Latest on MJJC

A film that relates to the trials...

MJLondon

Proud Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
6
Points
0
I am going to see a movie at the London Film Festival this week that is so relevant to MJ and the trials.

Read below and tell me if you feel the same:

THE HUNT is a powerful and disturbing depiction of how quickly a lie can become the truth when gossip, doubt and malice are allowed to flourish.

Following a tough divorce, 40-year-old Lucas is starting to pull his life back together again. He has a new girlfriend, a new job, and is in the process of re-establishing his relationship with his teenage son Marcus. However one passing remark threatens Lucas's newfound stability. One of the children he looks after at the nursery where he works, a little girl with a vivid imagination, tells a random lie which is impossible to ignore. Her allegation spreads like a virus, quickly acquiring the veneer of truth the more it is told. As shock turns to mistrust and then malice, it doesn't take long before this small community is in a collective state of hysteria, igniting a witch-hunt that threatens to destroy an innocent man's life.
Click to expand...

www.thelieisspreading.co.uk

Review here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/may/20/the-hunt-jagten-film-review


Remember what MJ always said: 'The more you hear something repeated, the more you believe it'.

In fact I once studied this in my Psychology A Level and some studies found that even when a story was repeated as being false, it still tended to be believed more in general!

Anyway thought this would be of interest to some other fans. Not sure when the movie is out in the UK as it's a foreign film, but I can't wait to see it.
 
Thanks for the recommendation. I will try to watch this somewhere. I always thought the MJ case reflected more on society than on Michael. It was a 21st century style witch hunt and lynch mob. It's interesting to me why people like to engage in that and why so many people rely upon what they are told to think, do etc. rather than using their own brains.
 
One element that I'm not sure is explored in the film, but which would be interesting, is the role of the media in hyping the whole thing up.

BTW went to the showing the other day, the film is awesome. It has 5 star reviews everywhere, shame about having to read subtitles but it was absolutely awesome and touching... MJ fans will relate to it.
 
Has anyone heard of the 2007 doc 'witch hunt', produced by sean penn? It's about people wrongly imprisoned for child abuse.

Executive Producer Sean Penn presents "Witch Hunt," a gripping indictment of the American justice system told through the lens of one small town. Voters in Bakersfield, California elected a tough on crime district attorney into office for more than 25 years. During his tenure he convicted dozens of innocent working class moms and dads. They went to prison, some for decades, before being exonerated. He remains in office today. This story on a micro level mirrors what the US has experienced over the last eight years. When power is allowed to exist without oversight civil rights are in jeopardy.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of some other DA.
 
Last edited:
MJLondon said:
Remember what MJ always said: 'The more you hear something repeated, the more you believe it'.
Click to expand...

Well, Goebbels said that first (about British propaganda), but yes, it's a common tactic for cheap sensationalists. And a concept that is oft drawn upon.

The film you talk about sounds interesting. Reminds me of a film called Say Uncle about an eccentric gay artist who was really close with his friend's son, and when they moved away (for the mum's work), he tried to find other kids to bond with to try and move on cuz he enjoyed their company... but his innocent intentions were quickly misconstrued by a paranoid mother who listened to media too much, and eventually she convinced all the other mothers that the bloke was indeed a pedophile even though she had no real incentive or evidence to believe so, and she started what was basically a huge witch hunt against him. Even held public protests against him. But in the end, he comes off clean and it is revealed she's the one with an unhealthy obsession (with him). So it ends well, and it has a good message.
 
MJLondon said:
One element that I'm not sure is explored in the film, but which would be interesting, is the role of the media in hyping the whole thing up.

BTW went to the showing the other day, the film is awesome. It has 5 star reviews everywhere, shame about having to read subtitles but it was absolutely awesome and touching... MJ fans will relate to it.
Click to expand...

The thing is that most of the time the media is a reflection of our society in a way.
So it will be still interesting to see this movie even if the media is not involved.
Thanks for the recommendation. :)
 
Bonnie Blue said:
Has anyone heard of the 2007 doc 'witch hunt', produced by sean penn?



Reminds me of some other DA.
Click to expand...

I've always found that interesting, considering his ex wife Madonna would call what happened to Michael in 2009 a "witch hunt", I've wondered if she was making an allusion to this film.
 
^ Yes, i imagine she would be aware of what her exhusband would be up to.

I amended my post about 'witch hunt'. I realse that the passage i quoted didn't say that the parents imprisoned were accused of child abuse, but maybe that was obvious from the context of this thread.

Here's another quote about the film. It does seem like a blueprint of what happened in santa barbara with mj and for me at least, is really important in understanding the context of what happened in 93 and 03-05. This all happened in the 1980s in bakersfield when there was a child molestation hysteria in the usa.

'Witch hunt' doesn't explain the reckless, pornographic and virtually insane nature -- and number -- of charges brought against a group of clean-record, quiet-living people. (Or why no one in the criminal justice system or the media or the general public protested.)

What "Witch Hunt" does, however, is to give these falsely imprisoned parents, many of whom served 10 to 20 years, a chance to tell their stories. Through this, the viewer is able to glimpse the arbitrary nature of the criminal justice system, and witness a group of people who seem to have miraculously and heroically found some sort of peace in the aftermath.

John Stoll's story provides the spine of the film. In the midst of a custody dispute over his son, Stoll was arrested and charged with abusing the boy, a crime he vociferously denied. In jail, he met Ricky Pitts, who had also been arrested, with his wife Marcella, for sexually molesting his children.

Pitts told Stoll what would happen next -- police would start "questioning" any child who had been to Stoll's house and soon there would be a long list of victims and crimes. Soon, Jeffrey Modahl, a single father, was arrested and accused of molesting his two young daughters, while Scott Kniffen, his wife and another couple were accused of torture, molestation and participating in sex parties with a variety of children including his own.

In all cases, the testimony of the often very young children seemed clearly coerced and was often contradictory; the prosecutors had little or no physical evidence to back up the charges. Yet all those accused in what began to seem like an epidemic of molestation were convicted and given sentences that bordered on the ludicrous -- hundreds of years for lists of crimes that were logistically if not physically impossible. Stoll and others appealed to various government officials and agencies but were repeatedly ignored or dismissed.

Only when subsequent cases began to involve charges of satanic abuse -- including one "eyewitness account" of a man killing his young son who was in fact alive and well -- did the FBI and state officials become involved. Slowly, the convictions were overturned.

"How did this happen" is the natural question and it is answered in part by moving interviews with Modahl's daughter and the boys who originally testified against Stoll. Rounded up by police, separated from the parents and interviewed for hours and hours, they were told that others had seen the abuse and that if they did not testify a bad man would go free.
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/11/entertainment/et-witchhunt11
Click to expand...

That last bit is v familiar.
 
Last edited:
Yes, MIST, I was going to bring up "The Children's Hour" too. An accusation is made by a lying child against two teachers who run a boarding school and it destroys their lives and careers. I first saw this a couple of years ago and, uh, it's painful. What they are accused of isn't the same, but the reactions nearly are (i mean, minus legal action). It's so sad when all the children are taken away and the lingering doubts can't be vanquished. I was just crying :( You can find the full film "The Children's Hour" on youtube, btw.
 
Last edited:
This thread is very insightful. Maybe one day there will be a film showing how all these situations as stated above played out in the Michael case. That would surely get many minds thinking.
 
Bonnie Blue;3728984 said:
That last bit is v familiar.
Click to expand...

Yep. Jason Francia!

Det. Neglia: Okay, but what I am getting at is that maybe I am not being obvious enough. What I am saying is maybe he put his hands someplace on you where he shouldn’t have. Maybe he put his hands on you someplace that made you feel uncomfortable. And that’s why you are not remembering. It's like there is a little bit of "Oh, I can't remember that guy's name and I don't remember his last name, and I just don' remember that. No I don't want to remember that, no I can't remember." It’s a little of bit of a different kind of not remembering, one is because you are choosing not to, and one is that you just can’t call back the uh, the event. And I think of what you doing is tickling and all this stuff, is trying forcing yourself not to remember. And you also kind of got to the one where you're saying that fourth time at the party you said something like, "That was the time." What time was it Jason: What was the time?“
Click to expand...

“Det. Neglia: I realize how hard this is. I realize how painful it is to think of these things you tried so hard not to think about but you are doing fine. And you are also helping the kid that he is bothering now.
Jason Francia: What do you mean he’s bothering?
Det. Birchim: He’s doing the same thing.
Jason Francia: Macaulay Culkin.
Det. Neglia: Only he’s getting a lot more into it. Like your mother pulled you out of there. Macaulay’s mother is not going to pull him out of there. They are feeding him.
Det. Birchim: He’s doing worse stuff.
Det. Neglia: It’s much worse with him.”
Click to expand...

About Corey Feldman:

“Det. Neglia: He’s a junkie now, he gets arrested, he doesn’t act or anything. He gets high. He packs his nose with cocaine and he’s going to die by the time he is 22 years old.
Jason Francia: How old is he?
Det. Neglia: About 21. But that’s the kind of life he is living, and it’s got to do with being exposed to people like this, and having nobody to protect them and to take them out.
Det. Birchim: Like you had your mom.
Det. Neglia: Like your mom pulled you out, and you’re, you’re candid, and you’re (sic) honesty with us is going to help us. To pull the next kid out, it might even be too late for Macauly (sic) already. But these kids that he’s traveling with are on tour right now. Maybe we can pull them out of it… “
Click to expand...
 
Bonnie Blue said:
Has anyone heard of the 2007 doc 'witch hunt', produced by sean penn? It's about people wrongly imprisoned for child abuse.



Reminds me of some other DA.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bonnie. I found it on YouTube. This is part 1 of 7. I'm definitely gonna watch it! I hope the day will come when society and the media will be able to reflect on Michael's case in an honest way.

 
^ Great find, respect, didn't think of looking on youtube. Will watch later. It really is the equivalent of the witch trials in historical times. The uk has had it's own share of child abuse hysteria with children separated from their parents on controversial evidence.
 
I watched it.

It's interesting to see how easy it was for the prosecutors to get children to lie about it. Growing up they admitted it never happened and they were coerced by the police into saying things. So much about the myth that "children do not lie about things like this". This was also the mantra of the DA and police in this docu. I remember some media claimed this in Michael's case as well.

The prosecution did this in Michael's case as well: trying to coerce kids into corroborating Chandler's claims. They interrogated like 40-60 kids, but the only one they could come up with was Jason Francia. And as it came out in 2005 his interrogation in 1993-94 was the textbook example of improper police questioning, the officers totally leading him to what they wanted to hear from him, even though he initially denied anything happened.

Based on this docu I can say it's a "miracle" the police could not coerce more kids into it, as it seems to me it's actually not that difficult. But even when the police engaged in such improper questioning methods in Michael's case as well, they could not come up with more alleged victims!

In part 3: "They just changed dates, changed charges..."

How familiar.


Of course, there are differences too: Michael was never convicted, but these people were. In Michael's case the media and money played a big role for why people made allegations against him, here money did not seem to be a factor. It was more the DA's over-zeal. Of course, that was present in Michael's case as well.

The sad thing is that people who have ever been accused of child molestation will wear it as a stigma for the rest of their lives. These guys got cleared but still could not land a job in that county after getting out of prison. At least they could move on to another county. But Michael unfortunately got stigmatized in front of the whole world.
 
Very sad. I would like to hear from these guys who were wrongfully accused. It seems the initial charges getgreat exposures, but when the people are cleared we do not hear much about what they had to go through and how they were stigmatized. I guess people do not want to feel guilty that they helped in the destruction of another.
 
Petrarose said:
Very sad. I would like to hear from these guys who were wrongfully accused. It seems the initial charges getgreat exposures, but when the people are cleared we do not hear much about what they had to go through and how they were stigmatized. I guess people do not want to feel guilty that they helped in the destruction of another.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. And how many people (media, law enforcement, public) would have to feel guilty if they acknowledged that Michael was innocent? So they rather keep up the myth with lies.
 
respect77 said:
Based on this docu I can say it's a "miracle" the police could not coerce more kids into it, as it seems to me it's actually not that difficult. But even when the police engaged in such improper questioning methods in Michael's case as well, they could not come up with more alleged victims!
Click to expand...
You know, that is exactly what i was thinking. Those corey and jason transcripts were really really pressurising. Those questioning techniques were definitely in play for jason's case, but not for gavin and jordan. They already wd have had their stories ready so didn't need any leading. I suppose with jason we just have to be grateful he didn't come up with ritual sacrifices of cows, and satanic chanting.

I watched the doc, v moving, wish they had explained the genesis of the witch hunt, why were the chldren being questioned in the first place, maybe i missed that explanation. I found it a little scary that the son of stroll, jed, still believes he was molested although can't remember any other detail. The 'therapy' that apparently he undertook, did make me think of all the therapy jason had and how it could just be used to reinforce the claims he made to police. Sneddon accompanied him tothe first therapy session, didn't he.
 
Bonnie that is the scary thing about these childhood lies that are repeated over and over. After a time the children begin to really think the lies happened. They begin to see the innocent gestures of the accused as menacing due to the therapy and faulty questioning by the police. That is why sometimes I wonder if Jordan and Gavin have not begun to believe their lies, because they have been indoctrinated into the lies for a long time, and notice that Zonin and company keep tabs on Gavin.
 
respect77 said:
Yes, I agree. And how many people (media, law enforcement, public) would have to feel guilty if they acknowledged that Michael was innocent? So they rather keep up the myth with lies.
Click to expand...

I also think that alot of people's ego's are far too big to say three simple words ''I was wrong''
 
analogue said:
I also think that alot of people's ego's are far too big to say three simple words ''I was wrong''
Click to expand...

That is so true. For many, a great part of their fame was created due to their perpetuation of this lie, so it would be a huge blow to their ego.
 
Bonnie Blue said:
The 'therapy' that apparently he undertook, did make me think of all the therapy jason had and how it could just be used to reinforce the claims he made to police. Sneddon accompanied him tothe first therapy session, didn't he.
Click to expand...


He did. Also according to a 1994 LA Times article his therapist, Mike Craft, was paid by the prosecution... And Jason was put in "therapy" when after his first interrogation his mother complained that the police interviewed him without her being present.

I never believed in the Sodium Amytal story and Jordan having false memories implanted (I think he knowingly lied), but I would not be surprised if Jason's case was such a case when by long "therapy" sessions he's been suggested that things he remembered were wrong and the things others told him to remember were the things those really happened. Actually this was already done at his police interviews, as transcripts prove.

Jason does not seem to be a very bright man. He is someone who, in 2005, at the age of twenty-something still struggled with reading. I imagine he was an easy subject for a therapist who was out to make him doubt his memories and suggest other "memories" instead.

Here is an interesting story about a woman who was made believe by her therapist (falsely) that she was molested by her mother as a child:

 
Petrarose said:
Bonnie that is the scary thing about these childhood lies that are repeated over and over. After a time the children begin to really think the lies happened. They begin to see the innocent gestures of the accused as menacing due to the therapy and faulty questioning by the police. That is why sometimes I wonder if Jordan and Gavin have not begun to believe their lies, because they have been indoctrinated into the lies for a long time, and notice that Zonin and company keep tabs on Gavin.
Click to expand...

I do not believe Jordan and Gavin think those things happened to them. They both know they lied, IMO. If you believe Mez, remember he said he had witnesses who said Jordan admitted to them that it never happened. And don't get me started on Gavin. He's a little greedy bastard, just like his mother. He knew exactly what he was doing.
 
respect77 said:
I do not believe Jordan and Gavin think those things happened to them. They both know they lied, IMO. If you believe Mez, remember he said he had witnesses who said Jordan admitted to them that it never happened. And don't get me started on Gavin. He's a little greedy bastard, just like his mother. He knew exactly what he was doing.
Click to expand...

I remember that, but can anyone remember why this was never brought up at court? Was it because the Chandler case was never admitted as evidence of prior alleged bad act?
 
Billie Jean 78 said:
I remember that, but can anyone remember why this was never brought up at court? Was it because the Chandler case was never admitted as evidence of prior alleged bad act?
Click to expand...

Yes. Because Jordan did not testify there was no need for those witnesses.
 
It´s nothing new that children tell lies when they testify.
Children told lies hundreds of years ago during the witchhunting period too.
Many women and men too were executed because of their lies
 
^ Yes. Unfortunately a new theory arose in the social service and child protection industries in the last few decades that sexual abuse is widespread and rampant, and that children do not lie about sexual abuse. It's been discredited in many cases both in the usa and uk, but has still great influence. Just as can be seen in the scandal at the bbc last week - a deeply disturbed man who has been abused as a child and whose stories were the subject of a public inquiry in the 90s and found to be unreliable, was allowed to air allegations on a massively publicised bbc programme that all but named a prominent tory politician to be a pedophile,leaving it to the social networks to 'out' the politician's name. Turns out it was all complete rubbish, mistaken identity - but not before a man's reputation is torn apart.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top