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Berry Gordy and MJ, does he regret it?

Datsymay

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I have often wonder if Berry Gordy regretted the way he treated MJ towards the end of their stay their. As we know Berry was not prepared to sign a new contract with the Jacksons. As far as he was concerned, they had served their purpose and he couldn't do anymore for them, but he missed the opportunity of grooming MJ for a solo career. We know that he wanted Jermaine to be the next Marvin Gaye. This must have made MJ feel very disappointed in him and may even have rocked MJ's confidence some how.
Jermaine, could have and should have been the next Marvin Gaye, but why did Berry missed the boat with Michael. Why did he not see a potential winner there and stick with him?^_^
 
Well a lot of Motown artists never got a chance to do what they wanna do because Berry wanted a hit and he felt that if one of his artists was trying to write and produce themselves, he'd either ignore 'em (like he did most of the '60s Motown artists) or fight with them (Marvin). Berry only regretted decisions he made when the other artist got successful after leaving Motown. MJ did the same thing his Motown colleagues did when they got restless: he rebelled.
 
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IT was more the Jacksons wanting to leave Motown than motown..

The main reason why Jermaine stayed with Motown is because he was married to Berry Gordy's daughter.

The time the Jacksons went to CBS, Motown in general was having a really hard time. sales were going down, less publicity, and several other record labels were gaining steam.. For the Jacksons this ment a lot of performing the same old songs, little gigs, and not enough backing for new ventures and material..

In the mean time CBS offers them a deal that they can write some of there own songs, get many music rights that Motown was not offering.. It was a great deal and they took it.

I think Michael has no hard feelings about Berry Gordy, he's often throughout the years has shared his love for Berry Gordy.. Talked about him in ONLY positive light without any hint of anger or resentment..
 
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I don't doubt that MJ gives kudos to Berry and he should because Berry helped send him and his family to the top of the world but I think during his stay in Motown there was tension developing between Berry and artists, I don't think Berry and most of the Jacksons were any different.
 
KOPV said:
IT was more the Jacksons wanting to leave Motown than motown..

The main reason why Jermaine stayed with Motown is because he was married to Berry Gordy's daughter.

The time the Jacksons went to CBS, Motown in general was having a really hard time. sales were going down, less publicity, and several other record labels were gaining steam.. For the Jacksons this ment a lot of performing the same old songs, little gigs, and not enough backing for new ventures and material..

In the mean time CBS offers them a deal that they can write some of there own songs, get many music rights that Motown was not offering.. It was a great deal and they took it.

I think Michael has no hard feelings about Berry Gordy, he's often throughout the years has shared his love for Berry Gordy.. Talked about him in ONLY positive light without any hint of anger or resentment..
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KOPV, it was a well know theory that Berry was training Jermaine for his next major solo artist. It would appear that he had no such plans for Michael. This must have broken Michaels heart as he was the lead singer in the group. It could have helped with MJ's decision to leave Motown, don't you think?^_^
 
troubleman84 said:
I don't doubt that MJ gives kudos to Berry and he should because Berry helped send him and his family to the top of the world but I think during his stay in Motown there was tension developing between Berry and artists, I don't think Berry and most of the Jacksons were any different.
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I agree, and yearas later MJ turned him down for the 25 anniversary and he had to go himself to persuade MJ to take part. MJ couldn't have been that forgiving then, could he?^_^
 
I really don't think it would crush his heart..

I mean Jermain was his son in-law.. It's understandable..

plus Michael knows his talent, and knows while Jermaine is a good artist.. he aint no Michael Jackson..

Berry Gordy has always been known to mix business and plesure.. ;)

he mixed his personal life with his business A LOT.. from pushing Diana Ross as the solo artist.. To many other things..

While many things were probably really messed up, (behind the scenes)..

Michael was in his late teens.. he was grown up enough to know he's the shining star of the group.

Jermain has released solo stuff prior to them leaving motown and it sold a fraction of MJ's solo stuff.. I don't think Mike would have an issue..

He knew the business by then..
 
KOPV said:
I really don't think it would crush his heart..

I mean Jermain was his son in-law.. It's understandable..

plus Michael knows his talent, and knows while Jermaine is a good artist.. he aint no Michael Jackson..

Berry Gordy has always been known to mix business and plesure.. ;)

he mixed his personal life with his business A LOT.. from pushing Diana Ross as the solo artist.. To many other things..

While many things were probably really messed up, (behind the scenes)..

Michael was in his late teens.. he was grown up enough to know he's the shining star of the group.

Jermain has released solo stuff prior to them leaving motown and it sold a fraction of MJ's solo stuff.. I don't think Mike would have an issue..

He knew the business by then..
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You are talking about a very young Michael jackson here, a child even. Also, he couldn't have been so sure of his talent when the boss had singled out jermaine to be the next solo artist, now could he? michael was about 15 here I think?
 
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Michael was 17...

Michael was not JUMPING to the idea of leaving Motown.. It was his brothers and Joe convincing him that it was a good move..


Jermaines first solo hit was in 1972.. 3 years prior leaving Motown.

Jermaine did not have any solo records with Motown in 1974 or 1975..

which means motown did not PUSH Jermaine as a solo artist untill a year after the Jacksons left Motown.. if they were really trying to make him big.. Why only release 1 single in 1976. 1 in 1977.. 1 in 1978... Non in 1979

that is only 3 singles between 1975-1079.. 4 years after the Jacksons left..

I don't think that was Berry's plan..


with the Jackson 5 they would have around 3 singles released A YEAR.


P.S. it was not untill late 1979- early 1980 that Jermaine had his first and ONLY number 1 hit with Motown..and that was JUST on US R&B charts. no billboard, no nothin'.

they would have pushed him alot harder if that were the plan
 
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Sometimes I wonder if there was a time when Berry Gordy tried to sabbotage the jacksons. Some things don't add up to me sometimes. I think that he sued them for breach of contract when they left, he took their names and this hurt them badly cause they had to re-established themselves with a different name, and he contributed to breaking up the group by keeping jermaine with him, even though he did very little with jermaine. Jermaine should have been a big solo artist, he has the voice for it, but nothing was done to promote him properly.
 
^^ Ya.. I did not agree with the legal issues that came about..

though I can kinda understand it.. I mean, motown wanted to keep that name so they can make money off of them.. (understandable) to an extent.. But it really left the Jacksons in a hard spot..
 
It was all very well explained by Michael himself on Moonwalk, they needed more control of their career so they chose to leave Motown, and Jermaine stayed because he was Berrys son-in-law.

The thing Berry Gordy must regret is not allowing Michael to grow as an artist the way he wanted to.
 
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When Michael was as young as sixteen, he was openly complaining to Berry about wanting more control of his work and he knew why Berry favored Jermaine - hell, the guy was dating his daughter for chrissakes. He also tried to push Stephanie Mills as the next Diana but she didn't like the way he promoted her so SHE left and had monumental success. She even beat Diana in the 1981 Grammys winning one for "Never Knew Love Like This Before". IMHO, the Jackson 4 (Jackie, Tito, Marlon and Michael) left Motown at the right time - the label was falling apart. It took the funk of Rick James to bring it back from the dead.
 
KOPV said:
^^ Ya.. I did not agree with the legal issues that came about..

though I can kinda understand it.. I mean, motown wanted to keep that name so they can make money off of them.. (understandable) to an extent.. But it really left the Jacksons in a hard spot..
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I still think Mike and 'em can fight to get that name back as well as their masters. But that's just my own dream.
 
troubleman84 said:
I still think Mike and 'em can fight to get that name back as well as their masters. But that's just my own dream.
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The Jacksons have got their name back Timmy, it was a 20 year ban. Joe wrote it in his book. I don't know about the masters though. It was n't theirs in the first place, although they paid for them.:)
 
Datsymay said:
The Jacksons have got their name back Timmy, it was a 20 year ban. Joe wrote it in his book. I don't know about the masters though. It was n't theirs in the first place, although they paid for them.:)
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Well if that's the case then, I wonder how many royalties they get from the songs since I know that artists do get probably slant royalties.
 
troubleman84 said:
Well if that's the case then, I wonder how many royalties they get from the songs since I know that artists do get probably slant royalties.
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I doubt that the royalties are worth collecting, it was so small that they could hardly feel the effect of it. I would think that Motown artist got most of their money from tv apearances and concerts, rather than royalties.:)
 
Datsymay said:
I doubt that the royalties are worth collecting, it was so small that they could hardly feel the effect of it. I would think that Motown artist got most of their money from tv apearances and concerts, rather than royalties.:)
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Yeah I knew that. That's probably why they did so much touring. And if they had hits, Motown would lease them money to let them do whatever they wanted. When Diana Ross left Motown in 1981, she found out she had only earned only a slant of the money she made for the company after over 20 years. She had to learn about real estate and business affairs soon afterwards and set up the production companies - I think she had six - to get a good fortune. Now she's rich enough where she doesn't have to work as much as she wants to but she still tours so she loves doing it, I guess.
 
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well I'm sure Michael and the brothers have some type of writes to the old music knowing the fact that Michael released some Motown material on Ultimate Collections.. which was with SONY..

I honestly don't know how everything works, and is put together in that regard.. I know they can just get the rights to put it on an album with 'share' royalties.. But I think they do have the right to them..

I mean they have performed it in non Motown settings many times.. Either they payed Motown to use them, or they have the rights, or shared rights..

IDK.... anyone?
 
Well most of the Jackson 5/solo MJ, Jackie and Jermaine material is in Berry's publishing company Jobete Music Publishing, the main company that owns all the Motown music pre-1988, the year Berry sold the company. Berry still has Jobete in his ownership.
 
Datsymay said:
I have often wonder if Berry Gordy regretted the way he treated MJ towards the end of their stay their. As we know Berry was not prepared to sign a new contract with the Jacksons. As far as he was concerned, they had served their purpose and he couldn't do anymore for them, but he missed the opportunity of grooming MJ for a solo career. We know that he wanted Jermaine to be the next Marvin Gaye. This must have made MJ feel very disappointed in him and may even have rocked MJ's confidence some how.
Jermaine, could have and should have been the next Marvin Gaye, but why did Berry missed the boat with Michael. Why did he not see a potential winner there and stick with him?^_^
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the chances of predicting the future are like putting your finger in water, taking it out and expecting a hole to remain there.
 
troubleman84 said:
Well most of the Jackson 5/solo MJ, Jackie and Jermaine material is in Berry's publishing company Jobete Music Publishing, the main company that owns all the Motown music pre-1988, the year Berry sold the company. Berry still has Jobete in his ownership.
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yeah..but that doesn't answer the question of the post above yours..

lol...honestly, i don't know the answer myself..
 
Michael was actually thinking of purchasing jobete music publishing at one point, when Berry Gordy was thinking of putting it up for sale. But he never did, so Michael didn't get the chance.

Jermaine wasn't really favored by Berry. He was on a family basis, sure, because he was his son-in-law, but the thing about Jermaine being the next Marvin Gaye was started simply because of the family connection. I'm sure Berry knew Jermaine never could have been the next Marvin Gaye. He's alright, but not nearly that good. They were putting out solo records from Michael before Jermaine. Berry Gordy probably regretts letting Michael go because in hind sight, anyone who knew anything could see how talented Michael was and they could have seen where that kind of talent would lead. But Berry said no, his loss. The Jacksons did bad on CBS for their first two albums and the label was even thinking of dropping them, until they got a chance to produce and write their own material, which really tapped in to Michael's songwriting genius finally, along with Randy, and they started having hits. Of course when Michael went out on his own, it was just another level. CBS would have never gotten over it if they dropped Michael at that time, lol.
 
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wannabestartinsomthin21 said:
Michael was actually thinking of purchasing jobete music publishing at one point, when Berry Gordy was thinking of putting it up for sale. But he never did, so Michael didn't get the chance.

Jermaine wasn't really favored by Berry. He was on a family basis, sure, because he was his son-in-law, but the thing about Jermaine being the next Marvin Gaye was started simply because of the family connection. I'm sure Berry knew Jermaine never could have been the next Marvin Gaye. He's alright, but not nearly that good. They were putting out solo records from Michael before Jermaine. Berry Gordy probably regretts letting Michael go because in hind sight, anyone who knew anything could see how talented Michael was and they could have seen where that kind of talent would lead. But Berry said no, his loss. The Jacksons did bad on CBS for their first two albums and the label was even thinking of dropping them, until they got a chance to produce and write their own material, which really tapped in to Michael's songwriting genius finally, along with Randy, and they started having hits. Of course when Michael went out on his own, it was just another level. CBS would have never gotten over it if they dropped Michael at that time, lol.
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Yeah Gamble & Huff, as great as they were and are, they produce the bulk of the first two Jacksons albums. Actually their CBS debut did go gold but you're right about the label nearly dropping them after "Going Places" tanked. When CBS finally decided to allow them FULL CONTROL after they moved to Epic, that's when the real magic happened. By then, Rick James had barely saved Motown, Diana and Stevie were still having hits and Marvin was slowly on his way out of the label. Jermaine did do decent for the company, he was responsible for signing the DeBarge family to the label, I believe. :yes:
 
I know, but he wasn't the next Marvin Gaye, I know you know that Timmy, lol. He did okay, but he didn't move mountains.
 
Gordy mostly cared about money, not the artists. Ask Florence Ballard or Mary Wells. Some acts like Gladys Knight and the Pips, The Isley Brothers, & The Spinners became really successful after leaving Motown. Gordy didn't want to release Marvin Gaye's What's Going On and said it was the worst thing he ever heard. A lot of Diana Ross & The Supremes later stuff was really Diana and The Adantes, Motown's house backup girl group. The only person who had a good deal was Stevie Wonder, and he only got that because he threatened to leave Motown when his contract expired when he turned 21. He was too valuable to the company. When Teena Marie was signed to Motown, she said she only made $100 dollars a week and this was in the 1980s. She sued the company and left. If The Jacksons had of stayed with the label, they would be in the same situation as most of their other acts.
 
DuranDuran said:
Gordy mostly cared about money, not the artists. Ask Florence Ballard or Mary Wells. Some acts like Gladys Knight and the Pips, The Isley Brothers, & The Spinners became really successful after leaving Motown. Gordy didn't want to release Marvin Gaye's What's Going On and said it was the worst thing he ever heard. A lot of Diana Ross & The Supremes later stuff was really Diana and The Adantes, Motown's house backup girl group. The only person who had a good deal was Stevie Wonder, and he only got that because he threatened to leave Motown when his contract expired when he turned 21. He was too valuable to the company. When Teena Marie was signed to Motown, she said she only made $100 dollars a week and this was in the 1980s. She sued the company and left. If The Jacksons had of stayed with the label, they would be in the same situation as most of their other acts.
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Don't forget Smokey Robinson when you mention Motown artists he was cool with. But Smoke probably gets a "pass" somewhat because he was actually there during the first actual year of Motown's founding. The Miracles were one of the first acts signed to the company and their "Shop Around" was the label's first million seller. Regardless though, Smokey did feel a little betrayed when Berry sold Motown in 1988. He left his VP post that year and left the label like three years later.
 
troubleman84 said:
Don't forget Smokey Robinson when you mention Motown artists he was cool with. But Smoke probably gets a "pass" somewhat because he was actually there during the first actual year of Motown's founding. The Miracles were one of the first acts signed to the company and their "Shop Around" was the label's first million seller. Regardless though, Smokey did feel a little betrayed when Berry sold Motown in 1988. He left his VP post that year and left the label like three years later.
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But like you said Smokey was VP (and staff writer and producer). His albums were never really big sellers like Stevie's, Marvin's, or later on Lionel Richie's. He was mostly a singles artist and most of his albums are out of print in the US except for compilations, the Quiet Storm album (and and they've never even bothered to remaster it).
 
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