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Did Invincible have too many songwriters?

Did Invincible have too many songwriters?

  • Yes

    Votes: 14 35.9%

  • No

    Votes: 15 38.5%

  • Don't Know

    Votes: 10 25.6%
  • Total voters
    39

analogue

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Jul 25, 2011
Messages
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Points
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I've heard alot of fans say that Invincible had too many songwriters and that MJ was relying too much on outside help. I don't know what to think about this because i don't know if the album would have been any better or any worse if the songwriters were cut down
 
I think that Michael wrote 90% of Invincible, but he was so good that he gave songwriting and production credits to anyone who was in studio for each song. Credits means money so I think that everybody wants their share and during the '80 and '90 that wasn't so important. Only 1-2 main songwriters were credited and the rest of them got some other less important credits.
 
OnirMJ said:
during the '80 and '90 that wasn't so important. Only 1-2 main songwriters were credited and the rest of them got some other less important credits.
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very true :

If Bad was released in the 2000's...it would have been different for the credits !

this being said, MJ wanted a new sound so there is these producers...but it was the same in History for example...
 
I voted no because it doesn't matter to me, I like invincible and think it is a good album. Even if it had a million songwriters I would not be bothered, I just enjoy listening to it :)
 
Michael's best songs are always the ones he writes by himself. Billie Jean, Who Is It, Stranger In Moscow, Beat It, Morphine, They Don't Care About Us, Speechless, Will You Be There, Little Susie....

Two of my favourite songs on Invincible are Speechless and The Lost Children, largely because they sound very personal and close to Michael's heart. They also happen to be two of the most melodic songs on the album (and is it any coincidence that they are the only two tracks solely written by Michael?).

I personally don't believe that MJ was very invested in the Invincible album, as a whole. Many of the tracks on the album sound as if MJ merely picked songs by outside songwriters to record, rather than doing the hard work himself. These songs mostly leave me feeling cold.
 
I agree. The songs that MJ co-wrote with other people during Dangerous, HIStory and Blood On The Dance Floor still had a big Michael Jackson feel to them. You could tell that MJ had put his stamp on those songs. Invincible doesn't have that Michael Jackson sound with the exception of a few songs.
 
loka said:
this being said, MJ wanted a new sound so there is these producers...but it was the same in History for example...
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Sorry, but this is not true. Compare the credits on each song on HIStory to those on Invincible and you'll notice that, on HIStory, the average number of producers is about 2 per song. On Invincible it's more like 4-5. And, yes, I do believe this affected the quality of the material.
 
APOM said:
Sorry, but this is not true. Compare the credits on each song on HIStory to those on Invincible and you'll notice that, on HIStory, the average number of producers is about 2 per song. On Invincible it's more like 4-5. And, yes, I do believe this affected the quality of the material.
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Songs that MJ wrote by himself on HIStory:

TDCAU
Stranger In Moscow
Earth Song
D.S.
Money
Childhood
Little Susie

Songs MJ wrote by himself on Dangerous:

Heal The World
Black or White
Who Is It
Give Into Me
Will You Be There

Songs MJ wrote by himself on Bad:

Bad
TWYMMF
Speed Demon
Liberian Girl
APOM
IJCSLY
Dirty Diana
Smooth Criminal
Leave Me Alone

This is why I prefer his older albums to Invincible. Michael only single-handedly wrote 2 songs on Invincible and it shows. Songs like 2000 Watts and Don't Walk Away sound like someone trying to write a Michael Jackson song. It's somebody elses vision of what Michael Jackson should sound like in the 21st century. They don't sound like authentic MJ to my ears.
 
I've always felt that whenever MJ would work on an album he should have made it his main goal to write most of the album himself. Of course he can leave the door open for anyone who wants to contribute but he should have just focust on writing most of the albums himself.

The Bad album is the closest were ever gonna get to having an album that's fully written and composed by MJ himself, and because the Bad album is where MJ wrote most of the songs i feel that it brings out his genius more than any other album
 
analogue said:
I've always felt that whenever MJ would work on an album he should have made it his main goal to write most of the album himself. Of course he can leave the door open for anyone who wants to contribute but he should have just focust on writing most of the albums himself.

The Bad album is the closest were ever gonna get to having an album that's fully written and composed by MJ himself, and because the Bad album is where MJ wrote most of the songs i feel that it brings out his genius more than any other album
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Very true. Nobodies denying the importance of outside collaboraters. One of my all time favourite Michael Jackson songs is Man In The Mirror and that's one he didn't write. But when he sings that song he sounds as if it's coming from him. I've heard the Siedah Garrett version, and Michael's just blows it out of the water. He sings it with such passion and conviction. He OWNS that song in spite of the fact that it was written for him by someone else.

You couldn't say the same about a lot of the Invincible tracks. The only songs on Invincible which sound like vintage MJ to me are Speechless, The Lost Chidren, YRMW, Unbreakable and Threatened. I also enjoy his delivery on Butterflies and YAML because he sounds sincere.

The rest of the songs sound like MJ just walked into the studio, said to his producer "what have you got for me?" and then layed down a vocal.
 
And with all this talk about MJ working with today's popular singers/producers like Akon and Will i am. I'm nervous that MJ's new album is gonna end up sounding like the songs we hear on mainstream radio today.

I personally don't want MJ to sound anything like they're auto tuned, melodic-less rubbish
 
analogue said:
And with all this talk about MJ working with today's popular singers/producers like Akon and Will i am. I'm nervous that MJ's new album is gonna end up sounding like the songs we hear on mainstream radio today.

I personally don't want MJ to sound anything like they're auto tuned, melodic-less rubbish
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Yeah, I agree. I don't understand all the fans going nuts over the will.i.am songs. What's will.i.am ever done which holds a candle to Billie Jean or Who Is It?

I'll remain open minded but I really hope we don't get an album full of Hold My Hand-esque songs. If I wanted to hear "Konvict music" at the beginning of every song, I'd buy an Akon album.
 
MattyJam said:
Two of my favourite songs on Invincible are Speechless and The Lost Children, largely because they sound very personal and close to Michael's heart. They also happen to be two of the most melodic songs on the album (and is it any coincidence that they are the only two tracks solely written by Michael?).
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That's ironic, because some people say those are the worst songs on the album.
 
APOM said:
Sorry, but this is not true. Compare the credits on each song on HIStory to those on Invincible and you'll notice that, on HIStory, the average number of producers is about 2 per song. On Invincible it's more like 4-5. And, yes, I do believe this affected the quality of the material.
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that's because MJ forgot to credit Bryan Loren on TDCAU and Philiganes on Stranger In Moscow lol

But all i wanna say is that I totally don't care...as much as i don't care when I enjoy listening to Motown Albums (in which MJ never wrote a song !)

and to finish : i prefer Invincible to History...
 
DuranDuran said:
That's ironic, because some people say those are the worst songs on the album.
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I know that The Lost Children gets bagged on a fair bit, but there's no denying that Speechless is one of the albums stronger cuts.
 
no. because Michael said that the songs were handed down to him from the heavens, already packaged. so, the magic was always there, as long as Michael was present, because he acknowledged that fact, no matter how many songwriters were in the house, from Motown to Invincible, and beyond. whether he just sang or both wrote and sang.
 
MattyJam said:
I know that The Lost Children gets bagged on a fair bit, but there's no denying that Speechless is one of the albums stronger cuts.
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I love The Lost Children. I think that it's a brilliant written song with awesome melody. The Lost Children is a song that had heart. I can't say the same thing about 2,000 Watts or Don't Walk Away (I still like those songs though)
 
analogue said:
I love The Lost Children. I think that it's a brilliant written song with awesome melody. The Lost Children is a song that had heart. I can't say the same thing about 2,000 Watts or Don't Walk Away (I still like those songs though)
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I enjoy The Lost Childen as well, it's definately in my top 5 Invincible tracks, although I can see why some fans dislike it.
 
Looks like i'm in the minority. I voted no. To my own surpise i realized a few days ago that Vince has overtaken HIStory as my favorite album eva. I used to think that the pain, sorrow and frustation brought about by the 1993 lies were somehow 'truer' and 'realer' (is that even a word? lol no it ain't, i just made it up kinda like confunked :p) than the feelings expressed on Invincible. I have since change my mind and i find myself enjoying them 21st century cuts more, a lot more.

The fact they play them Vince songs on the radio all the time might have something to do with it, now that i think of it. Actually i don't think i need to rationalize, overanalize or try to justify it in any way, it would take away some the magic of it all.

Speechless has been my favorite song of all time for the longest time and The lost children always sounded like an Irish lullaby to me, while You are my life i've always envisaged from the very beginning as a song dedicated to Michael's three little angels, which was in fact confirmed in the rebutal to that Bashir scam.

I love sooo many of the songs on the album and all the production work - from Rodney, to Teddy Riley, to Babyface, Floetry, everybody else involved....Just a few days ago i was watchin a Floetry vid on VH1 Europe and thinking of them girls with sooo much gratitude for creatin' such a gem as Butterflies.

Love it, love it all more and more each day :D
 
Shabuya said:
Looks like i'm in the minority. I voted no. To my own surpise i realized a few days ago that Vince has overtaken HIStory as my favorite album eva. I used to think that the pain, sorrow and frustation brought about by the 1993 lies were somehow 'truer' and 'realer' (is that even a word? lol no it ain't, i just made it up kinda like confunked :p) than the feelings expressed on Invincible. I have since change my mind and i find myself enjoying them 21st century cuts more, a lot more.

The fact they play them Vince songs on the radio all the time might have something to do with it, now that i think of it. Actually i don't think i need to rationalize, overanalize or try to justify it in any way, it would take away some the magic of it all.

Speechless has been my favorite song of all time for the longest time and The lost children always sounded like an Irish lullaby to me, while You are my life i've always envisaged from the very beginning as a song dedicated to Michael's three little angels, which was in fact confirmed in the rebutal to that Bashir scam.

I love sooo many of the songs on the album and all the production work - from Rodney, to Teddy Riley, to Babyface, Floetry, everybody else involved....Just a few days ago i was watchin a Floetry vid on VH1 Europe and thinking of them girls with sooo much gratitude for creatin' such a gem as Butterflies.

Love it, love it all more and more each day :D
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your domment about radio makes me wonder. sometimes i hear people say they like mundane songs, after they are played on the radio many times..

but..it's nice to know they are being played on the radio..

where? what station? is it online? what's the web address of the radio station, online?

because i have never heard Invinvicble songs played on the radio..at least, not the entire album..
 
MattyJam said:
Songs that MJ wrote by himself on HIStory:

TDCAU
Stranger In Moscow
Earth Song
D.S.
Money
Childhood
Little Susie

Songs MJ wrote by himself on Dangerous:

Heal The World
Black or White
Who Is It
Give Into Me
Will You Be There

Songs MJ wrote by himself on Bad:

Bad
TWYMMF
Speed Demon
Liberian Girl
APOM
IJCSLY
Dirty Diana
Smooth Criminal
Leave Me Alone

This is why I prefer his older albums to Invincible. Michael only single-handedly wrote 2 songs on Invincible and it shows. Songs like 2000 Watts and Don't Walk Away sound like someone trying to write a Michael Jackson song. It's somebody elses vision of what Michael Jackson should sound like in the 21st century. They don't sound like authentic MJ to my ears.
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I think we can't leave behind those songs MJ wrote with help of other people.

For me, those songs come from his own soul too.

For example, if you are a John Lennon fan, and you don't like McCartney, you can't take credits away of the songs John wrote with McCartney. Because they have his essence too.
 
144 said:
your domment about radio makes me wonder. sometimes i hear people say they like mundane songs, after they are played on the radio many times..

but..it's nice to know they are being played on the radio..

where? what station? is it online? what's the web address of the radio station, online?

because i have never heard Invinvicble songs played on the radio..at least, not the entire album..
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I'll give you the link, but then i'd have to use this :horsey: and this :western: 2 finish ya off and smart lil' me thinks u still need ur life. It's so special a radio station that it plays songs according to my whims and since i'm moodier worse than the weather as i have duly warned folks, u might be treadin' on extremely dangerous turf and you wouldn't want that. It's verrry hard to keep me entertained and focused on one thing for too long, as the peeps on the radio know; it takes a lllot of skill and courage to put up with my crazy behind lol.

Juuuust kiddin', don't mind that ramble. Unfortunately, it's not available, but it is true they play all of the songs from Invincible, which is indeed a wonderful surprise.
 
There are flaws in Invincible but I'm not sure if the songwriters are one of them.
 
analogue said:
I love The Lost Children. I think that it's a brilliant written song with awesome melody. The Lost Children is a song that had heart. I can't say the same thing about 2,000 Watts or Don't Walk Away (I still like those songs though)
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Lost Children is even more special than earth song...it's not an instant Hit but it's so brillant...simple and Brillant like Speechless...
 
My favourite songs from Invincible:

You Rock My World (Michael Jackson, Rodney Jerkins, Fred Jerkins III, LaShawn Daniels, Nora Payne)
Whatever Happens (Michael Jackson, Teddy Riley, Gil Cang, Jasmine Quay, Geoffrey Williams)
Threatened (Michael Jackson, Rodney Jerkins, Fred Jerkins III, LaShawn Daniels)
Speechless (Michael Jackson)
Heaven Can Wait (Michael Jackson, Teddy Riley, Andreao Heard, Nate Smith, Teron Beal, Eritza Laues, Kenny Quiller)

I don't like:

Cry (R. Kelly)
Privacy (Michael Jackson, Rodney Jerkins, Fred Jerkins III, LaShawn Daniels, Bernard Belle)
You Are My Life (Michael Jackson, Babyface, Carole Bayer Sager, John McClain)
Don't Walk Away (Michael Jackson, Teddy Riley, Richard Carlton Stites, Reed Vertelney)
The Lost Children (Michael Jackson)

All other tracks are great to me.

I love Invincible and I think that it's a great album. I don't think that Invincible had too many songwriters. If you like the song it doesn't matter if Michael wrote it by himself or with someone else. Michael loved Invincible and he was 100% involved in making it, and no mather how much songwriters and producers were involved Michael had the final decision.
 
OnirMJ said:
I think that Michael wrote 90% of Invincible, but he was so good that he gave songwriting and production credits to anyone who was in studio for each song. Credits means money so I think that everybody wants their share and during the '80 and '90 that wasn't so important. Only 1-2 main songwriters were credited and the rest of them got some other less important credits.
Click to expand...

I agree. Even if a songwriter changes one word in a song they want credit for it. This possibly could have been the case for Invincible. Or like you said, he gave credit to whoever was in the studio during the production of each song. It makes sense because I doubt it takes 5-6 people to write one song. Especially if Michael Jackson is one of the writers.

Michael was way too modest...


However, I love the Invincible album. My favorite song is on it...Speechless. So beautiful. Never heard a song like it, ever. It touches my heart.
 
I dislike most of the Invincible album, and I believe the reasons are that:

A) Yes, indeed there were too many songwriters. All of the different sounds coming from each writer/producer clashed, and you ended up with a stereotypical modern pop sound (which I strongly dislike).

B) The new guys he brought in to write/produce the album completely ruined it with (again) the modern pop sound. Michael shouldn't have tried to change his style to fit with the times, his classic sound was timeless.
 
Two words : Whatever Happens

The problem with this album was not at the fault of too many songwriters, it was of mediocre producing by Rodney Jerkins. The only track produced by him where it sounds like he took more than 15 minutes to complete was "Threatened", "Unbreakable", and "YRMW"

Teddy Riley as usual produced the best results. Whatever Happens, Heaven Can Wait, and Don't Walk Away is what a modern day Michael Jackson should sound like, same great storytelling technique, great melodies, and a lot emotion.
 
ThunderPower said:
I dislike most of the Invincible album, and I believe the reasons are that:

A) Yes, indeed there were too many songwriters. All of the different sounds coming from each writer/producer clashed, and you ended up with a stereotypical modern pop sound (which I strongly dislike).
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i'm curious to know which other pop songs sound like UNBREAKABLE OR Threatened ?

you won't believe me but I know similar songs like "Remember the time", "I can't let her get away", "give in to me", "stranger in moscow" released before or in the same time than these songs.

The bass line from "the way you make me feel" was well known

even some sounds from "Billie Jean" was common too...

The sounds from Dangerous were already on "GUY The Future" album...

the same remarks you did on Invincible can be made on other MJ albums...just make some research...
 
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