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  1. #151
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    Default Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

    ^ By your logic I will just assume that YOU have a sexual interest in children. After all we do not need anything else by your logic, just assumptions about someone based on nothing else than "we cannot be 100% sure of the opposite".

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    Default Did MJ have ANY faults?

    Quote Originally Posted by InvincibleMJ View Post
    Slave To The Rhythm just because you are willingly ignorant about the allegations doesn't mean others didn't do research and based their opinion on strong evidence. Do your research first and only then criticize.
    never critized anything regarding the allegations 😉 Just said I questioned his behaviour with children sometimes or things he said in interviews... but that doesn't mean that I believe he was a pedophile...

    I did much research about the allegations and believe he was innocent...
    Last edited by Slave To The Rhythm; 15-01-2017 at 08:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

    Quote Originally Posted by respect77 View Post
    By your logic I can say: we can never be sure if you do not have a sexual interest in children and I can continue to hint at you having a sexual interest in children, after all we can never be sure, right? If we are now judging people based on what you ASSUME to be in their heads rather than whether there is any evidence against them of anything like that.

    You are also using straw-man arguments:





    Unlike it seems to be the case with you, most of us actually did our research regarding the allegations against him, we do not base our belief that he was innocent on things like "he was nice and charming", nor do we base our belief that he was innocent in all allegations against him based on the fact he was acquitted of the Arvizo case. We believe he was innocent in other allegations as well because we researched those cases as well. So you are simply attacking straw-men here.

    If you have a genuine doubt or problem you can go to the trials and tribulations section and ask of those who have more knowledge in these cases than you.
    Sorry I believe you missunderstood me... I meant I questioned his behaviour with children sometimes. Which I could see in videos. To me there's a difference between the scenes with macauly culkin (michael is very likeable here!!!) and scenes where is too much handholding to me for example.

    And I meant regarding the cases and what I read about them I believe he was innocent. Although there are some things that I don't completely understand Even After Hours Of research.

    And yes you could say that about anyone... although about me. But I Said it about hin because his interest in children was definitly unnormal. Maybe unnormal in a very good way, a way we all should be or maybe not. I believe he was just very naive and had a great heart. But I would never say that I Can be 100 % sure that he didn't although have Interest in children. Behause I simply can't know. And I wanted to say that that wouldn't make him a criminal when he didn't life this! (And again I don't believe he had that interest! I just said I can't be 100% sure even after research.

    And I want to ask you if you can be 100% sure that he didn't??? and no I don't have a Problem at all and never wanted To be offensive. Just can't believe when some fan's say he was 100% mistakeless and I wanted to bring a extreme example that we can't say that about no one! 😉

    So is everything alright? Didn't want to offend anyone

  4. #154
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    Default Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

    Quote Originally Posted by respect77 View Post
    ^ By your logic I will just assume that YOU have a sexual interest in children. After all we do not need anything else by your logic, just assumptions about someone based on nothing else than "we cannot be 100% sure of the opposite".
    No because there where allegations (many!) and he had much more to do with children than most people.
    And yes I researched about the allegations and believe that they are untrue! but there are also a few minor things that I find questionable... but that doesn't mean that I believe he was guilty. Maybe his heart was just to good for the world and he was very naive.

    But I would never say 100 % that there couldn't be other reasons. But yes that was a extrem example I brought to answer the question: can we even know that he had NO mistakes?
    No we cannot. Because we can't judge anyone by things we read. And even though we had known him we couldn't answer the question if he had no mistake. I just wanted to show with the example that you can never say that about anyone because we can't look in the heads of other people

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    Default Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slave To The Rhythm View Post
    Sorry I believe you missunderstood me... I meant I questioned his behaviour with children sometimes. Which I could see in videos. To me there's a difference between the scenes with macauly culkin (michael is very likeable here!!!) and scenes where is too much handholding to me for example.

    And I meant regarding the cases and what I read about them I believe he was innocent. Although there are some things that I don't completely understand Even After Hours Of research.

    And yes you could say that about anyone... although about me. But I Said it about hin because his interest in children was definitly unnormal. Maybe unnormal in a very good way, a way we all should be or maybe not. I believe he was just very naive and had a great heart. But I would never say that I Can be 100 % sure that he didn't although have Interest in children. Behause I simply can't know. And I wanted to say that that wouldn't make him a criminal when he didn't life this! (And again I don't believe he had that interest! I just said I can't be 100% sure even after research.

    And I want to ask you if you can be 100% sure that he didn't??? and no I don't have a Problem at all and never wanted To be offensive. Just can't believe when some fan's say he was 100% mistakeless and I wanted to bring a extreme example that we can't say that about no one! 

    So is everything alright? Didn't want to offend anyone
    If you want to insinuate someone is guilty or has sexual desires for children then the burden of proof is on you to prove that and it is not sufficient to shift the burden of proof on the other side - which is what this very lazy and fallacious "we cannot 100% be sure" argument eventually does.

    Now, you claim you believe MJ was innocent and that you never insinuated otherwise. It sure looked like you were insinuating things. You said among other things "just because he was acquitted in 2005 it doesn't mean he was innocent in the other cases" (when no one said his 2005 acquittal is why we believe he was innocent in the other cases as well) and "just because someone is nice it doesn't mean he is innocent" (when no one said we believe he is innocent because he was nice). Fallacy after fallacy because no one argued these are the reasons of why we believe in his innocence.

    Then you went on to basically say "even if he didn't do anything we cannot 100% be sure he didn't have a sexual desire for children". WTF? Sorry but accusing someone of pedophilia is a serious thing, so I am not going to take this lightly, even if you are "just" insinuating things by this lazy "cannot 100% be sure" argument. If you want to accuse MJ of something or even just insinuate things about him YOU have the burden of proof and not those who believe in his innocence. "We cannot 100% be sure of the opposite" is not good enough because you can say that about anyone in the world. That you personally have an issue with him holding hands with children is also not good enough. If you actually know the Arvizo case, like you claim, then you would know that there was nothing behind that hand holding. MJ hasn't even met that kid for two years before that. So if you know that then I don't know why you hold that against him.

    No because there where allegations (many!) and he had much more to do with children than most people.
    How many allegations you or him had is irrelevant here. You are basing your whole argument on "we cannot 100% be sure" and that applies to you as much as it applies to Michael Jackson. You find MJ holding hands with Gavin problematic, I may find your comments about how you have no problem with people who have a sexual desire for children problematic. I mean if we want to see things with suspicion we can - in anyone.

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    Default Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

    Quote Originally Posted by respect77 View Post
    If you want to insinuate someone is guilty or has sexual desires for children then the burden of proof is on you to prove that and it is not sufficient to shift the burden of proof on the other side - which is what this very lazy and fallacious "we cannot 100% be sure" argument eventually does.

    Now, you claim you believe MJ was innocent and that you never insinuated otherwise. It sure looked like you were insinuating things. You said among other things "just because he was acquitted in 2005 it doesn't mean he was innocent in the other cases" (when no one said his 2005 acquittal is why we believe he was innocent in the other cases as well) and "just because someone is nice it doesn't mean he is innocent" (when no one said we believe he is innocent because he was nice). Fallacy after fallacy because no one argued these are the reasons of why we believe in his innocence.

    Then you went on to basically say "even if he didn't do anything we cannot 100% be sure he didn't have a sexual desire for children". WTF? Sorry but accusing someone of pedophilia is a serious thing, so I am not going to take this lightly, even if you are "just" insinuating things by this lazy "cannot 100% be sure" argument. If you want to accuse MJ of something or even just insinuate things about him YOU have the burden of proof and not those who believe in his innocence. "We cannot 100% be sure of the opposite" is not good enough because you can say that about anyone in the world. That you personally have an issue with him holding hands with children is also not good enough. If you actually know the Arvizo case, like you claim, then you would know that there was nothing behind that hand holding. MJ hasn't even met that kid for two years before that. So if you know that then I don't know why you hold that against him.
    Okey I understand you and if you understand my text like you did I totally agree with you on every point.

    Hopefully you know now after reading my correction (deleted my old post and corrected it) what I really meant.

    For example with the line even the nicest and charming person can be a criminal I meant the following:
    I didn't mean michael at all. I didn't meant that you believe that he was innocent because of facts. I didn't mean him at all. I meant that even though you know a person personally and he looks like the perfect guy in every point there's a chance that this guy is the complete difference of it. And that's what I meant. I wanted to say that even about a person you know you cannot say that he or she has no mistakes. Because oftentimes people don't show their mistakes

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    Default Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

    And after all that was the question of the thread??? Did he have any faults at all? And I answered with "We can't know!" Or I cannot be 100% sure that he didn't have that mistake I pointed out. That was my answer. And regarding to that no I don't believe he had that mistake I talked about but I cannot be 100 % sure?

    So after all all humans have mistakes and how can we say anything about someone else? especially someone we didn't know personally


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    Default Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

    and can we all just quit that with:

    Yeah I did a mistake by using a bad example? I'm also human.

    But I meant something else and I hope you got now what I meant. I believe he was innocent and that's it okey? just wanted to say he was someone I didn't know personally so I can't answer that question if he had any faults. And also I wanted to say that even if I knew him I couldn't answer it.


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    Default Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

    Wtf?

    Sent from my phone ☎
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    Default Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

    Quote Originally Posted by respect77 View Post
    ^ By your logic I will just assume that YOU have a sexual interest in children. After all we do not need anything else by your logic, just assumptions about someone based on nothing else than "we cannot be 100% sure of the opposite".
    Quote Originally Posted by respect77 View Post
    Then you went on to basically say "even if he didn't do anything we cannot 100% be sure he didn't have a sexual desire for children". WTF? Sorry but accusing someone of pedophilia is a serious thing, so I am not going to take this lightly, even if you are "just" insinuating things by this lazy "cannot 100% be sure" argument. If you want to accuse MJ of something or even just insinuate things about him YOU have the burden of proof and not those who believe in his innocence.
    You took the words straight of my mouth, Respect77.

    I think it is one thing to find some of Michael's behaviour inappropriate, but another thing all together to believe he is guilty of child molestation as a result, which might I reinforce is an extremely serious accusation to make.

    I admit that I personally find some of Michael's behaviour with children to be somewhat inappropriate, even though I know there was nothing behind it. I just personally don't approve of him holding hands with an unrelated child, or allowing unrelated children to sleep in his bedroom with him. If I found out a random male was doing this (especially the last one), yes it could likely raise questions for me on that person's behaviour. I wouldn't immediately jump to the serious accusation of child molestation, but I would find it unusual and question it.

    And I did just that many years back with Michael Jackson. The thing with Michael Jackson, is that there are mountains and mountains of evidence proving he is innocent, that it should squash any questions you might have on it. I am highly confident in that fact that Michael Jackson was innocent as a result of this and his behaviour no longer raises any questions I might have towards his relationships with children.

    You claim yourself that you have read a lot of this research but still go "you can never know".With all due respect, what a load of crap. Like Respect said, you could effectively use that excuse for anyone on any crime ever (and you could still apply that logic to the "sides of people you never knew").
    Last edited by HIStoric; 16-01-2017 at 04:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

    I think Michael had many faults.
    He was naive at times.
    Sometimes wasn't always honest.
    Poor judgement.
    I think much of this stems from his childhood.

    I don't think he was a pedophile or child molestor as some say, but he was clearly in the wrong for allowing kids to share his bed. Which is what I mean by poor judgement.

    Despite all this, he was a man filled with love, a musical genius, and a great humanitarian and for this I remember him.

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    Default Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

    I just personally don't approve of him holding hands with an unrelated child
    Did Michael really take Gavins hand or was it Gavin who took Michaelīs hand? Instructed by his mother.
    You can see that Gavin was leaning against him.If Michael thought a child wanted to hold his hand I donīt think he had said no
    "How much did I really know about life on earth? What responsibility did I feel for creatures outside my little space?
    How could I lead my life so that every cell of living matter was also benefited?" Michael Jackson
    "Love no violence ever, remember a beautiful future promise of tomorrow "MJ

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    Default Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

    Quote Originally Posted by MIST View Post
    Did Michael really take Gavins hand or was it Gavin who took Michaelīs hand? Instructed by his mother.
    Not sure. Quickly revisited the footage and it cuts back into the scene with them already holding.

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    Default Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

    Yuuuuup he was human.....no one is perfect.

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    Default Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

    Anyone giving him crap about not being honest all the time, you have no right. Who is 100% truthful always? Nobody, quoting Dr. Gregory House: "everybody lies!"



    Michael wasn't a compulsive liar, he was mostly frank about the important things.


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