Urban-exploring michael jackson's neverland ranch

[bluesky]

[h=1]note: don't know where to post it, so posted it here



URBAN-EXPLORING MICHAEL JACKSON'S NEVERLAND RANCH[/h]By Jules Suzdaltsev Jun 27 2014

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On November 18, 2003, Michael Jackson’s 3,000-acre primary residence, Neverland Ranch, was searched by 70 police officers from the Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Department after accusations that Jackson had molested some children (The People of the State of California v. Michael Joseph Jackson). Following this, Jackson abandoned his estate, saying it had been “violated," and three years later the property went into foreclosure.
While the Ranch floated in real estate limbo, a group of photographers snuck onto the grounds and explored the abandoned kingdom, returning several times between December 2007 and March 2008. I spoke to the photographers to see what they saw. (Because tresspassing is illegal and I was feeling nostalgic for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, they will be referred to as Leonardo, Raphael, and Donatello. A fourth member contributed photography and was not interviewed.)
VICE: What inspired you guys to explore Neverland Ranch?
Leonardo: It was kind of a spur-of-the-moment thing. I was aware that the park had been abandoned for quite a while, and I knew that Jackson was in Dubai at the time and that he wasn’t able to pay his electric bills. So, my understanding was that it would be a short-lived opportunity. I usually drive along the 101 freeway, and I decided, I have a few extra hours, I’m just going to go check it out. It just so happened that the day I was out there, it was pretty windy. It was a good cover because there were guards on-site, and the wind sort of blocked out my noise. I was able to sneak in without being heard. I had no expectation to make it in, but I just wanted to see.

What was the weirdest shit you saw?
Raphael: [Laughs]
Leonardo: Raphael is laughing because everything we saw was pretty weird. To be honest, I wasn’t a big fan of Michael Jackson, but I knew that he was an important American historical figure. At the time, most people probably didn’t realize that he was part of history, and I knew that there was the potential for everything that was associated with him to be quickly lost. Without our documentation, I think it would’ve been a huge loss. So, I thought it was important to do that as quickly as we could, before it was gone.
Raphael: Are we talking about going into his house? Is that part of the story?
Please.
Raphael: We haven’t really told anyone about it... OK, the strangest thing to me was the little boy in pajamas sitting on the moon logo, everywhere. Like, it amazes me how much it resembles the DreamWorks logo. That thing was painted on the ground, like, 60 feet wide. It was on the signs, on the bumper cars, it was on the coach station where they parked the coach, one on the ground.
Donatello: That’s his creepy logo, right?
Raphael: It’s got a little boy sitting on it in those footie pajama things. Isn’t the back open, or is that only on some of the paintings? [Laughs]

Oh my God.
Donatello: The other thing was that he collected memorabilia that had his likeness on it. He had Pepsi bottles and books and other promotional material in boxes. He also had stacks and stacks of fan mail, and one piece that really grabbed me was the prosecuting attorney of his molestation case with devil’s horns drawn on. That was just laying on a tabletop—maybe a Pac-Man table?
Raphael: You read his fan mail?
Donatello: We were flipping through some of it.

How did you guys get into his house?
Raphael: We probably don’t want to talk about the details about how we entered.
Was it difficult?
Leonardo: We didn’t have to break any laws, because it was open. It was all open. The house was open.
Wow.
Raphael: One thing that really sticks out in my memory was drinking his grape soda from that walk-in kitchen storage area and then very carefully wiping the fingerprints off the bottle and hiding it in the bushes.
Wait, you drank his juice?
Raphael: I was thirsty and he had all of this grape soda, and I thought I’d just drink something from his house.
Was it actual grape soda?
Raphael: Yeah! It was actual grape soda. In the kitchen there was this “Children of the World” menu. Everything in there was geared toward children. I’m not sure he had any, but…
He did.
Raphael: That menu, on a permanently-printed chalkboard with peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and macaroni and cheese, that sticks out in my mind. And the strange hodgepodge of shit that he had bought that didn’t have any relation to his house. His entire house was filled with these expensive looking, one-off, semi-artistic things.

Semi-artistic?
Raphael: These weird mirrors on this four-foot by four-foot platform. And that would be next to some Roman statue-looking thing. Next to that would be an eight-foot-tall oil painting of Michael Jackson himself. There were all of these paintings inside the house.
Donatello: There’s one where he’s leading a procession of children.
What was the vibe in the house?
Donatello: I was really on-edge and uncomfortable, mostly because I was worried that someone might find us in there and I think it’s just such a breach of privacy. It was so compelling to do it; I couldn’t not go in because the opportunity was there. But at the same time, it just felt wrong. It was this constant friction between fascination and, I’ve got to get the **** out of here, I shouldn’t be in here.
Leonardo: That’s true. We all felt that way. We [as urban explorers] don’t normally ever go in peoples’ houses.
Raphael: It’s all usually industrial, or old schools, or things that aren’t people's personal residences. At one point, I got so fed up with the weirdness that I went outside and I tried to loosen them up by banging on the door. I had a flashlight in my hand, and made it look like I was busting them. We **** around with each other quite a bit, but Donatello was furious that I did that.

That’s ridiculous.
Donatello: I don’t remember that. It must’ve been such a bad memory.
Raphael: I scared the shit out of you.
Leonardo: I remember that vividly, actually. I didn’t find anything that creepy about the whole thing. I found it really odd and different, but I wasn’t scared at any moment. I think none of us were really scared. Mostly we felt like we shouldn’t be invading the privacy of someone else. But I never felt like I was afraid of any of the things that he put out there. It just seemed really exotic and different. There are far more odd things in this world than what Michael Jackson was.
Raphael: The whole thing was just really an adventure, and going somewhere that nobody’s ever seen, and seeing all of this stuff, it was right after he left the country because of the molestation charges. So in our mind, it was like looking at everything more from that angle. There’s the kids’ stuff, there’s toys everywhere, there’s the huge arcade—a giant child-magnet.
Donatello: I don’t know. I don’t want the whole gist of this interview to back up those allegations toward the guy.
That’s OK. I was actually going to ask how much of the property you ended up being able to see?
Donatello: We pretty much saw everything except for the petting zoo area. We went to the arcade, the mansion, the amusement park rides, the railroad train station, all of the statue areas…

I’m shocked that you guys weren’t caught.
Donatello: We’re kind of professionals. I don’t want to sound arrogant, but… We do this a lot. We do a lot of research and recon. But also, it’s surprisingly low-key because there’s a guard truck down by the road, and we just avoided that guard truck, and once you’re past that, you’re in the valley, and you’re on your own, and it’s pretty desolate.
Raphael: Surprisingly, we just roamed about the grounds. Casually.
It’s a pretty huge space, isn’t it?
Raphael: Really big. We didn’t even get to the zoo, because it’s so far away.
Donatello: One other interesting thing—we did go in Michael's room, but both of the kids’ rooms were locked from the outside.
Raphael: We decided not to get into the kids’ rooms, because it didn’t seem right.

What about his toy room?
Raphael: It was maybe 60 feet by 30 feet, and filled with every toy you could imagine. Life-size Lego models, Darth Vader—all sorts of awesome toys.
Donatello: The other thing I remember is that there were game stations set up all around the house. Imagine those consoles for Super Nintendo that you might find at the Best Buy store, but set up with all different systems.
Was there anything adult in there? It all sounds like mostly kids’ stuff. And weird art.
[Laughter]
Raphael: There were a lot of big, lounge-y spaces with couches and all the strange art objects.
Donatello: I remember seeing really normal things, change lying on a coffee table and a little office space with a computer and typical home stuff.

Roughly how many rooms did he have? It's a mansion. It must’ve been ****ing huge.
Leonardo: He probably had ten rooms, I would say. The mansion itself was not as huge as you’d think, but there were all of these other smaller buildings that we didn’t really go in.
Isn’t there a massive clock in the garden?
Donatello: Oh, dude, there’s all kinds of crazy shit in the garden.
Leonardo: Didn’t you take a picture of the clock with the hands stuck, and then you realized later on that you took the picture within three seconds of what the hands were stuck at?
Donatello: I did! There’s this clock that’s stopped around 2:55, and I just happened to snap the shot almost exactly at that same time, without even realizing it until a year later.

Pretty serendipitous. Although, how did you know that it had been stopped?
Donatello: The power had been cut off, and the hands weren’t moving.
The house didn’t have any power?
Donatello: If I remember correctly, there was no power in the mansion but the water was working.
Did you guys use the bathroom?
[Laughter]
Donatello: I think we checked the water or something because we were just curious if it worked. What’s weird is that within his house, there was no dust. It was immaculate. The carpet was vacuumed, and there was no dust on any of those crazy sculpture or statues. That’s kind of why we were on edge—like, people are here. A lot of things were covered in vinyl-type tarps to protect them. But it was obvious that someone was in there cleaning, I would say, at least once a week, by how clean it was.

But he hadn’t lived there for a while…
Raphael: I think that’s what signified to Leonardo that he was OK to go in there.
Leonardo: The house is foreclosed, it’s basically derelict, defunct. That’s when it hit my radar.
Raphael: It’s probably obvious that we really only go to abandoned and defunct sites.
You don’t seem like paparazzi.
Raphael: We're paparazzi of bridges, maybe.
Thanks, guys.
Follow Jules Suzdaltsev on Twitter.


http://www.vice.com/read/exploring-michael-jacksons-abandoned-neverland-ranch-760

 

[GreenEyes]

Urban-Exploring Michael Jackson's Neverland Ranch
By Jules Suzdaltsev Jun 27 2014

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On November 18, 2003, Michael Jackson’s 3,000-acre primary residence, Neverland Ranch, was searched by 70 police officers from the Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Department after accusations that Jackson had molested some children (The People of the State of California v. Michael Joseph Jackson). Following this, Jackson abandoned his estate, saying it had been “violated," and three years later the property went into foreclosure.

While the Ranch floated in real estate limbo, a group of photographers snuck onto the grounds and explored the abandoned kingdom, returning several times between December 2007 and March 2008. I spoke to the photographers to see what they saw. (Because tresspassing is illegal and I was feeling nostalgic for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, they will be referred to as Leonardo, Raphael, and Donatello. A fourth member contributed photography and was not interviewed.)

VICE: What inspired you guys to explore Neverland Ranch?
Leonardo: It was kind of a spur-of-the-moment thing. I was aware that the park had been abandoned for quite a while, and I knew that Jackson was in Dubai at the time and that he wasn’t able to pay his electric bills. So, my understanding was that it would be a short-lived opportunity. I usually drive along the 101 freeway, and I decided, I have a few extra hours, I’m just going to go check it out. It just so happened that the day I was out there, it was pretty windy. It was a good cover because there were guards on-site, and the wind sort of blocked out my noise. I was able to sneak in without being heard. I had no expectation to make it in, but I just wanted to see.

What was the weirdest shit you saw?
Raphael: [Laughs]
Leonardo: Raphael is laughing because everything we saw was pretty weird. To be honest, I wasn’t a big fan of Michael Jackson, but I knew that he was an important American historical figure. At the time, most people probably didn’t realize that he was part of history, and I knew that there was the potential for everything that was associated with him to be quickly lost. Without our documentation, I think it would’ve been a huge loss. So, I thought it was important to do that as quickly as we could, before it was gone.
Raphael: Are we talking about going into his house? Is that part of the story?

Please.
Raphael: We haven’t really told anyone about it... OK, the strangest thing to me was the little boy in pajamas sitting on the moon logo, everywhere. Like, it amazes me how much it resembles the DreamWorks logo. That thing was painted on the ground, like, 60 feet wide. It was on the signs, on the bumper cars, it was on the coach station where they parked the coach, one on the ground.
Donatello: That’s his creepy logo, right?
Raphael: It’s got a little boy sitting on it in those footie pajama things. Isn’t the back open, or is that only on some of the paintings? [Laughs]

Oh my God.
Donatello: The other thing was that he collected memorabilia that had his likeness on it. He had Pepsi bottles and books and other promotional material in boxes. He also had stacks and stacks of fan mail, and one piece that really grabbed me was the prosecuting attorney of his molestation case with devil’s horns drawn on. That was just laying on a tabletop—maybe a Pac-Man table?
Raphael: You read his fan mail?
Donatello: We were flipping through some of it.

How did you guys get into his house?
Raphael: We probably don’t want to talk about the details about how we entered.

Was it difficult?
Leonardo: We didn’t have to break any laws, because it was open. It was all open. The house was open.

Wow.
Raphael: One thing that really sticks out in my memory was drinking his grape soda from that walk-in kitchen storage area and then very carefully wiping the fingerprints off the bottle and hiding it in the bushes.

Wait, you drank his juice?
Raphael: I was thirsty and he had all of this grape soda, and I thought I’d just drink something from his house.

Was it actual grape soda?
Raphael: Yeah! It was actual grape soda. In the kitchen there was this “Children of the World” menu. Everything in there was geared toward children. I’m not sure he had any, but…

He did.
Raphael: That menu, on a permanently-printed chalkboard with peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and macaroni and cheese, that sticks out in my mind. And the strange hodgepodge of shit that he had bought that didn’t have any relation to his house. His entire house was filled with these expensive looking, one-off, semi-artistic things.

Semi-artistic?
Raphael: These weird mirrors on this four-foot by four-foot platform. And that would be next to some Roman statue-looking thing. Next to that would be an eight-foot-tall oil painting of Michael Jackson himself. There were all of these paintings inside the house.
Donatello: There’s one where he’s leading a procession of children.

What was the vibe in the house?
Donatello: I was really on-edge and uncomfortable, mostly because I was worried that someone might find us in there and I think it’s just such a breach of privacy. It was so compelling to do it; I couldn’t not go in because the opportunity was there. But at the same time, it just felt wrong. It was this constant friction between fascination and, I’ve got to get the **** out of here, I shouldn’t be in here.
Leonardo: That’s true. We all felt that way. We [as urban explorers] don’t normally ever go in peoples’ houses.
Raphael: It’s all usually industrial, or old schools, or things that aren’t people's personal residences. At one point, I got so fed up with the weirdness that I went outside and I tried to loosen them up by banging on the door. I had a flashlight in my hand, and made it look like I was busting them. We **** around with each other quite a bit, but Donatello was furious that I did that.

That’s ridiculous.
Donatello: I don’t remember that. It must’ve been such a bad memory.
Raphael: I scared the shit out of you.
Leonardo: I remember that vividly, actually. I didn’t find anything that creepy about the whole thing. I found it really odd and different, but I wasn’t scared at any moment. I think none of us were really scared. Mostly we felt like we shouldn’t be invading the privacy of someone else. But I never felt like I was afraid of any of the things that he put out there. It just seemed really exotic and different. There are far more odd things in this world than what Michael Jackson was.
Raphael: The whole thing was just really an adventure, and going somewhere that nobody’s ever seen, and seeing all of this stuff, it was right after he left the country because of the molestation charges. So in our mind, it was like looking at everything more from that angle. There’s the kids’ stuff, there’s toys everywhere, there’s the huge arcade—a giant child-magnet.
Donatello: I don’t know. I don’t want the whole gist of this interview to back up those allegations toward the guy.

That’s OK. I was actually going to ask how much of the property you ended up being able to see?
Donatello: We pretty much saw everything except for the petting zoo area. We went to the arcade, the mansion, the amusement park rides, the railroad train station, all of the statue areas…

I’m shocked that you guys weren’t caught.
Donatello: We’re kind of professionals. I don’t want to sound arrogant, but… We do this a lot. We do a lot of research and recon. But also, it’s surprisingly low-key because there’s a guard truck down by the road, and we just avoided that guard truck, and once you’re past that, you’re in the valley, and you’re on your own, and it’s pretty desolate.
Raphael: Surprisingly, we just roamed about the grounds. Casually.

It’s a pretty huge space, isn’t it?
Raphael: Really big. We didn’t even get to the zoo, because it’s so far away.
Donatello: One other interesting thing—we did go in Michael's room, but both of the kids’ rooms were locked from the outside.
Raphael: We decided not to get into the kids’ rooms, because it didn’t seem right.

What about his toy room?
Raphael: It was maybe 60 feet by 30 feet, and filled with every toy you could imagine. Life-size Lego models, Darth Vader—all sorts of awesome toys.
Donatello: The other thing I remember is that there were game stations set up all around the house. Imagine those consoles for Super Nintendo that you might find at the Best Buy store, but set up with all different systems.

Was there anything adult in there? It all sounds like mostly kids’ stuff. And weird art.
[Laughter]
Raphael: There were a lot of big, lounge-y spaces with couches and all the strange art objects.
Donatello: I remember seeing really normal things, change lying on a coffee table and a little office space with a computer and typical home stuff.

Roughly how many rooms did he have? It's a mansion. It must’ve been ****ing huge.
Leonardo: He probably had ten rooms, I would say. The mansion itself was not as huge as you’d think, but there were all of these other smaller buildings that we didn’t really go in.

Isn’t there a massive clock in the garden?
Donatello: Oh, dude, there’s all kinds of crazy shit in the garden.
Leonardo: Didn’t you take a picture of the clock with the hands stuck, and then you realized later on that you took the picture within three seconds of what the hands were stuck at?
Donatello: I did! There’s this clock that’s stopped around 2:55, and I just happened to snap the shot almost exactly at that same time, without even realizing it until a year later.

Pretty serendipitous. Although, how did you know that it had been stopped?
Donatello: The power had been cut off, and the hands weren’t moving.

The house didn’t have any power?
Donatello: If I remember correctly, there was no power in the mansion but the water was working.

Did you guys use the bathroom?
[Laughter]
Donatello: I think we checked the water or something because we were just curious if it worked. What’s weird is that within his house, there was no dust. It was immaculate. The carpet was vacuumed, and there was no dust on any of those crazy sculpture or statues. That’s kind of why we were on edge—like, people are here. A lot of things were covered in vinyl-type tarps to protect them. But it was obvious that someone was in there cleaning, I would say, at least once a week, by how clean it was.

But he hadn’t lived there for a while…
Raphael: I think that’s what signified to Leonardo that he was OK to go in there.
Leonardo: The house is foreclosed, it’s basically derelict, defunct. That’s when it hit my radar.
Raphael: It’s probably obvious that we really only go to abandoned and defunct sites.

You don’t seem like paparazzi.
Raphael: We're paparazzi of bridges, maybe.

Thanks, guys.

http://www.vice.com/read/exploring-michael-jacksons-abandoned-neverland-ranch-760

 

[HIStory]

Donatello: That’s his creepy logo, right?
Raphael: It’s got a little boy sitting on it in those footie pajama things. Isn’t the back open, or is that only on some of the paintings? [Laughs]

Why do they have to make out everything creepy?
Now the NL logo is "creepy"? WTF?

He had Pepsi bottles and books and other promotional material in boxes. He also had stacks and stacks of fan mail, and one piece that really grabbed me was the prosecuting attorney of his molestation case with devil’s horns drawn on. That was just laying on a tabletop—maybe a Pac-Man table?

That's not the prosecutor but Mottola.

Leonardo: I remember that vividly, actually. I didn’t find anything that creepy about the whole thing. I found it really odd and different, but I wasn’t scared at any moment. I think none of us were really scared. Mostly we felt like we shouldn’t be invading the privacy of someone else. But I never felt like I was afraid of any of the things that he put out there. It just seemed really exotic and different. There are far more odd things in this world than what Michael Jackson was.

This guy at least has some sense.

Raphael: The whole thing was just really an adventure, and going somewhere that nobody’s ever seen, and seeing all of this stuff, it was right after he left the country because of the molestation charges. So in our mind, it was like looking at everything more from that angle. There’s the kids’ stuff, there’s toys everywhere, there’s the huge arcade—a giant child-magnet.
Donatello: I don’t know. I don’t want the whole gist of this interview to back up those allegations toward the guy.

Here we go. Toys=molestation? :doh:The media really managed to brainwash people into this crap.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Story/Photos From Guys Who Broke Into Neverland

Mods, please merge it: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/133373-Urban-exploring-michael-jackson-s-neverland-ranch

 

[GreenEyes]

Re: Story/Photos From Guys Who Broke Into Neverland

Sorry, I didn't see that it was already posted.

 

[MJresearcher]

It makes me angry that these people did this, it doesn't matter that the place was open, it doesn't give them the right to go in there. I hate how they kept referring to things as "weird" and "creepy". They listen to to much crap! Then they were commenting on how everything is geared towards children and didn't know whether or not he had any. Yeah, he did! I rolled my eyes when they thought the picture of Tommy Motolla was of Tom Sneddon, just goes to show how ignorant some people really are about all this. They need a good kick in the arse!

 

[GreenEyes]

It makes me angry that these people did this, it doesn't matter that the place was open, it doesn't give them the right to go in there. I hate how they kept referring to things as "weird" and "creepy". They listen to to much crap! Then they were commenting on how everything is geared towards children and didn't know whether or not he had any. Yeah, he did! I rolled my eyes when they thought the picture of Tommy Motolla was of Tom Sneddon, just goes to show how ignorant some people really are about all this. They need a good kick in the arse!

I agree. I thought it was kind of rude how they were saying some of that stuff. It's a damn shame these people were able to see and explore Neverland like that, and they don't even appreciate it.:no:

Here is the website of one of these people who I believe got in there. http://scotthaefner.com/photos/place/Neverland+Ranch/2508/

 

[Amaya]

Urban exploration has always fascinated me but this was just sad and wrong, especially seeing how they tried to apply suggestive labels to everything.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Are we the fans the only ones who are sensitive and sensible enough to understand, feel compassion and emphaty towards Michael? They had to ruin the magnificence and beauty of Neverland with their idiocity and closemindedness! :doh: How I wish they were cought while I was reading that stupid article, what a shame they weren't! :sigh:

 

[HIStoric]

They had to ruin the magnificence and beauty of Neverland with their idiocity and closemindedness! :doh:

Neverland was ruined years before that.

These guys are total idiots. First they claim they did it as a "spur-of-the-moment" thing, then go on about how they do a lot of research and recon. Then they play pranks on each other while they're there, drink drinks that aren't theirs (which they later littered), rifle through personal belongings and then later have the audacity to say "we're professionals".

I was reading the comments on the article and, as usual, debates about the molestation came up. One guy commented:

Jesus Christ, I wish some people would use their brains, or at least do research. Only Jordan Chandler described MJ's penis as far as I'm aware and he wasn't that accurate. He even said MJ was circumcised, which later photographs and strip searches confirmed he wasn't.

It's just stupid because if MJ did anything that remotely proved he definitely molested children, he would be alive in jail right now as we speak. I mean hell, he'd probably at least be in trouble with the law for "peeing in front of children" (I'm sure there's some law that loosely covers that?), that is, if he actually did it.

And I hate how people think "Oh if you pay someone off you're guilty". Many reputable lawyers say that that is not the case. If some guy molested my kid, you could give me 10 thousand billion dollars, I wouldn't care for all the money in the world. I'd want that f**ker brought to justice as any decent parent would. Didn't Chandler also have the chance to testify once more against MJ in 2005 but refused to?

Why does this guy also think everybody is the exact same too? People are different, just because some of MJ's older brothers (who had more of a childhood since the J5 started when they were older) seem fine doesn't mean everyone who goes through that will turn out a-ok. Ignoring the fact that Michael was the youngest of the group when it started, he was under a lot more pressure than the others too because he was the star of the group.

It just really pisses me off how people spread all this crap about MJ with absolutely no legitimate sources, and others just believe whatever they say (as you can see by the ridiculous amount of likes on the comment). Michael was different, absolutely, but he most certainly was not a pedophile or child molester and minimal amounts of research proves it outright.

/rant :ranting

In saying all of that though, I have seen a bit of a public turn around since his passing. It seems more and more people are starting to doubt the allegations and see him just as a 'different' person who desperately tried to recapture his childhood. So at least there's that...

 

[MJresearcher]

I left a reply for Dinty. Stupid prick has no clue about any of this AT ALL, then he has the audacity to tell other people to do a search on it. I kept my reply civil and gave links to the facts, hopefully other people reading it will have a look, Dinty is probably too much of a bigot so he probably won't but screw him, he can go f*** himself.

 

[MJresearcher]

My post was deleted within a couple of minutes, so I've reposted it without the links. Hopefully it stays there this time! It greatly annoys me when this happens because then people don't have the direct connection to the facts.

 

[CaptainEoLove85]

These guys didn't deserve to set foot on Michael's property.

 

[HIStoric]

My post was deleted within a couple of minutes, so I've reposted it without the links. Hopefully it stays there this time! It greatly annoys me when this happens because then people don't have the direct connection to the facts.

Yup I just read your reply. Excellent response

 

[HIStory]

So many inaccuracies in such a short post. Just goes to show the many myths out there about MJ.

- He did not shower with other people's kids. This was an allegation by one maid, who got money from a tabloid for the claim. When on the stand in 2005 she was not so sure any more about what she allegedly saw or didn't see. At one point in a deposition she actually admitted she did not see anyone else in the shower but MJ.

- 10 kids accurately described his penis? He's simply making up stuff. The only one who ever gave a description was Jordan Chandler, the first accuser, but his description was not accurate. If it was MJ had been arrested. He wasn't and that speaks volumes despite of what prosecutor Tom Sneddon (who had a vendetta against MJ) claims in the media. Moreover, since MJ's death at least we know that he was not circumcised (it's in his autopsy). Jordan described his penis as circumcised. So how is it an accurate description?

- He never said he peed in a cup in front of people. The guy reads too much tabloid. This claim was on TMZ and made by MJ's dermatologist, Arnold Klein who is just a tabloid whore and not credible at all. MJ himself never claimed any such thing and he certainly did not use this claim as a defense for anything.


I'm not surprised he deleted your answer. Bigots like him only like to hear themselves talk and do not like to be challenged with facts and proven wrong.

 

[HIStory]

My post was deleted within a couple of minutes, so I've reposted it without the links. Hopefully it stays there this time! It greatly annoys me when this happens because then people don't have the direct connection to the facts.

Did they delete it again?

ETA: Nevermind, it's there.

 

[HIStory]

I left a message too, but it got deleted almost immediately too. Interesting. There weren't any links in it so, that's not the reason.

This is what I left:

So many inaccuracies in such a short post. Just goes to show the many myths out there about MJ.

- He did not shower with other people's kids. This was an allegation by one maid, who got money from a tabloid for the claim. When on the stand in 2005 she was not so sure any more about what she allegedly saw or didn't see. At one point in a deposition she actually admitted she did not see anyone else in the shower but MJ.

- 10 kids accurately described his penis? He's simply making up stuff. The only one who ever gave a description was Jordan Chandler, the first accuser, but his description was not accurate. If it was MJ had been arrested. He wasn't and that speaks volumes despite of what prosecutor Tom Sneddon (who had a vendetta against MJ) claims in the media. Moreover, since MJ's death at least we know that he was not circumcised (it's in his autopsy). Jordan described his penis as circumcised. So how is it an accurate description?

- He never said he peed in a cup in front of people. The guy reads too much tabloid. This claim was on TMZ and made by MJ's dermatologist, Arnold Klein who is just a tabloid whore and not credible at all. MJ himself never claimed any such thing and he certainly did not use this claim as a defense.

So why was it deleted?

Now, I posted it again and added to it a bit. It will be interesting for how long it stays:

This is getting interesting. I made a post, but it got deleted in no time. Is there free speech on this site or you are getting deleted if you do not join the lynch mob against MJ? I'm trying to post it again, so let's see if it remains there this time:

Dinty Dintster

So many inaccuracies in such a short post. Just goes to show the many myths out there about MJ.

- He did not shower with other people's kids. This was an allegation by one maid, who got money from a tabloid for the claim. When on the stand in 2005 she was not so sure any more about what she allegedly saw or didn't see. At one point in a deposition she actually admitted she did not see anyone else in the shower but MJ.

- 10 kids accurately described his penis? He's simply making up stuff. The only one who ever gave a description was Jordan Chandler, the first accuser, but his description was not accurate. If it was MJ had been arrested. He wasn't and that speaks volumes despite of what prosecutor Tom Sneddon (who had a vendetta against MJ) claims in the media. Moreover, since MJ's death at least we know that he was not circumcised (it's in his autopsy). Jordan described his penis as circumcised. So how is it an accurate description?

- He never said he peed in a cup in front of people. The guy reads too much tabloid. This claim was on TMZ and made by MJ's dermatologist, Arnold Klein who is just a tabloid whore and not credible at all. MJ himself never claimed any such thing and he certainly did not use this claim as a defense.

I read the actual court documents and testimonies, not just TMZ, so I know what I'm talking about.

And you are "winning the like war", yes, and that means you are right? How childish. So is it about winning a "like war" of FB for you and not about whether the information that you post is actually correct? Show me one credible source according to which 10 kids described MJ's penis accurately. Show me one credible source according to which MJ ever said - in court or elsewhere - that he peed in a cup in front of people and where he used that as an excuse against the description (which BTW wasn't accurate, as I said above).

 

[HIStoric]

So why was it deleted?

I clicked on Dinty's name, which took me to his Facebook. On his timeline, I saw the article since he commented. A lot of your posts seem to be showing up on there?

MJresearcher, you can see your post on there too, links and all (followed by the one without links).

 

[MJresearcher]

When I go to the actual article I can't see the comments left by respect77 or HIStoric. They only seem to be deleting comments made in MJ's defense even if it's written respectfully and without links. How convenient! Some people just can't handle the truth!

 

[HIStoric]

When I go to the actual article I can't see the comments left by respect77 or HIStoric. They only seem to be deleting comments made in MJ's defense even if it's written respectfully and without links. How convenient! Some people just can't handle the truth!

Just so you know, I haven't written any comments on Facebook.

 

[MJresearcher]

Just so you know, I haven't written any comments on Facebook.

Sorry, I misread. I got a notification that someone else commented but that notification disappeared and I didn't find any new comments. I wonder why they allowed some of mine to stay but deleted other comments in defense of MJ? This is odd.

 

[HIStoric]

Sorry, I misread. I got a notification that someone else commented but that notification disappeared and I didn't find any new comments. I wonder why they allowed some of mine to stay but deleted other comments in defense of MJ? This is odd.

It's allgood There might be someone else who commented, idk. Maybe the posts on the Vice website itself have to be approved by some Vice staff or something? Not sure...

 

[MJresearcher]

All of my comments on the site had initially appeared immediately, refreshing the page showed they'd disappeared,other people's comments have disappeared as soon as they were posted but some of mine are still there. Confusing.

 

[HIStory]

Made another comment, hope it stays:

Dinty Dintster Dinty Dintster said: "The police investigation is completely public. .just do a search. You can see the evidence they had. Im supposed to believe he was innocent because he paid the kids dad off? Only reason there was no conviction is for that reason."

Actually I did my research that's how I know a lot of the things you post here are simply incorrect. My research included reading court documents, testimonies (not just the cherry-picked, out-of-context tabloid representation of them) and also included reading what the accusers had to say. That is because when I'm interested in something I want to learn about both sides and want make a judgement that is based on facts, not on myths or rumours. So I read the book written by the uncle of the 1993 accuser, Jordan Chandler. It's called "All That Glitters" - written by Ray Chandler. The book does not intend to exonerate MJ (on the contrary), but strangely enough it does a lot to exonarate him. (And I believe had this family ever stepped on the stand they would have been destroyed by any half-competent defense attorney. They knew it too, that's why they were running scared from having to appear in court.) From the book you learn how the whole case formed, how the family wanted money from MJ from the get go, how they NEVER wanted a criminal trial (a criminal trial is how you would send a perpetrator to jail) - they only wanted a civil (which is where the money is) and so on. It wasn't a "slam dunk" case at all like you said. Had it been a slam dunk case then the prosecution could have brought charges against MJ regardless whether the boy testified or not. In the book the Chandlers actually admit had it gone to court it would have been only MJ's word vs. Jordan's - there was nothing else. For a "slam dunk case" the prosecution was actually even unable to get MJ indicted in front of two Grand Juries in the spring of 1994...

The critics who bring up the settlement as a sign of guilt for MJ do not realize had Jackson wanted to &#8220;hush&#8221; his accuser he could have done so before the allegations went public and before the authorities were involved. In fact, the accusing side&#8217;s goal was to get a pay-off from the very beginning. It is clear that the reason they turned to the public and the authorities with their allegations was because they did not get the pay-off they desired. For over a month this family tried to get MJ pay them off which MJ refused and that's why they eventually went public with the allegations. This is from the book:

&#8220;On the morning of August 17, 1993, as he negotiated with Barry Rothman (the Chandler's lawyer), Anthony Pellicano (one of MJ's people) had in his possession a copy of the psychiatrists report with the names omitted. He held in his hand the future of the most famous entertainer in human history. Yet the tape is replete with examples of Pellicano refusing to compromise on what would amount to chump change to Jackson. Why take the chance of Michael&#8217;s name ending up on that report and triggering an investigation?&#8221; (1; page 138)

If that still does not sound like an extortion to you, here is another nice one from that book:

&#8220;Had Michael paid the twenty million dollars demanded of him in August, rather than the following January, he might have spent the next ten years as the world&#8217;s most famous entertainer, instead of the world&#8217;s most infamous child molester.&#8221; (1; page 128)

Moreover, there is a lot of incorrect assumption about what a settlement is about. You cannot settle criminal cases, you can only settle civil ones. MJ settled the civil case, because it was tactically pushed ahead of the criminal case by the Chandlers which could have compromised MJ's right to a fair criminal trial. A settlement in a civil case cannot prohibit anyone from testifying at a criminal trial. The Chandlers could have taken the settlement money AND testified against MJ in a criminal trial. Nothing in the settlement prohibited that. It is simply not allowed by law. They chose not to testify but they admit in their book that they never wanted a criminal trial in the first place. Their only focus was a civil trial (which cannot put an alleged perpetrator in jail, it's only about money).

One other point I'd like to make is, that it was NOT MJ who offered the settlement. It was the Chandler family which DEMANDED it from the get go. In fact, in their book they admit that when they filed their civil lawsuit in September 1993 they did that with "a highly profitable settlement" in mind:

&#8220;By the conclusion of the meeting, June (the boy's mother) and Dave (step-father), like Evan (biological father who orchestrated the whole thing) before them, had no doubts about switching from Gloria Allred (criminal attorney) to Larry Feldman (civil attorney). The choice came down to either waging an all-out media campaign to pressure the DA to seek a Grand Jury indictment, or conducting subtle, behind-the-scenes negotiations toward a quick, quiet and highly profitable settlement.&#8221; (3; page 168)

It was always about the money for these people, they never wanted a criminal trial.

BTW, one of my earlier comments got deleted again. It seems like they do censor people who talk in defense of MJ. What cowards!

I have all my comments saved now, so let's see if they delete all my other comments too. I will keep reposting them.

 

[Dilan]

I couldn't finish this article this was just disrespectful. The stupid ****s should kill themselves.

 

[MJresearcher]

I checked just then and they've deleted all your comments. The moderators of that site are utterly pathetic!

 

[HIStory]

I checked just then and they've deleted all your comments. The moderators of that site are utterly pathetic!

I still see two of your and two of my comments. They did delete my post TWICE though in which I challenge Dinster about the points he made. This one (now I posted it for the third time - as of now, this third version is still there - let's see for how long):

This is the third time I'm posting this, because two other times it got deleted. I wonder what kind of censorship is going on on this website. Is there free speech here or not? Let's try it once again:

Dinty Dintster

So many inaccuracies in such a short post. Just goes to show the many myths out there about MJ.

- He did not shower with other people's kids. This was an allegation by one maid, who got money from a tabloid for the claim. When on the stand in 2005 she was not so sure any more about what she allegedly saw or didn't see. At one point in a deposition she actually admitted she did not see anyone else in the shower but MJ.

- 10 kids accurately described his penis? The only one who ever gave a description was Jordan Chandler, the first accuser, but his description was not accurate. If it was MJ had been arrested. He wasn't and that speaks volumes despite of what prosecutor Tom Sneddon (who had a vendetta against MJ) claims in the media. Moreover, since MJ's death at least we know that he was not circumcised (it's in his autopsy). Jordan described his penis as circumcised. So how is it an accurate description?

- He never said he peed in a cup in front of people. This claim was on TMZ and made by MJ's dermatologist, Arnold Klein who is a nutcase and a tabloid whore and not credible at all. MJ himself never claimed any such thing and he certainly did not use this claim as a defense.

I read the actual court documents and testimonies, not just TMZ, so I know what I'm talking about.

And you are "winning the like war", yes, and that means you are right? How childish. So is it about winning a "like war" on FB for you and not about whether the information that you post is actually correct? Show me one credible source according to which 10 kids described MJ's penis accurately. Show me one credible source according to which MJ ever said - in court or elsewhere - that he peed in a cup in front of people and where he used that as an excuse against the description (which BTW wasn't accurate, as I said above).

They also deleted my post in which I quoted from Gavin's testimony.

 

[MJresearcher]

Maybe there's some kind of glitch with it on my computer, it doesn't show any of your comments when I go to it. If they come up when you go to it then it must be there, and I hope they leave them there this time!

 

[Rhilo]

Re: Story/Photos From Guys Who Broke Into Neverland

Don't like the tone of this and I think what they did was wrong.

 

[GreenEyes]

They said they went to Neverland more than once.

I wonder if they took any other items, other than that grape soda? I would not be surprised one bit if they stole more valuable things. Someone made a comment about that, and I noticed it disappeared.