What exactly was so groundbreaking about MJ's MUSIC?

Psychoniff

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I was having a discussion with a very good friend of mine a day or two ago. So as we discussed in length about the recent Off The Wall documentary which he (not being an MJ) thought the Off The Wall was probably the 'greatest' album that pushed the sonics of popular music in the postmodern era. I being a fan said that I wasn't particularly disagreeing with him, but then he went into a full scale rant about how MJ rode the tales of Off The Wall with Thriller and that MUSICALLY speaking there wasn't much mj did after Off The Wall that was MUSICALLY groundbreaking.

He talked a lot about the Beatles being revolutionary for their albums, Revolver and Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band both pushing the boundaries of songwriting like production and studio techniques like looping and lyrical ambiguity and album-orientated rock music. He explained that Elvis combining rockabilly, country, blues, gospel and rock-n-roll to a white audience. He pointed out that Bob Dylan's folk music was influential. And also others like The Ramones (punk), Black Sabbath (hard-rock), Rakim (rapping technique multi-syllable) Public Enemy (hip hop production), and that James Brown, Sly and the Family Stone, Parliament/Funkadelic (funk) were clear in their musical groundbreaking efforts.

I couldn't really think of what bar music videos, dancing and fashion what mj post Off The Wall was influential for MUSICALLY.

Can someone please explain how post Off The Wall MUSICALLY MJ was groundbreaking?

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LET'S CLEAR THINGS UP;

Innovate - to do something in a new way : to have new ideas about how something can be done

Influence - the power to change or affect someone or something : the power to cause changes without directly forcing them to happen
: a person or thing that affects someone or something in an important way


Groundbreaking - introducing new ideas or methods

These terms seem similar in meaning to me, so I think it's safe to say we don't need to get into petty arguments about semantics.
 
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1. MJ is the reason for the music industry as we know it, literally every mainstream/popular artist male or female is trying and failing to be " the next MJ" by mimicking his sound, vocal hiccups, falsetto, etc.
2. The Beatles are great (the first really popular boyband), but I see very little of their influence in the current music industry.
3. Elvis couldn't even write his own music.
4. The other people he named are great, but overall they aren't on MJ's level ( they never became a worldwide phenomenon like MJ).
5. Your friend sounds like an MJ hater, which highly invalidates his opinion.
6. This thread is going to be a battleground.
 
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1. MJ is the reason for music as we know it.
2. The Beatles are great but I see very little of their influence in the current music industry.
3. Elvis couldn't even write music.
4. Your friend sounds like an MJ hater.

5. This thread is going to be. A battleground.

1. How so? Please explain in detail what about production studio techniques, instrumentation, songwriting, what exactly (so I can never be left speechless when someone tries to diss MJ again).

2. That's actually very naive of you. Practically EVERY rock and pop star today would not be including certain studio techniques like track looping

3. That's not the point though, he did indeed bring rock-n-roll to the mainstream, even if 1. he didn't write the songs (he still performed it) 2. didn't necessarily 'create' rock-n-roll himself (Chuck Berry, Little Richard & Bob Diddley more so).

4.Trust me, he hates strawberry donuts more!

5. It's thoroughly what is needed!
 
1. How so? Please explain in detail what about production studio techniques, instrumentation, songwriting, what exactly (so I can never be left speechless when someone tries to diss MJ again).

2. That's actually very naive of you. Practically EVERY rock and pop star today would not be including certain studio techniques like track looping

3. That's not the point though, he did indeed bring rock-n-roll to the mainstream, even if 1. he didn't write the songs (he still performed it) 2. didn't necessarily 'create' rock-n-roll himself (Chuck Berry, Little Richard & Bob Diddley more so).

4.Trust me, he hates strawberry donuts more!

5. It's thoroughly what is needed!

I know this is random but can you re-quote me I edited my post. :)
If you don't thats fine.
 
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music

1. MJ is the reason for the music industry as we know it literally everyone is trying and failing to be like MJ.
You must not listen to much music if that's what you think. Many acts have nothing to do with the kind of music Mike made. How is this trying to be like Mike?


 
Re: music

You must not listen to much music if that's what you think. Many acts have nothing to do with the kind of music Mike made. How is this trying to be like Mike?



Trust me I listen to plenty of music from many different genres, and 99.9% of mainstream/popular artist (from any genre) are trying to be like MJ is some way shape or form, and or has cited him as a influence. :)
 
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Well, for starters how about the fact that MJ was the first black musician to be played on MTV? That wasn't a fluke. He deliberately recorded Beat It to get the attention of white audiences. There weren't too many black artists who had that level of versatility back then (or even now tbh), where they could combine funk, soul, rock, pop and R&B on one album. You were either an R&B artist or a rock artist, it was very segregated, and to be honest, it still is today. How many modern musicians or popstars do you see pulling off the amount of genres MJ and Prince did back in the 80s? I think part of MJ's mass appeal is that not only does he cover such a wide range of genres, he excels at them all as well. For example, songs like Beat It or Dirty Diana rock harder than most dated 80s rock bands music. And then you have something like a gospel power ballad like MITM or Earth Song... how many singers past or present have the vocal prowess and chops to pull off a song like MITM and not be outshone by a world class gospel choir? Yeah, perhaps Whitney or Mariah, but then when have you heard them pull off a rock track as well?

Even the way he wrote and composed music was innovative. Who else wrote songs like that, singing all the instrumental parts, the strings, the bass, the keyboards, the beatboxing etc. Then you have songs like Little Susie, WYBT with two minute choral choirs and orchestral intros.

This myth that MJ's only groundbreaking album was OTW is pure revisionist history. A very trendy opinion to have in 2016, but a complete load of bollocks if you ask me.

WOW....ok....there's a lot dissect here but here goes....

1. Beat It - would say the song itself was revolutionary though, it was a hard rock song an album that was largely pop-focused album. Many other artists before have recorded hard rock tracks alongside more somber R'n'B tracks like Jimi Hendrix for example. So was it the SONG itself, or his mere appearance as a black artist(and particularly because he was a pop artist) on MTV at that time in the early 80's where there was very few black artists on at the time?By the way I just found out that he technically wasn't the 'first' black artist on MTV, Musical Youth and several others appeared before him.

2. You mentioned Prince as an example besides MJ that offered a repertoire of different genres, but Prince is regarded to have invented the Minnesota Sound, nothing like that for MJ.

3. Do agree about his impact as a vocalist, he sung both hard rock and soft R'n'B songs perfectly. I actually think vocally speaking he did many things that nuanced and revolutionary.

4. But his humming or even beatboxing melody really that consequential to the overall soundscape of songs, if he had the ability to play those parts with instrument himself that we have gotten the same result. James Brown couldn't play any instruments but like MJ could hum things.

5. Those songs were certainly unique pop songs of the day, it's a shame they didn't get the credit they deserved.
 
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1. MJ is the reason for the music industry as we know it, literally every mainstream/popular artist male or female is trying and failing to be " the next MJ" by mimicking his sound, vocal hiccups, falsetto, etc.
2. The Beatles are great (the first really popular boyband), but I see very little of their influence in the current music industry.
3. Elvis couldn't even write his own music.
4. The other people he named are great, but overall they aren't on MJ's level ( they never became a worldwide phenomenon like MJ).
5. Your friend sounds like an MJ hater, which highly invalidates his opinion.
6. This thread is going to be a battleground.

1. So his vocal style then, MattyJam said the same and I agree
4.This is not about popularity per se though (that's the kind of discussion I didn't want), KEEP IT TO HIS MUSICAL efforts.
 
^^^ To be fair, I think Princess Nishea is referring more to modern mainstream popstars, such as your Biebers, Ushers, Timberlakes etc. The people who dominate the charts and airwaves.
The most mainstream popular genre in the US of the last 20 years or so has been hip hop and maybe country pop 2nd. Mike is no rapper and has little if any country style songs. The Eagles are more of an influence on mainstream country radio than Mike is. Those acts you mentioned have done collabs with rappers and so have some country acts.
 
Re: music

Trust me I listen to plenty of music from many different genres, and 99.9% of mainstream/popular artist (from any genre) are trying to be like MJ is some way shape or form, and or has cited him as a influence. :)

That's a sweeping statement with no statistical ground.
 
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The most mainstream popular genre in the US of the last 20 years or so has been hip hop and maybe country pop 2nd. Mike is no rapper and has little if any country style songs. The Eagles are more of an influence on mainstream country radio than Mike is. Those acts you mentioned have done collabs with rappers and so have some country acts.

Believe it or not MANY rap/hip hop artist and country artist cite MJ as an influence.

Many people are underestimating just how wide reaching MJ's influence is. :)
 
The most mainstream popular genre in the US of the last 20 years or so has been hip hop and maybe country pop 2nd. Mike is no rapper and has little if any country style songs. The Eagles are more of an influence on mainstream country radio than Mike is. Those acts you mentioned have done collabs with rappers and so have some country acts.

I think with many Hip Hop artists, they have all practically grown up listening to the Jackson family, thing about it, most of the most significant hip hop artists that were key to the golden age of hip hop and beyond (most born between 64' and 78') have either cited the Jackson Five/MJ has and early musical inspiration if not a direct influence and/or sampled The Jackson Five/Jacksons/MJ's music at some point. Like Public Enemy sampled "Walk On/The Love You Save", "Hum along and Dance! as well as "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough".
 
Well, you asked what was groundbreaking, not innovative. And it might not seem like a big deal for a black R&B artist to record a rock song, but it was in 1982. Of course, he wasn't the first black artist to do a rock track (rock music itself derives from black musicians), but rock was predominantly a white genre in the 70s/80s. You had bands like Funkadelic or Jimi Hendrix etc, but they weren't having mainstream commercial hits with their rock songs. They were more album artists than anything else.

Whether or not he was technically the first black artist played on MTV or not is not really the point, he was certainly the first black artist to get the same treatment as a white artist, as in his songs getting played on constant rotation by the station etc.

You raise a valid point about whether or not these are musical accomplishments or just industry accomplishments, but I would argue there's a reason why MJ was the one who broke down these barriers, and it's because he was one of the few artists who had the versatility to do all these different things and package them altogether. Yeah, there's nothing particularly innovative about Beat It as a song, I guess it's a pretty traditional rock song, but with MJ it was always about the whole package.

You say if MJ played instruments the results still would've been the same, but the very fact that he used his voice in such an unorthodox way to create entire compositions is pretty impressive if you ask me.

You know what, you have really good case here, I mean if you listen to several of his songs backed by his unique shuffle beat box rhythm, on tracks like "Who Is It", "Will You Be There", "They Don't Care About Us" and "Stranger In Moscow" you can hear the subtleties and MJ-ness of these songs.
 
Re: music

That's sweeping statement with no statistical grounds.
Yeah, what about the Whitney Houston/Barbra Streisand style adult contemporary singers? TV shows like American Idol were full of them. You could say Adele is in that category and she's one of the biggest selling current acts. There's also the Martha Wash style dance music singers, with more gospel type vocals.
 
Did you tell your friend about songs like Morphine or Little Susie? Did you ask him to name an artist that has as varied a catalogue as MJ's? Did you ask him to point you in the direction of someone that broke down musical barriers - black v white / rock v pop - to the extent that MJ did?

MJ's influence and impact on music goes far beyond your friends limited understanding. He tries to limit an artists worth to their influence "musically", probably to suit his narrow perception. Michael went way beyond that. Don't waste your breath. It's like casting precious seed on stoney ground.
 
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Yeah, what about the Whitney Houston/Barbra Streisand style adult contemporary singers? TV shows like American Idol were full of them. You could say Adele is in that category and she's one of the biggest selling current acts. There's also the Martha Wash style dance music singers, with more gospel type vocals.

Not sure about barbra, but both Adele and Whintey liked/like MJ's music.

If you're a mainstream artist and you're sucessful it's almost impossible to have not looked at MJ for inspiration in some way. :)

Michael is the King of all popular music for a reason. :)
 
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I have no idea why people just can't let Michael be great. :no:

He's MORE then earned his spot as the King of Pop and the greatest entertainer to ever do it.
 
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^Many artists have a varied catalogue.

None of them have one as varied as MJ. Get real.

And, to answer my question, did you tell your 'friend' about songs like Morphine and Little Susie? Have you even heard of them yourself?

I've read a lot of your posts and threads on here and, on many occasions, you come across as someone who is trying to belittle MJ's achievements. I'm not sure this 'friend' of yours even exists, to be honest with you.
 
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I have no idea why people can't just let Michael be great. :no:

Vast majority of people here want Michael to be great, but people challenge your statements because you always overstate them (no, 99% of artists do not look up to Michael. Yes a very high number, but not 99%), while downplaying the significance of other enormously influential musicians.

I think this thread is good. I know Michaels breakthroughs as a visual artist with his short films and dancing but while I consider some of his music to be amongst the greatest of the 20th century, I have admittedly struggled to see what exactly was so groundbreaking, innovative and influential about the music alone (and I don't mean that as an insult, I'm legitimately curious and ready to learn, it's a question I've actually wanted to ask here once or twice but never got around to it. So I'm excited to read posts by those who are very educated in the manner and can discuss it in detail!).
 
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Vast majority of people here want Michael to be great, but people challenge your statements because you always overstate them (no, 99% of artists do not look up to Michael. Yes a very high number, but not 99%), while downplaying the significance of other enormously influential musicians.

I think this thread is good. I know Michaels breakthroughs as a visual artist with his short films and dancing but while I consider some of his music to be amongst the greatest of the 20th century, I have admittedly struggled to see what exactly was so groundbreaking, innovative and influential about the music alone (and I don't mean that as an insult, I'm legitimately curious and ready to learn, it's a question I've actually wanted to ask here once or twice but never got around to it. So I'm excited to read posts by those who are very educated in the manner and can discuss it in detail!).

How am I downplaying anyone else, did I say anything about any other artist that wasn't factual?

Did I ever say that other artist didn't influence the same people MJ influenced?

And I stand by my statement.

The most popular artist now have indeed cited MJ as either as an influence or as their greatest influence.

In all honestly I don't believe you should blindly praise any artist, but more and more it seems like some of MJ's own fans are the quickest to discredit him.

It also seems like MJ is nit picked more then the Beatles and Elvis combined.
 
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Re: music

Not sure about barbra, but both Adele and Whintey liked/like MJ's music.
Garth Brooks likes KISS, but I don't hear KISS in his music. Bono likes Frank Sinatra, but I hear no Sinatra in U2 songs. Several of the Jackson brothers have said that they liked country music because their mother Katherine listened to it and sing it. They're not known for doing country. Liking someone's music doesn't necessarily mean that someone will do the same kind of style.
 
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Garth Brooks likes KISS, but I don't hear KISS in his music. Bono likes Frank Sinatra, but I hear no Sinatra in U2 songs. Several of the Jackson brothers have said that they liked country music because their mother Katherine listened to it and sing it. They're not known for doing country. Liking someone's music doesn't necessarily mean that someone will do the same kind of style.

Influence doesn't always have to be obvious. :)

It's kinda like how although boy bands today don't try to mimic the Beatles sound, we know that the Beatles are the benchmark for all boybands.:)
 
I would not know how to describe it all but... I can say when Mj was on tv everyone paid attention even the haters. He was mesmerizing in all aspects of his craft musically, dancing, videos and obviously performing. When people ask the question who is the greatest and who changed the game Mj was always in the conversation. G.O.A.T Mike drop!
 
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Vast majority of people here want Michael to be great, but people challenge your statements because you always overstate them (no, 99% of artists do not look up to Michael. Yes a very high number, but not 99%), while downplaying the significance of other enormously influential musicians.

I think this thread is good. I know Michaels breakthroughs as a visual artist with his short films and dancing but while I consider some of his music to be amongst the greatest of the 20th century, I have admittedly struggled to see what exactly was so groundbreaking, innovative and influential about the music alone (and I don't mean that as an insult, I'm legitimately curious and ready to learn, it's a question I've actually wanted to ask here once or twice but never got around to it. So I'm excited to read posts by those who are very educated in the manner and can discuss it in detail!).

I couldn't have put any better than that HIStoric. I just want to honestly discuss this aspect of his artistry that unfortunately many times gets a pass when we put a lense too and a magnifying glass on. Others may disagree here, but this aspect of his artistry is the part that I struggle to define on a macro level. He was one of the most revolutionary dances of the 20th century. No doubt. He was one of the most unique and idiosyncratic vocalist in popular music ever. No question there. But the music side is still up for debate IMHO. Despite what some want to assume, this is NOT an attempt to dismiss or disregard MJ as a musician and ultimately an influential one.
 
None of them have one as varied as MJ. Get real.

And, to answer my question, did you tell your 'friend' about songs like Morphine and Little Susie? Have you even heard of them yourself?

I've read a lot of your posts and threads on here and, on many occasions, you come across as someone who is trying to belittle MJ's achievements. I'm not sure this 'friend' of yours even exists, to be honest with you.

I didn't but thanks to HIStoric for reminding me, I'll take up that offer to do so.
 
Re: music

Influence doesn't always have to be obvious. :)

It's kinda like how although boy bands today don't try to mimic the Beatles sound, we know that the Beatles are the benchmark for all boybands.:)
The Beatles were actually a band. A so-called "boy band" is a singing group. A doo-wop group would be more of an influence since some of them were known for doing steps or choreography. 1930s and 1940s vocal groups like The Ink Spots and The Mills Brothers were the influence for the doo-wop groups. If The Beatles were the influence instead of Frankie Lymon & The Teenagers, then the boy bands would play instruments rather than dance. The Beatles weren't known for choreography in their act. The Temptations were a vocal group that did dance. You could say that New Edition is pretty much were the modern boy bands started and they've said that they were influenced by The Temptations, Blue Magic, The Dramatics, O'Jays, Jackson 5, & The Spinners. Not The Beatles.
 
Re: music

Garth Brooks likes KISS, but I don't hear KISS in his music. Bono likes Frank Sinatra, but I hear no Sinatra in U2 songs. Several of the Jackson brothers have said that they liked country music because their mother Katherine listened to it and sing it. They're not known for doing country. Liking someone's music doesn't necessarily mean that someone will do the same kind of style.

That's why I'm reluctant to highlight too much the artist that cite MJ has an 'influence' when there actually maybe little in the way of musical imprints.
 
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