specific as his knowledge of current events was limited, also he may have been advised by producers and other people about issues (Eg, Quincy, Bruce Swedien). Thirdly when you are surrounding yourself with children all the time, you are not absorbing intellectual prowess or deeper knowledge, you are behaving like a child and using a childs knowledge.
Forthly, he had gaffs like referring to OPEC as a denture sealant, and the Gulf War being in the Gulf of Mexico.

Great performer, singer and humanitarian, but intellectual - oh hell naw! Then again intelligence is not the be all and end all of everything. It has been a liability for me (Intelligence of course does not extend to typos on forum posts. I am not confident on keyboards)
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

^^^I disagree. Michael was very intelligent, he was known to be a voracious reader of history, the arts, medical books, spiritual books, not to mention The Wall Street Journal and other respected publications.

Graduating high school or college does not mean someone has knowledge or intelligence. Lots of dumb a$$ people walk this Earth with fancy degrees. Michael was a genius in his way, in a way probably most people will never comprehend. Granted his spelling left something to be desired, lol, but again, that's not a true gauge of intelligence.

He was childlike in heart and spirit, but I believe mentally he was brilliant. Perhaps just a type of brilliance one doesn't necessarily associate with level of education.

JMHO
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

redfrog said:
Don't you think if sexual attraction to boys would be on someone's mind then sooner or later he would express just that
in words not just actions? MJ was one of the most scrutinized man on Earth for decades. Hundreds of people had direct contract with him including phone contact, letters, emails, notes. He wrote hundreds of lyrics, poems and a book. He gave dozens of interviews ever since he was a young teen. He was investigated by multiple agencies for years.

So how come noone ever found anything where he expressed attraction toward boys
but there are several examples where he expressed attraction toward girls and women?
Where are the incriminating phone calls, letters, notes, lyrics, emails anything?
There's just nothing.

In fact MJ never talked about boys specifically he always talked about babies and children.

Another thing which is a dead giveaway is him constantly urging others to love and care about children
and gushing over those who did it. Like when he said Lisa was so sweet she went with him to those children hospitals
and "look at Lady Diana she's so sweet with all those babies that's something you cannot fake."

Pedophiles may say they love and care about children but they are not crazy about adults who love and care about children.
And MJ really loved adults who did that. Only someone who genuinely cares about kids would do that.
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A lack of evidence doesn't equate to innocence. Personally, I believe Michael is innocent. However, I can't act as if his behavior was to be praised and not criticized. To answer the question of the thread, he defiantly had faults. While I doubt he was a pedophile, he was most certainty naive. Loving children means establishing boundaries. Children that aren't yours shouldn't be in the bedroom, let alone, bed, as another unrelated adult.
Most likely, the accusers families spotted the trait in Michael, and used it for a gain. It's sad. They ruined an innocent man. But you have to live and learn.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

chris123678 said:
A lack of evidence doesn't equate to innocence. Personally, I believe Michael is innocent. However, I can't act as if his behavior was to be praised and not criticized. To answer the question of the thread, he defiantly had faults. While I doubt he was a pedophile, he was most certainty naive. Loving children means establishing boundaries. Children that aren't yours shouldn't be in the bedroom, let alone, bed, as another unrelated adult.
Most likely, the accusers families spotted the trait in Michael, and used it for a gain. It's sad. They ruined an innocent man. But you have to live and learn.
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A very eloquent way of putting it. Too many mj fans try to justify what mj did but at the end of the day some of the things that happened, while not criminal, were incredibly stupid. The events leading up to 93 were bad enough and a generous person could say it was naivety, but the events that allowed the arvizos to make allegations credible enough for a trial were simply indefensible imo.

I am certain mj was not guilty but he really should have learned after 93. A person must consider others perception of what they do and that's particularly important for a celebrity.
 
Did MJ have ANY faults?

The Arvizos allegations were all over the place.
The only reason they brought Michael to court was because of Sneddon.

I doubt any other district attorney would have brought them to court.
 
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Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Miel said:
The Arvizos allegations were all over the place.
The only reason they brought Michael to court was because of Sneddon.

I doubt any other district attorney would have brought them to court.
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I don't think the decision was made by sneddon in isolation. Other people had to consider the case credible enough to go to trial. In 93 sneddon tried to take his case to court but 2 grand juries refused.
 
I feel like his only fault was that he didn't see how beautiful he was :heart:

cc3bda309081a127ffecadd245419449--jackson-family-michael-jackson.jpg
 
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