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Thread: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

   
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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)



    Last edited by respect77; 17-07-2017 at 06:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

    Richard Dawkins’s response to his de-platforming in Berkeley


    As I posted this morning
    , radio station KPFA had lined up Richard Dawkins for a public appearance in Berkeley, California, in which Richard was slated to talk about his latest book of essays, Science in the Soul. KPFA then cancelled the talk without informing Richard in advance, saying that they discovered belatedly that Richard’s tweets about Islam constituted “abusive speech.”

    Richard decided to write to the station this morning, but didn’t want his response to appear until KPFA had a chance to answer his email. He waited five hours after sending the letter and, having gotten no response, has given permission to have his email be made public as an “open letter.” Here it is:

    *************
    July 21st 2017



    Dear KPFA


    I used to love your station when I lived in Berkeley for two years, shortly after that beloved place had become the iconic home of free speech. I listened to KPFA almost every day during those years, and I regularly contributed to your fundraising drives, grateful for your objective reporting and humane commentary while I participated in the People’s Park and Vietnam war demonstrations. It was therefore a matter of personal sorrow to me to receive this morning your truly astonishing “justification” for de-platforming me.


    Subject: Notification for Richard Dawkins: Science in the Soul: Selected Writings of a Passionate Rationalist

    Dear Richard Dawkins event ticket buyers,
    We regret to inform you that KPFA has canceled our event with Richard Dawkins. We had booked this event based entirely on his excellent new book on science, when we didn’t know he had offended and hurt – in his tweets and other comments on Islam, so many people. KPFA does not endorse hurtful speech. While KPFA emphatically supports serious free speech, we do not support abusive speech. We apologize for not having had broader knowledge of Dawkins views much earlier. We also apologize to all those inconvenienced by this cancellation. Your ticket purchases will automatically be refunded by Brown Paper Tickets.
    Sincerely,
    KPFA Radio 94.1 FM




    My memory of KPFA is that you were unusually scrupulous about fact-checking. I especially admired your habit of always quoting sources. You conspicuously did not quote a source when accusing me of “abusive speech”. Why didn’t you check your facts – or at least have the common courtesy to alert me – before summarily cancelling my event? If you had consulted me, or if you had done even rudimentary fact-checking, you would have concluded that I have never used abusive speech against Islam. I have called IslamISM “vile” but surely you, of all people, understand that Islamism is not the same as Islam. I have criticised the ridiculous pseudoscientific claims made by Islamic apologists (“the sun sets in a marsh” etc), and the opposition of Islamic “scholars” to evolution and other scientific truths. I have criticised the appalling misogyny and homophobia of Islam, I have criticised the murdering of apostates for no crime other than their disbelief. Far from attacking Muslims, I understand – as perhaps you do not – that Muslims themselves are the prime victims of the oppressive cruelties of Islamism, especially Muslim women.
    I am known as a frequent critic of Christianity and have never been de-platformed for that. Why do you give Islam a free pass? Why is it fine to criticise Christianity but not Islam?

    You say I use “abusive speech” about Islam. I would seriously – I mean it – like to hear what examples of my “abusive speech” you had in mind. When you fail to discover any, I presume you will issue a public apology, which I will of course accept in a spirit of gratitude for what KPFA once was. And could become again.

    Yours sincerely
    Richard Dawkins




    https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2017/07/21/richard-dawkinss-response-to-his-de-platforming-in-berkeley/?fb_action_ids=10155120309391622&fb_action_types=news.publishes



    "Abusive speech" against Islam? You can be "abusive" to a freaking religion? An ideology? WTH?

    They weren't that sensitive because of his "abusive speech" against Christianity or Judaism. It's always Islam that is treated like it is above criticism.

    Needless to say, I agree with Dawkins's stance on the Abrahamic religions and I don't find any criticism of any religion is "abusive speech". I just point out the difference in sensitivity when it comes to the criticism of other religions vs. Islam.


    ORIGINAL CENTER FOR INQUIRY STATEMENT:
    The Center for Inquiry was stunned and deeply dismayed by the cancellation of an event with Prof. Richard Dawkins by the radio station KPFA in Berkeley, California. The station alleged without evidence that the world renowned evolutionary biologist had engaged in “abusive speech,” against Islam, a justification that CFI considers absurd. Prof. Dawkins is a renowned, responsible, and thoughtful critic of all religions, who KPFA had previously hosted in 2015, apparently undisturbed by Prof. Dawkins’ criticism of some of the tenets and ideas of Islam, Christianity, and other faiths.


    “Richard Dawkins is one of the greatest intellects of our time, with a wealth of wisdom and insight that he looked forward to sharing with his Berkeley audience,” said Robyn Blumner, President and CEO of the Center for Inquiry. “For KPFA to suddenly break its commitment to Richard and the hundreds of people who were so looking forward to seeing and hearing him is unconscionable, and the baseless accusation that Richard has engaged in ‘abusive speech’ is a betrayal of the values KPFA has, until now, been known for.”


    Prof. Dawkins—whose landmark book The Selfish Gene was just voted the most influential science book of all time in a poll by the Royal Society—was scheduled to speak on August 9 about his newest book, Science in the Soul: Selected Writings of a Passionate Rationalist, which KPFA itself called “excellent.” In a message to ticket holders, KPFA claimed the event had been booked when “we didn’t know [Dawkins] had offended and hurt - in his tweets and other comments on Islam, so many people.” They added, “While KPFA emphatically supports serious free speech, we do not support abusive speech.”

    “The idea that I have engaged in abusive speech against Islam is preposterous, which even the most rudimentary fact-checking by KPFA would have made clear,” said Prof. Dawkins. “I have indeed strongly condemned the misogyny, homophobia, and violence of Islamism, of which Muslims — particularly Muslim women — are the prime victims. I make no apologies for denouncing those oppressive cruelties, and I will continue to do so.”


    Last year, the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason & Science merged with the Center for Inquiry, and Prof. Dawkins joined the CFI board of directors.


    “In its forty-one-year history, the Center for Inquiry has fought proudly for human and civil rights, and Richard Dawkins is an invaluable ally for our cause.” said Blumner. “We (including Richard Dawkins himself) strongly opposed President Trump’s misguided and discriminatory Muslim ban. We have been at the forefront of the major civil justice causes of our time, and we have devoted ourselves to countering the outmoded, dogmatic prejudices and misinformation aimed at marginalized groups. It is one of the many reasons why we were proud to be the sole secularist organization invited to join the Know Your Neighbor interfaith coalition, launched in 2015 at the White House.”

    “We understand the difference between a people and the beliefs they may hold,” said Blumner, “All of us must be free to debate and criticize Ideas, and harmful ideas must be exposed. It is incredibly disappointing that KPFA does not understand this.”
    http://www.centerforinquiry.net/news...kins_berkeley/
    Last edited by respect77; 22-07-2017 at 04:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

    Why are the so called liberals so afraid to criticize Islam, Islamism, etc? Why do they continue to it a pass? I can't find a reasonable answer other than the ridiculous one of being afraid to be perceived as a racist, islamophobe. It's worrying that campuses are the ones shutting down critics of Islam because people are afraid to hurt Muslims' feelings.

    I'm not a fan of Dave Rubin but Ayaan is spot on, the left has alliance with Islamists and it's depressing Dave had to hide their location for Ayaan's safety.

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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

    I have listened to several interviews with ex-Muslims in these past weeks and Richard Dawkins and how much help his books were in their deconversion was mentioned in several cases. I think it was Ali Rizvi who said that many in the West do not like Dawkins's harsh tone but for the closet atheists who live in oppressive Muslim societies in the Middle East that straightshooting tone is exactly that is a breath of fresh air and that gives them much support.

    In any case, Dawkins has been critical of all religions, especially the Abrahamic ones and especially Christianity, so it is not like he has an exclusive beef with Islam. He is simply being consistent. If you are critical of Christianity you cannot be uncritical of Islam if you don't want to be a hypocrite. Unfortunately this is something that the regressive left doesn't seem to grasp.

    I am sure that some Christians and Jews find this offensive and would deem it "abusive" to Christianity/Judaism:

    “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
    But I am sure the regressive left wouldn't have a problem with inviting him to any of their forums for that. It is always Islam that gets the pedestal treatment. I will never understand some leftists'/liberals' love affair with Islam as it is probably the most illiberal religion there is.

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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

    Everything would be so much easier without religion...


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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

    Delete.

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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

    I listened to this podcast episode with Lalo Dagach interviewed Jennifer Sutton, an American, ex-Mormon, ex-Muslim and now atheist. She talked about growing up in an abusive and broken Mormon household and how that made her an easy prey to convert to Islam. What shocked me to hear is that she felr empowered wearing the hijab and full niqab the last 2 years she was a Muslim. The deal breaker was knowing about Aisha being married to Muhammad at the age of 6 because Muslims lie about her. https://soundcloud.com/lalodagachpod...-and-ex-muslim

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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

    This is the reason why I freaked about Nike making a sports hijab, I don't understand why how women themselves have the nerve to say Islam is feminist, hijab is a choice and gives them empowerment, and discredit Ayaan Hirsi Ali as a true feminist mocking she suffered FGM. It's dowright Stockholm syndrome right there. https://soundcloud.com/lalodagachpod...abia-and-islam

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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow White luvs Peter Pan View Post
    This is the reason why I freaked about Nike making a sports hijab, I don't understand why how women themselves have the nerve to say Islam is feminist, hijab is a choice and gives them empowerment, and discredit Ayaan Hirsi Ali as a true feminist mocking she suffered FGM. It's dowright Stockholm syndrome right there. https://soundcloud.com/lalodagachpod...abia-and-islam
    I think in Western countries some Muslim women can see it as a symbol of their identity which they will wear with pride, also maybe as a symbol of defiance in the face of anti-Muslim bigotry that is rising in the West. In that context it can be felt by some as "empowering" IMO. The problem is that for most Muslim women it is exactly the opposite. In some Muslim countries women do not even have a choice as to whether to wear it or not. Or even in the West if someone grows up in a family that forces it on women. Obviously in that context it is oppressive, not empowering.

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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

    I know we often speak of the causes of terrorism with religious bases and some also bring up politics tied into religion.. But I never notice anyone mention drug trafficking, so I was wondering how many people are familiar with the ties of terrorism to drug trafficking - because there is a deep tie there that I think (while I am not trying to steer it away to ties into religion) doesn't ever get mentioned.

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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

    Some privileged Muslim women in the West could have said they chose to wear it but the likes of Linda Sarsour don't speak for the vast majority of them in the Muslim world even if she claims to do so. I find gross and outrageous the hijab's fetishism, even more if ot comes from Western women and men who have no affiliation to Islam. They’re celebrating a symbol of that religion and for many women and girls an imposition of such religion.

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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

    ^ Many Muslim women wear it because it is tied into the culture just as much if not more than religious.. There are american born Muslims everywhere that wear a hijab.. And I'll say while it does not get spoken about and is not as extreme many Muslim men cover themselves up.. The traditional covering of a man shows only there head and feet and a large reason why men grow beards is to cover the face.

    While it's not as 'severe', it is still conceptualized from the same root.. Today even in many (not all) many woman wear less covering if at all. BUT since it is such a cultural thing women will be found wearing them for years to come. many by choice, some by force.. Which the forced is what needs to end.

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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

    Quote Originally Posted by KOPV View Post
    ^ Many Muslim women wear it because it is tied into the culture just as much if not more than religious.. There are american born Muslims everywhere that wear a hijab.. And I'll say while it does not get spoken about and is not as extreme many Muslim men cover themselves up.. The traditional covering of a man shows only there head and feet and a large reason why men grow beards is to cover the face.
    It is very obvious though that man are considered socially higher than women and as the ones who rule women, so it is not the same in terms of power dynamics.

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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

    ^ You are right about that, I was specifically speaking about the hijab used even outside of the fact.. Many Muslim women find them fashionable and beautiful. Go all out matching them with dresses, shoes or whatever.. when young girls grow up and see models on TV wearing it - it changes the scope of how they think of it as well.. You go to Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, and others right now and you will see a small percentage wearing old styling of covering (usually older) than you have adult women wearing hijabs in a fashionable way (which would be the largest percentage of woman) than you have woman that don't wear one at all.

    This is more so the standard in Islamic countries than the extremes that we hear about (which does exist) but does not speak about a majority anymore.

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    Default Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow White luvs Peter Pan View Post
    Some privileged Muslim women in the West could have said they chose to wear it but the likes of Linda Sarsour don't speak for the vast majority of them in the Muslim world even if she claims to do so. I find gross and outrageous the hijab's fetishism, even more if ot comes from Western women and men who have no affiliation to Islam. They’re celebrating a symbol of that religion and for many women and girls an imposition of such religion.
    I agree completely. Some even have the nerve to say Islam is a feminist religion. WTH?

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