Dangerous Tour 92 Vs 93

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So I've been thinking about this for the past few days and feel it deserves it's own thread for a number of reasons,

1: It seems to be a slightly separate issue to a possible Dangerous25 release because it throws up a whole litany of talking points and strong opinions all on it's own.

2: It's another issue that seems to divide opinion, both sides with pros and cons, but with fans on either side of the fence taking real umbrage with opposing arguments.

3: It's raised the usual and oft familiar fan jive-talk such as "should be thankful for what your given/get" and "as long as it's HD/Film, I really don't give a damn"

4: I could have replied in the Dangerous25 thread, posted a whole more bunch of videos, went back and forth, round and round in circles (which is probably what could happen here) and just completely derail it for the fans who are sick to death of this type of discussion.

Why MJ Beats started this rumor, I don't know? Was it simply something one of them said in gest, a frivolous throw-away comment that grew legs and took on a life of it's own? Possibly. But at the same time it throws up an interesting argument about something we could possibly get in the new year and after 6 years of sub-par releases, what is acceptable and to be expected at this point?

Would the possible release of possibly the weakest run of shows, well intended yes, and without meaning to tarnish anyone's wonderful memories of said shows, be a good move? Even in HD? A point that baffles me. As bad as some of the releases have been the past 6 years, they have managed to clear MJ's debt off within the first 3 years which is remarkable when you consider how much financial trouble he was in. But what then about the artistic integrity of it all? the legacy? the music? Surely the reason most of us are here and first and foremost the most important thing?

I want to make clear also that I'm not wholly against everything 93 where shows are concerned. I do really enjoy some of the performances, especially Jam 93 and how it evolved musically (the added synth bass really packs a punch) and also the added choreography to the closing bars, aswell as the way the pyro explosives are layered over MJ's image as he strikes a pose on 'go with it' spins and pops on 'Jam!' It's powerful. That said, Mexico Jam isn't one of the better ones in my opinion. I also really enjoy the Buenos Aries performance of Dangerous, and like the performance of WYBT from that show also.

For me the Mexico shows are lacking on quite a few levels and the 93 leg was dogged by problems, both technical and personal. Technically, WDAN and Beat It are removed (both tracks were removed after the Japan shows), although to be fair you've got Dangerous instead of Beat It which is probably good since it was the Dangerous Tour. The second tier hydraulic stage is absent, not that that is a major thing, quite minor I guess, Jenifer Batten is absent and her stand-in if memory serves tends to do that really annoying (like air guitar thing) of pretending to play the solo during BOW by over mimicking the solo.

Then there's MJ. Highly addicted by this point and under the influence during the shows, with that glazed-over despondent look like much of the 30th anniversary shows where his eyes are just blank at times. I'm not knocking him for it, I understand the reasons. He shouldn't have been on stage at all if you ask me as it effects everything, his dancing and vocals, his emotional state. The culmination of allegations, reproductive scalp surgery (can you imagine the pain of that) Dental infection and 2 molars removed (I've had 2 molars removed myself, not at the same time and it hurt like hell and was exhausted after it both times for days) and 3 days of a deposition between shows, like literally between shows where he was again quite clearly medicated and struggling to answer basic enough questions.

During 92 Michael was ill with throat and viral infections, but sporadically and nowhere near as ill as he was in 93. There was roughly 8 shows cancelled and rescheduled in 92 and roughly 20 shows cancelled in 93, many not rescheduled at all including the entire Australian leg and a show in India.

The first 9 shows in 92 featured Bad & TWYMMF, and both tracks would feature again in the 2 Japan 92 shows:
2 Munich shows, 2 Rotterdam shows, 2 Italian shows (more commonly referred to as the Rome and Monza shows), 1 Cologne show, 1 Oslo show and finally the 2 Japan shows.

These 2 Japan concerts from the Tokyo Dome are pretty intriguing, during the 31st December new years eve show MJ wished everyone a happy new year from his dressing room, Slash joined him for BOW and his band played Auld Lang Syne after Heal The World and Bad and TWYMMF are performed. The youtube footage looks quite good. That's certainly something I could get excited about seeing and ironically these are also indoor shows (something which we don't have) which would be great. Right on the cusp of 1993, but possibly with added 92 energy and oomph, with black Jam jacket. This is also possibly the show with the red striped pants & red shirt for MITM?

During the Toulouse 92 show In The Closet instrumental was played by the band as a tribute to Princess Stephanie of Monaco (the mystery girl from the song) who was a guest.

So my preference would be a 92 show, possibly the 7th, 8th or 9th concert performed depending on whats best, or the Japan New Years Eve concert, or possibly that Wembley show where the Jam and BOW promo-shot performances come from. Pack it with bonus performances. Include the In The Closet instrumental, Include the Dangerous performance from 93, include one of the best Jam 93's, Include Bad and TWYMMF if it's not already in the setlist.



So what would you want? I'll never ever buy into the concept of "I don't care so long as its HD!" Release a top quality performance and pack it with bonus features. As extensive and as good as is absolutely possible.

If you want a 93 show explain what it is about the 93 shows that makes them so appealing to you? What makes them superior than the 92 shows? What is it about the 92 shows that you don't like?

Or if your completely bored of this flogged dead horse, simply ignore.
 
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I am interested in the new years eve show, because of the reasons you listed and also because I have watched the Bucharest show so much that I would love to have something different that is a mix of 92' and 93'
 
The New Years Eve show is also possibly the show with the red shirt & red striped pants for MITM, well he performed 2 shows so I guess there's a 50/50 chance unless he wore it both nights. Obviously I'd like the performance to be as top notch as possible but the promo footage to the soundtrack of Jam on YouTube looks quite good. There certainly seems to be enough different elements to set it apart from the Bucharest show. I wouldn't be adverse to them taking the best elements from both Japan shows and tightly editing together a great DVD and also including as bonus features Jam- 93 because musically and visually it evolved, Dangerous from one of the 93 shows and the In The Closet instrumental.
 
The New Years Eve show is also possibly the show with the red shirt & red striped pants for MITM, well he performed 2 shows so I guess there's a 50/50 chance unless he wore it both nights. Obviously I'd like the performance to be as top notch as possible but the promo footage to the soundtrack of Jam on YouTube looks quite good. There certainly seems to be enough different elements to set it apart from the Bucharest show. I wouldn't be adverse to them taking the best elements from both Japan shows and tightly editing together a great DVD and also including as bonus features Jam- 93 because musically and visually it evolved, Dangerous from one of the 93 shows and the In The Closet instrumental.

He wore a black jacket for htw and mitm on the New Year's Eve show. And I think he did 7 or 8 shows in Tokyo. Musically, 93 shows were better but the 92 shows kicks too much ass
 
He wore a black jacket for htw and mitm on the New Year's Eve show. And I think he did 7 or 8 shows in Tokyo. Musically, 93 shows were better but the 92 shows kicks too much ass

Your spot on! Don't know how I missed that! Tokyo dates were 12th, 14th, 17th, 19th, 22nd, 24th, 30th & 31st all in December. I wonder what type of footage was captured from that Tokyo run? In the promo video we briefly see a rehersal clip of MJ in black HTW jacket. Yeah, I do agree that musically there was quite a few improvements in a lot of the music for the 93 leg. What I also love about Dangerous from the South American shows is that they also contain the bridge 'my baby left me here tonight' which is omitted thereafter.

49 concerts performed in 92 verses 27 concerts performed in 93, with almost an 8 month gap between legs.

A list of bonus features is probably something that will keep growing for me as I'm looking back over this tour and as a way to include as much new unreleased and unique content as possible and still including some highlights from 93. Will You Be There from Chile sees MJ wearing the Berlin Jacket that he wore in that promotional photo that was also featured in the promo sticker on later editions of the HIStory album.

As of now, bonus features:
Jam 93
Dangerous 93
WYBT Berlin Jacket version
In The Closet Instrumental
Remember The Time: Soul Train performance
MITM red shirt version.

I realise an alternative piece of clothing isn't a massive deal, but with MJ, because the basic framework of the show is pretty much the same it drives me to want anything that's anyway one-off. It's pointless if it's a carbon copy of the Bucharest DVD. It's got to be better with more content. The main show should also include the Carmina Burana/Brace Yourself teaser as seen on the jumbo screens. That really adds to the show and sets up the intro to jam.
 
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The more shows there are in one place, the likelihood that their is enough to document a full concert release increases of course.. always could mean the opposite just like Aintree 1988.. who knows, but the footage in 'The One' docu looks badass albeit just being from one camera angle
 
Not quite sure what you mean when you say 'could mean the opposite like Aintree' ?? Which footage from The One are you speaking about? The Bad Tour footage?
 
@ Skywalk. It was rumoured that Mexico's last night was filmed and part of this rumour was saying MJ had it filmed as his Farewell show, which is utter nonsense. There the weakest run of shows from the weaker leg of the tour (specifally South America/Mexico) for very understanble reasons, at least in my own opinion.

@ MattyJam. I would almost welcome a HIStory Tour release over a Mexico 93 show, but I think MJ's best performed concerts should take presedence over his not so great performed concerts, ie Destiny, Triumph, Victory, Bad88/89,Dangerous 92. Should be priorities. HIStory never quite translated well onto the screen for me, although there's moments from HIStory shows I enjoy and I love some of the amateur shot shows, Amsterdam being one of them.
 
Why does it have to be a choice between Mexico 1993 or the HIStory tour when MJ had so many great concerts? It's almost as if they deliberately go for the most controversial performances.

I don't think I would buy either Mexico 1993 or a HIStory Tour DVD/Blue-ray. I would buy anything else.
 
Why does it have to be a choice between Mexico 1993 or the HIStory tour when MJ had so many great concerts? It's almost as if they deliberately go for the most controversial performances.

I don't think I would buy either Mexico 1993 or a HIStory Tour DVD/Blue-ray. I would buy anything else.

And if they do release the HIStory Tour it'll probably be Munich 1997. The weakest performance on the HIStory Tour
 
If the estate want to keep the musical and performing legacy of MJ they should release nothing from the HIStory world tour, any footage I have ever seen of the tour MJ is clearly going through the motions and the performances are completely lacklustre.
 
1992 is the best, I wish they would release early concert from 1992.
 
I would like Munich, Oslo or Tokyo, should be the best, and also bring full setlist, now in 1993, the plus is Dangerous, the concert would be Fukuoka in that case
 
Why does it have to be a choice between Mexico 1993 or the HIStory tour when MJ had so many great concerts? It's almost as if they deliberately go for the most controversial performances.
who does? if you're talking about the estate, nothing has even come close to being announced that they're gonna release any of those. some fans are the ones who wants to believe that they deliberately go for the most controversial performances, and then they shove it down everyone else's throats, just because they (the estate) don't give them what they want, because apparently they only want to be negative and bitch, no matter what. no matter what the estate does, there is no way that they will ever be able to satisfy each and everyone of us. it's just not possible, and there will always be someone complaining
 
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there was something else i was goin to quote, but i'm not gonna.....i'm just gonna say that i think some fans are way WAY too critical of MJ :sad2:
 
For extras on a possible DVD, I think you could include the entire Super Bowl halftime show, the Presidential Inauguration, and MJ's performance of "You Were There" at the Sammy Davis Jr B-day special.
 
who does? if you're talking about the estate, nothing has even come close to being announced that they're gonna release any of those. some fans are the ones who wants to believe that they deliberately go for the most controversial performances, and then they shove it down everyone else's throats, just because they (the estate) don't give them what they want, because apparently they only want to be negative and bitch, no matter what. no matter what the estate does, there is no way that they will ever be able to satisfy each and everyone of us. it's just not possible, and there will always be someone complaining

Well, Branca did talk about History tour being released to the theaters. And now MJ Beats claims they are contemplating the release of a show where MJ was drugged and at the lowest point of his life. I do not trust MJ Beats that much, so I really hope the Estate has more common sense than that.

And no, I am not "bitching about everything" and I am far from being negative about everything, but cannot we have preferences for releases? Cannot we voice our opinions without being told that we are "bitching" just because we are not equally enthusiastic about everything? There are countless of performances where MJ impresses, so I'd rather want the release of those and MJ to be represented at his best when it comes to an official, high profile release, not drugged up or blatantly lip-syncing through the full show. Of course, people also have the right to be enthusiastic about Mexico'93 or History tour, but based on board discussions these are by far the most controversial shows even among fans, so no, I don't think it would be a good idea to release exactly these shows in some high profile official release.

there was something else i was goin to quote, but i'm not gonna.....i'm just gonna say that i think some fans are way WAY too critical of MJ :sad2:

Michael had good days and bad days like everyone else. Not everything he did was equally good. And if not everything he did was equally great then it is natural that we want the best performances to represent him, not the worst. At least I do. When people want his best performances to represent him to a bigger public it is not being "way to critical of MJ", it is simply pointing out the natural fact that he had bad days, like everyone else, and those are not the ones which should represent him as a live performer in a release. We all understand why he was in that shape in Mexico'93 and we are all empathic to him. But it does not change the performance itself and the circumstances of it which would only draw attention to negativities if released officially.
 
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Well, Branca did talk about History tour being released to the theaters. And now MJ Beats claims they are contemplating the release of a show where MJ was drugged and at the lowest point of his life. I do not trust MJ Beats that much, so I really hope the Estate has more common sense than that.
yeah...rumors? MJ Beats has nothing to do with what's being released officially, do they? and if they release that concert themselves, or if the estate does, thankfully, no one is forcing us to get it. since they're (MJ Beats) not connected with MJ in any way official, if they do release that concert, it has nothing to do with the estate, so it's not their (the estates) fault if some fan release something that they wouldn't release themselves

And no, I am not "bitching about everything" and I am far from being negative about everything, but cannot we have preferences for releases? Cannot we voice our opinions without being told that we are "bitching" just because we are not equally enthusiastic about everything?
i didn't say you were bitching. i was talking about fans in general, who are being negative about every single thing. of course we can voice our opinion, i never said that we can't? i'm far from equally enthusiastic about everything. the only thing i'm happy about they have released since MJ death, is Wembley 88 DVD...so....

There are countless of performances where MJ impresses, so I'd rather want the release of those and MJ to be represented at his best when it comes to an official, high profile release, not drugged up or blatantly lip-syncing through the full show. Of course, people also have the right to be enthusiastic about Mexico'93 or History tour, but based on board discussions these are by far the most controversial shows even among fans, so no, I don't think it would be a good idea to release exactly these shows in some high profile official release.
based on what i have heard about Mexico 93, i wouldn't even watch it, if it ever does get out there somehow, by whoever...of course i don't want to see him drugged up and suffering like he did. i don't mind HIStory tour though, i love and watch those concerts as much as bad and dangerous concerts...i would be as excited if they released a HIStory concert that we don't already have, as i would if they released a bad or dangerous concert that we don't have already... the lip sync doesn't bother me at all. it never has. i know it bothers some fans, but i'm not one of them...each to their own. i just think it's a shame that some fans completely refuse to even watch it, for that reason alone...and then go on and bash the whole tour, based on that 1 reason? there's so much more to his performances and shows than singing, and that's enough, for me, to enjoy the concerts anyway, even when lip syncin through the whole show...but maybe that's just me :unsure:
when he DID sing live on HIStory tour, it didn't always sound good, because his voice was hoarse. and at those times, to be honest, i'd rather hear playback than him singing with a voice like that, it didn't sound very good, to say the least. i like his voice when it's perfect. playback or not

Michael had good days and bad days like everyone else. Not everything he did was equally good. Acting like everything MJ ever did was equally great is not being honest to ourselves. And if not everything he did was equally great then it is natural that we want the best performances to represent him, not the worst. At least I do. When people want his best performances to represent him to a bigger public it is not being "way to critical of MJ", it is simply pointing out the natural fact that he had bad days, like everyone else, and those are not the ones which should represent him as a live performer in a release. We all understand why he was in that shape in Mexico'93 and we are all empathic to him. But it does not change the performance itself and the circumstances of it which would only draw attention to negativities if released officially.
i'm not saying that he didn't have bad days....and that everything he did was equally good, no, and i'm not acting like it was...i've never said it was...i don't think it was...and it's perfectly normal to be critical of your heroes. i admit, i do have a hard time being critical of him, and i always have...but i'm not saying he's like this perfect angel that never ever did anything wrong/bad in his whole entire life, that's not at all what i'm saying. not all his work is equally good in my eyes and ears...it's not...and sometimes he screw up during a performance....he's only human, and it's human to fail
 
Hats off to the OP- great topic and great first post, too long to quote.

In my opinion, for the sake of difference I am divided regarding a 92 show vs a 93 show for some reasons. (I am completely disregarding HD/quality from my opinions- I expect everything to be PRO. Anything after that is a bonus).

Firstly, we have Bucharest 92, and I'm sure a lot of us know the show inside out, back the front and upside down. It's a fantastic show and it's undeniable that his energy is second to none on this. Major drawbacks for me on the official release are the crowd noises. It's beyond ridiculous but not as bad as MSG '01.

I would prefer a 93 release over a show with this set list, but only this set list. Ideally, I would prefer as mentioned above, the show with the most songs played, especially Bad and TWYMMF. The 93 show is still good, I enjoy Buenos Aires but it's still not on the level of Bucharest. Any show missing Beat It, WDAN amd Jennifer Batten seems incomplete to me. The addition of Dangerous is cool, but we already have that now- we've seen the 93 tour version. The 1992 early/tokyo shows would be my ideal choice because we all know that MJ had more energy and less issues around this time than those later 93 shows.

The only thing that 93 beats 92 on is that Jacket. The black jacket to me is the Michael Jackson I think of because of the HIStory booklet of him mid air after the toaster jump.

Mainly when it comes to a concert release, my main priority is the audio. If I can rip a beautiful audio concert I am happy. I don't get to watch concerts a lot- barely ever after first watch because of my schedule, but I get to listen to my iPod in my car and running. If we get a show released hopefully it will be the full Mcoy, with Bad and TWYMMF with maybe a couple of 93 bonus videos like said above, eg. Jam, Dangerous etc.

Regarding the HIStory tour release- if something is being lined up just because they recorded it in the highest possible quality rather than the quality of the performance given, then it would just be another brick in the wall bastardising Michael's work prioritising gimmicks and technology over the art itself. I would lose even more faith in the estate and further cement my belief that the current ideal of the estate is to make a quick buck without even considering the longterm effects on the legacy of Michael Jackson.
 
yeah...rumors? MJ Beats has nothing to do with what's being released officially, do they? and if they release that concert themselves, or if the estate does, thankfully, no one is forcing us to get it. since they're (MJ Beats) not connected with MJ in any way official, if they do release that concert, it has nothing to do with the estate, so it's not their (the estates) fault if some fan release something that they wouldn't release themselves

Consider my comment in the context of the conversation. I simply reacted to the post above me saying:

@ MattyJam. I would almost welcome a HIStory Tour release over a Mexico 93 show, but I think MJ's best performed concerts should take presedence over his not so great performed concerts, ie Destiny, Triumph, Victory, Bad88/89,Dangerous 92. Should be priorities. HIStory never quite translated well onto the screen for me, although there's moments from HIStory shows I enjoy and I love some of the amateur shot shows, Amsterdam being one of them.

No one said this was a definite fact that the Estate wanted to release Mexico'93. I personally doubt it because I think they have better judgement than that. Well, I hope at least. But because of the rumour started by MJ Beats people are actively discussing Mexico'93 now as a possible release.


i don't mind HIStory tour though, i love and watch those concerts as much as bad and dangerous concerts...i would be as excited if they released a HIStory concert that we don't already have, as i would if they released a bad or dangerous concert that we don't have already... the lip sync doesn't bother me at all. it never has. i know it bothers some fans, but i'm not one of them...each to their own. i just think it's a shame that some fans completely refuse to even watch it, for that reason alone...and then go on and bash the whole tour, based on that 1 reason? there's so much more to his performances and shows than singing, and that's enough, for me, to enjoy the concerts anyway, even when lip syncin through the whole show...but maybe that's just me :unsure:
when he DID sing live on HIStory tour, it didn't always sound good, because his voice was hoarse. and at those times, to be honest, i'd rather hear playback than him singing with a voice like that, it didn't sound very good, to say the least. i like his voice when it's perfect. playback or not

I get it that there are people who are not bothered by the lip syncing or who even love the History tour. That does not change the fact though that many fans feel it is MJ's worst tour and thus it is MJ's most controversial tour among fans. That is a simple fact when you look at past threads about it on this board and elsewhere. So my point is simply that something as controversial is not what should represent MJ in a high profile theater release. Wouldn't we rather want something that is more universally praised and liked within the fandom? But I don't want to go through the whole History tour debate again. It has been discussed through countless of threads already.
 
I get it that there are people who are not bothered by the lip syncing or who even love the History tour. That does not change the fact though that many fans feel it is MJ's worst tour and thus it is MJ's most controversial tour among fans. That is a simple fact when you look at past threads about it on this board and elsewhere. So my point is simply that something as controversial is not what should represent MJ in a high profile theater release. Wouldn't we rather want something that is more universally praised and liked within the fandom? But I don't want to go through the whole History tour debate again. It has been discussed through countless of threads already.

Without expanding on the possibility of this debate happening here, everything said here is correct for me. Releasing a HIStory tour before the others would be a mistake. We can see here alone the divide it causes, why expand this to the general public? For every person who sees a HIStory Tour show that enjoys it and thinks it's great, there will be another person who thinks it's too much lip-sync and will detract from Michael's public status as being a great live performer.

Mexico 93 has alos divided this board very much so due to the various controversies surrounding the time. It's beyond me why anyone would consider releasing something that A. Would cause controversy, more fan-group boycotts etc. and B. That does not take into account that "If Michael were here, would he release this as it is- could it create a negative backlash for his image, legacy etc.?

I love the HIStory tour for what it is, and should be released down the line. But as it stands, Michael is still not gone long enough to release something that for his standards is subpar (when I say subpar, I mean of a lower performance standard of other options) without affecting his status. In a few years after several other shows highlighting his actual best abilities and performances this could be reviewed, having already given a good perception of Michael as a live performer to the general public.
 
^^My preference for years was the black Jam jacket but in the past 5-ish years or so I've reverted back to the sparkly Jam jacket as I feel personally MJ absolutely kills it during the 92 shows.

Also, I have to agree with so much of what respect77 says.
 
currently obsessed with the Buenos Aires concert. SUCH an amazing concert, I just love it
 
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