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The original version of the song “Butterflies”

mj_frenzy

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This is the original version of the song “Butterflies” that Marsha Ambrosius wrote at the age of 17 when she was still at school.

MJ liked the song instantly and decided to record it for “Invincible”.

One year later, it was included on the album “Floetic” (2002) by the English neo soul duo “Floetry” (Marsha Ambrosius & Natalie Stewart).

[video=youtube;amiXxFi-2TA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amiXxFi-2TA[/video]
 
Let's just hope the don't ever have the audacity to call it "their song". :)
 
How could she legally release it on her album one year after it being released on Invicible?
 
this is just a CRAAAAZY thought here, i might be nuts for thinking this, but assuming she didn't have the publishing rights to her own song she wrote, that she could clear it with Sony. Just a crazy thought, tho.
 
^^It got me confused too.

Anyhow, I prefer Michael's performance, his vocals are out of this world. But I can't deny Marsha wrote a beautiful song.
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
How could she legally release it on her album one year after it being released on Invicible?
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Why would Floetry need to get permission, since Marsha wrote it and it was recorded first? Anyway, you don't need to get permission to remake a song or even to do a parody of one. Weird Al does out of courtesy, but he doesn't have to legally. You have to get permission to use a sample because it is using an existing recording. During the 1960s, people remade Beatle songs as soon as they were released during the same year and Motown recorded the same songs by multiple acts and in some cases released the different versions as singles like I Heard It Through The Grapevine. Then CCR did a cover of the Marvin Gaye arrangement. Some jazz performers remake current hits.
 
Electro said:
If they wrote it, it IS their song. Michaels version is Michaels version, but it's not his song.
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It's not that simple. I think it can be called Michael's song too because he released it first with her approval. Are you saying that Man in the Mirror for example isn't Michael's because Siedah Garrett recorded it first but didn't release?
 
Galactus123 said:
It's not that simple. I think it can be called Michael's song too because he released it first with her approval. Are you saying that Man in the Mirror for example isn't Michael's because Siedah Garrett recorded it first but didn't release?
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Jesus, I started that as a joke....
 
Galactus123 said:
It's not that simple. I think it can be called Michael's song too because he released it first with her approval. Are you saying that Man in the Mirror for example isn't Michael's because Siedah Garrett recorded it first but didn't release?
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I think both can call it their song. Whatsherface can call it her song because she both wrote and performed the damn thing. Michael can also call his version his song since he performed it.

Tony R said:
Jesus, I started that as a joke....
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I picked up on that but since others have turned it into an actual discussion, yeah I added my two cents :p
 
DuranDuran said:
Why would Floetry need to get permission, since Marsha wrote it and it was recorded first? Anyway, you don't need to get permission to remake a song or even to do a parody of one. Weird Al does out of courtesy, but he doesn't have to legally. You have to get permission to use a sample because it is using an existing recording. During the 1960s, people remade Beatle songs as soon as they were released during the same year and Motown recorded the same songs by multiple acts and in some cases released the different versions as singles like I Heard It Through The Grapevine. Then CCR did a cover of the Marvin Gaye arrangement. Some jazz performers remake current hits.
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That's not entirely true. To officially release a cover version of a song on let's say your album you have to first acquire mechanical rights, an agreement that gives you permission from a songwriter or publisher to record a song that you do not own the songwriting copyright for.

I don't know what type of deal was struck with Floetry but there is a type of deal where you renounce all ownership from the song and basically sell it for a fee. That is the case with many songs written by another songwriter today. Even if she legally had the right to use it on her own project, it seems a bit unpalatable to release it just one year after Invicible. But hey that's just me
 
Galactus123 said:
It's not that simple. I think it can be called Michael's song too because he released it first with her approval. Are you saying that Man in the Mirror for example isn't Michael's because Siedah Garrett recorded it first but didn't release?
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An adopted child stays an adopted child. No matter what the upbringing by the adoptive parents adds to the composition.
It will never be their biological child. :D
 
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Themidwestcowboy said:
That's not entirely true. To officially release a cover version of a song on let's say your album you have to first acquire mechanical rights, an agreement that gives you permission from a songwriter or publisher to record a song that you do not own the songwriting copyright for.

I don't know what type of deal was struck with Floetry but there is a type of deal where you renounce all ownership from the song and basically sell it for a fee. That is the case with many songs written by another songwriter today. Even if she legally had the right to use it on her own project, it seems a bit unpalatable to release it just one year after Invicible. But hey that's just me
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There is no time limit to release a cover and ownership of publishing has nothing to do with releasing one. If someone releases a song today, another act can record it and release it. The original writers have to be credited and paid (or the publishing company if the writers do not own the song), and not claim that they wrote it like Led Zeppelin did with old blues songs. There's duets that appear on both performers albums like The Boy Is Mine by Brandy & Monica. Many of the songs on the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack appeared on the individual acts albums. There's also the case of answer songs, which usually come out while a song is still hot. Sometimes they sound similar to the original song (ig. Superstar by Lydia Murdock, Taxi by Anne LeSear) and sometimes not, like those that came out after UTFO's Roxanne, Roxanne or those Isley Brothers/Kelly Price/R. Kelly Mr. Biggs songs. This is a cover of a recent Taylor Swift song, and it came out 3 or 4 months after Taylor's version.
 
DuranDuran said:
There is no time limit to release a cover and ownership of publishing has nothing to do with releasing one. If someone releases a song today, another act can record it and release it. The original writers have to be credited and paid (or the publishing company if the writers do not own the song), and not claim that they wrote it like Led Zeppelin did with old blues songs. There's duets that appear on both performers albums like The Boy Is Mine by Brandy & Monica. Many of the songs on the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack appeared on the individual acts albums. There's also the case of answer songs, which usually come out while a song is still hot. Sometimes they sound similar to the original song (ig. Superstar by Lydia Murdock, Taxi by Anne LeSear) and sometimes not, like those that came out after UTFO's Roxanne, Roxanne or those Isley Brothers/Kelly Price/R. Kelly Mr. Biggs songs. This is a cover of a recent Taylor Swift song, and it came out 3 or 4 months after Taylor's version.
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I think you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. I'm not talking about recording a cover and releasing it on social media sites like youtube etc , I'm talking about recording a cover of another artist original work and releasing it on an official project that ends up at the retailers and digital stores like Itunes. Of course you can record a cover and share it on the internet like the fellas did with the taylor swift song, people do that everyday, but you can bet that they can't officially put this on a record without getting hit with a major lawsuit. That is unless they obtain a mechanical license. Or sometimes they just don't care. But why risk something like that?

"The original writers have to be credited and paid (or the publishing company if the writers do not own the song)"
Yes and that is called a mechanical license, as i said in my previous post. Floetry's situation is different though, because she wrote the song so that entails ownership of the song. So it depends on what kind of deal they struck with her.
 
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People release covers of songs since the beginning of recorded material-and release it commercially. The Beatles had 3 Motown covers on their first album here. She is the actual songwriter. I'm certain if Marsha had sold away her rights and didn't get proper rights from the publishers, she would have been sued. This doesn't make sense.

And I love her song-listened to her version and it's still jazzingly beautiful-but Michael's voice just elevates it to pure bliss.
 
barbee0715 said:
People release covers of songs since the beginning of recorded material-and release it commercially. The Beatles had 3 Motown covers on their first album here. She is the actual songwriter. I'm certain if Marsha had sold away her rights and didn't get proper rights from the publishers, she would have been sued. This doesn't make sense.

And I love her song-listened to her version and it's still jazzingly beautiful-but Michael's voice just elevates it to pure bliss.
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I'n not saying people can't or hasn't released covers commercially but in order to do that you have to come to an agreement with the songwriter or the publishing company or both, and nowadays that's called a mechanical license. . Don't know if it was called that back in the days. There are also some artists that doesn't care too much about their stuff being covered/sampled all togeher. Either she didn't renounce her rights to her song and still had ownership or she asked Michael for permission to use her version on her album. Both are plausible

Either way this is my fav song from invincible, Butterflies and Heaven Can Wait. It was such a joy hearing Michael returning too his soulful roots. I wish we could have an entire album with songs like, Break Of Dawn, Heaven Can't Wait, Butterflies and You Rock My World
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
I think you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. I'm not talking about recording a cover and releasing it on social media sites like youtube etc , I'm talking about recording a cover of another artist original work and releasing it on an official project that ends up at the retailers and digital stores like Itunes. Of course you can record a cover and share it on the internet like the fellas did with the taylor swift song, people do that everyday, but you can bet that they can't officially put this on a record without getting hit with a major lawsuit. That is unless they obtain a mechanical license. Or sometimes they just don't care. But why risk something like that?

"The original writers have to be credited and paid (or the publishing company if the writers do not own the song)"
Yes and that is called a mechanical license, as i said in my previous post. Floetry's situation is different though, because she wrote the song so that entails ownership of the song. So it depends on what kind of deal they struck with her.
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But you said 1 year was too soon for Floetry to release their version. You don't have to wait to release a cover on record or any other method. As soon as a song is released it can be covered and put out by another act. In the 1990s there was two versions of a song called I Swear around the same time, one by country singer John Michael Montgomery and another by pop group All 4 One.
 
I think you guys are over analyzing it.
Even if she was just doing a cover of someone elses song, they just have to get permission from the publisher/label/artist, and settle that and that's that.
 
DuranDuran said:
But you said 1 year was too soon for Floetry to release their version. You don't have to wait to release a cover on record or any other method. As soon as a song is released it can be covered and put out by another act. In the 1990s there was two versions of a song called I Swear around the same time, one by country singer John Michael Montgomery and another by pop group All 4 One.
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No, what I meant by that was that I thought it was unpalatable for her to release it just one year after Invicible because it was still fairly new and still in the charts. I didn't mean that she had to wait an amount of time to be able to release it.
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
No, what I meant by that was that I thought it was unpalatable for her to release it just one year after Invicible because it was still fairly new and still in the charts. .
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Maybe she was trying to capitalize on the success! That would make pretty good business sense!
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
No, what I meant by that was that I thought it was unpalatable for her to release it just one year after Invicible because it was still fairly new and still in the charts. I didn't mean that she had to wait an amount of time to be able to release it.
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What's the difference in that and Mike having Girlfriend on Off The Wall in 1979? It was on a Wings (Paul McCartney) album in 1978. The Floetry version was not even a single.
 
barbee0715 said:
Maybe she was trying to capitalize on the success! That would make pretty good business sense!
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Good business move? Definitely! Michael wasn't the one too hold grudges or anything like that but I can see some other artists getting a bit salty about that. It's nothing major though.

DuranDuran said:
What's the difference in that and Mike having Girlfriend on Off The Wall in 1979? It was on a Wings (Paul McCartney) album in 1978. The Floetry version was not even a single.
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Well now that you mentioned it it's not a big difference at all. Except that Girlfriend was originally written with Michael Jackson in mind and was subsequently penned for Off The Wall . So that song was intended for MJ all along ain't that so? So that situation is a bit different. I always thought that the situation with girlfriend was a bit sketchy as well.
 
barbee0715 said:
Can't believe I'm typing this, but think on Michael's version, it's around 2:02-:blush:
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Lmao! I was gonna say she learned it from him. After all, he was an expert at it. There's also parts towards the end of the song where he does it
 
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