The move to Epic

ChrisC

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I saw a clip of that Channel 5 documentary the other day which claimed Michael solely approached Epic records and essentially brokered the deal which led to the Jackson 5 leaving Motown, unbeknownst to Joe or the brothers.

I hadn't heard this before and given the source I remain highly suspicious.

Does anyone have more information about this period?
 
I can only recall Michael approaching Berry Gordy at age 16, demanding they be granted creative freedom. He did that without talking it over with his father/brothers first. He wrote about it in his book. He described himself as a lion that day!

Do you have a link to this documentary?
 
I saw that documentary too, I've only heard the same that they wanted more artistic freedom and Berry Gordy was a bit of a tyrant. I think that Motown had clashed with a number of its artists who wanted to have more control over their artistic output. Jermaine only stayed as he married Gordy's daughter or i'm sure he would have been gone too
 
What was the name of the documentary? I want to look it up.

I heard that Michael had a meeting with the cbs bosses after Goin' Places. He wanted the group to have complete control over their next project. If they fail, they'd have no one to blame but themselves. They were granted that, and the album was Destiny :)

I can't recall any meeting prior to signing with cbs though..
 
Back in the day, I always read that it was Joseph that was fed up with Motown not giving his kids more creative control and negotiated with Epic. (After Michael talked to Berry).

He was premature and signed and announced it before the Motown contract was done.
So Berry sued, kept their name, and made them pay recording costs for unreleased music. Berry and CBS were in a fight for several years too.

Michael and Joseph together had a talk with the CBS execs after the first 2 albums and they let them do Destiny. Kind of a last chance.
 
Back in the day, I always read that it was Joseph that was fed up with Motown not giving his kids more creative control and negotiated with Epic. (After Michael talked to Berry).

He was premature and signed and announced it before the Motown contract was done.
So Berry sued, kept their name, and made them pay recording costs for unreleased music. Berry and CBS were in a fight for several years too.

Michael and Joseph together had a talk with the CBS execs after the first 2 albums and they let them do Destiny. Kind of a last chance.

This is more along the lines of what I understood.
 
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The Jackson family announced their decision to leave Motown at a press conference in the Rainbow Grill. For the conference, ten high-backed black chairs were arranged behind a long, narrow table on a dais; dozens of other high-backed black chairs were arranged to face the dais.

“We left Motown because we look forward to selling a lot of albums,” Tito Jackson answered.
“Motown sells a lot of singles. Epic sells a lot of albums,” Mr. Jackson added.

I’m sure the promotion will be stronger,” Michael Jackson said.

A reporter did ask if the Jacksons had tried to renegotiate their contract with Motown.
“Sure we tried to renegotiate with Motown,” Jackie said, “but the figures were just Mickey Mouse.”


https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1975/07/14/leaving-motown
 
with the Jacksons we will probably never know the exact details.. They all tell stories to make themselves sound important and like they played a role in big smart moves and Michael did a lot around that time to protect the family image.. Thus! reality and myth become foggy!
 
It was their father and manager Joseph Jackson who encouraged his sons to sign with Epic so they would be in position to eventually produced their own music, and that was probably the best advice they ever received in the long run
 
It was their father and manager Joseph Jackson who encouraged his sons to sign with Epic so they would be in position to eventually produced their own music, and that was probably the best advice they ever received in the long run

That's always what I thought, too. Strange for a documentary to actually credit Michael like that...it's usually them taking away credit where it's due haha

What does Michael say specifically about it in Moonwalk?
 
That's interesting! Another interesting that that i've recently learned is that in Michael's original contract he was obligated to deliever a solo album in 84 after thriller
 
That's interesting! Another interesting that that i've recently learned is that in Michael's original contract he was obligated to deliever a solo album in 84 after thriller


If so , then that would have been the bad album then?
 
I imagine that the gap between 'Thriller' and 'Bad' was quite big. Even though there were projects such as 'We Are The World' and 'Captain EO'...

Still, '84 would have been too early for a follow up. 'Thriller' was still riding high.
 
Yup... Thriller did so well they were able to string it along on the charts and with public attention for a few good years..
 
Yes, Joseph was their manager and we should give credit where it's due. However, let's not forget that Michael always had a vision for himself, and used initiative at various points to achieve his goals.

He took it upon himself as a child to put together a school performance, where he sang 'Climb Every Mountain'. This not only secured his place as a member of the Jackson 5, but it made him a leader.

He was already emulating the likes of James Brown, Jackie Wilson, Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, Sammy Davis Jr, etc... He, along with Marlon and Jackie were choreographing their dance numbers. Michael introduced the Robot during 'Dancing Machine' ten years before he did the Moonwalk, and years before he met Jeffrey Daniels and Vincent Patterson. I personally think his growth as a dancer really took place on the Variety Show, where his signature spin (my favourite) became noticeable. As well as the tapping, popping and locking, robot, splits, and for the first time, big broadway style numbers that he would later expand up with 'Beat It'

As was stated before, he organised a meeting with Berry Gordy at aged 16, without his family's knowledge. People may have been complaining behind the scenes, but Michael took action by letting Berry know where he, and the family stood, planting the seed for what was to come...

I say all this not to disregard all the help that Michael received from his family, producers, song writers, choreographers, managers, etc.. I've just noticed that especially since his death, people have been diminishing the input he had in his own career. He's not here to defend himself and that's not fair. This is why I have no interest in any future documentaries. I'd rather just view Michael at work if anything happens to leak.. I'm more than happy with the legacy he left behind :)
 
That how Motown was their had control over their artists Motown did everything you had no freedom. I grew up on Motown and that just how it was done. They wrote the songs and did the music all the artist had to do was to be there and sing the song. There was some many version of a songs because Motown had alots of their artists sing the same song to see which group fit this song. Moving to Epic was the best thing that the Jackson could have done.
 
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Whenever I find out a song I like is a cover I'm always disappointed. That happened a lot with Motown as you explained, with songs being shared around the label. Though artists like Smokey Robinson, Marvin Gaye, and Stevie Wonder were able to attain artistic freedom there.

Funnily enough, I've always preferred J5 originals such as 'Looking Through The Windows', 'We're Here To Entertain You', and 'Never Can Say Goodbye'. :)
 
In Moonwalk it says that Michael had the meeting on his own with Epic. I will double check that but am reading my original copy I got in 1988 again and it recently covered this section. I know he said that there was a huge weight on his shoulders about the whole thing. Very sad to think of someone that young shouldering so much burden.
 
Just checked in Moonwalk. Page 115 talks about leaving Motown. Michael says the brothers were all miserable "but no one was saying anything". Not his brothers or his father. So Michael alone went and had a meeting with Berry Gordy to tell him how unhappy they were and how they wanted more artistic freedom. Gordy didn't agree as we all know. When Michael then discusses the move to Epic on page 117 it isn't clear who set up/had meetings with them. It just states "we decided to try for a fresh start with another label, Epic."
 
Isn't it in Moonwalk where he talks about he and his dad talking to Epic? Where he says he and his brothers weren't the "right horses" for Gamble and Huff?
I thought it was-maybe not.
 
Isn't it in Moonwalk where he talks about he and his dad talking to Epic? Where he says he and his brothers weren't the "right horses" for Gamble and Huff?
I thought it was-maybe not.
If it is, I haven't got to that bit yet. X
 
Well I don't think it's any secret there was always an unspoken tention between Joe and Berry.. It would not be suprising for Joe to be the initiator!!
 
Here's an excerpt from "Making Michael"

"In January 1975, Motown released Michael’s fourth solo album, Forever, Michael. The album performed poorly, peaking at 101 on the Billboard 200 chart. This was eight places lower than Michael’s previous album of two years earlier, Music and Me, which includes songs such as the title track and ‘With a Child’s Heart’. Neither album reached the top 50 in the United Kingdom, selling poorly at a time when The Jackson 5’s record sales as a whole were declining. The group felt Motown was holding them back, not allowing them to write or produce their own music or play their own instruments.

They were unhappy with the sound of their music, and there was a real concern that more contemporary groups would overtake them if something didn’t change. “We want to try different things; we want to grow,”Michael explained. “It’s like the caterpillar must come out of the cocoon and be a butterfly. We have to try different things and grow and become all those different colours and elements and things like that. We’ve always wanted to write on Motown but it was never in our contract. And we could have changed our contract at Motown. But I don’t think people had confidence in us; they didn’t believe in us. They say, ‘Oh, you guys [are] just kids. Just go behind the mike’.

Neither Michael’s father Joseph nor his brothers spoke out about the issue, so Michael felt it was up to him to confront Berry Gordy about their feelings. But after meeting Gordy at his Bel Air mansion, Michael was told in no uncertain terms that the group’s songs would still be controlled by Motown’s writers and producers. If the brothers wanted to progress there was only one choice left, and that was to leave the label altogether.

Joseph and his attorney, Richard Arons, began began looking for a new record deal and chose to sign with CBS Records, headed by the volatile New Yorker Walter Yetnikoff, in the summer of 1975. CBS offered a royalty rate of 27% of the wholesale price for each record sold in the United States, compared with Motown’s standard 2.7%; and although Yetnikoff was sceptical about allowing the brothers to write and produce all of their own music, there would be more creative opportunities there than at Motown.

Life at CBS didn’t get off to the smoothest of starts; first the group were forced to change their name to The Jacksons, as Motown laid claim to the ‘Jackson 5’name. Jermaine also felt compelled to leave the group and stay with Motown and release solo albums, having married Berry Gordy’s daughter Hazel in 1973. He was replaced by the youngest Jackson brother, fourteen-year-old Randy, who had been an unofficial member of the group since 1972, playing congas onstage as part of their live act."
 
I still say Jermaine should have stay with the group and move with them to CBS he did not marry Motown he marry Hazel he felt he owe Motown and he could not leave. The brothers stay together for alittle bit but then went their separate way Michael continue with his solo career it was sad the brothers fell apart.
 
^ I can't blame him too much.. It was a hard decision.. Though he only talks about not leaving Motown because of his marriage but naturally a person in his position would HAVE to assume that a solo career with good backings from Motown would be behind him.. He probably thought, "shoot if I stay, I show I am loyal, it helps prevent any issues within the marrage, and Berry will see my dedication to the company" ie. solo career exploding..


Hey, a wish is a wish lol
 
On 'The Jacksons:A Family Dynasty' - Jermaine said it didn't have anything to do with his marriage, but was down to loyalty to Motown for everything they had done. Not sure I believe that though.
 
^ Well yeah, stating he stayed because of the marrage within the Jackson family does not fly.. Picking a woman (who's marraige did not last) over the JACKSON family does not fit into this "togetherness" image that is sold.. I'm sure IF the marriage lasted, he'd have a different tune.
 
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