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Thread: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

   
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    Default If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Just a thought.

    If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album or on its follow-ups, and the Estate recently would have pulled its demo tapes from the vault in order to hand them over to some shity 3rd class wannabe producers for contemporizing it, how bad would such an outcome be???

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    If Billie Jean wasn’t released on Thriller, Michael wouldn’t have become the artist that he did.

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    ^ seems that way but I doubt that.. it wasnt the song itself that took thriller to the stratosphere, along with all other factors of the album it was that performance that pushed the popularity of that song and brought attention to him in ways never before seen
    . He was interested in debuting the moonwalk, if Billie jean wasnt around at the time we would associate the moonwalk to another song.. he would habe used it in beat it, thriller or any other danc step.. imagine for how big thriller video was, imagine if that was the first time people saw the moonwalk too.. tripping out even more over that video.. I dont think he would have waited til 1984 though, we would have seen it around the same time we did.. maybe even that night to another song
    **He lives forever within us**

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    ^

    'beat it' and 'thriller' didn't have those musical interludes that were a perfect fit for the moonwalk to take place. it would have been random and not as effective in my opinion. the music was a large part of what allowed that to happen. it was also better in a solo performance rather than having to compete with group choreography.

    'billie jean' had already been number 1 on both 'sides of the pond' before Motown 25. the subject matter, composition, production values, and of course, Michael's tormented vocals, created an unusual and intriguing instant classic. yes, the visuals helped to propel everything, but the magic was already there.

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by KOPV View Post
    ^ seems that way but I doubt that.. it wasnt the song itself that took thriller to the stratosphere, along with all other factors of the album it was that performance that pushed the popularity of that song and brought attention to him in ways never before seen
    . He was interested in debuting the moonwalk, if Billie jean wasnt around at the time we would associate the moonwalk to another song.. he would habe used it in beat it, thriller or any other danc step.. imagine for how big thriller video was, imagine if that was the first time people saw the moonwalk too.. tripping out even more over that video.. I dont think he would have waited til 1984 though, we would have seen it around the same time we did.. maybe even that night to another song
    I can't see the moonwalk associated to another song. Moonwalk and Billie Jean go hand in hand. Like Michael's Essence said, moonwalk wouldn't have been effective and looked out of place with another song.
    Last edited by Nite Line; 03-12-2018 at 08:22 PM.

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    The huge success of the ‘Thriller’ album was not really because of ‘Billie Jean’ & that moonwalk on Motown 25.

    MJ’s performance at that event did increase sales of that album, but only briefly for the several following days.

    The huge success of the ‘Thriller’ album happened due to the release of the ‘Thriller’ video (which came out a year after the album’s initial release).

    Look at & compare the album’s sales figures during that period.

    Also, if ‘Billie Jean’ came out today in demo form for the first time & 3-class producers tried to contemporize it, the result would have sounded hasty & scrappy.

    Suffice it to say, there were over 90 different mixes of ‘Billie Jean’ & in the end they chose the best one which made the album.

    Finally, if there was no ‘Billie Jean’, his moonwalk would have been used & associated with other song(s) in a similar effective way as in 'Billie Jean'.

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    You can't pick and choose which bits to take out and leave in. All of these parts working together at exactly the right time created the perfect storm. It's like Jimmy Jam said, you can't create that.

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    there's such an effort to detract from the greatness that happened during this time . to make it seem as though Michael just 'got lucky', and it could have happened to anyone. as if his own talent, hard work, and uniqueness had nothing to do with it . i'm not going to go into *why* that's happening, but I know the reasons..

    even if I was the only person who bought 'thriller', it still wouldn't change how I feel about it. i'm so thankful for its existence

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Hahaha, nobody answered the man’s question! I will give it a try.

    I believe it would be an interesting result but due to classic bad decisions from the Estate, the hype would soon fade. (Hollywood Tonight would have been massive for instance, if MJ released it during his time)

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    If billie jean wasnt on the album it wouldve become the biggest album of all the time. That song is the reason mike's career went sky rocketed and become one of the best selling singles of all time

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael's Essence View Post
    to make it seem as though Michael just 'got lucky', and it could have happened to anyone. as if his own talent, hard work, and uniqueness had nothing to do with it
    He was also very lucky.

    He was very lucky, for example, in being surrounded by some of the best musicians in the world while making the ‘Thriller’ album.

    Had it not been for the vital contributions of some people who worked on that album (such as Quincy Jones, or certain sound engineers/technicians), Thriller would have been a mess.

    Keep in mind that MJ’s over-reliance on such people while making his albums (‘Thriller’, in this case) has not been a secret.

    He was also very lucky in collaborating with certain people who worked on making the ‘Thriller’ video, a video which alone gave the album many additional million sold copies globally in just the following several months after the video’s release.

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    He was also very lucky.

    He was very lucky, for example, in being surrounded by some of the best musicians in the world while making the ‘Thriller’ album.

    Had it not been for the vital contributions of some people who worked on that album (such as Quincy Jones, or certain sound engineers/technicians), Thriller would have been a mess.

    Keep in mind that MJ’s over-reliance on such people while making his albums (‘Thriller’, in this case) has not been a secret.

    He was also very lucky in collaborating with certain people who worked on making the ‘Thriller’ video, a video which alone gave the album many additional million sold copies globally in just the following several months after the video’s release.
    i'm not denying that Michael got help from some very talented people to help him achieve his vision. that being said, it was still *his* vision. many people, quincy included, doubted that 'thriller' would outsell 'off the wall', let alone go on to be the biggest selling album of all time. Michael knew. it had been his dream since he was a child.

    'thriller' the album had already achieved that before the film was even shot (john landis even claims this). it was already the biggest selling studio album by a solo artist (and remains to this day). Motown 25 and 'thriller' the film, definitely contributed to that. yet even without those, he still had the 'billie jean' and 'beat it' videos - which were ground breaking for their time. 'billie jean' broke the colour barrier on mtv, and used state of the art light illusions and split screen effects. 'beat it' used real gang members and shot on location. it had a more linear narrative, and used broadway style choreography previously unseen in this medium, to preach non violence. there *was* a message. it was more of a mini movie this time. the red zipper jacket took on a life of its own. that song, along with the others that Michael wrote, were already vivid in imagery, so the directors (that Michael himself sought out, except for steve barron) had plenty to work with. 'billie jean' has one of the most recognised basslines in pop music. 'wanna be startin' somethin' among other things, is famous for the funny lyrics and chant. that, along with 'human nature', are some of his most performed songs of his career - live I might add! they didn't even have videos. people attended the 'victory' to tour to see those songs (along with the rest of the album).

    Michael was the nucleus of all of this. who else had the range and passion to sing those songs convincingly? who else could develop their own move set, and integrate it with past and present dance styles the way he did? the curls, the clothes, the make up, the vocal ticks.. these were all ongoing if you pay attention to his evolution... he did not arrive with 'thriller'. the Jackson 5 were already global superstars, who had cartoon and variety shows. they performed for royalty, and toured the world twice over. Michael had done a movie, wrote solo songs, and set a record for 4 top 10 singles from one album ('off the wall'). he paid his dues. 'thriller' was the bonus. to act as if Michael was an interchangeable puppet in an assembly line is a false insult.


    many fans may take all this for granted, but without it, what came after would not exist today. at least give it that much respect.

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael's Essence View Post
    i'm not denying that Michael got help from some very talented people to help him achieve his vision. that being said, it was still *his* vision. many people, quincy included, doubted that 'thriller' would outsell 'off the wall', let alone go on to be the biggest selling album of all time. Michael knew. it had been his dream since he was a child.

    'thriller' the album had already achieved that before the film was even shot (john landis even claims this). it was already the biggest selling studio album by a solo artist (and remains to this day). Motown 25 and 'thriller' the film, definitely contributed to that. yet even without those, he still had the 'billie jean' and 'beat it' videos - which were ground breaking for their time. 'billie jean' broke the colour barrier on mtv, and used state of the art light illusions and split screen effects. 'beat it' used real gang members and shot on location. it had a more linear narrative, and used broadway style choreography previously unseen in this medium, to preach non violence. there *was* a message. it was more of a mini movie this time. the red zipper jacket took on a life of its own. that song, along with the others that Michael wrote, were already vivid in imagery, so the directors (that Michael himself sought out, except for steve barron) had plenty to work with. 'billie jean' has one of the most recognised basslines in pop music. 'wanna be startin' somethin' among other things, is famous for the funny lyrics and chant. that, along with 'human nature', are some of his most performed songs of his career - live I might add! they didn't even have videos. people attended the 'victory' to tour to see those songs (along with the rest of the album).

    Michael was the nucleus of all of this. who else had the range and passion to sing those songs convincingly? who else could develop their own move set, and integrate it with past and present dance styles the way he did? the curls, the clothes, the make up, the vocal ticks.. these were all ongoing if you pay attention to his evolution... he did not arrive with 'thriller'. the Jackson 5 were already global superstars, who had cartoon and variety shows. they performed for royalty, and toured the world twice over. Michael had done a movie, wrote solo songs, and set a record for 4 top 10 singles from one album ('off the wall'). he paid his dues. 'thriller' was the bonus. to act as if Michael was an interchangeable puppet in an assembly line is a false insult.


    many fans may take all this for granted, but without it, what came after would not exist today. at least give it that much respect.
    I admire your loyalty towards MJ but your post has some inaccuracies.

    For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael's Essence View Post
    'thriller' the album had already achieved that before the film was even shot (john landis even claims this).
    ‘Thriller’ was not the biggest selling album of all time before the release of the ‘Thriller’ video.

    It did become after the release of that video, when it sold even more copies that the ‘Saturday Night Fever’ album & overtook it in 1984.

    … In February 1984, it [‘Thriller’] would overtake the Bee Gees’ Saturday Night Fever and become the biggest selling album of all time…” (Matt Richards & Mark Langthorne, 83 Minutes book)

    Even if John Landis claims the opposite, apparently he is wrong on that because exact sales figures (between these two albums from that period) disprove him, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael's Essence View Post
    'billie jean' has one of the most recognised basslines in pop music. 'wanna be startin' somethin' among other things, is famous for the funny lyrics and chant. that, along with 'human nature', are some of his most performed songs of his career - live I might add! they didn't even have videos. people attended the 'victory' to tour to see those songs (along with the rest of the album).
    A bass line which MJ lifted from ‘I Can't Go For That (No Can Do)', a song already released a year before by the Hall & Oates duo.

    ‘Human Nature’ is a very good song performed on stage by him, but note that he was not involved at all in the song’s making (apart from the vocals).

    MJ was not really the nucleus of those particular things.

    Generally, MJ borrowed a lot of things/ideas from other artists which certainly does not make him the nucleus of many things concerning his art.

    MJ was also helped a lot during his career (including the ‘Thriller’ era) by other very important people.

    There is a reason why Mike Smallcombe emphatically used the verb ‘make’ in his book’s title about MJ (‘Making Michael’).

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    Default Re: If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    I admire your loyalty towards MJ but your post has some inaccuracies.

    For example:



    ‘Thriller’ was not the biggest selling album of all time before the release of the ‘Thriller’ video.

    It did become after the release of that video, when it sold even more copies that the ‘Saturday Night Fever’ album & overtook it in 1984.

    … In February 1984, it [‘Thriller’] would overtake the Bee Gees’ Saturday Night Fever and become the biggest selling album of all time…” (Matt Richards & Mark Langthorne, 83 Minutes book)

    Even if John Landis claims the opposite, apparently he is wrong on that because exact sales figures (between these two albums from that period) disprove him, too.



    A bass line which MJ lifted from ‘I Can't Go For That (No Can Do)', a song already released a year before by the Hall & Oates duo.

    ‘Human Nature’ is a very good song performed on stage by him, but note that he was not involved at all in the song’s making (apart from the vocals).

    MJ was not really the nucleus of those particular things.

    Generally, MJ borrowed a lot of things/ideas from other artists which certainly does not make him the nucleus of many things concerning his art.

    MJ was also helped a lot during his career (including the ‘Thriller’ era) by other very important people.

    There is a reason why Mike Smallcombe emphatically used the verb ‘make’ in his book’s title about MJ (‘Making Michael’).
    'Saturday night fever' was a various artists soundtrack album. the eagles was a greatest hits album. it was unfair for them to be in competition. the book 'Michael!' by mark bego released in 1983, states that 'thriller' the film was planned to be released as a bonus 'thank you' to the fans. the campaign was already hugely successful, and Michael was originally going to work on a 'peter pan' movie with steven speilberg instead. I trust sources that were available when these events took place. I don't trust anything that came out post 2009, where people can re-write history to remove Michael's input from his own work. that includes quincy. that book 'making michael' does not appeal to me for this reason. the title says it all..


    hall & oats even admitted that they didn't hear the bassline of their song on 'billie jean' (I didn't either). you left that part out.. to me, the only song that sounds similar to billie jean, that was released before it, was 'stayin' alive' by the bee-gee's. even then, there are differences in chord progression and storyline.


    no, Michael didn't write 'human nature'. yet if you listen to the first take recordings, he added the 'why-oh-why's' on the bridge - which were crucial, and sampled by the group swv.

    is Michael really expected to be a sound engineer, lighting technician, film director, etc..to be taken seriously? do you really think that quincy, bruce, and john could achieve the same success with the project had Michael been replaced by a random? you know what my answer is.. I defend Michael's earlier work (especially 'thriller') because I see too many people take it for granted, detract from it, and ignore the artistic growth that led him to be great in the first place.

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    Default sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael's Essence View Post
    'Saturday night fever' was a various artists soundtrack album. the eagles was a greatest hits album. it was unfair for them to be in competition.
    Doesn't matter what kind of albums they are. If they sold, they sold. A soundtrack and a greatest hits are still albums. If a remix album or a live album was the biggest selling album in history, then that's all that matters. An album of original material makes no difference as far as sales are concerned.

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