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intresting comment by judge. its now a murder investigation?

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Victoria83 said:
I think this is EXACTLY what happened. This is not the I.U. and I won't haul out the data and links, but yes, I do believe this is likely. (And THAT is why the security tapes are missing.) If this is likely, then it's also likely that Murray will eventually sing like a canary. I'm still hoping for that. Murray had no real motive that we know of, and others. . . .did.

Actually, I'll add to this. It might have been a drip just for rehydration, but then someone else added the propofol and Michael didn't have time to react. Hence, Nurse Lee's turning the tide toward propofol? She came out of absolutely nowhere, and vanished into. . nowhere. Was she paid, in addition to being paid for being on the talk-shows? Don't know. I'm just hoping for Murray to spill
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mj asked doctor adams , and doctor metzeger for propofol in march and early april . and murray started buying propofol since may 12 . so please don't go there and claim mj was not aware he was injected with propofol . a hair sample would have told the coroner for how long mj was taking propofol .
at this point murray might say he left the house and someone else injcted mj with lethal doses of propofol and lorazepam , because once the time of death is known his ass is nailed big time . that does not make him trustful at all .
HE KIILED MJ AND NO ONE ELSE. he knew lorazepam will be found the cause of death incase no one noticed propofol , only the person who injected it knew that
 
Soundmind said:
well, I have a feeling sirena's theory is murray's only defense at the moment , but ofcourse he has to admit he left the house or the room for more than just two minutes .

I feel there was a reason why murray said MJ was always awake during the night, and in the morning and propofol was only given at 10.40 am . he was seen outside that room before that particular time.
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Either way, whether Murray lies & says he was with MJ the entire night - OR says "I left the premises and it must've been someone else" implicates him bigtime.

What Murray needs to do is to COME CLEAN and tell the truth. at least the judge & DA presiding the case would give him some leniency if he told exactly and truthfully what happened.
 
Soundmind said:
mj asked doctor adams , and doctor metzeger for propofol in march and early april . and murray started buying propofol since may 12 . so please don't go there and claim mj was not aware he was injected with propofol . a hair sample would have told the coroner for how long mj was taking propofol .
at this point murray might say he left the house and someone else injcted mj with lethal doses of propofol and lorazepam , because once the time of death is known his ass is nailed big time . that does not make him trustful at all .
HE KIILED MJ AND NO ONE ELSE. he knew lorazepam will be found the cause of death incase no one noticed propofol , only the person who injected it knew that
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Regarding hair samples, prolongated use of propofol use (or abuse) can be clearly detected in a certain section of the brain - which is why the autopsy took so long.

MJ came out CLEAN. Healthy. Not an addict of any sort of anything.

So the acute intoxication as the autopsy report says is the cause of death - had to be a sudden intake of propofol that same night.
 
no , the brain would not reveal anything regarding propofol abuse or even addiction. a chronic use of propofol would be detected through hair samples . and the amounts given before his death would be determined through his urine . read the male nurse case i posted , they know for how many hours he was given propofol the night he died from his urine. but the final dose , the one which killed him would be hard to determine because it disappeared very rapidly from his blood.
 
Soundmind said:
mj asked doctor adams , and doctor metzeger for propofol in march and early april . and murray started buying propofol since may 12 . so please don't go there and claim mj was not aware he was injected with propofol . a hair sample would have told the coroner for how long mj was taking propofol .
at this point murray might say he left the house and someone else injcted mj with lethal doses of propofol and lorazepam , because once the time of death is known his ass is nailed big time . that does not make him trustful at all .
HE KIILED MJ AND NO ONE ELSE. he knew lorazepam will be found the cause of death incase no one noticed propofol , only the person who injected it knew that
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We have NO idea what Michael actually said, or who he asked for what, or if he took propofol for SIX WEEKS, or not since the HIStory tour. We have NO idea, and he is not here to tell us.

It now is seeming extremely unlikely that "Murray killed MJ and no one else." I've already given my reasons earlier in the thread. In a nutshell, if this was simple negligence, Murray would have been arrested already. If it was only Murray, then why did the Security tapes go missing? (they really did). And much, much more.

Yes, a hair-sample would have revealed longer-term use. There have been NO reports about a hair-sample analysis leaked, whatsoever.

I just want to know what is TRUE, and if Murray left the house and it was someone else, then Michael's children, the family, his friends, and fans, deserve to KNOW. I think the LAPD know much more than they have been saying. There have been almost NO leaks in this long investigation, and we already know that others are being investigated. I hope the net is as wide as it needs to be.
 
the day I believe MJ conspired to abduct Janet Arvizos and her "lovely kids" in a hot air balloon will be the day I believe Murra, Metzeger, Adams, Lee, Alvares, the paramedics, the coroner, AEG, Kai , the previous chef...etc conspired to kill MJ .
 
Soundmind said:
the day I believe MJ conspired to abduct Janet Arvizos and her "lovely kids" in a hot air balloon will be the day I believe Murra, Metzeger, Adams, Lee, Alvares, the paramedics, the coroner, AEG, Kai , the previous chef...etc conspired to kill MJ .
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I don't think ANYONE is saying people from the list you gave were conspiring to kill Michael (with maybe one notable exception?). I'm certainly not saying that. . .

I think this thread has probably run it's course. To find out about facts and theories, I'd suggest everyone, if you want, read the material in the Investigative Unit and post with that background info in mind.

It will be what it will be.

Peace,

Vic
 
Soundmind said:
"facts" is the only thing missing from IU threads .
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In the end, I wonder why you, and some others, are so invested in NOT wanting to know what really happened to Michael? There are those in the I.U. on this and other boards, who have spent many hundreds of hours looking at everything, with great care. It would probably also take many hundreds of hours to read all that and come up to speed, for those who choose to.

The greatest help in finding out the truth about why Michael suddenly is not with us anymore, has been fans. The greatest obstacle, has been FANS.

I think Michael and his children, deserve no less than the truth, whatever that may turn out to be, and open-minds are truly the key to that. . .with fans, with the LAPD, and whatever private investigators the family may have hired.

Doesn't matter what you or anyone thinks of the Follower Fans.

They thought Michael might die. Michael died. This was either random, or it was not.

I'm out of the thread, and good luck to you, whatever might come to pass. This is NOT over.

Vic
 
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of all people who post I'm the last one to be accused of not searching before I post . I always back up whatever i say with medical evidence , those who spent "hundreds of hours" investigating , did provide no evidence whatever of any of their claims . NOTHING AT ALL .

vic you were a member during the trial and a great one no one can deny that but WE WERE HERE ALSO .

we are open to believe there is a conspiracy to kill MJ, but I need evidence , don't tell me there is evidence go and search for it , I did read everything posted since MJ died , you can say that to others but not me . nothing revealed support any of your theories .

post evidence real evidence and I'm the first to believe it you supported Beachlover when you felt he was attacking everyone's credibility and once you felt he did not believe there was a conspiracy to kill mj , mj might very well moved his hand and the IV drop run faster , you changed your mind about him/her .

we are discussing facts , evidence presented in court documenst and quotes that can be traced , but theories with no evidence to back them are really not going to change our minds at all .
 
riviera1992 said:
Don't bother. it's all hogwash. She can't even get the name of the place right. She's says Neverland.
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Nancy Grace.. yea I'm not fond of her anyway. But when I asked for info. about 'The Missing Tapes' I thought that there were something new on this information. I thank you (Victoria) for the link(s) and all the others that you all have posted,I re-read them. I was hoping that there had been new information with this. If only where ever these tapes/videos may be..if only they was not destroyed.
 
sloride said:
I've been dwelling on this for the past hour and there is no right away around this. If its manslaughter we'll be angry that its not a murder charge. If its murder then it means that the police believe Michael was murdered, which is going to leave us all devastated. And if he walks then the anger all of us will display will be immense. No matter what happens to Murray in all situations it isn't going to bring Michael back and I would give anything to have our dear Michael back. Seeing Murray behind bars will only be a tiny consolation for us. We will never be healed-Michael is no longer here. We're always going to have that massive hole in our hearts until the day we pass.
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Agreed, I want him back, but sadly that's not going to happen.
I want C.M. TO ROT IN JAIL!!
 
Victoria83 said:
I think an "intentional killing without premeditation" might be one that arises suddenly during a fit of rage? Suppose someone goes to a bar with no intention of harming anyone, but then is horribly insulted by someone and "goes off on them" resulting in their death? (as in a huge anger-management problem?) The intention was not "premeditated," but sudden?

It has to do with timing and preparation? If someone cold-bloodedly intends to kill someone, they might get a weapon and plan an escape route, etc. That would show both malice and premeditation. Alternatively, if a person is afflicted with road-rage they might in a moment try to kill someone, but there was no planning involved.
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yeah i think its that. the laws are pretty contridicting cause by general rule murder involves intent and planning. over here killing someone basically by accident ie u have a fight with them they fall over and bang their head and die is classed as manslaughter because u didnt intend to kill them. the defintion of murder is basically premeditation and intent by the general standard.thats what make is so more serious than lesser charges
 
Soundmind said:
"facts" is the only thing missing from IU threads .
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Facts are not a requirement to post in the MJJC Investigative Unit Thread.

We post links to articles( many times) as we give our THEORIES and SPECULATION.

In reading and knowing what the rules are to post in that section, we follow.
 
well, I have a feeling sirena's theory is murray's only defense at the moment , but ofcourse he has to admit he left the house or the room for more than just two minutes .
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well i hope it is because its not logical at all frankly its like saying the dog ate my homework. whos hes gonna accuse of killing mj. alberto. the chief. anyone else who was in the house and the motive? the police have security tapes from the drive way so itwill show if murray left. personally i think hell stick to his toliet break story and i foound him at 12 instead of 11 and was on the phone.thats the lesser of two evils for him.certainly better than i left the house for a few hours.

Doesn't matter what you or anyone thinks of the Follower Fans.

They thought Michael might die. Michael died. This was either random, or it was not.
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thats because he was so skinny and stressed.they were worried about his health.

we are open to believe there is a conspiracy to kill MJ, but I need evidence , don't tell me there is evidence go and search for it , I did read everything posted since MJ died , you can say that to others but not me . nothing revealed support any of your theories .
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e are discussing facts , evidence presented in court documenst and quotes that can be traced , but theories with no evidence to back them are really not going to change our minds at all .
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yeap i have to agree with soundmind. its about the facts not theories
 
It is simply not appropriate to engage in deep-level discussions about "investigations," here in this thread, in this forum of a public board. I will not be posting here: detailed notes, links, transcripts, video interviews, charts, or timelines. When I have posted facts in this thread they have only given rise to requests for more, and more, and posting that material is simply not appropriate here. . . for a number of reasons that should be obvious?

I do expect a level of respect and understanding that much work has been done, however. . . if for no other reason than I'd hope there would be some trust that this work is similar in quality to the work/writing done during the trial. Why would it NOT be done as extensively as that?

I posted the material on the differences in terminology of California "homicide/murder" law because it relates to the initial post, and the thinking there is that this could be discussed/researched further in this thread as being a significant difference in terminology, and a significant difference between California law and the rest of U.S. law on this subject. Either folks want to look into that more deeply (other cases and precedents) or they do not. It's ok, whatever people may choose, but I'd suggest approaching the topic from a standpoint of knowledge. The facts about the law are out there to find, but might take some digging.

If anyone wants to delve deeply into investigations, most major MJ boards have an "investigative unit" type of forum, or you can join one of the many private boards engaged in investigations. I would suggest reading the material first, though. There are many facts about the histories of individual people, about which person knew which other person or is related by marriage, or mutual busines, or what? There is info about timelines, and early and late news reports (and what "stuck" in the news, and what vanished), with links, and many other things. Those who really want to explore in depth the circumstances surrounding Michael's death surely can find the resources out there to do so. Those who do not want to do this work . . . well, that's fine. . . but please have some respect for those who do and who have been engaged with this since June 26. That's all I'm really asking for here... . a little respect.

I hope someone closes this thread soon. . . . . .
 
Victoria83 said:
I

I hope someone closes this thread soon. . . . . .
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I was under the impression that you had to be a "Gold" member to discuss in the investigative forum, but I just saw not too long ago that it's open again to all members.

I don't think there's a need to call for a closing of this thread. Everybody's been very well behaved & we are discussing things amicably & civilly.

Please understand that I do think we need to discuss this openly and respectfully.
 
Sirena said:
I was under the impression that you had to be a "Gold" member to discuss in the investigative forum, but I just saw not too long ago that it's open again to all members.
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The "gold membership" has been discontinued. The I.U. is again open to everyone, but I caution everyone wishing to post there to please read the guidelines first, as they are different from the rest of the board.

Sirena said:
I don't think there's a need to call for a closing of this thread. Everybody's been very well behaved & we are discussing things amicably & civilly
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That has not been my impression. At the very least, since some find the idea of "investigations" upsetting, and now that the I.U. is open again, I think that is the best place for this thread, now. . . given the way it's developed. Not my call, though. (thankfully)

Additionally, there is material that is simply too sensitive to post. Suppose at least some aspects of the "investigations" are RIGHT? There are literally thousands of people who read here, but do not post. I'm sure some are the "parties in question," or staff from their attorneys' offices, or PR firms. And journalists. I will not be posting ANY sensitive material on an open board. That is not the same thing as "not having facts;" it's simply common-sense.
 
Victoria83 said:
The "gold membership" has been discontinued. The I.U. is again open to everyone, but I caution everyone wishing to post there to please read the guidelines first, as they are different from the rest of the board.
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Will do - I have set some time to catch up & read. Thanks.

That has not been my impression. At the very least, since some find the idea of "investigations" upsetting, and now that the I.U. is open again, I think that is the best place for this thread, now. . . given the way it's developed. Not my call, though. (thankfully)

Additionally, there is material that is simply too sensitive to post. Suppose at least some aspects of the "investigations" are RIGHT? There are literally thousands of people who read here, but do not post. I'm sure some are the "parties in question," or staff from their attorneys' offices, or PR firms. And journalists. I will not be posting ANY sensitive material on an open board. That is not the same thing as "not having facts;" it's simply common-sense.
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Ok, playing devil's advocate here, what is to stop a so-called journalist, attorney staffer or PR firm to become a private member and read through posts like the rest of us?

Any of these people can create a username & email and access the IU forum. I fail to see what the difference is between public thread & registered user thread. If they want the info, they are gonna get it no matter what. It's not like the forum conducts background checks before accepting a user to the forum.

Is it that the board is worried about legal implications? I don't see how it will, given that the First Amendment to the US Constitution backs the forum. Now if in the event, a discussed party wants to say that it's slander or defamation of character, then the ACLU will be all over this and shut that person down. It's Freedom of Speech.

HOWEVER, I do understand your point in that it is very sensitive info & should be discussed in another area. Like if there was a big party in my house & suddenly, someone wanted to discuss something personal, they wouldn't do it in the middle of the dancefloor with a megaphone.

I guess I'm on the fence with this.
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elusive moonwalker said:
well i hope it is because its not logical at all frankly its like saying the dog ate my homework. whos hes gonna accuse of killing mj. alberto. the chief. anyone else who was in the house and the motive? the police have security tapes from the drive way so itwill show if murray left. personally i think hell stick to his toliet break story and i foound him at 12 instead of 11 and was on the phone.thats the lesser of two evils for him.certainly better than i left the house for a few hours.
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elusive darling , he can't stick to his toilet story anymore , because the coroner was most probably able to determine MJ was dead before Murray left to relieve himself for 2 minutes . It is no longer an explanation . He will say either MJ overdose himslef , then we will have to wait for the amounts of propofol in his body to see whether he stand a chance in a court of law , or he will claim , some people killed MJ and framed him , DOUBT throw the doubt eventhough he would not be able to prove anything , not that he is required to prove anything in the first place .


and the guy said I gave propofol at 10.40 am that morning FOR A REASON , what was the reason ?
 
Sirena said:
Ok, playing devil's advocate here, what is to stop a so-called journalist, attorney staffer or PR firm to become a private member and read through posts like the rest of us?
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There is really nothing that prevents that, unless the person begins to post in an offensive way, or is already known to staff.

Sirena said:
Any of these people can create a username & email and access the IU forum. I fail to see what the difference is between public thread & registered user thread. If they want the info, they are gonna get it no matter what. It's not like the forum conducts background checks before accepting a user to the forum.
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Just a little less noticeable in the I.U., but the main thing is that some members find "investigations" upsetting and are not as likely to read threads in the I.U. I.e. threads are not "in your face" there, as they can be in G.D.

Sirena said:
Is it that the board is worried about legal implications? I don't see how it will, given that the First Amendment to the US Constitution backs the forum. Now if in the event, a discussed party wants to say that it's slander or defamation of character, then the ACLU will be all over this and shut that person down. It's Freedom of Speech.
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I'm not staff anymore, and can't answer in any official capacity. This is just my own opinion. MJJC does have a disclaimer stating that the board is not responsible for the views of individual members. In terms of "Freedom of Speech," that is both true and not true here. Even though most anyone can apply for membership, there are restrictions to free speech here, just as there are in movies that are rated PG-13 or Adult, or whatever. (An "adult" film cannot advertise itself as PG-13, legally?) This is a PG-13 board, for example, and in that sense there are restrictions in language and content. One must agree to the rules of the board to be a member; the rules include respectful discourse, no name-calling, trolling, etc. As far as defamation is concerned, I don't think that issue has come up, but if it did it would be a question of the individual poster, and not MJJC.

Sirena said:
HOWEVER, I do understand your point in that it is very sensitive info & should be discussed in another area. Like if there was a big party in my house & suddenly, someone wanted to discuss something personal, they wouldn't do it in the middle of the dancefloor with a megaphone.

I guess I'm on the fence with this.
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I do not discuss investigations in any depth -- anywhere on this board.
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...The easiest way to describe the differences between murder and homicide is that homicide is the killing of another human being, while murder requires the intent to kill another human being....
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This post upthread with this quote is not correct (as one might expect from Associated Content). The difference can't be simplified this far. Murray's story, as he told it, could be enough for a 2nd degree murder charge. Or he could get off. Or get his wrist slapped. I suspect LA is going for murder, thus the long delay, and I'm glad. But the word "murder" does not mean someone deliberately killed MJ. See below (bold italics are mine):

Jackson: When patient death is murder.
Nurse Anesthetist (CRNA) Forums
7/28/2009

...Homicide is the killing of another human being. All murder is homicide, but not all homicide is murder, or even criminal. In California, like many states, there exits two categories of unlawful killing of another human being: Murder and manslaughter. each of these also has two types (disregarding vehicular manslaughter crimes for the sake of the discussion):
First Degree Murder
Second Degree Murder
Voluntary Manslaughter
Involuntary Manslaughter

Each of these is distinguished by the INTENT of the actor when carrying out the crime, certain mitigating circumstances, and the possible sentence. Let's start with murder. (Say it muuuurddarr)

California Penal Code: 187. (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.

188. Such malice may be express or implied. It is express when there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a fellow creature. It is implied, when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.
189. All murder which is perpetrated by means of a destructive device or explosive(guns, bombs, poison, etc.)lying in wait, torture, willful, deliberate,and premeditated killing, or which is committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, arson, rape, carjacking, robbery,burglary, mayhem, kidnapping, train wrecking,etc.is murder of the first degree.
All other kinds of murders are of the second degree.

So, 1st degree is pretty obvious. I set out to kill someone=1st degree. 2nd degree however includes circumstances which show an 'abandoned or malignant heart'. Another definition is 'a disregard for human life'. Shooting a gun in the direction of a school could result in a 2nd degree murder charge. Hooking someone up to a propofol drip without monitors and then taking a nap might also meet the definition....
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This is why we're seeing drunk drivers being charged with 2nd degree murder. So while the warrant language is interesting, it provides zero new support for deliberate-murder theories.

As for the missing security tapes, every news item posted in this thread uses as its ultimate source a single National Enquirer story, J*cko Death Video Missing, including Nancy Grace, the CNN commentator. [Warning: link includes Michael's ambulance photo.] The other media coverage I found is all after this date, and usually credits the Enquirer. Which Grace didn't have the grace to do, though it's clearly the same story. Perhaps this is why the story "disappeared." Why aren't we equally excited about the other "missing item" described in this story -- the "large black suitcase that belonged to Jackson and was said to contain a secret stash of powerful drugs"? While the Enquirer sometimes gets a real scoop, when it comes to MJ they've been content to print garbage like this and the missing-nose story.

I don't think it would expose any MJJC investigation if the poster who says she remembers a CNN story about missing security tapes prior to the Enquirer story would be so kind as to just provide that link. Especially as she is repeatedly saying it's the main red flag suggesting deliberate murder.

It was my recollection that what got moved to the Investigative Unit was deliberate-murder-conspiracy discussion, especially that named names publicly. I don't understand why this thread should be closed as long as it avoids that path, and follows other board rules.

(Cue the poster who likes to hint, hint that my conspiracy skepticism means I'm a member of the Illuminati :) )
 
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My choice, for myself, is not to post investigations of substance anywhere on this board, because the material has reached such a level as that I believe it would be unwise, for obvious reasons, to post developed theories and detailed data. Others may choose to continue to post, and that's ok, too.

I don't particularly care if this thread remains open or is closed, or moved, or whatever. Some people seemed upset with it, but the judgment is for mods to make.

If one wants to do the work of investigations, that's a personal choice. Or one might choose not to. Whatever works for you.
 
Victoria - you've always been fair-minded, caring & open, and I really like that about you.

Thanks for understanding.

And please don't take it the wrong way if I disagree with you, or anyone.

We all just want the TRUTH.

Victoria83 said:
My choice, for myself, is not to post investigations of substance anywhere on this board, because the material has reached such a level as that I believe it would be unwise, for obvious reasons, to post developed theories and detailed data. Others may choose to continue to post, and that's ok, too.

I don't particularly care if this thread remains open or is closed, or moved, or whatever. Some people seemed upset with it, but the judgment is for mods to make.

If one wants to do the work of investigations, that's a personal choice. Or one might choose not to. Whatever works for you.
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Sirena said:
Victoria - you've always been fair-minded, caring & open, and I really like that about you.

Thanks for understanding.

And please don't take it the wrong way if I disagree with you, or anyone.

We all just want the TRUTH.
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Aww, thanks. I KNOW we all just want the truth. This is all taking such a long time. . . . .
 
I've searched the investigative unit forum posts, the news media mentioned (CNN, Headline News, Fox), and done a variety of other Google news searchs. I've been unable to find any reference to missing security or surveillance or CCTV video, cameras, or any related terms, that does not originate with that single July 15th National Enquirer tabloid story. A story with zero credibility.

If anyone finds something, please post it here.

Until something turns up, it seems to me that there's been a major misunderstanding here about this, one that has given much momentum to the deliberate-murder theories here.

This is important news indeed, a great relief. There's nothing preferable to me about imagining Michael in his last moments alone with a man desiring his death.
 
Soundmind said:
"facts" is the only thing missing from IU threads .
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You know, instead of criticizing the lack of facts in other members posts, perhaps it would be more productive for you to research this topic yourself and provide us all with the facts.
 
callmerose said:
You know, instead of criticizing the lack of facts in other members posts, perhaps it would be more productive for you to research this topic yourself and provide us all with the facts.
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If you have actually read any of Sound's posts, she had indeed done intensive research into this subject and possibly knows more than anyone on this forum.

She has always posted all of her facts and research on this forum for all to read, analyze, and draw their own conclusion. Her own conclusions and theories are not base on the lack of fact or theories with no basics.

So, I suggest yourself read all the 'facts' yourself from other posters before you openly criticize them.
 
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