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Thread: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

   
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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    Also, rejecting a book judging only by the title of it (‘Making Michael’), shows the superficial way of your research.
    You sound so gullible. Hope you don't judge the book by its cover, in this case its title. Let's hope you at least read it. I have read books on Michael too, btw. And no book is EVER objective. Every book, even if written by an academic, has its bias and its flaws. And it is on the reader to detect those flaws or not. It is very clear from your posts that you are not objective when it comes to Michael yourself. You are obsessively arguing what Michael did not do, what Michael supposedly stole (without evidence) and so on. Seems you rely heavily on 'Making Michael'. Guess we will find all YOUR arguments there...

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by wednesday View Post
    You sound so gullible. Hope you don't judge the book by its cover, in this case its title. Let's hope you at least read it. I have read books on Michael too, btw. And no book is EVER objective. Every book, even if written by an academic, has its bias and its flaws. And it is on the reader to detect those flaws or not. It is very clear from your posts that you are not objective when it comes to Michael yourself. You are obsessively arguing what Michael did not do, what Michael supposedly stole (without evidence) and so on. Seems you rely heavily on 'Making Michael'. Guess we will find all YOUR arguments there...
    You keep embarrassing yourself with your funny & delusional posts.

    Anyway, I am not relying heavily on the ‘Making Michael’ book. Bear in mind, many things from ‘Making Michael’ had already been known & confirmed years before the release of that book.

    In fact, I am not relying heavily on any given single book.

    What is clear from my posts (in this community) is that most of them rely on a variety of reliable sources (videos, audios, books, interviews, press reports, chart/sales figures, etc).

    Make a quick search on my posts (in this community) in order to see that by yourself.

    A quick search here is a very easy procedure, even for you.

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    You keep embarrassing yourself with your funny & delusional posts.

    Anyway, I am not relying heavily on the ‘Making Michael’ book. Bear in mind, many things from ‘Making Michael’ had already been known & confirmed years before the release of that book.

    In fact, I am not relying heavily on any given single book.

    What is clear from my posts (in this community) is that most of them rely on a variety of reliable sources (videos, audios, books, interviews, press reports, chart/sales figures, etc).

    Make a quick search on my posts (in this community) in order to see that by yourself.

    A quick search here is a very easy procedure, even for you.
    you insult me by basically calling me a delusional, worthless, liar. you insult the fans by assuming they're mindless sheep, unable to do their own research, to draw their own conclusions. do you not realise how rude and condescending you're being? is it any wonder I don't want any interaction with you?

    all of this because you learned something new from my posts. I can easily continue to debunk all of your charges against me, as well as provide sources for my original claims. however, you don't deserve my time or energy.

    to those interested, i'd say that there are plenty of articles, books, interviews, tv reports, etc.. that chart the 'thriller' campaign in its various stages during its original run.

    my final word to you @mj_frenzy.. there's a difference between a 'fan' i.e someone who loves Michael's talents and what he stood for, and a 'Michael Jackson journalist'. I find you, and many others similar to you, to fall into the latter category. where Michael is not even looked at as a human being, instead he's just a subject to be dissected until there's nothing left. you look down upon him with judgement, and take everybody's else's word over his. as if you know more about his life and career than he did - the one who actually lived it! it's all about numbers and statistics . you may have access to unreleased material, but that doesn't mean that you actually like him. your posts don't radiate any type of joy at all. it's a shame, but it's not my problem..

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Anyone with a brain knows that Michael Jackson was in control of his own career. Like any human being, if MJ saw a good idea he ran with it. Its human nature to borrow and be inspired. Michael was an extremely talented individual, and the people he worked with were top notch. Nobody is suggesting that MJ hand crafted every single move in his career. That's just silly. Of course Michael was only human and he used his life experience to fuel his music, this includes being inspired by other artists and songs. The people he worked with contributed greatly to his success, you'd have to be a fool to deny that. However, you'd also have to be a fool to think MJ was some Britney Spears style bimbo who sat there and offered very little to his career. There was only ONE captain in MJ's ship and that was him. He made the final calls, he made the final decisions, etc. Whether it was the songwriting, the choice of singles, the dance moves, the music videos, the vocals, the appearances, the tours, the business decisions, the connection with the fans.... YES Michael had help along the way, but it was him who made the magic. To hear fans try to demean Michaels success is just sad.

    I've always looked at it like this: Michael was always pure magic. He was smart enough to surround himself with the best people who would capitalize on his talents. They were able to work with MJ, and funnel his creativity into the real world. You have to give the man credit for picking successful individuals that worked well with him, and helped push him higher. It wasn't just some luck of the draw, some freak cosmic lining of the stars. Michael knew what he was doing. That part was always very clear to me.
    Last edited by travis3000; 10-12-2018 at 09:33 PM.

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  8. #35
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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael's Essence View Post
    you insult me by basically calling me a delusional, worthless, liar. you insult the fans by assuming they're mindless sheep, unable to do their own research, to draw their own conclusions. do you not realise how rude and condescending you're being? is it any wonder I don't want any interaction with you?

    all of this because you learned something new from my posts. I can easily continue to debunk all of your charges against me, as well as provide sources for my original claims. however, you don't deserve my time or energy.

    to those interested, i'd say that there are plenty of articles, books, interviews, tv reports, etc.. that chart the 'thriller' campaign in its various stages during its original run.

    my final word to you @mj_frenzy.. there's a difference between a 'fan' i.e someone who loves Michael's talents and what he stood for, and a 'Michael Jackson journalist'. I find you, and many others similar to you, to fall into the latter category. where Michael is not even looked at as a human being, instead he's just a subject to be dissected until there's nothing left. you look down upon him with judgement, and take everybody's else's word over his. as if you know more about his life and career than he did - the one who actually lived it! it's all about numbers and statistics . you may have access to unreleased material, but that doesn't mean that you actually like him. your posts don't radiate any type of joy at all. it's a shame, but it's not my problem..
    Why are you responding to my posts that are not meant for you while not responding to my posts that are meant for you?

    Are you a case of a split personality?

    I never offended anyone here, let alone insulting anyone here using those particular words.

    But when I see certain delusional posts, false myths, inaccuracies, distorted events, I will set the record straight. I am not going to apologize for setting the record straight.

    Fortunately, there are also many other knowledgeable members in this community who set the record straight when they have to, as well.

    By the way, I called as delusional posts those ones posted by that other user, not by you.

    Look at all my posts in this thread again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael's Essence View Post
    I can easily continue to debunk all of your charges against me, as well as provide sources for my original claims. however, you don't deserve my time or energy.
    That sounds more like you have run out of arguments to challenge me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael's Essence View Post
    my final word to you @mj_frenzy.. there's a difference between a 'fan' i.e someone who loves Michael's talents and what he stood for, and a 'Michael Jackson journalist'. I find you, and many others similar to you, to fall into the latter category. where Michael is not even looked at as a human being, instead he's just a subject to be dissected until there's nothing left. you look down upon him with judgement, and take everybody's else's word over his. as if you know more about his life and career than he did - the one who actually lived it! it's all about numbers and statistics . you may have access to unreleased material, but that doesn't mean that you actually like him. your posts don't radiate any type of joy at all. it's a shame, but it's not my problem..
    No.

    There is a difference between being a delusional fan (who blindly praises MJ in every given opportunity) & being a level-headed fan who can see things that MJ did not really deserve to be praised.

    I am happy that I belong to the latter category.

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by travis3000 View Post
    Anyone with a brain knows that Michael Jackson was in control of his own career. Like any human being, if MJ saw a good idea he ran with it. Its human nature to borrow and be inspired. Michael was an extremely talented individual, and the people he worked with were top notch. Nobody is suggesting that MJ hand crafted every single move in his career. That's just silly. Of course Michael was only human and he used his life experience to fuel his music, this includes being inspired by other artists and songs. The people he worked with contributed greatly to his success, you'd have to be a fool to deny that. However, you also have to be a fool to think MJ was some Britney Spears style bimbo who offered very little to his career. There was only captain in MJ's ship and that was him. He made the final calls, he made the final decisions, etc. Whether it was the songwriting, the choice of singles, the dance moves, the music videos, the vocals, the appearances, the tours, the business decisions, the connection with the fans.... YES Michael had help along the way, but it was him who made the magic. To hear fans try to demean Michaels success is just sad.

    I've always looked at it like this: Michael was always pure magic. He was smart enough to surround himself with the best people who would capitalize on his talents. They were able to work with MJ, and funnel his creativity into the real world. You have to give the man credit for picking successful individuals that worked well with him, and helped push him higher. It wasn't just some luck of the draw, some freak cosmic lining of the stars. Michael knew what he was doing. That part was always very clear to me.
    Your post overall is a balanced one.

    But, about MJ being the only captain in his ship during his career, that is not entirely true.

    In many cases MJ was not the only captain in his ship, because his ideas (during his career) were eventually rejected by other people whose decisions predominated over his in the end.

    For example, MJ wanted a ‘BAD’ three-disc set, but his idea was rejected by Quincy Jones & Bruce Swedien.

    MJ wanted also a ‘HIStory’ three-disc set, but his idea was rejected by the record company because his idea would not have been a profitable move (due to the higher costs of the additional third disc).

    MJ wanted ‘Unbreakable’ as the first single from 'Invincible', but the record company opted for ‘You Rock My World’.

    MJ wanted a close-up of his face with a patterned lace net as the official ‘BAD’ album cover, but Walter Yetnikoff (President of CBS Records) rejected his idea in favour of the officially released cover.

    MJ wanted the ‘Ben’ album cover to depict also rats, but the record company rejected his idea, so the official cover came out with no rats.

    MJ wanted to continue using his characteristic vocal trademarks (such as, his ‘hee hees’) for the ‘Invincible’ album, but his collaborators rejected his idea because they wanted from him to have (for that album) a mostly new vocal style rather than rehashing some of his old, overused vocal styles.

    There are more examples, but I think I have already made my point clear about that.

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    Your post overall is a balanced one.

    But, about MJ being the only captain in his ship during his career, that is not entirely true.

    In many cases MJ was not the only captain in his ship, because his ideas (during his career) were eventually rejected by other people whose decisions predominated over his in the end.

    For example, MJ wanted a ‘BAD’ three-disc set, but his idea was rejected by Quincy Jones & Bruce Swedien.

    MJ wanted also a ‘HIStory’ three-disc set, but his idea was rejected by the record company because his idea would not have been a profitable move (due to the higher costs of the additional third disc).

    MJ wanted ‘Unbreakable’ as the first single from 'Invincible', but the record company opted for ‘You Rock My World’.

    MJ wanted a close-up of his face with a patterned lace net as the official ‘BAD’ album cover, but Walter Yetnikoff (President of CBS Records) rejected his idea in favour of the officially released cover.

    MJ wanted the ‘Ben’ album cover to depict also rats, but the record company rejected his idea, so the official cover came out with no rats.

    MJ wanted to continue using his characteristic vocal trademarks (such as, his ‘hee hees’) for the ‘Invincible’ album, but his collaborators rejected his idea because they wanted from him to have (for that album) a mostly new vocal style rather than rehashing some of his old, overused vocal styles.

    There are more examples, but I think I have already made my point clear about that.
    HIStory statue MJ hated apparently too. Thought it looked amateurish. MJ was great but also an artist like the rest of them - often business ppl made certain choices.

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    MJ wanted to continue using his characteristic vocal trademarks (such as, his ‘hee hees’) for the ‘Invincible’ album, but his collaborators rejected his idea because they wanted from him to have (for that album) a mostly new vocal style rather than rehashing some of his old, overused vocal styles.

    There are more examples, but I think I have already made my point clear about that.
    Come on, that was just a suggestion rather than a demand. Do you really think any producer had a say if Michael could use his Hee-Hee's?. That's ridiculous. MJ probably wanted to reinvent himself during that time. Also there are multiple instances on invincible where he uses his vocal trademarks.

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    Your post overall is a balanced one.

    But, about MJ being the only captain in his ship during his career, that is not entirely true.

    In many cases MJ was not the only captain in his ship, because his ideas (during his career) were eventually rejected by other people whose decisions predominated over his in the end.

    For example, MJ wanted a ‘BAD’ three-disc set, but his idea was rejected by Quincy Jones & Bruce Swedien.

    MJ wanted also a ‘HIStory’ three-disc set, but his idea was rejected by the record company because his idea would not have been a profitable move (due to the higher costs of the additional third disc).

    MJ wanted ‘Unbreakable’ as the first single from 'Invincible', but the record company opted for ‘You Rock My World’.

    MJ wanted a close-up of his face with a patterned lace net as the official ‘BAD’ album cover, but Walter Yetnikoff (President of CBS Records) rejected his idea in favour of the officially released cover.

    MJ wanted the ‘Ben’ album cover to depict also rats, but the record company rejected his idea, so the official cover came out with no rats.

    MJ wanted to continue using his characteristic vocal trademarks (such as, his ‘hee hees’) for the ‘Invincible’ album, but his collaborators rejected his idea because they wanted from him to have (for that album) a mostly new vocal style rather than rehashing some of his old, overused vocal styles.

    There are more examples, but I think I have already made my point clear about that.
    Fair enough, like I said.... others 100% contributed, nobody can deny that. All Im saying is, while Michael maybe had a certain idea he was always open to other peoples opinions as well. He took their opinion in certain cases. But it pains me to hear you bring up all the cases where Micheal didn't get his way, and conveniently forget when he DID get his way. Here's just a few

    -Quincy Jones felt that the intro to Billie Jean was too long and wanted to cut it, he felt that it was too long and the listener would be bored. Michael insisted that it stay the way he wrote it and he WON! And thank god he did.

    -Micheal wanted to do a music video for Thriller but his record label basically laughed him and his manager off and refused to pay for it, so Michael fronted the money himself because he BELIEVED in his art.

    -Quincy Jones felt that Smooth Criminal was too weak of a track for Bad and didn't even want the song on the tracklist. Michael insisted and he got his way, thank god as this song became a MJ classic that inspired so many artists.

    -Michael wanted to buy the Sony/ATV catalogue even though many people advised him against it, stating it was a bad investment, too expensive and overpriced, etc. They even stalled in negotiations but MJ advised Branca to buy it no matter what, he got his way and that $47 million investment doubled to $100 million in 1995 when MJ merged the company with Sony. And again yielded $1 BILLION in dividends when the company was sold off in the past couple years as a $750 million payout for the ATV and another $260 million for the EMI catalogue. Considering how valuable this company was, I would say that stubborn mindset was MJ's best decision financially.

    --

    Here's the reality..... like any star Michael was obviously influenced by business partners, managers, record labels, etc. He took their opinion at times, other times he didn't. He was inspired by others without a doubt. But MJ put WAY more effort into shaping his career then most of the other stars I've read about. He made some great decisions, wrote some incredible songs, and made history along the way. He was the IT factor, not the management, not the other songwriters, not the producers, not the label, but HIM.

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    Default record labels

    Quote Originally Posted by dam2040 View Post
    MJ was great but also an artist like the rest of them - often business ppl made certain choices.
    I don't know why people think recording artists are the boss. They're employees of a record company, no different than workers of any other business. An employee working at a store doesn't tell the boss what to do. Unless the act is self releasing their music, then they don't have a lot of say. Performers signed to record labels, both major & indie, have been ripped off the entire time the recording industry has existed. That's how the Beatles lost their publishing that Mike was later able to buy.

    Labels sometimes release records to fail on purpose for a tax writeoff or if the act is planning to leave the label for another. Many acts did whatever their manager told them to do, especially when the entertainment industry had the mafia behind the scenes. If the artists really had power, then there would have never been complaints like with Mike, George Michael, Little Richard, TLC, Prince, Mariah Carey, John Fogerty, Metallica, etc. Sony kept George Michael in litigation for years because they could afford to do so. George not as much. The Jackson 5 left Motown because they had no say in their records and then Motown sued them saying they owned the Jackson 5 name. That's why they became The Jacksons. There's other groups that had to change their names for the same reason with other labels like The Moments & War.

    Record label bosses and artist managers have been known to add their names to songwriting credits, without the songwriters knowledge. It's legal if they're the ones registering the songs or if it's through the labels publishing company. Labels have also remixed albums that were turned in by acts and put them out. Not as in a dance remix, but just the original tracks. Or they've refused to release the material, but they still own the masters. That's how the labels had songs that were previously unreleased or alternate versions for reissues & box sets in the CD era.

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    Default long versions

    Quote Originally Posted by travis3000 View Post
    Quincy Jones felt that the intro to Billie Jean was too long and wanted to cut it, he felt that it was too long and the listener would be bored. Michael insisted that it stay the way he wrote it and he WON! And thank god he did.
    Actually Billie Jean was cut on the album and so was The Lady In My Life. That was because they were too long for a record, not because of listeners being bored. Records could only hold a certain amount of time, anything longer, a record would lose sound quality. That wouldn't be the case with a cassette though. If they kept the uncut versions they would have had to make Thriller a double album, which in general don't sell as well because they cost more. The full Billie Jean was released on maxi single though. The earlier printings of Thriller had the lyrics for both the longer versions

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    But, about MJ being the only captain in his ship during his career, that is not entirely true.

    In many cases MJ was not the only captain in his ship, because his ideas (during his career) were eventually rejected by other people whose decisions predominated over his in the end.

    For example, MJ wanted a ‘BAD’ three-disc set, but his idea was rejected by Quincy Jones & Bruce Swedien.

    MJ wanted also a ‘HIStory’ three-disc set, but his idea was rejected by the record company because his idea would not have been a profitable move (due to the higher costs of the additional third disc).

    MJ wanted ‘Unbreakable’ as the first single from 'Invincible', but the record company opted for ‘You Rock My World’.

    MJ wanted a close-up of his face with a patterned lace net as the official ‘BAD’ album cover, but Walter Yetnikoff (President of CBS Records) rejected his idea in favour of the officially released cover.

    MJ wanted the ‘Ben’ album cover to depict also rats, but the record company rejected his idea, so the official cover came out with no rats.

    MJ wanted to continue using his characteristic vocal trademarks (such as, his ‘hee hees’) for the ‘Invincible’ album, but his collaborators rejected his idea because they wanted from him to have (for that album) a mostly new vocal style rather than rehashing some of his old, overused vocal styles.

    There are more examples, but I think I have already made my point clear about that.
    Pettifoggery

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by dam2040 View Post
    HIStory statue MJ hated apparently too. Thought it looked amateurish.
    Concerning the promotion of the ‘HIStory’ album, MJ also wanted to replace the HOLLYWOOD letters (Hollywood Sign on Mount Lee in California) with the HIStory letters.

    That was another idea that he had which was eventually rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by travis3000 View Post
    Fair enough, like I said.... others 100% contributed, nobody can deny that. All Im saying is, while Michael maybe had a certain idea he was always open to other peoples opinions as well. He took their opinion in certain cases. But it pains me to hear you bring up all the cases where Micheal didn't get his way, and conveniently forget when he DID get his way. Here's just a few

    -Quincy Jones felt that the intro to Billie Jean was too long and wanted to cut it, he felt that it was too long and the listener would be bored. Michael insisted that it stay the way he wrote it and he WON! And thank god he did.

    -Micheal wanted to do a music video for Thriller but his record label basically laughed him and his manager off and refused to pay for it, so Michael fronted the money himself because he BELIEVED in his art.

    -Quincy Jones felt that Smooth Criminal was too weak of a track for Bad and didn't even want the song on the tracklist. Michael insisted and he got his way, thank god as this song became a MJ classic that inspired so many artists.

    -Michael wanted to buy the Sony/ATV catalogue even though many people advised him against it, stating it was a bad investment, too expensive and overpriced, etc. They even stalled in negotiations but MJ advised Branca to buy it no matter what, he got his way and that $47 million investment doubled to $100 million in 1995 when MJ merged the company with Sony. And again yielded $1 BILLION in dividends when the company was sold off in the past couple years as a $750 million payout for the ATV and another $260 million for the EMI catalogue. Considering how valuable this company was, I would say that stubborn mindset was MJ's best decision financially.

    --

    Here's the reality..... like any star Michael was obviously influenced by business partners, managers, record labels, etc. He took their opinion at times, other times he didn't. He was inspired by others without a doubt. But MJ put WAY more effort into shaping his career then most of the other stars I've read about. He made some great decisions, wrote some incredible songs, and made history along the way. He was the IT factor, not the management, not the other songwriters, not the producers, not the label, but HIM.
    2 out of your 4 cases are misleading.

    DuranDuran set the record straight by explaining to you the real story concerning the shorter version of ‘Billie Jean’ (along with 'The Lady In My Life') on the album.

    Quincy Jones & Bruce Swedien were fully aware that in order to get optimal sonic quality (with one LP) they had to keep the duration at around 20 - 25 minutes per vinyl side.

    Certain cuts happened also on the ‘BAD’ album for the exact same reason.

    About the ‘Thriller’ video, it was Frank Dileo’s idea who believed in that video’s potential for helping the album at that time both in terms of more sales & bigger chart success.

    MJ simply followed Dileo’s advice on that.

  19. #44
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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Man, HIStory replacing Hollywood would’ve been amazing.

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Ben DID come out with rats on the cover, but what is THAT meant to prove? Very few artists had complete control at Motown let alone a 13 year old kid...

    Put it this way, if Michael was simply as good as the people around him and his record company executives then what Michael achieved, and the length and breadth of his influence, could have been reached by most artists with those kinds of opportunities.

    Michael conquered the world because of one thing and that was him - all that talent and personality and charisma.

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