How MJ's Public Appearances Influenced His Career

Tony R

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Sometimes I think MJ got off on doing things like this. There are just too many examples of it in his career for it to be unintentional. I mean, he followed up the biggest selling album of all time with an album called Bad, he had a single called Black or White at a time when the world was questionning his changing skin colour, on the back of the HIStory album he had a special dedication to "the children of the world." I think calling a song The Lost Children was just another example of MJ pioneering what we know refer to as "trolling."

Yeah he definitely had a F-ck You side to him. Many times I remember shouting at the TV telling him to stop as he was just giving his critics fodder. The children dedication in HIStory being a good example, and in the extreme side appearing on Living with with Gavin and we all know how that turned out.
 
Yeah, I think a lot of people thought it was his naivety, but I think it was a deliberate thing. I'll live my life on my terms and I don't care what you think etc. I kinda liked that about him, but yeah, he definately did make things easier for himself in that regard.

Indeed, but he no doubt screwed his career by sticking to it. Remember the wheelchair and post it notes incident a few weeks before the TII announcement?
 
The post-it notes one was my favourite. That was genius.

Yeah, but then we have threads why MJ isn't always given credit by so called serious musos. That's why!

But like you say if he/you/me don't give a rat called Ben's ass what people think then it doesn't matter. But the other half of me always wished that people would see the musical genius more. But when he gives the press fodder like this and countless other incidents then they're not going to write about the music.

E.g. This thread is about Invincible, not many journos will focus on the songs when you have him on a bus making Devil horns and calling his record boss racist.
 
I think he just loved the drama and performance of it all. There was a great and very telling outtake from the Bashir documentary where MJ is talking about how he is always performing even offstage and Bashir says "this is a performance right now, isn't it?" and Michael grins.

Yeah, I firmly believe that none of us really know anything at all about MJ and his whole life was an act. Like I think he referenced in Moonwalk, he wanted to be like PT Barnum, the Greatest Show on Earth. Everything he said was considered for maximum impact.

And, in the end I'm not sure even he knew where Michael the performer ended and the real Michael began. After playing that role for 40 years the line was very blurred.
 
I was watching an interview with Bowie on Parkinson the other day, from around 2003 or so, and he said exactly the same thing. That he considered Bowie an act, a performance, and he didn't really think there was anything left of David Jones.

And obviously with MJ, it was magnified times a million, considered his deity-style fan worship and unprecendented levels of fame. I think he also referenced how he wanted to be like Howard Hughes, the strange man holed up in the mansion (remind you of a certain 1996 mini-movie?).

Yes it does remind me of a 1996 mini movie. It was called Ghosts and starred Michael Jackson. He played many characters including the White, fat mayor. It's excellent.

??

But I think Ghosts was the most painfully honest he ever was. That whole period of Childhood, Ghosts, Morphine, Scream, Stranger in Moscow, Is it Scary was his most autobiographical ever. And showed me that he actually knew how many perceived him.

The whole 'freaky boy' part in Ghosts still makes my heart bang with sadness.
 
That's why HIStory is my favourite MJ album/era. Blows everything else out of the water as far as I'm concerned.

Creatively and musically, you may well be right.

Ghosts
BOTDF EP
Earth song - song and short film
scream - short film
TDCAU - song and Brazil film
Stranger in Moscow - song and film

Only the tour failed it.
 
Re: The problems with Invincible

Love all of those things. And the BOTD video was cool as well.

And as flawed as it was, HWT did have some redeeming features, such as the brilliant choreography for TDCAU, Billie Jean had so many amazing little nuances by that point, the Earth Song performances were very emotionally charged and I loved all the staging for the encore, with the flags waving and the marching band members playing the drums etc. I thought that was brilliant. And the space rocket entrance was pretty cool too. With live vocals it would've been better than the Dangerous tour imo.

Agree with all that except the space rocket intro.

Standing there waiting, the film seemed to last an eternity and then the rocket coming up at that strange angle reminded me of a scared 16 year old struggling to perform in bed.
 
Not being funny or anything, but saying the History tour would be better than the Dangerous tour if it had live vocals is like saying the Invincible album would be greater than Bad if it had better songs.

No. Because if you liked everything else about it, i.e. The set list, choreography, his interaction with the crowd and special effects and was only the miming that let it down, then it's a more than fair point.
 
Re: The problems with Invincible

Yeah, I think a lot of people thought it was his naivety, but I think it was a deliberate thing. I'll live my life on my terms and I don't care what you think etc. I kinda liked that about him, but yeah, he definately didn't make things easier for himself in that regard.
I wouldn't consider it trolling, but definitely the rebel side. Where you say things that may or may not be true because of the principal of the thing. I admired the hell out of him for it, at the same time I'd scream at the tv screen to stop it.
Interesting conversation. What is the post it notes episode?
 
Re: The problems with Invincible

I wouldn't consider it trolling, but definitely the rebel side. Where you say things that may or may not be true because of the principal of the thing. I admired the hell out of him for it, at the same time I'd scream at the tv screen to stop it.
Interesting conversation. What is the post it notes episode?

A few weeks before TII announcement he was popping up occasionally, one of the times he was in a wheelchair with what appeared to be post it notes stuck to his face.

Yes you read that right.

I can't find pics but I'm sure someone will have some.

I found it very annoying as I was hoping he would try to build a much more normal image for himself.
 
Re: The problems with Invincible

jackson.jpg


I believe he was in a bookstore with the kids at the time.

That's the one!
 
Re: The problems with Invincible

A few weeks before TII announcement he was popping up occasionally, one of the times he was in a wheelchair with what appeared to be post it notes stuck to his face.

Yes you read that right.

I can't find pics but I'm sure someone will have some.

I found it very annoying as I was hoping he would try to build a much more normal image for himself.
Ah, I needed my memory jogged. I remember the wheel chair but not the post-its. Maybe I never saw it close enough but I do remember kinda rolling my eyes. I figured it was just to get people talking about him. But I didn't take that stuff seriously. I would just be annoyed that people did.
What was the headline with this? "Michael Jackson has alzheimers and has to write post its to himself"?

Looks like he stole Bill Bray's hat. :)
 
Re: The problems with Invincible

Ah, I needed my memory jogged. I remember the wheel chair but not the post-its. Maybe I never saw it close enough but I do remember kinda rolling my eyes. I figured it was just to get people talking about him. But I didn't take that stuff seriously. I would just be annoyed that people did.
Looks like he stole Bill Bray's hat. :)

It always pisses me off. Michael Jackson is a frigging musical genius not a wacky, comedy character. This sort of behaviour just plays into their hands.
 
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Re: The problems with Invincible

It always pisses me off. Michael Jackson is a fogging musical genius not a wacky, comedy character. This sort of behaviour just plays into their hands.
I get it. I won't deny that it pissed me off as well-that's why I'm glad that they made the 'Off the Wall' doc-so people can finally see the real side.
That's the Michael I always saw and heard all the subsequent years-a workaholic perfectionist who lived and breathed music-not the deity stuff, not the man-child stuff.
 
Re: The problems with Invincible

Very, very interesting convo and funny as well. You all had me rollin' at the NIN "covers" portion lol.

I do believe some of the incidents you guys mentioned stem from Michael's occasionally problematic relationship with mystery, but also his peculiar sense of humor. I thought the post-it stuff was completely hilarious, while with the Zorro mask he was completely cute :lol: And btw of trolling, didn't Pharrell call him the "king of trolling" the other year? I think he was on to something with that comment there.........

On a serious note now, I was incredibly proud of his Oxford speech in 2001 when he didn't back down from his focus on children in spite of all the headlines. I thought that was very brave of him. His determination to walk to the rhythm of his own drum is one of the things I love most about him. Ghosts is another great example of his bravery and artistic boldness. Not only was the man acutely aware of people's perception of him, but also songs like We've had enough prove his grasp of reality and truly important issues. Not bad for a guy supposedly out of touch, not bad at all.

I do think he considered his entire life a work of art and the greatest show on earth, but perhaps he sometimes needed reminding that entertainment was merely his day job; however sublime and reassuring a setting it may have been, it didn't provide for fullness of life. Thankfully, he found that in fatherhood and the moments he didn't need to share with the world.
 
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Re: The problems with Invincible

jackson.jpg


I believe he was in a bookstore with the kids at the time.

he was the only one who could do this and still look FABOLOUS. way to go Michael for having the courage to do whatever the hell you wanted, and not give a crap what people think. it's hilarious how even some fans are butthurt over this, yet it's sad to see them turn to tabloid junk. I guess that's because they're just jealous for not having that courage
image-54fcc7d4623b6-137335.jpg
 
Re: The problems with Invincible

Very, very interesting convo and funny as well. You all had me rollin' at the NIN "covers" portion lol.

I do believe some of the incidents you guys mentioned stem from Michael's occasionally problematic relationship with mystery, but also his peculiar sense of humor. I thought the post-it stuff was completely hilarious, while with the Zorro mask he was completely cute :lol: And btw of trolling, didn't Pharrell call him the "king of trolling" the other year? I think he was on to something with that comment there.........

On a serious note now, I was incredibly proud of his Oxford speech in 2001 when he didn't back down from his focus on children in spite of all the headlines. I thought that was very brave of him. His determination to walk to the rhythm of his own drum is one of the things I love most about him. Ghosts is another great example of his bravery and artistic boldness. Not only was the man acutely aware of people's perception of him, but also songs like We've had enough prove his grasp of reality and truly important issues. Not bad for a guy supposedly out of touch, not bad at all.

I do think he considered his entire life a work of art and the greatest show on earth, but perhaps he sometimes needed reminding that entertainment was merely his day job; however sublime and reassuring a setting it may have been, it didn't provide for fullness of life. Thankfully, he found that in fatherhood and the moments he didn't need to share with the world.

The king of pop, rock and troll!!

I agree with you about the Oxford Speech. Although things like that, the HIStory dedication and kids on stage at VMAs didn't do him any favours, you have to give him kudos for sticking to his guns. That takes balls.

The other stuff though just gives ammunition to those who think he'd lost his mind by then.

I see the whole he did what he wanted to do argument, but I just want people to focus on his music and genius not this sort of crap. It got pretty hard to justify.

Back in the early 90s, it was the same with Madonna and to an extent Prince.

Madonna in 1992 did herself no favours with pushing the sexual boundaries especially with her SEX book that totally overshadowed her stunning Erotica album.

Why would the press talk about the music when they have naked pictures of her frolicking with Naomi Campbell to leer over?

And then Prince with his no talking, Slave face and changing his name to a unpronounceable symbol phase.
 
Yeah, they all had their moments, didn't they?

But MJs were more serious and potentially a lot more damaging. My personal take on it is that MJ knew exactly what he was doing when he courted a lot of the controversy and he simply no longer cared. Like his refusal to change his lifestyle choices post-93 on Diane Sawyer and Martin Bashir interviews. There is no way he didn't know by 2002 how unorthodox and controversial some of his opinions were, but he was ambivalent to his critics. I think he deliberately sought to challenge the status quo, but he went too far with it and paid a dear price for it come 2005.

I think the lyrics to Xscape describe perfectly MJs ambivalence towards those who judged his lifestyle choices.

"Why is it I can't do whatever I want to,
when it's my personal life and I don't live for you,
so don't you try to tell me what is right for me,
just be concerned about you, I can do what I want to."


Now THOSE are lyrics that I buy from Michael Jackson in his mid-forties, not "shortly really wanna be there for me."

Brilliant insight.

Whole heartedly agree.

He was as stubborn as an ox and you have to admire that. But as a fan it was hard to defend and like we've said definitely damaged his career.

This is why I don't buy the Sony killed Invincible rubbish. It was a mix of behaviour and the fact that the record wasn't up to his usual stellar standard and didn't sound like him (lyric wise).

It's also a reason why lyrics to Privacy annoy me (plus the fact that it's his worst song ever). If he doesn't want press attention then don't do things to attract it.

But like I say kudos to him for sticking by his principles in other areas e.g his love for kids. Even dancing with the boy from Olodum in TDCAU, many would have shied away.
 
I think it all goes back to the discussion we were having yesterday about MJ not knowing where MJ the entertainer ended and MJ the human being began. I think with HIStory he had a justifiable reason to attack the media and to feel ostracized. By 2001, it appeared to many as if MJ was just refusing to learn any lessons and so he was ripe for the picking. In some respects it's admirable to show such conviction and strength of character in the face of mass adversity and public condemnation, but it's frustrating as hell to watch history repeat itself.

I think the media and the public would've been a lot more sympathetic post-93 had MJ of changed his ways, but I think Michael took 1993 as a personal attack on the very fibre of his belief system, and he dug his heels in even more.

I think that's why MJ listed Unbreakable as his favourite song from Invincible; lyrically it touches upon everything we've discussed in this thread and is his personal statement of defiance.

I think he was going to 'make that change' in 1993, and was heart warming. I mean Oprah and the Grammys speech where he totally humanised himself and America really warmed to him and Dangerous zoomed up the charts again.

The allegations put a stop to that and after that he never really recovered in many ways that I probably shouldn't talk about here. But yes I think it nearly did happen,
 
Some interesting points made here.

I think Michael refused to change after 1993 because he knew he hadn't done anything wrong. I mean, many people side-eyed him for settling with the Chandlers, and it would've looked like a massive admission of guilt if all of a sudden he never wanted anything to do with children anymore. He was damned no matter what he did after 1993, such is the seriousness of what he was accused of. I don't think it mattered what MJ said or did after 93, things were never going to be the same.

As a fan, I may wish he'd done certain things differently at times, but I am glad he never apologised for being who he was and continued fighting and trying to shine a light on children's issues. The fact that he continued doing this at a detrimental cost to his public image only proved to me how deeply and sincerely he cared about these things.

Huh? That makes absolutely no sense!
 
Re: The problems with Invincible

jackson.jpg


I believe he was in a bookstore with the kids at the time.

Hahaha this is hilarious , but to be honest I do think he did this just out of boredom or for more "drama " But MJ definetly could be
so funny and I think deep down he knew this .
 
Fiona;4133564 said:
Some interesting points made here.

I think Michael refused to change after 1993 because he knew he hadn't done anything wrong. I mean, many people side-eyed him for settling with the Chandlers, and it would've looked like a massive admission of guilt if all of a sudden he never wanted anything to do with children anymore. He was damned no matter what he did after 1993, such is the seriousness of what he was accused of. I don't think it mattered what MJ said or did after 93, things were never going to be the same.

As a fan, I may wish he'd done certain things differently at times, but I am glad he never apologised for being who he was and continued fighting and trying to shine a light on children's issues. The fact that he continued doing this at a detrimental cost to his public image only proved to me how deeply and sincerely he cared about these things.

Absolutely!!! Would it really have mattered at all what Michael (allegedly) did, or when he (supposedly) did it? There are people who still think he must have been guilty of something, if not already having had doubts about his innocence, in either one of both cases. Some will never be fully convinced of the fact that he was found “not guilty” (which, to the average person, means the same thing as being found “innocent”), even though he had been acquitted of committing any crimes against anyone. And, there are those who believe that he simply got off scot-free, partly because he paid to have the best attorneys representing him, due to his celebrity status and the (mostly negative) attention the media gave each case.

Speaking of the media, they were questioning everything about his physical appearance and his “weird,” “eccentric” behavior from “Thriller” onwards, from the very moment he had achieved his greatest commercial success. Shortly thereafterwards, certain tabloids started referring to him by one of THE worst, most derogatory slurs anyone could ever be called - a play on words using the family’s last name* (*one specifically unique to him, which had a lot to do with assumptions and erroneous mis-perceptions made in regards to what his obvious state of mind and mental health may have been, rather than making any reference to his race or ethnicity, as some mistakenly choose to believe) - a slur I will not repeat, here.

The so-called “journalists” who have written a number of various articles, books, online “blogs” and so forth about him, have gotten some things right, but also have gotten other things wrong about him as well. Since he is no longer here with us to defend himself, nor to speak up in his own behalf - and, he hasn’t been, for several years, now - those who truly, genuinely knew him well had to have spoken for him, to restore and protect his reputation. That’s the only way his fans, and the general public as a whole, would get to finally learn the truth about him. The media have been slandering Michael, and outright lying about him, for way too long, now.
 
A thread on a mj forum mocking him makes no sense

No-one is "mocking" MJ. Come on, we all love him here and we're allowed to have respectful conversations about aspects of Michael's life such as this. You can't simply refer to anything slightly negative about Michael to "mocking" and then shut it out. Michael had his ups and downs and, being a Michael Jackson forum, every side is going to be discussed which I think is perfectly valid so long as it's relatively respectful, which so far it is (besides, if it wasn't respectful and actually was mocking Michael, the mods would swarm in here and shut everyone's asses down ahah).

way to go Michael for having the courage to do whatever the hell you wanted, and not give a crap what people think. it's hilarious how even some fans are butthurt over this, yet it's sad to see them turn to tabloid junk. I guess that's because they're just jealous for not having that courage

I've got the general feeling that people are all for Michael for not giving a damn what other people think of him. I don't think anyone here is criticizing him for having this mindset, but more so his behaviours that potentially arose from this mindset. I think it's silly to disregard his fans complaints as them being "butthurt" though, when they are actually pretty valid.

There is a huge problem out there where Michael Jackson is often not taken seriously as an artist and one reason is because of the many of the antics the tabloids printed. Of course, many stories are ridiculously fake (that goes without saying) but when he goes out in public with post-it notes on his face or in a wheelchair with his face covered in an unusual way, it does nothing but give the tabloids more ammunition to tear his credibility down and push public perception of him towards "circus freak" (ugh) instead of the incredible, serious musical genius that he is.

Michael probably did stop giving a shit sometime and you know, good for him, everyone here is fine with that, more power to him! ...but unfortunately, some of the behaviour that arose from this where Michael didn't care or was possibly trolling did have repercussions on his public image and I think these are very much valid issues when it comes to Michael Jackson as an artist, especially when we as fans want people to start treating him with the respect he deserves for his musicianship.
 
and it would've looked like a massive admission of guilt if all of a sudden he never wanted anything to do with children anymore. He was damned no matter what he did after 1993, such is the seriousness of what he was accused of.

Huh? That makes absolutely no sense!

I think it's because if Michael was accused of child molestation then suddenly backed off children after he paid off a family, people would interpret him as Michael knowing he had been "caught", and thus stopping his behaviour so he's not caught again or something. Some might even assume he's keeping his love for children "private", something stupid like that.

But honestly, Michael couldn't win regardless. I mean if he did stop, you'd having people thinking the above. If he kept going with his usual behaviours, you'd have idiots assuming he just kept paying off families while doing his "dirty deeds" with children, simply because he continued to associate heavily with children in public.

He just couldn't win... not after an accusation that serious. People would always twist his attitudes and behaviours into something to suit their agenda.
 
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I truly don't understand how you can say these things :no:
 
Michael's words apparently means nothing to you people. seems you'd much rather believe the tabloids, or what others has said about him. wow :( you completely ignore what he has said himself? why? I don't get it
 
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