"Objective" fans in action, again

I am not sure if this allowable, but I thought that the subject is wider than just discussing Lee Thomas' book and interviews, so I brought it here.

denisrs said:

There are people whose body does not respond neither to "cure" (that allows many to almost return their natural colour of skin), nor (or) to "bleaching".

Still some (even fans!) say that Jackson necessarily "bleached" his skin 8| :blink: They even say that simultaneously stating that "bleaching" is permanent and irreversible (though statistic denies it) while it is easily seen on some of Jackon's photos that he has spots.

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hopespringseternal said:

wannabestartinsomthin21, thanks for the update. What I really appreciate about this site is the mature discussion of this and the sympathetic nature fans here take in regard to this delicate issue that Mike has battled with. MJJC much like MJJF has continued to be the best, most informative and truly respectful site of Michael. Continue the great work :flowers: because there are other so called "fan" sites that not only mocked Mike and called him a liar but they called Lee Thomas one as well, just plain said

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Ah, those "objective" fans You mean?

For those fans, being "objective" means accepting never confirmed but seemed to them plausible negative speculations as facts, and making judgments on that. Everyone who does not follow that rule of prejudice is pronounced "blind", "fanatical", and so on.

This is what Jackson referred to with his "prejudice is ignorance" phrase and his abhorrence of judgmentality.

Such fans do not respect core essence of Michael's life philosophy and behave in this sense exactly as masses of people who hurt him during all the ordeals.

With this, those fans are not fans of "Michael Jackson and his art", but rather fans of entertainer's art (part of it, rather). And this is not outburst of emotional judgmentality from my part, but just logical conclusion which is based on taking into account all available premises.

But newcomer fans should be able to see the difference between those types of fandom, as well as that judgmentality has nothing to do with objectivity.

The sad thing is that some MJ fans like it (or are used to see) when MJ is down or in pain. So whenever something positive comes up they have to put a negative slant on it. I don't know if its a twisted sense of self-importance they have you know like they need to feel that MJ needs 'saving'. Its kinda like when LMP said that she married MJ to 'save' him. Some fans have this type-of-love with MJ. So they need a role to play in his life. They need to be acknowledge somehow, because they think that they are in charge. So when things are going smoothly or they don't know what's up, they panic because their sense of control is in jeopardy. imo

By the way I am not talking about regular fans here who sometimes agree/disagree etc. I am talking about those extreme nutters.

Forever_Mike said:

The sad thing is that some MJ fans like it (or are used to see) when MJ is down or in pain. So whenever something positive comes up they have to put a negative slant on it. I don't know if its a twisted sense of self-importance they have you know like they need to feel that MJ needs 'saving'. Its kinda like when LMP said that she married MJ to 'save' him. Some fans have this type-of-love with MJ. So they need a role to play in his life. They need to be acknowledge somehow, because they think that they are in charge. So when things are going smoothly or they don't know what's up, they panic because their sense of control is in jeopardy. imo

By the way I am not talking about regular fans here who sometimes agree/disagree etc. I am talking about those extreme nutters.

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Crazy fans make the situation bigger than what it is.

And for the record if they don't believe Michael has vitiligo then either they are brainwashed or are too blind to see the truth of things.

Forever_Mike said:

The sad thing is that some MJ fans like it (or are used to see) when MJ is down or in pain. So whenever something positive comes up they have to put a negative slant on it. I don't know if its a twisted sense of self-importance they have you know like they need to feel that MJ needs 'saving'. Its kinda like when LMP said that she married MJ to 'save' him. Some fans have this type-of-love with MJ. So they need a role to play in his life. They need to be acknowledge somehow, because they think that they are in charge. So when things are going smoothly or they don't know what's up, they panic because their sense of control is in jeopardy. imo

By the way I am not talking about regular fans here who sometimes agree/disagree etc. I am talking about those extreme nutters.

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I know. That's crazy. At some point when I was a teenager I was going to that direction in my fanhood but then my eyes were opened, I joined MJJF.

troubleman84 said:

Crazy fans make the situation bigger than what it is.

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Tell me about it!

troubleman84 said:

And for the record if they don't believe Michael has vitiligo then either they are brainwashed or are too blind to see the truth of things.

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Yup! Or they think that they KNOW the real Truth and everyone else is blind!

raingirl said:

I know. That's crazy. At some point when I was a teenager I was going to that direction in my fanhood but then my eyes were opened, I joined MJJF.

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This fan-club is one of the best (imo).:yes:

Tim: those fans do not already deny that Jackson has vitiligo; they rather "objectively" say that he was lying to Oprah and other times that he did not use "bleaching".

Those fans are not interested in facts with this, such as:
1) there are lots of photos of Michael both long before and long after interview to Oprah where he has spots on skin;
2) Karen Faye (former long time Jackson's make-up artist) directly said they used much make up for many years until 1991 when they mostly refused of it, revealing pale colour of Michael's skin

(note to moderators: those items are only to denounce some fans' insinuations, not to discuss Michael's health)

Simultaneously, some fans insist that there was sense for Jackson to use "bleaching" since it offers "permanent and irreversible" results -- what is outright false, according to statistics and researches. Also, this "bleaching" is prohibited in many countries of the world since it is cancerogen. With all of this, why would Michael want such "bleaching" in the first place, initially?

Well, somehow this is not matter of interest for those fans. They more excited rather with possibility to pronounce Jackson "liar" out of the blue, and differentiate such way from other "blind" and "fanatical" fans.

My take is that those with twisted intentions who want to further their opinions and give credibility to their arguments call themselves 'Fans'..there is no way to verify the original unadultered 'fan' from the vested interest 'fan'. I have heard and read a numerous time people making idiotic conclusions yet claiming they are fans so that they appear to be 'objective'. If you are a fan and still stamp the rumours and innuendos then the ordinary joe is more likely to believe it -- what a great formula for a salacious story.

I think the true fan loves Michael unconditionally, and respect him for the wonderful talented, charitable person that he is and does not expect him to be the perfect human being.

Of course he has made mistakes, some real corkers lets face it, and sometimes it is difficult being a fan when you hear people being critical and feel the need to try and defend what really is not easy to defend, the infamous balcony thing for example, but we all make mistakes and I for one am glad mine have'nt found their way into the tabloids and been the subject of analysis by people who have never met me.

I believe he has extensive vitillago and find it incredibly cruel that people make fun of such a disfiguring condition, but even if he hadn't and had done the skin bleaching as the more ignorant believe, in my view it is his body to do with what he wants and I don't have the right to judge him or anyone else.

Nothing can take away the fact that he has given so much pleasure and so much money to so many people and made a positive difference to their lives, how many of us can say that we have done as much for other people.

This is a place to discuss and I understand people's frustration when threads are closed but sadly we are not free from prying eyes so the 'fans' who critisise in a disrespectful way need to maybe choose their words more carefully to avoid the sleazy tabloid haters from putting it out there that his own fans are turning against him. We are a strong voice that has been recognised and it does help him.

^^ Speaking of prying eyes, I just realized that the roger fellow gets his info mostly from negative discussions on MJ sites.

Forever_Mike said:

^^ Speaking of prying eyes, I just realized that the roger fellow gets his info mostly from negative discussions on MJ sites.

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:yes: :yes: It's a mixture of that with ex employees with an axe to grind who are either suing Michael or just make up trash to keep that fat guy writing utter BS.

More to the point fans giving that hater information to make themselves feel important.

Those fans who cannot accept the medical condition called vitiligo, actually I don't call them fans at all, period. Haters playing as far as I am concerned or people who have issues about their own race or those of other races who are projecting those on to Michael. It's quite pathetic really.

As Michael comes back in 2008 I find myself less and less enthused about Michael Jackson fans. I have come to realise most are really superficial, ignorant and prejudiced. Which for me being a Michael Jackson fan is the complete opposite. It disgusts me. They have learnt nothing from his life or what he teaches us through himself or how the media and others treat him.

I tend to come to the boards for the news and pictures now on Michael. I avoid reading threads. One or two maybe if it is of interest and there is some good discussion. But mostly it is the same crap.

Irish Flower said:

More to the point fans giving that hater information to make themselves feel important.

Those fans who cannot accept the medical condition called vitiligo, actually I don't call them fans at all, period. Haters playing as far as I am concerned or people who have issues about their own race or those of other races who are projecting those on to Michael. It's quite pathetic really.

As Michael comes back in 2008 I find myself less and less enthused about Michael Jackson fans. I have come to realise most are really superficial, ignorant and prejudiced. Which for me being a Michael Jackson fan is the complete opposite. It disgusts me. They have learnt nothing from his life or what he teaches us through himself or how the media and others treat him.

I tend to come to the boards for the news and pictures now on Michael. I avoid reading threads. One or two maybe if it is of interest and there is some good discussion. But mostly it is the same crap.

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:clap: :clap: excellent post, and totally agree :flowers:

I actually just saw the 20/20 interview that Lee Thomas did yesterday. Even the interviewer wanted to side step and not accept that Michael had the disease well he had plastic surgery he wanted to become white kind of attitude. The fact is people that includes media and fans don't want to admit that they were wrong even when all the facts are staring them in the face. People use Michael for their own agendas. Whether it be racism, greed or fame. I applaud Lee Thomas going public with the disease it not only helps others but it will highlight the fact that Michael DOES have the disease even more.

But the haters, the ignornant, and those who don't want to admit that they were wrong or ignorant will still not accept. But to hell with them. They are the people I feel sorry for more because they don't have the strength or wisdom that Michael Jackson or Lee Thomas has. I pity those people.

Irish Flower said:

I actually just saw the 20/20 interview that Lee Thomas did yesterday. Even the interviewer wanted to side step and not accept that Michael had the disease well he had plastic surgery he wanted to become white kind of attitude. The fact is people that includes media and fans don't want to admit that they were wrong even when all the facts are staring them in the face. People use Michael for their own agendas. Whether it be racism, greed or fame. I applaud Lee Thomas going public with the disease it not only helps others but it will highlight the fact that Michael DOES have the disease even more.

But the haters, the ignornant, and those who don't want to admit that they were wrong or ignorant will still not accept. But to hell with them. They are the people I feel sorry for more because they don't have the strength or wisdom that Michael Jackson or Lee Thomas has. I pity those people.

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I loved how Lee told that woman that even though he couldn't speak on Mike's plastic surgery the vitiligo they both share is REAL, notice that chick was shut up once Lee said that because she'd looked like an idiot to argue with him, Lee stressed that he clearly understood why Mike wore gloves because he'd worn them and that he understood what Michael had experienced with the pain when it came to vitiligo, so even though you have intereviewers like that idiot chick who don't want to acknowledge the truth, Lee is smart enough to sidestep their snide attacks and still keep the focus on the fact that both he and Mike have a painful disease that takes a physical and emotional toll on you and I applaud him for being so open when he doesn't have to.

I'm probably missing something here, but I've never seen any fan deny that MJ has vitiligo. One would have to blind to deny it.

Thats complex matter what some fans deny and in which part; as I pointed above, fans mostly do not deny Jackson's vitiligo, but they still manage to accuse him of lying on matters, where facts do not confirm that.

troubleman84 said:

And for the record if they don't believe Michael has vitiligo then either they are brainwashed or are too blind to see the truth of things.

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AMEN and AMEN

your logic is faulty denis. you cannot be objective about someone you DO NOT know and someone who's only let u know what they want u to know. it's human nature to judge so that's not hte issue.

the issue is whether those can realize when they're being judgemental and when they're being objective.

soso def : what exactly do You mean? Some fans call themselves "objective" and by that they understand that they can take whatever negative speculation and call Jackson "liar" under that. What it has to do with my logic being faulty, as You say?

To take it simply, being "objective" means that if speculation does not have confirmation, then one can not base any conclusion on it. Being "prejudiced and judgmental" means opposite.

Could You please explain in more detail where is fault with this?

ppl or even fans who dont see the fact that michael has vitiligo are stupid f**** who deserve nothing but to be ignored. like michael said "ppl are crazy" !!!!

denisrs said:

I am not sure if this allowable, but I thought that the subject is wider than just discussing Lee Thomas' book and interviews, so I brought it here.





Ah, those "objective" fans You mean?

For those fans, being "objective" means accepting never confirmed but seemed to them plausible negative speculations as facts, and making judgments on that. Everyone who does not follow that rule of prejudice is pronounced "blind", "fanatical", and so on.

This is what Jackson referred to with his "prejudice is ignorance" phrase and his abhorrence of judgmentality.

Such fans do not respect core essence of Michael's life philosophy and behave in this sense exactly as masses of people who hurt him during all the ordeals.

With this, those fans are not fans of "Michael Jackson and his art", but rather fans of entertainer's art (part of it, rather). And this is not outburst of emotional judgmentality from my part, but just logical conclusion which is based on taking into account all available premises.

But newcomer fans should be able to see the difference between those types of fandom, as well as that judgmentality has nothing to do with objectivity.

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and how are those fans objective when they base their judgement on the unseen? they weren't in MJ's private room, when he was going thru this...ironically, they have developed a religion, because they have 'faith' in what they say, and in the invisible, cus they sure as hell don't have evidence, based on any process seen by their own eyes.

vncwilliam said:

and how are those fans objective when they base their judgement on the unseen?

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Initially they probably go from being opposite to actually fanatical fans who are in total deny of any imperfection Michael even himself acknowledged (he even said several times himself something in line with "I am only human" in his books and poems).

However, further this point goes to fundamentalism where seeing Jackson's imperfections goes to accepting never confirmed negative speculations and making bold conclusions on that. And this goes aggressive way, with, as I pointed above, labeling more accurate toward facts and conclusions fans "blind".

With that, fans with such prejudice that negative speculation must be true, are fans of only Michael's art, part of it, but not fans of phenomenon overall, as most other fans are -- like here, at MJJC.

my point is simply that one does not have to identify or even acknowledge mj's philosophy nor do they even need to know they exist b/c it's a simple case of do as a say, not as i do. one can say they're a certain way but unless u know them and can observe, then taking what they say and preach into consideration means nothing.

I did not ever say anyone has to accept or know Jackson's philosophy, right?

However, newcomer fans have to know of those two types of fandom -- one where people are fans of artist's works only, and the other type where people are fans of phenomenon as whole (means they accept artist's personality, principles, philosophy).

Regardless of that, being prejudiced against person because of speculation (the more so which is often directly counters to basic facts) is not ethical.

One can be whatever much prejudiced and judgmental; however, this does not give right to insinuate about other person yet.

Here is where freedom of speech limited; no insults are allowed. And calling anyone "liar" with only taking speculation as fact is unethical and insult; there is no other variant.

Well this is certainly an interesting thread.

I have alot to say on the matter, however it seems to have been summed up by many on the board already, and I agree with most of you.

Personally (and by personally I mean: IMO) (let's just get the whole "in my own opinion" gremlin out of the way, because we all know how people can take other people's OPINIONS as Facts **cough**) I feel that Michael put it in the best words when he said "it's just ignorance."

There it is! Plain and simple! And IMO, it couldn't be said any better than that.

So I'm going to end this before it becomes one of those ridiculously LONG essay-type posts....lol

these so-called fans are just haters in disguise.
or maybe just fans of his music. they love his music but hate the person.
as simple as that.

JudgingNoone said:

I'm probably missing something here, but I've never seen any fan deny that MJ has vitiligo. One would have to blind to deny it.

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Thank you. Right on as usual.

No one did deny it. There was a thread in which it was asked if anyone knew anything about an interview in which Michael said he treated the remaining patches of dark on his skin to make it evenly white. I was told in person by an MJ fan that he heard Michael say this on the radio and yet I don't think I have ever heard a fan say this on a board. That could be because for a long time on MJJF no discussion of it was allowed at all. The other thing asked was if anyone was familiar with what Michael's mom said (and this I have seen on a board):

“His face is white because he has had this disease, and instead of having it spotted like a cow or something like that he just decided to just do the whole thing, because he could afford to do it.”

It was what, in the past, doctors would recommend if someones skin had already turned over 50% depigmented.

Michael's comments about not bleaching his skin were made earlier in the course of his disease. Also I (aside from that bleaching isn't the correct term for it) would say even if he said it today that he didn't bleach his skin I would take that to mean that the original lightening of his skin was not due to some deliberate action on his part to make his skin lighter.

People take and twist words. That is for sure.

Who cares anyways? I don't understand why any fan would so staunchly insist that Michael never had anything done. He may or may not have but it may well have been a recommended option if he needed to blend his skin for appearance sake. He would have to choose between several bad options for the one that was the 'least bad.' The choice would be between him and his doctor. Whatever he did it was what would have seemed the best choice for the hand he was dealt. If he didn't ever comment on it then don't know anything for sure. No fan (here anyway) has said he doesn't have vitiligo and no fan has accused him of lying. For me, the interest was the opposite, that he may have stated he received treatment and some fans still insist he didn't...ever. If he really said it then fans who insist he didn't receive treatment to blend his skin are the ones calling him a liar (and his mom a liar as well.)

Done.

That is the only further comment I intend to make since I am really much more interested in speculating on such as

A TOUR!

A NEW ALBUM!

and

ARE THOSE NEW VOCALS on the new songs on THRILLER 25 ???????????

:wild:

*goes back to Thriller forum*

EC: if we can follow Michael's way of habit of discussing such subjects, then we can understand that his mother guesses.

Because according to Thomas Mesereau, Jackson's back is with spots (he saw it directly), and we saw many photos, including from latest years, including after trial, where spots can be seen.

But "objective" fans come to conclusion with this that Michael is liar.

troubleman84 said:

Crazy fans make the situation bigger than what it is.

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that is the most true statement i heard i a long time