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Not every unreleased song needs to be updated

analogue

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I've noticed lately is that whenever a new MJ is leaked someone will always say ''This song needs to be updated'' and sometimes I agree and other times I don't agree. For all we know Michael could have left some really timeless gems in the vault that don't need any updating. Take Do You Know Where Your Children Are as an example. Does that need to be updated? No it doesn't because it has a timeless sound to it. I also wish that people would focus on how good a song is instead of focusing on how ''current'' it will sound, and I know that lots of people will say ''It needs to be updated and sound more current to get to number 1'' and I see that logic but am I the only one who thinks that a good song is more important than getting a number 1 hit in the charts? If we can get both then that's great but if it's one or the other then I'll take a good song over a number 1 hit every time
 
Thing is with "updating" that it will also sound outdated in a couple of years. So from an artistic POV the original demos are always of bigger value because they represent the artist's intention. I'm not against updating for commercial reasons, but I hope to get the originals as well.

I know what you mean, there seems to be an obsession these days with whether a song sounds dated or not and for many its a measure of the vaulue of a song. If it sounds modern it's cool, if it doesn't it sucks. I really don't understand that logic. Probably also because I'm not really a big fan of the current sound anyway. So to me sounding modern does not equal good or great.
 
analogue said:
I've noticed lately is that whenever a new MJ is leaked someone will always say ''This song needs to be updated'' and sometimes I agree and other times I don't agree. For all we know Michael could have left some really timeless gems in the vault that don't need any updating. Take Do You Know Where Your Children Are as an example. Does that need to be updated? No it doesn't because it has a timeless sound to it. I also wish that people would focus on how good a song is instead of focusing on how ''current'' it will sound, and I know that lots of people will say ''It needs to be updated and sound more current to get to number 1'' and I see that logic but am I the only one who thinks that a good song is more important than getting a number 1 hit in the charts? If we can get both then that's great but if it's one or the other then I'll take a good song over a number 1 hit every time
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Leaked version of DYKWYCA is updated in 2010. That's not the original version.
 
analogue said:
2010? That so dated now! That song needs an update to sound like it came out in 2014!
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I'm not saying that. I love the leaked version. It's the best unreleased MJ song to me. But I'm saying you don't know how the original version from 1990 sound. Maybe the song really needed to be updated and whoever did this 2010 mix he did a wonderful job. For example Steve Lukather recorded that guitar solo in 2010.
 
analogue said:
I've noticed lately is that whenever a new MJ is leaked someone will always say ''This song needs to be updated'' and sometimes I agree and other times I don't agree. For all we know Michael could have left some really timeless gems in the vault that don't need any updating. Take Do You Know Where Your Children Are as an example. Does that need to be updated? No it doesn't because it has a timeless sound to it. I also wish that people would focus on how good a song is instead of focusing on how ''current'' it will sound, and I know that lots of people will say ''It needs to be updated and sound more current to get to number 1'' and I see that logic but am I the only one who thinks that a good song is more important than getting a number 1 hit in the charts? If we can get both then that's great but if it's one or the other then I'll take a good song over a number 1 hit every time
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Exactly!
i totally agree with you.
I think album Invicible was ahead its time.
Do you need update Thriller or Billie Jean ? no,thats because theres no need for that.
 
Condor9333 said:
Exactly!
i totally agree with you.
I think album Invicible was ahead its time.
Do you need update Thriller or Billie Jean ? no,thats because theres no need for that.
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You can not comapare fully finished, mastered and released songs with unfinished or demo material. Imagine Billie Jean was never released and the only thing they have is Billie Jean Demo. Would you release it as it is or would you try to finish it?
 
OnirMJ said:
I'm not saying that. I love the leaked version. It's the best unreleased MJ song to me. But I'm saying you don't know how the original version from 1990 sound. Maybe the song really needed to be updated and whoever did this 2010 mix he did a wonderful job. For example Steve Lukather recorded that guitar solo in 2010.
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I was being sarcastic
 
Taking as an example the Thriller 25 remixes, most of the time trying to fit current trends is a huge mistake because it loses the original essence the artist conceived. Look at what Teddy Riley did with HT, it made the song fuller but compared to the demo, it doesn't sound like a Michael song.
 
Snow White luvs Peter Pan said:
Taking as an example the Thriller 25 remixes, most of the time trying to fit current trends is a huge mistake because it loses the original essence the artist conceived. Look at what Teddy Riley did with HT, it made the song fuller but compared to the demo, it doesn't sound like a Michael song.
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I think we are not talking about remixes here, but updating/finishing unfinished song. Thriller 25 remixes (except Akon's WBSS) all sucked. HT album version would be great in my opinion without Taryll Jackson and Teddy's bridge and with "She's only 15 line". I hate he changed the meaning of the song, but I like the music and the production.. not just Teddy but also Neff-U. Funky guitar was added by Neff-U and it fits perfectly!
 
analogue said:
I've noticed lately is that whenever a new MJ is leaked someone will always say ''This song needs to be updated'' and sometimes I agree and other times I don't agree. For all we know Michael could have left some really timeless gems in the vault that don't need any updating. Take Do You Know Where Your Children Are as an example. Does that need to be updated? No it doesn't because it has a timeless sound to it. I also wish that people would focus on how good a song is instead of focusing on how ''current'' it will sound, and I know that lots of people will say ''It needs to be updated and sound more current to get to number 1'' and I see that logic but am I the only one who thinks that a good song is more important than getting a number 1 hit in the charts? If we can get both then that's great but if it's one or the other then I'll take a good song over a number 1 hit every time
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If it wasn't released in Michael's time, then it wasn't finished. Did MJ himself ever released songs that weren't finished?

It is not necessary that we want no 1 hit, but we have to think that those songs represent Michael out there, and if the estate releases an unfinished song that has no tail or head, what do you think the media say? They'll be like hawks all over those songs and will be wondering who actually did Michael's other successful albums if that is what he was doing. Do you understand what I mean, its hard to explain :(

Then there is an issue of you take a good song over no 1 hit. Who gets to decide what is a good songs because we all have different music taste? I cannot repeat often enough, there was Bad 25 album with unreleased unfinished songs, and were the fan base happy about them? There were more complaining than praise.

respect77 said:
I know what you mean, there seems to be an obsession these days with whether a song sounds dated or not and for many its a measure of the vaulue of a song. If it sounds modern it's cool, if it doesn't it sucks. I really don't understand that logic. Probably also because I'm not really a big fan of the current sound anyway. So to me sounding modern does not equal good or great.
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I don't think it is obsession nor updating as such.
Queen has been working on album and more than likely there is some updating done on the unfinished songs, so why shouldn't Michael's songs be finished the way that they are up todays standards? Can they even finish old songs todays tools to sound like 20 years ago?
I would like to know what Queen fans thinks of Brian and Robert updating bands old unreleased songs and are their fans as angry as MJ fans:)

Condor9333 said:
Exactly!
i totally agree with you.
I think album Invicible was ahead its time.
Do you need update Thriller or Billie Jean ? no,thats because theres no need for that.
Click to expand...

No, you don't update Thriller or Billie Jean because MJ finished them, but all the same, he also re-released them with current and updated version (Thriller 25). See, even MJ was up for updating his stuff:)
It is a different thing whether you like it or not, but MJ did it, and now his estate is doing it on his behalf.
 
Bubs said:
Then there is an issue of you take a good song over no 1 hit. Who gets to decide what is a good songs because we all have different music taste? I cannot repeat often enough, there was Bad 25 album with unreleased unfinished songs, and were the fan base happy about them? There were more complaining than praise.
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I think fans were complaining about VHS being released in 2012, not about unreleased material. Actually majority of fans praised unreleased material.
 
I feel that IF updates create a sound that would bring commercial success than I don't care how they change it as long as they are able to make it HIT quality...

However: I want to the opportunity to hear the originals the way MJ left it, for me... If it's only me and the fan community hearing than I'd say just release all demos the way the are and we will love it.. Just make audio clearer if need be!! But the fact is, the general public will hear this and I really do want the album to have commercial success.. I really would love to hear people talk about Mj's talent and say he always had IT and there's new music to show that..

In fact I secretly would love any song that would be a smash for the public to believe it was written in his later years in life even if it really wasn't.. lol! just for PR and reputation reasons..

I would lie if I said I wouldn't care to hear.. "This is the music Michael Jackson was working on that he wanted to reveal to the world before he passed" and it to be freaking GREAT!!
 
OnirMJ said:
I think fans were complaining about VHS being released in 2012, not about unreleased material. Actually majority of fans praised unreleased material.
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I'm not talking about concert footage, but songs. The sales tells the different story of how fans loved them, or maybe they didn't buy them because they found leaked song in the internet thus didn't buy. That should tell you that no more leaked songs, or it is jail time:)
Anyways fans campaigned to get that exact concert out and when the estate did so and warned it is not great quality, all they got was more abuse and cursing how they purposely release bad stuff for ever complaining fans.
 
analogue said:
Take Do You Know Where Your Children Are as an example. Does that need to be updated? No it doesn't because it has a timeless sound to it.
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This proves a point: the Estate can truly make updates sound phenomenal if they spend enough time on them.

The version of DYKWYCA that leaked isn't the original mix - it's a reworked version by John McClain. The guitar layers, particularly the solo, were recorded by Steve Lukather in September 2010. And fans absolutely love this song.
 
I'm happy with polishing up the sound but I have a problem with songs that sound like someone else's creation. if you're going to polish it, do just that, and do it how michael would have done. no new artistic spins, no autotune. just clean it up.
 
AlwaysThere said:
This proves a point: the Estate can truly make updates sound phenomenal if they spend enough time on them.

The version of DYKWYCA that leaked isn't the original mix - it's a reworked version by John McClain. The guitar layers, particularly the solo, were recorded by Steve Lukather in September 2010. And fans absolutely love this song .
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Probably because most don't know it's been re-worked. LOL
 
^^True true. In The Back and Fall Again are both unfinished songs that MJ released.
 
Prince Of Pop said:
^^True true. In The Back and Fall Again are both unfinished songs that MJ released.
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Also Beautiful girl seems to be unfinished. - even though Scared of the Moon sounds amazing it somehow seems unginished too. - like the watw demo.

MJ released many unfinished songs.
 
^ well we have to consider he released tgose demos to fulfill Sony's contract of unreleased material... at the time he wanted away from sony And just wanted out
 
Michael HATED releasing material that was incomplete. The most he would ever agree to were demo versions of already released songs (Working Day and Night, Don't Stop, Billie Jean, The Girl is Mine).

Prior to the release of Invincible, Michael made a deal with Sony that they would let him out of his contract if he provided the album, as well as a greatest hits CD with at least one new song (Number Ones) and a box set (The Ultimate Collection).

TUC entered production sometime after the November 2003 raid on Neverland. Michael initially planned to release two or three brand new songs in addition to material he felt was more complete (Cheater, Scared of the Moon), though the raid left him disgusted and broken.

He pretty much grabbed about a dozen songs from the vault and threw them at Sony just to get one stressful event over with.

He did greatly regret that within a few years, when he went back to complete some of the songs.
 
Honestly, I'm pretty in favour of updating his songs, just so long as it sounds good and is not too far from the original. Michael likely left a multitude of notes (both on paper and via audio recording) so I think the Estate and the producers should have a decent idea of what Michael envisioned.

Many of the songs so far that are the leaked 2010 versions are my favourite of his leaked songs. There's the odd exception (*cough* Another Day *cough cough*) but overall I'm happy.

I would love to see MJ get another #1 to be honest, just one last time. Being the guy who always aimed to go beyond the best, I know he would too.
 
HIStoric said:
Honestly, I'm pretty in favour of updating his songs, just so long as it sounds good and is not too far from the original. Michael likely left a multitude of notes (both on paper and via audio recording) so I think the Estate and the producers should have a decent idea of what Michael envisioned.

Many of the songs so far that are the leaked 2010 versions are my favourite of his leaked songs. There's the odd exception (*cough* Another Day *cough cough*) but overall I'm happy.

I would love to see MJ get another #1 to be honest, just one last time. Being the guy who always aimed to go beyond the best, I know he would too.
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I agree with bolded part.

What do you mean Another day being odd exception? I looooveeeee that song and it should be given another chance and re-released :yes:
 
Bubs said:
I agree with bolded part.

What do you mean Another day being odd exception? I looooveeeee that song and it should be given another chance and re-released :yes:
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There's this one demo of Another Day which I absolutely adore (I think there's a few out there, so I'm not sure what one it is). When I heard the 'Michael' version, I remember for the first time I was really overwhelmed by the intro as it sounded AMAZING (I remember having my mouth open even) but it was pretty much downhill from there, in my personal opinion anyway. I dunno, the rest of the song just felt underwhelming.
 
Bubs said:
I don't think it is obsession nor updating as such.
Queen has been working on album and more than likely there is some updating done on the unfinished songs, so why shouldn't Michael's songs be finished the way that they are up todays standards? Can they even finish old songs todays tools to sound like 20 years ago?
I would like to know what Queen fans thinks of Brian and Robert updating bands old unreleased songs and are their fans as angry as MJ fans:)
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I'm talking generally about this belief that current=superior. It is not. Obiously you have to finish unfinished tracks if you want to reach more than hard core fans, but I think the sound they aim for should rather be timeless than current.

When it comes to posthumus releases there seems to be two approaches. You mention Queen and Freddie Mercury and indeed they did update Freddie's songs to whatever the current sound was at the time of the release. Like Living On My Own and You Don't Fool Me have that eurodance sound that was hip in Europe in the 90s. On the other hand you had the Beatles releasing demos like Free As a Bird and while they were finished they were not really updated to the sound of what was current at the time.

Like I said I'n not against updating, I understand the commercial aspects of that, but as someone who is interested in Michael (more than Timbaland etc.) I'd also love to have the originals.
 
Bubs said:
No, you don't update Thriller or Billie Jean because MJ finished them, but all the same, he also re-released them with current and updated version (Thriller 25). See, even MJ was up for updating his stuff:)
It is a different thing whether you like it or not, but MJ did it, and now his estate is doing it on his behalf.
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Michael actually said in an interview he did not like remixes. (He said this about the remixes on BOTDF, but it was before Thriller 25.) He said he only agreed to them because Sony insisted on them.

B&W: What do you think of the remixes they did of your songs?
M: The least I can say is that I don't like them...I don't like it that they come in and change my songs completely. But Sony says that the kids love remixes...
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http://maljas.republika.pl/wywiady/bw.html
 
All I think is that no song needs to be updated. If Michael left the way he left them there'll be a reason, and I don't see why they should modify them. If they really really want to publish something, they should publish the finished songs, if they're just demos they leave them in the vault or wherever they are.
 
respect77 said:
Michael actually said in an interview he did not like remixes. (He said this about the remixes on BOTDF, but it was before Thriller 25.) He said he only agreed to them because Sony insisted on them.



http://maljas.republika.pl/wywiady/bw.html
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I see many using that quote as backup, but when you re-read it again, he says he doesn't like remixes because "they come and change my songs completely". We have no idea what he thought of remixes that didn't change much of his music?
 
i completely agree with this thread.. the 2008 demo mix of hollywood tonight is so much better than the album version, imagine if Michael had heard it and worked on that during the London shows and where it could have gone.. WOW, it's okay for song's to be updated.. but not taking it too far, and if it's taken too far.. i would hope they include demo's for the song's from now on.. fans will always prefer Michael's final touches.
 
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