Songwriting credit

Psychoniff

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On the songs that MJ collaborated on writing with, do you believe in most cases that he did the majority of it, or was he just the 'touch up' guy, just adding a little here and little there?
 
On the songs that MJ collaborated on writing with, do you believe in most cases that he did the majority of it, or was he just the 'touch up' guy, just adding a little here and little there?
I can only give you MY opinion and this is based on what I think constitutes a song-I used to think it was a collaboration, or that maybe somebody brought a song to Michael and he could change it up a bit-like you said above.

But since his death, I've seen interviews with a LOT of songwriters who brought him songs and/or worked with him-Will I Am, Teddy Riley, Akon, oh, I can't even think of their names since I'm not into current popular music. (and really haven't been since the early 90s)

But all of them would tell stories of bringing him "beats"-and he would listen to them, and the next day he had taken one of their "beats" and have complete melodies, harmonies, choruses, bridges and arrangements to go with it.

Now, to me, that's a song-the melodies, harmonies, etc.-I think he did all the work-their beats were inspirations.
 
On the songs that MJ collaborated on writing with, do you believe in most cases that he did the majority of it, or was he just the 'touch up' guy, just adding a little here and little there?

Probably he did both and everything in between as well. Each song has its own history.

Also do not forget that many of the songs he collaborated on weren't brought to him by other writers. Michael wrote the basic idea and then he included someone else to help him. Eg. Dangerous. Just because a song has co-writers other than Michael it does not mean that someone else had the idea of the song and not Michael.

I think during Invincible his co-writing was more just a "touch up", but earlier I think he was very much instrumental as a co-writer in most of his co-written songs.
 
respect77;4086577 said:
Michael wrote the basic idea and then he included someone else to help him. Eg. Dangerous. Just because a song has co-writers other than Michael it does not mean that someone else had the idea of the song and not Michael.

& the other way around:

“I didn’t know who Michael Jackson was – I wasn’t into that whole soul disco stuff. When Michael Jackson recorded it, he also added an extra melody line and a few extra lyrics, so they wanted to split the royalties – which is quite impossible. You can’t take a Beatles song and add a melody line, a few more lyrics, and ask for fifty percent.” (Chris Mosdell, co-writer of “Behind The Mask”)


So, I think that songwriting is a very tricky procedure & nοbody can be really sure about the royalties (apart from the involved parts).
 
mj_frenzy;4086585 said:
& the other way around:

“I didn’t know who Michael Jackson was – I wasn’t into that whole soul disco stuff. When Michael Jackson recorded it, he also added an extra melody line and a few extra lyrics, so they wanted to split the royalties – which is quite impossible. You can’t take a Beatles song and add a melody line, a few more lyrics, and ask for fifty percent.” (Chris Mosdell, co-writer of “Behind The Mask”)


So, I think that songwriting is a very tricky procedure & nοbody can be really sure about the royalties (apart from the involved parts).

I'm not sure what your point is with Behind the Mask which was basically the evolution of an already existing song. BTW, Mosdell only wrote lyrics to the original song, the music was written by Ryuichi Sakamoto who after Eric Clapton achieved success with Michael's version of the song later re-recorded Michael's version himself:

[video=youtube;hZpB2rBe7uQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZpB2rBe7uQ[/video]
 
I think Michael's credits for the Darkchild material on Invincible were maybe a stretch.
 
Agree that up until Invincible MJ wrote the majority of songs he was credited on.
 
respect77;4086618 said:
I'm not sure what your point is with Behind the Mask which was basically the evolution of an already existing song.

I referred to that song as an example to show that songwriting credits (royalties) can be deceitful.

Another example is “Heaven Can Wait”. A friend of Kenny Quiller left him a CD in his house with this song and Kenny later presented it to Teddy Riley. As a result, Quiller got a songwriting credit.

"Out of all respect for me, and because I found the song, Michael and Ted Riley and the other writers allotted me writers credit.”
(Kenny Quiller, co-writer of “Heaven Can Wait”).
 
I'm not sure what your point is with Behind the Mask which was basically the evolution of an already existing song. BTW, Mosdell only wrote lyrics to the original song, the music was written by Ryuichi Sakamoto who after Eric Clapton achieved success with Michael's version of the song later re-recorded Michael's version himself:


I always get a headache reading about the Behind The Mask case.
 
So, I think that songwriting is a very tricky procedure & n?body can be really sure about the royalties (apart from the involved parts).
Anybody can be credited for songwriting as long as they are registered at the copyright office. Some bands credit all of the members, even if a particular member had nothing to do with it. Many Lennon/McCartney songs were written separately, but they made an agreement to credit each other. Some add family members or friends to help them out financially. In the 1970s, James Brown credited some songs to his daughters (who were under 10 at the time) to get around the tax man. Some songwriters make deals to credit someone to get their songs recorded, like Colonel Parker did with Elvis Presley. Elvis never wrote songs. There's also the case of ghostwriters who get paid a fee for each song they write, but the songs are credited to someone else, who get the royalties. Songwriters for hire also get a fee, but they are usually credited although the songs are owned by someone else like a record label. Decades ago, label heads would add their names to songs of their acts to make money, often without the knowledge of the writer. In some cases, a performer who writes might write or co-write a song with another act who are on another label. They might decline a credit to avoid label politics, like the label might refuse the other act to release it with their act. This is also why some are not credited for singing and/or playing or they use a fake name.
 
Anybody can be credited for songwriting as long as they are registered at the copyright office. Some bands credit all of the members, even if a particular member had nothing to do with it. Many Lennon/McCartney songs were written separately, but they made an agreement to credit each other. Some add family members or friends to help them out financially. In the 1970s, James Brown credited some songs to his daughters (who were under 10 at the time) to get around the tax man. Some songwriters make deals to credit someone to get their songs recorded, like Colonel Parker did with Elvis Presley. Elvis never wrote songs. There's also the case of ghostwriters who get paid a fee for each song they write, but the songs are credited to someone else, who get the royalties. Songwriters for hire also get a fee, but they are usually credited although the songs are owned by someone else like a record label. Decades ago, label heads would add their names to songs of their acts to make money, often without the knowledge of the writer. In some cases, a performer who writes might write or co-write a song with another act who are on another label. They might decline a credit to avoid label politics, like the label might refuse the other act to release it with their act. This is also why some are not credited for singing and/or playing or they use a fake name.

Very insightful!
 
I'm sure there were times Michael just did touch ups with the person he was working with and vice versa.

Sometimes a producer may get a song writer credit for "writing" the music alone.
 
Anybody can be credited for songwriting as long as they are registered at the copyright office. Some bands credit all of the members, even if a particular member had nothing to do with it. Many Lennon/McCartney songs were written separately, but they made an agreement to credit each other. Some add family members or friends to help them out financially. In the 1970s, James Brown credited some songs to his daughters (who were under 10 at the time) to get around the tax man. Some songwriters make deals to credit someone to get their songs recorded, like Colonel Parker did with Elvis Presley. Elvis never wrote songs. There's also the case of ghostwriters who get paid a fee for each song they write, but the songs are credited to someone else, who get the royalties. Songwriters for hire also get a fee, but they are usually credited although the songs are owned by someone else like a record label. Decades ago, label heads would add their names to songs of their acts to make money, often without the knowledge of the writer. In some cases, a performer who writes might write or co-write a song with another act who are on another label. They might decline a credit to avoid label politics, like the label might refuse the other act to release it with their act. This is also why some are not credited for singing and/or playing or they use a fake name.

Thanks for these characteristic examples. I suppose there are other countless as well.

This is the reason that I never took too seriously the names that are listed in the songwriting credits.
 
Also, if someone samples another persons song, they get a song writing credit too (even if it's just like a small sample thats incorporated into the beat).
That's why sometimes sampled tracks have a long list of writers, too. They get a piece of the royalties.
 
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