What Do Other Celebs' Fans Think About MICHAEL?

[FullLipsDotNose]

So I've been a fan of various artists for some time and we for sure discuss someone else than our shared beloved celebs from time to time. Here's what I've found:

Prince - Some people love him or at least respect him, some people are tired of hearing about him and make silly jokes. Mostly say Prince was better than MJ because he wrote and produced his music and could play zillions of instruments. Those that are fans of both oftentimes raise their hands and say in a shy voice: "But... MJ also wrote and produced his stuff and he could also play the guitar, piano and percussions..."

Janet Jackson - If there's a fan talking ill about MJ, others weed them out. Mostly respect.

Alicia Keys - Some shared interest although I'd say the majority of the fans prefer slightly different musical styles.

Cher - Unfortunately, there was a lot of backlash towards MJ back in the trial days.

Beyoncé - Beyhive is huge and there indeed some MJ fans (as is Bey). The Bey's fans I know are OK with MJ.

Black Eyed Peas - There is some overlap despite Thriller 25.

Amy Winehouse - Usually just respect. Her music is very depressive and thus attracts a slightly different audience.

Beatles - Depends. The fanbase tends to be white, middle-aged and middle-class although deviations do exist.

Fakné - For those who don't know, it's an all-female anarcho-feminist rap group from the Czech Republic. Their typical fan is a left-wing feminist with university education or at least enrolled somewhere. Because it's an anarchist group, some fans don't listen to commercial music and thus feel resentment towards MJ. Fakné also speaks the intellectual lingo (with frequent profanities), so it might not appeal to wider audiences (and some fans don't want to listen to lyrics that is not in the intellectual lingo).

I've also read about fans of both MJ and James Brown that attended JB's concert in Prague and took MJ placards with them. Some people in the audience were furious and saying bad stuff about MJ which surprised this group because, hey, it's James Brown, he is cool with MJ! And they actually got on stage and hugged him

 

[Nite Line]

All I know is that Beyonce fans really hate MJ. They are so jealous of him, it's unbelievable and that's despite their idol Beyonce being a huge MJ fangirl.

 

[Miel]

Except for some ones, most Beyoncé fans I've encountered, whether it was on social media or IRL, respect Michael at least.

 

[Ms. BlueGangsta]

All I know is that Beyonce fans really hate MJ. They are so jealous of him, it's unbelievable and that's despite their idol Beyonce being a huge MJ fangirl.

I see not a single lie, and I'm sure that it's because although Beyonce is great that overall she isn't on the same level as MJ.

For the most part her fans/stans really do hate Michael with a passion and it is VERY ironic considering that Beyonce is an MJ Stan and that she herself would have never become an entertainer if it weren't for Michael.
I feel as though Prince fans hate Michael for a similar if not the exact same reason.
Both Fanbases faves are great, but aren't/weren't as big as Michael and they resent Michael for it.

When it comes to MJ hate from other fanbases Prince and Beyonce stans/fans take the cake.:/

 

[MidnightMoonwalk]

Might be a wrong impression, but I think a lot of Elvis fans dislike Michael. I'm not a huge fan of Elvis, but they are both kings in their own right, so it doesn't come as a surprise that there would be rivalry between the groups. Same with Prince fans.

Also, a few years back I was taken aback how hostile Jon Bon Jovi fans were towards MJ. :/ At least on the forum I visited.

Whitney Houston fans seem to be appreciate MJ quite a bit. But I think when your idol is female, you don't see men as rivals/threat to their status and vice versa. They can rule the "kingdom" together as king and queen. With other ladies or other guys, there will be problems.

 

[KOPV]

There will always be jealousy when fandom feels a threat that someone else Is better... It's the "My mom's a better cook" "My dad can beat up your dad" In adult form...

 

[Ms. BlueGangsta]

Might be a wrong impression, but I think a lot of Elvis fans dislike Michael. I'm not a huge fan of Elvis, but they are both kings in their own right, so it doesn't come as a surprise that there would be rivalry between the groups. Same with Prince fans.

Really?
I've never knowingly come across any Elvis fans that I can remember, but if they do indeed for the most part dislike Michael they really shouldn't come for him considering that in an MJ vs Elvis argument they really don't have a leg to stand on other then Elvis selling more records, which I don't care about because had Michael released as many albums as Elvis I'm sure he would be the best selling solo artist of all time right now, but Michael put quality before quantity, which is why out of all the classic/non-current artists he's doing the best today.

Also, a few years back I was taken aback how hostile Jon Bon Jovi fans were towards MJ. :/ At least on the forum I visited.

Hm, I've also never knowingly come across anyone from this fanbase, but this is strange and rather random if I do say so myself.

Edit: I thought about it and Jon Bon Jovi is a rock artist, so the hate makes a lil sense to me now.

Whitney Houston fans seem to be appreciate MJ quite a bit. But I think when your idol is female, you don't see men as rivals/threat to their status and vice versa. They can rule the "kingdom" together as king and queen. With other ladies or other guys, there will be problems.

Whitney fans do seem to like Michael for the most part that's all I have to say.

 

[HIStory]

Those are some random choices of fandoms.
I didn't know we can still talk about big fandoms of Alicia Keys or the Black Eyed Peas, for example. Unless you just talk about individual fans you have met who happened to be fans of these artists and had an opinion about MJ. But like with everything you cannot generalize based on a couple of opinions, IMO.

It is interesting with Beyoncé fans though. I experienced it in another forum that has different sections for different fandoms that Beyoncé fans at times come over to the MJ forum to troll it. Though it happens the other way around as well by a couple of individuals, I have to say. I never understood that because Beyoncé is such a fan of MJ. But they do seem to have a jealousy of him. And if you think MJ fans are fanatical - you haven't experienced Beyoncé fans yet then. LOL.

 

[Ms. BlueGangsta]

Those are some random choices of fandoms.
I didn't know we can still talk about big fandoms of Alicia Keys or the Black Eyed Peas, for example. Unless you just talk about individual fans you have met who happened to be fans of these artists and had an opinion about MJ. But like with everything you cannot generalize based on a couple of opinions, IMO.

It is interesting with Beyoncé fans though. I experienced it in another forum that has different sections for different fandoms that Beyoncé fans at times come over to the MJ forum to troll it. Though it happens the other way around as well by a couple of individuals, I have to say. I never understood that because Beyoncé is such a fan of MJ.But they do seem to have a jealousy of him.And if you think MJ fans are fanatical - you haven't experienced Beyoncé fans yet then. LOL.

The Beyonce fans also seem to be very indecisive along with jealous.
They'll tear Michael down and act like he wasn't shit as a artist/entertainer, but on the flip side will compare Beyonce to Michael and/or try to put her on or above his level every chance they get, which shows that Michael is indeed the golden standard, and not their fave because everyone gets compared to the standard.
By constantly comparing her to Michael and/or shouting that she's better then him from the rooftops, they IMO negate themselves.

 

[Tony R]

Can't really see how you can group one person's fans together and say they think the same way.

We don't all even feel the same way about Mike, and argue amongst ourselves about Prince and Madonna.

People are people and have different opinions, so to say all Prince/Beyoncé fans feel a certain way towards Mike is ridiculous.

 

[valeryjackson]

Well i like Nirvana and Kurt cobain and most of the fans are also Michael's fan. Haven't seen any hate towards him.

 

[Ms. BlueGangsta]

Apart from MJ, I'm also a big Prince fan (his fanbase has already been discussed). Outside of those two artists, I mostly listen to rock music, and am a big fan of Guns N Roses. I've noticed that MJ is quite often mentioned on the GNR fanboards, and on quite a few other rock music forums. I think he's one of the few "pop" artists that a lot of rock fans seem to respect. They don't have much time for the likes of Madonna, Janet or even Prince for that matter, but I've come across quite a lot of rock music fans who dig MJ. I don't know if it's the Slash connection, or the fact that MJ himself did some legitimately great rock music and worked with the likes of Eddie Van Halen, Slash, Steve Stevens, Carlos Santana, Jennifer Batten and Oranthi (us rock fans are obsessed with our guitars!).

Personally I just think it's because he was so great at so many different genres. I mean, you can't be a rock fan and not love Beat It or Give Into Me or State of Shock or Dirty Diana, can you?

Wow really!
It's great to hear that rock fans like MJ!

Also when I talk about fans of any other artist being MJ haters I personally am talking about people that are strictly fans of that artist and not MJ too because obviously if someone is both a fan of another artist and MJ then they aren't MJ haters.:yes:
I also don't think that the entire fanbases of the artists I talked about hate MJ, just seemingly at least more then half (which translates to the majority) or the majority.


I just don't want you to think that I think just because you're a Prince fan that you're an MJ hater too, which you obviously are not.

 

[Deleted member 9375]

I'm a Prince fan myself also. I'm not entirely sure fans resent MJ for being bigger? Perhaps some but from what I usually see its down to commercial success versus artistic integrity, or artistic choices. I mean not every artist necessarily sets out to sell millions of albums, they simply want to express themselves through their work. I don't think everyone equates selling loads of albums as being the best? I don't myself anyway. I'm also a massive fan of Kate Bush and there's not only no desire from her to have that kind of commercial success, it simply dosent even come into the equation; all an artist like that wants to do is be as true to themselves as is humanly possible. Perhaps Kate Bush isn't the greatest example as she's not a typical pop act anyway, but the biggest selling, the most views, the most this, the most that? Does any of that really mean anything? Personally MJ is my favourite of all time, but not because Thriller sold the most or because he's the most recognisable, I just love the music, videos, concerts and him as a person.

 

[DuranDuran]

Can't really see how you can group one person's fans together and say they think the same way.

We don't all even feel the same way about Mike, and argue amongst ourselves about Prince and Madonna.

People are people and have different opinions, so to say all Prince/Beyoncé fans feel a certain way towards Mike is ridiculous.

People on this site have said negative things about other acts, like in these threads:

Anyone else here hate the Foo Fighters?
Stay away from Akon!
Legends you have no use for
Justin Timberlake Should Not Say Others are 'Wannabees' because he is a 'Wannabee' Himself
Justin Timberlake, King of Pop?!
Black Music White Face? Justin Timberlake & the Selling of 'Soul'
Tired Of Seeing Talented/Gorgeous Female Artist Looking Like Soft Porn Stars!
Janet: *yawn* I get it... you like sex
The Mess that Is R. Kelly
Eminem? is it worth my time?
Eminem Threatens Mariah in New Song
Who you find overrated and corny?
*** Bono's Facebook stake worth nearly $1 billion ***
looks (listens) like kanye's autotune failed him
I'm absolutely done with Beyonce'
Am I the only one who doesn't care for the 60's?
Is this the worst album ever?
Am i the only who doesn't understand the hype of The Black Eyed Peas?
Black Eyed Peas album a flop at No. 6 on chart
Will.i.am Says Justin Bieber’s Career “Could Be Like Michael Jackson”
I didn't realized on TLC's CrazySexyCool there is an MJ diss
do you like your artists a bit looney?
The Home Video Prince Doesn't Want You to See
Is Elvis Overrated?
Selling Out...
Justin Bieber doesn't know what the word 'German' means. No, really.
i'll never forgive_____ for working with________
Most Overrated Female artist
Lady Gaga
Discussion i came across: Michael or Madonna- Who was the most talented?

 

[Deleted member 9375]

^^True! It goes on a lot here too!

 

[HIStory]

People on this site have said negative things about other acts, like in these threads:

Anyone else here hate the Foo Fighters?
Stay away from Akon!
Legends you have no use for
Justin Timberlake Should Not Say Others are 'Wannabees' because he is a 'Wannabee' Himself
Justin Timberlake, King of Pop?!
Black Music White Face? Justin Timberlake & the Selling of 'Soul'
Tired Of Seeing Talented/Gorgeous Female Artist Looking Like Soft Porn Stars!
Janet: *yawn* I get it... you like sex
The Mess that Is R. Kelly
Eminem? is it worth my time?
Eminem Threatens Mariah in New Song
Who you find overrated and corny?
*** Bono's Facebook stake worth nearly $1 billion ***
looks (listens) like kanye's autotune failed him
I'm absolutely done with Beyonce'
Am I the only one who doesn't care for the 60's?
Is this the worst album ever?
Am i the only who doesn't understand the hype of The Black Eyed Peas?
Black Eyed Peas album a flop at No. 6 on chart
Will.i.am Says Justin Bieber’s Career “Could Be Like Michael Jackson”
I didn't realized on TLC's CrazySexyCool there is an MJ diss
do you like your artists a bit looney?
The Home Video Prince Doesn't Want You to See
Is Elvis Overrated?
Selling Out...
Justin Bieber doesn't know what the word 'German' means. No, really.
i'll never forgive_____ for working with________
Most Overrated Female artist
Lady Gaga
Discussion i came across: Michael or Madonna- Who was the most talented?

I am not sure these are great examples. In every forum for a musical act there is a general music part where people discuss music outside of the subject of the main forum. It is natural that people there will have different tastes and different opinions and there is nothing wrong in expressing even an unfavourable opinion on an artist. So someone started a thread once here on not liking the Foo Fighters. So? It doesn't prove there is some general hatred for the Foo Fighters within the MJ fandom. I don't think there is, so I do not quite feel things like these are great examples for this topic. Same with most of the other threads you brought up. Also several of those threads are in reply on insults from those artists towards MJ (eg. TLC's or Eminem's MJ diss) or just a general opinion about what was going on at a time on the charts, in the media, or about an album etc. Are MJ fans not entitled to comment on those regarding other artists?

I think this thread is more about other fandoms that maybe have some sort of hateful obsession with MJ. I do notice that with the Prince fandom - not even only on a regular fan level, but just look at even celebrity fans of Prince, like Chris Rock who doesn't miss any opportunity to bring up and bash MJ - even in his movies. So it is undeniable there is some level of obsession there. But then, to be fair, there is a segment of the Prince fandom who like both artitsts and have great respect for MJ. Like said you cannot generalize a whole fandom - of any artist. Other than that, I am not sure about the other artists mentioned in the OP, but maybe that's because those fandoms aren't really on my radar (I do go to Prince forums sometimes, as I like both artists, so I can see that.). That's why I am asking OP whether these are based on individual encounters she had with individual fans or something more wide-spread and regular? Because even the choice of fandoms in the OP seemed kind of random to me.

I'm a Prince fan myself also. I'm not entirely sure fans resent MJ for being bigger? Perhaps some but from what I usually see its down to commercial success versus artistic integrity, or artistic choices. I mean not every artist necessarily sets out to sell millions of albums, they simply want to express themselves through their work. I don't think everyone equates selling loads of albums as being the best? I don't myself anyway. I'm also a massive fan of Kate Bush and there's not only no desire from her to have that kind of commercial success, it simply dosent even come into the equation; all an artist like that wants to do is be as true to themselves as is humanly possible. Perhaps Kate Bush isn't the greatest example as she's not a typical pop act anyway, but the biggest selling, the most views, the most this, the most that? Does any of that really mean anything? Personally MJ is my favourite of all time, but not because Thriller sold the most or because he's the most recognisable, I just love the music, videos, concerts and him as a person.

That's true the other way around too, though. Some resent and dismiss MJ because he was commercially successful. There is a snob attitude within some fandoms against commercial success and they see it as a "versus artistic integrity" thing (like you said) when it isn't necessarily. I don't think MJ doesn't have artistic integrity just because he was also commercially successful. And yes, commercial success was important to him, but I don't think he sacrificed artistic integrity for that. If he had done so then he wouldn't have created albums such as HIStory.

 

[HIStoric]

With Prince or Kate Bush and artists of their ilk, they have an almost cult following, and since Prince has passed, I have wondered what will become of his legacy once the people who became fans during his lifetime are gone. I mean, the man didn't exactly do himself any favours, by making so much of his music inaccessible, a good chunk of his later work is now out-of-print and he had an overly-zealous obsession with making sure his music couldn't be listened to or watched online without him being compensated for it. It's all very well taking that stance and fighting for artists rights, it some ways it's commendable, but what about preserving your own legacy for future generations? Warner Bros recently put out Prince's first posthumous release, a hits compilation which was fairly heavily promoted and has come out just in time for the Christmas market in the same year as his death. It failed to reach the top 20 here in the UK and just about scraped the top 40 Stateside. Prince could've had so much more universal appeal than he did, but he shot himself in the foot repeatedly and I fear his musical legacy will largely die out with his fanbase.

For MJ, he knew what he was doing. It wasn't just about being number 1 that week, he talked often about building a legacy and about the importance of his work living on and being immortalised. He achieved it through his unparalelled talent, attention to detail and ambiton, and whilst I think his appeal was unique exclusively to him, I do think other artists could've achieved a more enduring legacy had they taken the time and foresight to look beyond their own creative whims and self-indulgence.

Yup. I'm going to be honest, I don't think Prince's music has transcended that well to my generation (Late-teens/early-20s). It goes without saying that there are still Prince fans, but I feel like almost no-one my age knows his music beyond maybe Purple Rain and another song. Maybe When Doves Cry or Let's Get Crazy.

Times have changed, streaming services are king now. Almost everyone I know my age uses either YouTube, Spotify or Apple Music to listen to their music. Alongside the radio for some people, like it or not, that's primarily how we obtain music now. Why buy a $20 album when you can get 40,000,000+ songs at your disposal for only $12.99 a month? Prince isn't available on any of the online services I just mentioned, and by doing so, he has basically shot himself in the foot for my generation I feel.

When David Bowie died, his streaming on Spotify skyrocketed. I remember seeing many of my friends streaming his material, and still I can go to Bowie's profile right now and see a solid number of friends streamed his material recently. He is extremely accessible and, as I've learnt over the year, I know a lot of Bowie fans. Wanna guess how they primarily play his music now?

When Prince died, I truly feel it kinda just happened... and that was it. The only song he had on Spotify, it's listens skyrocketed. It was clear people my age wanted to listen to his music, but short of spending $20 or pirating it, we couldn't. There was nothing on YouTube as he was such a copyright nazi (although in the weeks following, copyright claims on his material laxed and I felt that helped. I personally discovered a favourite song of mine, Controversy, thanks to the laxer rules). Tidal - the only streaming service he is on - is largely unknown to the general public. He only joined (IIRC) because he gets a slightly higher royalty fee than the other services... but at what cost to his legacy?

And don't get me wrong, there are still some Prince fans my age, introduced through the ol' fashioned methods (their parents had a Prince CD, they pirated his music, some even bought on iTunes). But you guys get what I mean? He's just killing his legacy, he's going to be left in the dust.

Prince 4Ever was the perfect opportunity to introduce his music to streaming services... but alas.

This is why I'm so glad that like David Bowie and Michael Jackson are so accessible. MJ has been on Spotify for years, you can easily find all his music videos everywhere. I recall Michael said that he was very happy to let younger artists sample his music (think Rihanna on Don't Stop The Music, or Kanye on Good Life) because it helped introduce his legacy to future generations. Their accessibility is playing a huge part on how well known their works are with the younger generations. Get with the times.

 

[Tony R]

Two really interesting posts above. Really good.

Matty, can't believe you got second row to 'Before The Dawn'!!

I presumed you'd be a Kate Bush fan, being such a huge fan of Tori Amos.

 

[Ms. BlueGangsta]

Re: topics

I am not sure these are great examples. In every forum for a musical act there is a general music part where people discuss music outside of the subject of the main forum. It is natural that people there will have different tastes and different opinions and there is nothing wrong in expressing even an unfavourable opinion on an artist. So someone started a thread once here on not liking the Foo Fighters. So? It doesn't prove there is some general hatred for the Foo Fighters within the MJ fandom. I don't think there is, so I do not quite feel things like these are great examples for this topic. Same with most of the other threads you brought up. Also several of those threads are in reply on insults from those artists towards MJ (eg. TLC's or Eminem's MJ diss) or just a general opinion about what was going on at a time on the charts, in the media, or about an album etc. Are MJ fans not entitled to comment on those regarding other artists?

I think this thread is more about other fandoms that maybe have some sort of hateful obsession with MJ. I do notice that with the Prince fandom - not even only on a regular fan level, but just look at even celebrity fans of Prince, like Chris Rock who doesn't miss any opportunity to bring up and bash MJ - even in his movies. So it is undeniable there is some level of obsession there. But then, to be fair, there is a segment of the Prince fandom who like both artitsts and have great respect for MJ. Like said you cannot generalize a whole fandom - of any artist. Other than that, I am not sure about the other artists mentioned in the OP, but maybe that's because those fandoms aren't really on my radar (I do go to Prince forums sometimes, as I like both artists, so I can see that.). That's why I am asking OP whether these are based on individual encounters she had with individual fans or something more wide-spread and regular? Because even the choice of fandoms in the OP seemed kind of random to me.



That's true the other way around too, though. Some resent and dismiss MJ because he was commercially successful. There is a snob attitude within some fandoms against commercial success and they see it as a "versus artistic integrity" thing (like you said) when it isn't necessarily. I don't think MJ doesn't have artistic integrity just because he was also commercially successful. And yes, commercial success was important to him, but I don't think he sacrificed artistic integrity for that. If he had done so then he wouldn't have created albums such as HIStory.

The part I bolded is more so what I was thinking too.

NO fanbase has completely clean hands when it comes to talking about other artist, but it's obvious that there's a difference between negative comments and obsessively hating another artist.
For example, before I settled on MJJC on all of the music forums of which I was a regular visitor Beyonce fans for the most part did seem to hate Michael.
That isn't to say I think all Beyonce fans hate Michael, just at least more then half the fanbase.

I haven't even checked social media today, but I bet you could type in Michael Jackson on Twitter and find some hating ass Beyonce fans talking shit about him for no damn reason.
Edit: Infact, just some days ago Beyonce fans attacked Michael on Twitter after MJJLegion tweeted about Michael's Remember The Time Performance at the Soul Train awards.
They had no motive other then MJ hate, and also what I imagine is insecurity/jealousy about Michael having been bigger then Beyonce has ever been (she's big but not THAT big).

And yeah you're right in what you said about Prince fans too.
I can't stand Chris Rock.

Overall your comment and MattyJams explained things perfectly.

 

[analogue]

Will Smith fans love MJ

 

[Tony R]

Will Smith fans love MJ

Both of them?

 

[FullLipsDotNose]

Re: topics

That's why I am asking OP whether these are based on individual encounters she had with individual fans or something more wide-spread and regular? Because even the choice of fandoms in the OP seemed kind of random to me.

I'm talking only about fandoms where I personally belong. By all means, this is not a sociological survey, so it can't be representative and is mostly anecdotal. At the same time, though, if anyone has a different experience (positive or negative), then I welcome their input.

 

[FullLipsDotNose]

In addition, I didn't generalise any fandom. If you through my post, you will see me saying words like "mostly", "some", etc. I'm not saying all fans of someone's do this or that.

 

[Deleted member 9375]

I am not sure these are great examples. In every forum for a musical act there is a general music part where people discuss music outside of the subject of the main forum. It is natural that people there will have different tastes and different opinions and there is nothing wrong in expressing even an unfavourable opinion on an artist. So someone started a thread once here on not liking the Foo Fighters. So? It doesn't prove there is some general hatred for the Foo Fighters within the MJ fandom. I don't think there is, so I do not quite feel things like these are great examples for this topic. Same with most of the other threads you brought up. Also several of those threads are in reply on insults from those artists towards MJ (eg. TLC's or Eminem's MJ diss) or just a general opinion about what was going on at a time on the charts, in the media, or about an album etc. Are MJ fans not entitled to comment on those regarding other artists?

I think this thread is more about other fandoms that maybe have some sort of hateful obsession with MJ. I do notice that with the Prince fandom - not even only on a regular fan level, but just look at even celebrity fans of Prince, like Chris Rock who doesn't miss any opportunity to bring up and bash MJ - even in his movies. So it is undeniable there is some level of obsession there. But then, to be fair, there is a segment of the Prince fandom who like both artitsts and have great respect for MJ. Like said you cannot generalize a whole fandom - of any artist. Other than that, I am not sure about the other artists mentioned in the OP, but maybe that's because those fandoms aren't really on my radar (I do go to Prince forums sometimes, as I like both artists, so I can see that.). That's why I am asking OP whether these are based on individual encounters she had with individual fans or something more wide-spread and regular? Because even the choice of fandoms in the OP seemed kind of random to me.



That's true the other way around too, though. Some resent and dismiss MJ because he was commercially successful. There is a snob attitude within some fandoms against commercial success and they see it as a "versus artistic integrity" thing (like you said) when it isn't necessarily. I don't think MJ doesn't have artistic integrity just because he was also commercially successful. And yes, commercial success was important to him, but I don't think he sacrificed artistic integrity for that. If he had done so then he wouldn't have created albums such as HIStory.

Oh I agree. The artistic integrity thing is simply used time and again by people who can't stand that MJ was so successful, as I say, I just don't equate selling the most to being the best and I can't understand how anyone could. Yup, works both ways though and "just because" a record sells 30 plus million certainly doesn't make it bad, especailly If it's artistically a great album; Dangerous, HIStory. Ironically, Invincible, one of his lowest selling probably isn't the greatest artistic statement from him, so perhaps having the drive to create the biggest sellers of all time were a big part of what brought out the best in him artistically. I understand all the circumstances around Invincible but I don't think it's merely a coincidence either that such a low performing (for MJ, 10 million is amazing for anyone else) album is also probably his weakest artistically, at least in my opinion.

Regarding fans of other artists hating on MJ, I think you'll probably agree with me that it's more down to the individual than anything else. This "stan" thing which is surly something only young people do for the most part.

I love Kate Bush. I saw her Before The Dawn show second row from the front and it was one of the best shows I've ever been to.

I know what you mean about measuring success through commercial means, but it's swings and roundabouts. MJ was very concerned with being the best and I think he felt validated as an artist through his commercial successes. But for MJ, that spurred him on, to become the greatest. With other artists, being concerned with commercial viability often leads to them chasing trends, selling out, not being true to themselves etc. I don't think MJ ever had that problem, he always put his stamp on whatever he did, even when he was embracing new musical trends or using contemporary producers. This is partly why a project like Xscape kind of falls flat, because MJ's final touch is the missing ingredient.

But when I say it's swings and roundabouts, what concerns me as a fan of someone like Prince, is how his legacy will last for future generations. I am not concerned about this with Michael, despite everything that he's had thrown at him, I feel secure in my belief that his musical legacy will live on for hundreds of years to come, I truly believe that. MJ's music was always so universal, and young kids today love MJ just as they did thirty years ago. His hits compilations are constantly lingering in the charts, week in, week out. Thriller is played every Halloween without fail, you go to a wedding, nine times out of ten the DJ will play at least 2 or 3 MJ songs and everyone will get up on the dancefloor.

With Prince or Kate Bush and artists of their ilk, they have an almost cult following, and since Prince has passed, I have wondered what will become of his legacy once the people who became fans during his lifetime are gone. I mean, the man didn't exactly do himself any favours, by making so much of his music inaccessible, a good chunk of his later work is now out-of-print and he had an overly-zealous obsession with making sure his music couldn't be listened to or watched online without him being compensated for it. It's all very well taking that stance and fighting for artists rights, it some ways it's commendable, but what about preserving your own legacy for future generations? Warner Bros recently put out Prince's first posthumous release, a hits compilation which was fairly heavily promoted and has come out just in time for the Christmas market in the same year as his death. It failed to reach the top 20 here in the UK and just about scraped the top 40 Stateside. Prince could've had so much more universal appeal than he did, but he shot himself in the foot repeatedly and I fear his musical legacy will largely die out with his fanbase.

For MJ, he knew what he was doing. It wasn't just about being number 1 that week, he talked often about building a legacy and about the importance of his work living on and being immortalised. He achieved it through his unparalelled talent, attention to detail and ambiton, and whilst I think his appeal was unique exclusively to him, I do think other artists could've achieved a more enduring legacy had they taken the time and foresight to look beyond their own creative whims and self-indulgence.

You went to Before The Dawn?!!! Woah man! Lucky you, I've had to make due with the vinyl, a few candles and my imagination! I love her. She's such a beautiful human being. And her music is good too!

I know your a massive fan of Invincible but I do feel to a certain extent that by trying to follow the formula of his past success he made a less than great album (for him). I love four or five songs on it; genuinely feel things like Unbreakable, Break of Dawn, Speechless are innovative with new sounds and styles, You Rock My World is classic MJ at his very best and Threatened is something unique but overall feel that if he hadn't tried so hard to have so much sounds and cross appeal he could have made a better more consistent album. I hate always using Invincible as the example for making a point as I do love a lot about it and can't wait for the MOV into for Christmas, but every other album to that point were perfection. This is still an album I have on and off days with.

Prince, I think there's going to be a lot of fans out there depressed over the whole thing. I think Prince massively underestimated the power of YouTube, streaming and the Internet in general. Was he simply too stubborn to admit he was wrong after his "the Internet is dead" comment? Regardless of his legacy, 1999, Purple Rain, Sign etc will always be masterpieces, whether a million people hear them or one person, but, legacy is what sustains and ensures that the artist endures for sure. He done himself quite a disservice by going it alone for so long, he had a point about owning his masters but perhaps he should have embraced the industry and the Internet again ten years sooner. The coming years will be interesting and I'm curious as to how his estate will market and make money from his music as he's not really known by younger generations which is quite sad. Looking forward to the Purple Rain box set but wonder if it will have anything much on it.

 

[Tony R]

You guys make some really interesting points about Prince's legacy. Time will tell I guess but would be a real shame.

I reckon that it will be like The Beatles, it took years before they were on iTunes, Prince's Estate will get there eventually. A genius legacy like that won't die.

Interesting also about many music fans degenerating someone due to their commercial success.

MJ, Madonna both suffered for it.

 

[HIStoric]

You guys make some really interesting points about Prince's legacy. Time will tell I guess but would be a real shame.

I reckon that it will be like The Beatles, it took years before they were on iTunes, Prince's Estate will get there eventually. A genius legacy like that won't die.

Hopefully it will be, although I don't think it was as bad for The Beatles. At least they made it super easy to find their music by allowing it on YouTube (at least, until right before they jumped onto streaming services which is fair enough). In-fact YouTube was how I discovered Michael actually, I watched Thriller on there for the first time back in 2008 and afterwards rushed to go find my parents HIStory CD

I reckon it should be his Estate's first priority (and no doubt his distributor wants him on there ASAP). I know he's not against streaming because aside from Tidal right now, he did use to be on Spotify and Apple Music until mid-2015 or so. In fact I actually discovered some of his songs through Spotify back then. Like I mentioned earlier, it came down to monetary reasons - Tidal offered a slightly higher royalty rate.

Prince, I think there's going to be a lot of fans out there depressed over the whole thing. I think Prince massively underestimated the power of YouTube, streaming and the Internet in general. Was he simply too stubborn to admit he was wrong after his "the Internet is dead" comment? Regardless of his legacy, 1999, Purple Rain, Sign etc will always be masterpieces, whether a million people hear them or one person, but, legacy is what sustains and ensures that the artist endures for sure. He done himself quite a disservice by going it alone for so long, he had a point about owning his masters but perhaps he should have embraced the industry and the Internet again ten years sooner. The coming years will be interesting and I'm curious as to how his estate will market and make money from his music as he's not really known by younger generations which is quite sad. Looking forward to the Purple Rain box set but wonder if it will have anything much on it.

It's really odd because I think Prince was actually one of the first artists to sell an album digitally through the internet, in '96 or '97 or something. 15 years later, he had done a complete 180 (and never mind the public perception from the "internet is dead" comment, I remember thinking he was such a weirdo for claiming that).

I heard that Prince fans are looking forward to the upcoming Purple Rain boxset because it'll finally have decent, unreleased material that hasn't leaked previously.

Ironically, Invincible, one of his lowest selling probably isn't the greatest artistic statement from him, so perhaps having the drive to create the biggest sellers of all time were a big part of what brought out the best in him artistically.

Didn't Michael always have the drive to create the biggest selling album of all time though? At least, so he claimed. There was always that pressure to top Thriller, to reach that magic 100 million mark. I think other factors were involved for Invincible artistically that but well, we've all had countless threads on that topic so no need to go into that

 

[Deleted member 9375]

Yeah, The Beatles were always super accessible, I don't think I've ever been in a record store that didn't sell Beatles albums. Yes Prince's first internet venture was 1989 I believe, although I have no idea how that worked.

I guess MJ always had this drive to be the biggest but I just wonder if he second guessed himself on Invincible, and a lot of the tracks that didn't make the record are arguably stronger than many that made the cut. Yes I agree other factors come into it but outside of the whole Sony thing I think MJ's choices come into it also?

All of the things that the Estate/Sony have done for MJ's legacy (and I've complained about much of it) needs to happen for Prince, his music may not be as commercially familiar as MJ's but there's enough great material (especially the 80's) to use for marketing and branding. And as you say, they need to begin allowing for YouTube, streaming and not being so stringent on fans. They've got to sort out the NPG label also and merge it, The Gold Experience album alone contains two commercially accessible and massive tracks in Gold and The Most Beautiful Girl In The World. 4Ever was disappointing from a fan perspective and I haven't bought it myself as of yet, but I may pick it up and support. Hopefully it's just the begging of a massive rebranding and the vault material ensures new Prince material for the next hundred years or else mammoth Anniversay boxsets. I look forward to Purple Rain and hope it truly does come with a wealth of material as well as a concert DVD.

 

[HIStory]

It is interesting that formerly streaming was considered public enemy #1 against sales, but now it is considered a necessity. I think sometimes it works in the favour of an album's sales if it is withheld from streaming at least for the first couple of weeks after its release, but that is generally in the case of current hot acts and brand new hit albums by those current acts. Staying away from streaming (whether temporarily or permanently) has certainly helped the sales of Adele or Taylor Swift but they are current acts with current hit albums. But I think catalog artists do need the exposure that streaming gives to them. Even those managing the Beatles' catalog have learnt it by now and so they allowed the Beatles on Spotify. And the Beatles still has the old fashioned kind of music fans who do still buy physical albums. But if they want to reach the new generation too, they need to be on streaming sites. I think sooner or later Prince's management will have to realize that too - despite of whatever stance Prince might have had against the Internet/streaming.

And let's face it streaming is the way most kids today listen to music. I am not a today's kid but even I listen to most of my music on Spotify now. I do buy MJ's CDs because I want to have them physically, but he is basically the only artist by now I still buy CDs from and that is because he is special to me. With other artists I just stream them. And even MJs music, although I do own the CDs, but I listen to him mostly on Spotify because it is the most convenient form of listening to music. With the playlists that you can carry with you everywhere on your phone and so on.

And yes, it does suck to artists that with streaming they aren't getting paid as much as they used to with album sales. I understand the frustration with that and they need to figure out a business model that works for everyone, but you cannot stop technical development and you cannot put back the geenie in the bottle. It is what it is. But I think with legacy artists streaming actually helps sales and does not hinder them. MJ is on all kind of streaming platforms (YouTube, Spotify and so on), basically unlimited. But his albums still sell a healthy amount every year. Maybe they would sell even more if streaming didn't exist, but then you have Prince as an example of how not being on streaming sites does not seem to boost sales. So I tend to think that being present on streaming sites is actually good for legacy artists, not bad.

 

[Ms. BlueGangsta]

My $0.02 on MJ always wanting to be the best is that either way you look at it Michael's drive to be the best and the biggest served him MORE then well.
Before Michael no other black artist had truly been that big, and instead often times got snubbed or pushed away from the foreground for their white peers.

I'm sure Michael saw this and pretty much said I WILL BE THE BEST, I will NOT be ignored or denied because of my race, and more often then not in many fields the best black person has to be 10x better then the worst (or most relatively average) white person to garner the same amount of success/recognition.
This was especially true of the music industry, so without his drive to be the very best Michael as we know him today may have never existed.

Also, when you combine both his talent as an artist with his commercial success he DID indeed become the best, so once again his drive served him well.
Even Invincible, which is Michael's worst selling post-OTW album sold a number which most artists now dream of.
Regardless of opinions that some people have about the album, when one of your worst selling albums sells better then many others best selling albums you've overall done something right as an artist.

 

[DuranDuran]

The Beatles / Prince

There's a difference in Prince & The Beatles. All of the Beatles records were big. In the US, other than Purple Rain, and 1999 & Diamonds And Pearls to a lesser extent, Prince's albums weren't that successful. The Batman soundtrack sold because pretty much anything Batman was selling in 1989/1990. Only Batdance made the Top 10. A lot of his stuff wasn't that commercial. A single like If I Was Your Girlfriend didn't get pop airplay, but was played on R&B stations. The subject matter was too obscure for mainstream popularity, and the sound wasn't really something that would get a lot of pop airplay either. The Beatles had some weird songs too, but they came out in the psychedelic era, so fit in with what was popular with the hippies and flower children. Also The Beatles continued to get airplay long after they broke up. Many other acts remade their songs too from many genres. Fewer people remade Prince songs, and very few of the remakes became hits. The Beatles had movies made from their songs (Sgt Pepper with the Bee Gees and Across The Universe), their songs have been in other movies, TV shows, and commercials. There's probably been over a thousand books about the Beatles over the years, and are still being written today. They also have video games, dolls, comic books, a cartoon TV series, board games like Monopoly, clocks, and all kinds of merchandising. So The Beatles had a presence all this time even if they were never on the internet. There's tribute bands like 1964. Some of the more well known tribute acts have even had their concerts broadcast on TV. Can't say the same for Prince. He's never really had any sort of official merchandising other than maybe T-shirts. As solo acts the Beatles had success too, but Paul was the most commercially popular.