Have We Lost The Real Michael?

[moonstreet]

So, its been 9 years since our world was destroyed and we lost Michael. In that time the fan community has gone through an enormous and at at times very aggressive change and divide. The fan community in July 2018 is very different to how it was in July 2008.

Looking back the change and divisions and all the conflicts were inevitable, we simply just did not know how to deal with the reality of Michael being dead.

Will all that being said, now in 2018, those of us who stuck with the fan community have made it though, battle scared and weary and are now trying to rebuild and repair.

My question now is, due to the conflicts, divides, aggressive change, have we lost the real Michael along the way?

One term I see alot of in the fan community is " Mike Like". This term just really really bothers me and frankly I hate it. It seems to signify that Michael was this saint like person, who could do no wrong, who had no vices such as swearing, drinking alcohol, didnt have sex, didnt argue.Its like those who use this term have turned Michael into some Puritan fantasy figure instead of a normal 50 year heterosexual single father raising 3 kids.

Its been used against me on Twitter, when I voice an opinion which does not tally with the saint like Michael people have created. I have been told "thats not a very Mike Like thing to say"


Another thing which I see alot of is" if Michael was here he would not like that" " if Michael was here he would not say that"
Now I know none of us really knew Michael BUT there are still many fans who spent alot of time with Michael during the last 10 years of his life. There are also alot of fans who spent years and years in the forums when Michael was alive and know things which are not known to the general public and casual fans. It really really annoys me when fans put words and actions as being something Michael would or would not do, when those fans never saw Michael in real life or were not part of the fan community when Michael was alive.

The final thing is all the digitally altered photos. Yes fan art is amazing and there are some really talented and creative fans out there BUT has the digital alteration and fan art gone too far? Many fans in 2018 dont know if a photo they are looking at is an original photo of Michael in a real situation or location, or a digitally created image from someones imagination, putting Michael into a situation or location that did not happen in real life. The most classic example is the monument to Michael outside the Jackson home in Gary Indiana, which has an image of an impersonator

So what do you think? Have we lost the real person Michael and replaced him with a fantasy figure moulded by the attributes, creative talents, thoughts and opinions of fans?

 

[dam2040]

It was bound to happen. Elvis died a fat, past it, shell of his prime self who couldn't chart on main charts but now people rank him one of the best entertainer's of all time and the king and whatever else. Fans were asking for refunds when he toured his final shows. His image now is very different.

The fan landscape is so different now. I think a lot of people who are newer fans have absolutely no idea just how negative being a Michael Jackson fan was for a very long time. You were automatically a nutcase to many people. I don't think the same is thought now. Even the tabloid stories were just downright disgusting. MJ has always been a god-like figure to many of his fans even when he was alive. Being Mike Like etc is a very odd concept. Very few people if anyone knew the real Michael Jackson and to claim he would speak a certain way or say certain things on topics is very odd.

I hate it so much. When MJ was alive it was all so special and magical. All the album rumours, pics of him in Vegas shopping with the kids.. just gone. It really hasn't sunken in fully to me. Don't know if it ever will. I used to get so much strength from seeing Michael persevere through it all. Life's a funny old thing.

 

[Zeus7]

A lot of the fan commmunity behaviour is the same now as it was before, unpleaseable and chart success obsessed, now instead of "Michael should / should have" its "the estate should have", Im thankful for the releases we've had since 09 and doubt michael would have released much if he were here, theres defo been bad decisions made by the estate but I remember how negitive people were about Invincible, I think the community needs to stop boycotting so much because in the end its MJ products that are being hurt. btw a friend of mines son, Noah, 5, is OBSESSED with Michael, wearing a fedora and dancing all off the back of Michael Jacksons Halloween, its great to see

 

[moonstreet]

A lot of the fan commmunity behaviour is the same now as it was before, unpleaseable and chart success obsessed, now instead of "Michael should / should have" its "the estate should have", Im thankful for the releases we've had since 09 and doubt michael would have released much if he were here, theres defo been bad decisions made by the estate but I remember how negitive people were about Invincible, I think the community needs to stop boycotting so much because in the end its MJ products that are being hurt. btw a friend of mines son, Noah, 5, is OBSESSED with Michael, wearing a fedora and dancing all off the back of Michael Jacksons Halloween, its great to see

These are business decisions, and there are always people who agree or disagree about business decisions which have been made or should have been made.

Just an FYI, saying fans are boycotting is not an entirely correct statement. Fans dont buy posthumous releases or support post posthumous projects for all sorts of reasons. Saying fans are boycotting is a very naive and simplistic viewpoint.

My question and the debate issue I am putting across is about the MAN Michael, not about the business decisions / music / posthumous releases / projects.

 

[Dunk96]

I definitely think the real Michael has gotten lost in the fantasyland some of these fans have created as well. I became a fan three-four years before he died (2005-2006) and once I started saying I was a fan I immediately became a social outcast by almost practically every person I met (my family was never one to cast me out about that thank God) so I knew exactly the change that occurred pre-June 25th and post-June 25th. I wouldn't say the fan base was crazier back then but post-June 25th is really seeing the onslaught of a barrage of lunatics that quite frankly give the huge fanatical fans of the yesteryear a run for their money in terms of craziness. So many fans since the day we lost him have come out of the woodwork,but many of them seem to lose sight of who Michael really was in the long run. They only see him as the dead celebrity he is now; they never got to experience the world with him being here. If I can be so frank,some of the post-June 25th fans always came off to me as "joining the bandwagon" since Michael had passed. Where were all of you when he was here? Oh that's right. Believing all the tabloid rumors about Michael and painting him as a freak and a wackjob. Quite honestly,we will never get Michael back and things will never go back to the way they were before he passed,but we really need to come back to reality and stop painting Michael as this saintly God figure. He was a human with faults and mistakes and that's what made him who he was,beyond just the entertainment aspect.

Edit: I forgot to expand on the general public as a whole in this post. Anyways I do think it's ridiculously ironic that so many people who had cast stones at Michael when he was alive had no problem whatsoever paying tribute to him once he died. Even seeing people out in the real world it's quite funny too that people who used to insult him and make jokes about him sing his praises now. It's just an interesting case of lack of appreciation until the person is no longer here,then they call him the greatest,but where was that when he was alive?

 

[dam2040]

That thread 'Did Michael have ANY faults' was almost stunning to read. To even think of that is wild.

 

[KOPV]

Forums are very different after Michael passed.. anyone that says otherwise is simply forgetting or wasnt aware.

Fans were much more respectful to each other, to Michael's family, and to anyone that surrounded themselves with michael.. there was only a handful of people that were "safe" to hate on - and they were usually negative "journalists"...

See it was known that Michael jackson had a log in here, so fans "behaved" with the knowledge that there is a small chance that Michael could read what they say.. the thought of michael reading our message made us think twice when we talk trash on one of his siblings or simply dont act in a way they would not want Michael to witness..

Now that hes gone people feel free to speak as they wish.. and yes we should all have freedom of speech. We just sometimes forget that doesnt mean freedom to disrespect.

 

[Korgnex]

When I read current rants and disrespective comments on Twitter by well-known so-called "real fans" (as they constantly describe themselves), it's sad to witness some of them are lacking proper education and manners how you treat other human beings.

In recent years there's always the stupidly childish remark about the will being fake because the place was incorrect. It's some of the first things you learn at a university in inheritance law that this is a very common mistake and the court did actually consult the signatories on that very matter.

Then I notice that some folks like the ****** are sticking to any and all kind of MJ's family, uncritically for the sake of getting their support for interviews and fan coverage/clickbaits - because what else would they report about, they need all of the Jacksons to have something to write about.
And on the other hand they are being totally biased towards John Branca or Alicia Yaffe - people they don't know for real - and are turning it into an amusement to constantly bash them while wallowing themselves in the continous self-aggrandising of their self-proclaimed expert knowledge about what Michael would want and not want and how Michael was and how he was not etc. It's cringeworthy.


It's so ironic that it was Michael's own family who betrayed fans and who introduced the wrong people to Michael.
Yet of course they cannot comprehend and acknowledge that Michael did infact become paranoid - there is enough documented footage he has lost confidence and was not himself occasionally - and because of the vultures around him he made the most naive and (yes!) idiotic decisions:
All the many ill-fated attempts at embarking into movie and corporate network business were the beginning of the end - yet they say he was "killed" which is utter nonsense. He surrounded himself with corrupt leeches and an unethical doctor treated him in a highly dangerous way, a common misfortune for those with fame and apple-polishers all around them. But he was "murdered", that's incredibly logical.
Then the often twisted dismissal of John Branca. Instead of actually asking why MJ would suddenly fire most of his business partners in the late 2003 turnaround and the result of the alleged "embezzlement" being that it was unfounded, John Branca & Co. are being mocked as the all "malicious, evil supremacists" that have been after Michael's catalogue. Often they would bring in the race issue to say MJ and other black artists were all slaves to powerful white business people. That's such a bottom drawer. The issues MJ had were rooted in his own mistakes when he did not meet deadlines, did not show up etc. He did burn a lot of money and was unpredictable. There was no single evil company, there were business people that decided they needed to pull the plug. MJ's single sales had already struggled in the USA since after "Black Or White" - even if many fans might not have realized that - and have become worse ever since after the 1993 allegations. All the incredibly high costs for Michael's extraordinary promotion had to be cut back after the 90ies had ended due to the music business descending for various reasons around the millennium. Michael did not understand that, many fans haven't either to this day. You have to look at the greater picture to understand things, there was no conspiracy against MJ. That's not to say there were no individuals people that were cheating Michael.


Some of Michael's fans are really an embarassment for the teaching of values. It's not a black and white story.
They persuaded themselves they are here to preserve what Michael allegedly stood for while all they do is shielding themselves from those things in real life they cannot comprehend and forcing their personal views on to others.

 

[smoothvillain]

There will always be fan perception and media distortion of Michael Jackson. He is a celebrity and people like to fantasize and think of their favorite celebrities in the greatest light and put them on the highest pedestal possible.

I signed up for this site because I consider myself to be a pretty hardcore MJ fan. I've been a fan since around 1993 - 1995 (when it wasn't cool) and I can only speak for myself. I'm fully aware of all the things he was accused of in his lifetime and how strange he appeared to be. I've read stories of what others have said and experienced, and will use my own judgment on what to believe, whether I'm wrong or right.

I'm only interested in his work as an artist and as a performer, if I can learn something different about him from time to time even if it pertains to his personal life, that's fine. I don't let it change my own perception of him. I acknowledge him as human, a very gifted human, but just a human. Being human comes with mistakes, faults, vices, jealousy, competitiveness, and a range of emotions just like every one of us.

I do read things on this site and scratch my head at what some people think when it pertains to Michael, but I still respect their opinion and do not hold it against them. I guess what it boils down to is since I did not know the man personally, I can only relate to him through music, dance, costuming; the entertainment side, which is what he wanted us to see.

 

[Mikky Dee]

What a great thread, so thank you moonstreet! This is exactly the kind of intelligent discussion I like to see happening within a Michael Jackson fan community!

Thank you to those people who have already contributed with your well thought out comments. Let's keep this going!!

 

[Daryll748]

I’ve bumped on this thread through the social media and decided to check it out lol
Sadly, I had to vote yes too as I feel like the new fans just portray Michael differently and NOT how he was.
‘That irks me and is quite frustrating and yes maybe that is why I’m quiet these days and I get caught up in the World Cup instead lol

Then again, there is always that pull of your heart string that says ‘No, I’ll show you how it really was as simply you don’t want that they taint MJ’s image somehow’ . I guess, that is the reason why I’m still here lol to share memories to kinda like show the new fans of who Michael was really like. Well, of course you never know someone inside and out as everyone just shows you the part that they want to show and want to be remembered by. Everyone has a side that you rather not see. That is human nature I’m sure.

Anyway, I’ve been thinking about this for awhile now too. It’s like a two edged sword really. We could be happy and positive that Michael still attracts young fans and his Magic is still somehow there to take them to places they’ve never been before.

Then again, we as long time fans seem to revolt of how the new fans treat Michael and maybe it’s just a different generation with other morals and values and I think that is the main reason why we feel that they don’t honour the real Michael cause How can they if they haven’t known him in his prime so to conclude this ramble...

I simply think it’s our duty to show them who Michael really is cause we have known him, we grew up in the same era as he lived. We experienced the hype and the hate, the glory and downfall and all the new ‘Moonwalkers’ (I do hate that term though lol) know is of how we talk about Michael and mostly of how the media portrays our hero.

So go forth and show them the REAL Michael that still lives in our hearts and yes, I know it’s NOT easy to dwell on the glory we had as we realise somehow how blessed we were and we have to live with this guilt that we lost him too soon. Then again, we can still rejoice and spread his message.

 

[ChrisC]

Forums are very different after Michael passed.. anyone that says otherwise is simply forgetting or wasnt aware.

Fans were much more respectful to each other, to Michael's family, and to anyone that surrounded themselves with michael.. there was only a handful of people that were "safe" to hate on - and they were usually negative "journalists"...

See it was known that Michael jackson had a log in here, so fans "behaved" with the knowledge that there is a small chance that Michael could read what they say.. the thought of michael reading our message made us think twice when we talk trash on one of his siblings or simply dont act in a way they would not want Michael to witness..

Now that hes gone people feel free to speak as they wish.. and yes we should all have freedom of speech. We just sometimes forget that doesnt mean freedom to disrespect.

For me it's just a case of being honest. Honest then and honest now. I didn't engage in blind worship then and I still don't.

I was never influenced or motivated in my true thoughts by the fear Michael might see it. But I didn't post here regularly pre-2009. I posted in other forums.

Tough love?

 

[KOPV]

^ anyone that's fairly familiar to the way I post knows I try to keep things at least semi balanced.. i have made comments about people acting more so worshiping than loving Michael.. sometimes i find it sad how far people take it..

I am not an enabler, even before Michael was gone I've made posts about his sleep issues (I got attacked for it).. i made posts about his self image of himself (attacked for it) and more.. each time I got attacked I read several worship-esk messages that I knew there was no debating with worship..

Now on the other hand.. many people post 2009 have taken things as a free for all and think they can "purge" out any negative opinion on anyone and everything and constantly become a negative presence.. people dont want to be around negative people in real life so why would people want to come to a place like MJCC to escape the real world to get more of the same negativity?

We are here out of love for Michael, not hate for those who hate on him..

Let's take the jackson family for example, have many of them done things that I find disgusting? Of course!! But they are HIS family, when Michael would participate in Family Day was it us there? No!! It was the brothers and sisters we tend to spit all over..

Yes I've openly expressed upset feelings towards some of them but I cant sit and continue attacking each of there characters when I know I see them through two filters.. 1. An outsider looking in. 2. A Michael jackson fan filter..

... we dont k om the whole story, and for us to be ones to scream that at MJ haters. That they dont know! We should have the mental capability to know we dont know about things regarding others.

People calling Paris stupid for standing up for family members??? Really? Some fans take it that far... like we know the family dynamic better than she does.. if anything shows delusional worship - it's that.

 

[ChrisC]

Now on the other hand.. many people post 2009 have taken things as a free for all and think they can "purge" out any negative opinion on anyone and everything and constantly become a negative presence.. people dont want to be around negative people in real life so why would people want to come to a place like MJCC to escape the real world to get more of the same negativity?

We are here out of love for Michael, not hate for those who hate on him..

That last sentence is precisely why one should be able to express a negative opinion without being railroaded on a forum as a hater or a negative person. There has been a problem here in the past that when someone doesn't agree with someone else they criticise them as blindly worshipping Michael or being that 'negative presence'. To be honest it's frustrating when people disrupt respectful discussion because they think it's 'too negative' or 'too positive'.

I don't come here to 'escape the real world'. I come here to discuss Michael, the good and the bad, and to hear and share opinions with other fans. It's that simple. It won't all be good. It won't all be bad. Yes, there have been trolls on this forum - I'm not talking about them.

 

[KOPV]

I think we both know it often goes far passed stating negative opinion on an action of an individual.. fans talk about others the way haters talk about michael.. within the past couple weeks ive seen one fan call another stupid for having a different opinion.. I've seen people shame paris for stating she hasn't argued with her aunt for several years and saying back off..

These are wrong! No need to shame Paris for defending her family like we know better.. youd think considering what shes dealt with in the past (and still) we could all be smart enough to know that she needs love not hate.. we never know where hate can push someone

 

[kai]

I remember very good that it indeed was different before MJ was gone.
I am still proud to be one of those who were here and in other online-communities years before MJ passed away.

Back then it definitely was not easy sometimes to admit you are an MJ fan. Especially around 2003-2008. I always had to defend MJ in school and myself for being a fan. I remember very well how the press changed everything suddenly from "he is a ***** and a no-one" to "he is the best, we always loved him" in 2009 after his death. That was a moment were i totally saw how you cannot trust media.

 

[Moonstreet]

back in after the ahem, software incident, thanks everyone for the great responses.

 

[stephenvalek]

Social media change,and it's not just MJ but MANY fan forums.
I've witnessed online attacks on members of a band,from so called fans of the band.Administrators subject to vile and disgusting personal attacks.
A lot goes on,and although the outside world view on MJ is slightly Improved,I believe inside fan forums,the shift changes from criticism against media,non fans etc,to criticism from fan to fan.

I still see it here,now,this forum..not so much.attacking in any way,but more patronising,and belittling people,that's almost it's like a competition in the best knowledge stakes.
How can people discover the "real Michael",and learn and be more knowledgeable,if certain traits continue and continue to exist.
Reluctance from me,I'm afraid,and reluctant to ask in that I visit here,just read and move on.

Sad,but I believe it can and will change

 

[KOPV]

I'll say this, its becomes a hard balancing act trying to be authentic while not crossing lines.. we have fans from all spectrums, fans that are constantly negative and others who can be overly kiss ass to Michael. That will create tension.. for realist it is hard to see fans that cant separate MJ the figure Michael publicized from Michael the person.. and those who believe so strongly in what Michael preached that realist seem like pessimists.

The fact is Michael was a special man, but still a man..

Same goes with the family, there are people that are Jackson fans and those who are really just Michael fans seem to never give Jackson fans room to love whatever member of the family they want.. those fans also pride themselves on MJ knowlege and love stating facts on why to hate on them.. but those same fans get so caught up on what's on paper as facts they forget that humans are much more complicated than a fact sheet..

Documents cant measure love, intentions, the story in between the lines.. but stating those facts def make a person feel smart for a moment doesn't it?

We need to find a common ground that we can all share our thoughts and opinions and feel safe doing so.. I personally am a huge MJ fan, I have respect for the jacksons as a whole for various reasons but niether the family nor Michael are perfect and I have opinions on all of it haha.. same goes with the estate! Theres alot I hold in not to seem disrespectful but at the same time o end up doing alot of defending of those who cant defend themselves.. I guess that's me trying to find the balance on my own.

 

[ShipOfFools]

It was extremely difficult to be a Michael Jackson fan from 1994-2009, and especially from around 1998 onward. I never stopped being a fan, but I was judged. People that are just discovering his music now, or post 2009, don't understand what it was like, and I don't think they ever will. And the old fans, the ones who lived through that, can't really relate to the people who didn't.

I think one thing we can all agree on is that the music, all of the music, Michael left us is wonderful. ?

 

[KOPV]

Admitting you were an MJ fan was opening yourself up to being picked on.. and for those of us that were in school post 93 allegations until the 2003-2005 case.
It was really hard, there were a couple years in Jr high that I didnt even talk about Michael much at all in public.. I wish i were braver at the time.. I was just already having a hard time fitting in and finding my place.


That struggle was real!

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Admitting you were an MJ fan was opening yourself up to being picked on.. and for those of us that were in school post 93 allegations until the 2003-2005 case.
It was really hard, there were a couple years in Jr high that I didnt even tall about Michael much at all in public.. I wish i were braver at the time.. I was just already having a hard time fitting in and finding my place.


That struggle was real!

I didn't really get into MJ until after he died but even then in school there was definitely a "you're weird if you like MJ" thing going on.

 

[L.T.D]

I guess I was lucky, I was openly a massive fan in high school from 2002-2007. I even openly impersonated him and people all saw videos of me doing it and I literally never got any grief as far as I remember.....it depends on the kind of people you are around, I have had bad experiences as a fan but it wasn’t really till the last few years long after he had died.

 

[Zeus7]

It was definitely hard being a fan through those times, the media and negitive press was crazy, I gotta say that is amazing that Michael's talent transcended that and he continued to reach new audiences and inspired singers and dancers, 1 million tickets sold for This Is It said it all for me

 

[KOPV]

I guess I was lucky, I was openly a massive fan in high school from 2002-2007. I even openly impersonated him and people all saw videos of me doing it and I literally never got any grief as far as I remember.....it depends on the kind of people you are around, I have had bad experiences as a fan but it wasn’t really till the last few years long after he had died.

Yeah, by the 00s the hate and various jokes were worn out.. It died out for sure! It was all old by that time. Plus he had new music that pushed at least SOME positivity.

 

[terrell]

You have to remember Michael was the biggest star on the planet and the bigger you are the more people may have something to say. but in truth, people who attack you really like MJ but want to be an A$$ because you like him. I always say lf Michael walk through the door to those you know who made rude remarks about him, see who would have been the FIRST up in his face, those so called haters going on how much they love him while you standing back in amaze at how they are behaving now.

 

[Krshna28]

A little off topic....

But all fanbases / fandoms have crazy (even lunatic) fans.

The problem is that, in the modern world with twitter (amongst other social platforms), they have a bigger voice.

MJ unfortunately has more haters then other artists.

Some of those people who keep attacking Paris (and her family) are not actually fans. But are probably those MJ haters who used to cyber bully her a few years ago.

 

[stephenvalek]

A little off topic....

But all fanbases / fandoms have crazy (even lunatic) fans.

The problem is that, in the modern world with twitter (amongst other social platforms), they have a bigger voice.

MJ unfortunately has more haters then other artists.

Some of those people who keep attacking Paris (and her family) are not actually fans. But are probably those MJ haters who used to cyber bully her a few years ago.

I would like to point out that "Crazy/Lunatic"can also include "well educated and obsessive".
That is so obsessive that any views/opinions,different to their own,results in a sharp response,in its mildest form of reaction.

 

[marialovesmjj]

As someone who’s been a fan since 01...I was really young back then so my memory isn’t the greatest but things have definitely changed and I think that’s part of the reason why I’ve kind of drifted away. I’ve seen the Mike like thing also and it to bothers me. I remember seeing it when he was alive as well though. But it didn’t seem so? Much? I mean there was definitely fans who were like... ya know....but that’s with anything.

I guess in someway it was inevitable but it was like he was the glue holding us all together. Now there is no glue...And it’s all kind of fallen apart. While I miss how things used to be I understand that it will never be that way again. It would be nice though if things could be a little more... together I guess? But there’s also that gap between pre 09 fans and after. I think that might make it hard for some to relate? Plus changing times. I think even if Michael were still here things would also be different. So much in general has changed in that amount of time...

I think at least with some people we have ‘lost’ him because of that gap. For them it’s like they are outside looking in...but either way it was going to happen.

I’m just tired. Except for a few all the friends or acquaintances I made over the years have gone God only knows where...

I want to feel invested in things again, I miss that even if it was just forms and stuff but what can be done if everything and everyone is so divided? I wish it wasn’t so but what can be done?

Sorry if I’m rambling.

 

[Moonstreet]

I’m just tired. Except for a few all the friends or acquaintances I made over the years have gone God only knows where...

I want to feel invested in things again, I miss that even if it was just forms and stuff but what can be done if everything and everyone is so divided? I wish it wasn’t so but what can be done?

Sorry if I’m rambling.

this , to me is how I feel too. Im tired and have lost so much motivation.

The amount of times I have been asked for "receipts" to prove I was at an event or saw Michael do something or heard Michael say something, as fans now wont even believe that we experienced things first hand. Its like now, show me proof or what you say is not true, because they dont understand how easy it was to see him in real life or how accessible he was to the fan community in general. They dont realise that that so many fans were on the forums for years and years and have a huge amount of information that the general public never knew.

One example is Omar Bhatti. He was known for years and years in the online fan community, photos of him with Michael were on forums etc. Yet in 2009 / 2010 he is suddenly Michaels secret child and all these "researchers" know that and wont listen to anyone who says different.

how do people feel about fans not knowing which is a digital creation imaged or an original photo? How do people feel about the Mike Like tag being used against fans who have a different viewpoint of Michael?