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Detailed list of unreleased songs that could be released

mj_frenzy;4281460 said:
A finished version (and not just a demo) of ‘Price Of Fame’ exists but only in his vaults.

It was completed and was also properly mixed and mastered during the ‘BAD’ album sessions because ‘Price Of Fame’ was meant to be on the ‘BAD’ album, but it was replaced at the last minute by the ‘BAD’ track on both the album and on the Pepsi Cola commercial.

‘Jungle’ is an almost finished, fast-paced track in which Michael Jackson raps most of his lines (the song is an outtake from the ‘Invincible’ album).

People who heard ‘Jungle’ have described it as very similar to ‘Tabloid Junkie’ and ‘Why You Wanna Trip On Me’ (in terms of vocal delivery and also theme).

‘Seduction’ is an almost complete, mid-tempo track that failed to make the ‘Invincible’ album (the song remains as an outtake from that album).

‘Tubeway’ is a fully finished song that Michael Jackson wrote and recorded in the early sessions of the ‘Invincible’ album sessions (the song remains as an outtake from that album).

‘Vibratonist’ is another fully finished song that Michael Jackson co-wrote with Teddy Riley and he recorded it in the early sessions of the ‘Invincible’ album sessions (the song remains as an outtake from that album).

‘Thank You For Life’ is another fully finished, unreleased song that Michael Jackson wrote and recorded for his ‘Off The Wall’ album.

There is also another finished song called ‘Slipped Away’ that Michael Jackson co-wrote with his brother Marlon Jackson (the song is an outtake from the ‘Triumph’ album).
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I would be overjoyed if this were true, but I'm sorry to ask what's your source on this mate?
 
mj_frenzy;4281460 said:
A finished version (and not just a demo) of ‘Price Of Fame’ exists but only in his vaults.

It was completed and was also properly mixed and mastered during the ‘BAD’ album sessions because ‘Price Of Fame’ was meant to be on the ‘BAD’ album, but it was replaced at the last minute by the ‘BAD’ track on both the album and on the Pepsi Cola commercial.

‘Jungle’ is an almost finished, fast-paced track in which Michael Jackson raps most of his lines (the song is an outtake from the ‘Invincible’ album).

People who heard ‘Jungle’ have described it as very similar to ‘Tabloid Junkie’ and ‘Why You Wanna Trip On Me’ (in terms of vocal delivery and also theme).

‘Seduction’ is an almost complete, mid-tempo track that failed to make the ‘Invincible’ album (the song remains as an outtake from that album).

‘Tubeway’ is a fully finished song that Michael Jackson wrote and recorded in the early sessions of the ‘Invincible’ album sessions (the song remains as an outtake from that album).

‘Vibratonist’ is another fully finished song that Michael Jackson co-wrote with Teddy Riley and he recorded it in the early sessions of the ‘Invincible’ album sessions (the song remains as an outtake from that album).

‘Thank You For Life’ is another fully finished, unreleased song that Michael Jackson wrote and recorded for his ‘Off The Wall’ album.

There is also another finished song called ‘Slipped Away’ that Michael Jackson co-wrote with his brother Marlon Jackson (the song is an outtake from the ‘Triumph’ album).
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According to Michael himself, ''Thank You For Life'' was written and recorded way before Off The Wall. So I wouldn't say that it was written or considered for the Off The Wall album
 
Mikky Dee;4281350 said:
I saw a song title on a list of unreleased MJ songs a few years ago and I was intrigued by it.

Does anyone have information on "California Grass" - is it actually a real song, or just an idea for a title or a topic??
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‘California Grass’ is actually a real song which was written and recorded by Michael Jackson during the ‘Dangerous’ album sessions (for inclusion on the ‘Dangerous’ album).

It has remained unreleased since then.

SmoothCriminal1995;4281475 said:
I would be overjoyed if this were true, but I'm sorry to ask what's your source on this mate?
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That information was also confirmed by Matt Forger who additionally revealed that ‘Price Of Fame’ was going to be included on the subsequent ‘Dangerous’ album.

But Michael Jackson did not include that song on a studio album for a second time.

dethorro;4281483 said:
According to Michael himself, ''Thank You For Life'' was written and recorded way before Off The Wall. So I wouldn't say that it was written or considered for the Off The Wall album
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According to several reliable sources, ‘Thank You For Life’ is an outtake from his ‘Off The Wall’ album.

mjfan_93;4281471 said:
Thank you so much for this amazing infos. Do you have any infos about Post-Trial tracks? Do you Know if there is any releasable Material From that era? I am so curious about Songs like „Rocker“, „Adore You“ ...
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Concerning post-trial unreleased tracks, there is a finished song called ‘Still The King’ (from the Will.i.am’s sessions).

Another finished track is ‘Can You’ (from the Will.i.am’s sessions).

‘Miss You’ (or, ‘I Will Miss You', or ‘I’m Gonna Miss You’) is another finished song dedicated to the memory of James Brown (from the Will.i.am’s sessions).

‘The Future’ is an almost complete, latin-oriented track with environmental lyrics (from the Will.i.am’s sessions).

In total, the unreleased songs (from the Will.i.am’s sessions) are around ten, while half of them are fully complete.

An important detail about these songs (from the Will.i.am’s sessions) is that all of them at that time were being kept in Michael Jackson’s personal hard drives and not in Will.i.am’s hard drives (because Will.i.am, as he told to BBC, he did not want such a huge responsibility).

This means that the Estate automatically acquired these songs when Michael Jackson died (but in case of a possible release the Will.i.am’s written permission is still required).

‘Stop Throwing Your Life Away’ is a fully finished track produced by the American producer Neff-U (in 2008).

‘He Who Makes The Sky Gray’ is another complete, gospel-oriented song (from the Bahrain sessions, recorded in 2006).

‘Light The Way’ is another complete song (from the Bahrain sessions, recorded in 2006).

‘D.I.E.’ is a nearly finished song from Michael Jackson’s very last recording sessions.

‘H2O’ is a track recorded in 2008 (October) but it has incomplete Michael Jackson’s vocals on it.

‘Breathe’ is a complete instrumental track recorded in 2009 (May).

The situation about the nearly complete ‘Adore You’ song is a bit hazy, because some people say the song has been lost, others say the song exists in the hard drives of the producers who worked on that song.

‘Rocker’ is a complete track that Michael Jackson worked on with Brad Buxer and Michael Durham Prince.

During the ‘This Is It’ Tour (and after the O2 London shows) Michael Jackson planned to release one new single every two or three months while touring and when the singles would reach ten to twelve he would include them on a brand new studio album (with few more new songs on it).
 
I don't wanna tease no one writing this, but,
Throwing Your Life has a great bridge.
The first time i heard that i was speechless.
I'm still wondering why they didn't include this song in the BAD 25 2nd disc.
 
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Hmm... the post above is pretty shady. What's your source. I doubt he recorded anything in May 2009 considering what was going on behind the scenes. And neff u said he sent MJ songs but never heard anything back? So its unlikely MJ finished one of his songs.
 
mj_frenzy;4281609 said:
During the ‘This Is It’ Tour (and after the O2 London shows) Michael Jackson planned to release one new single every two or three months while touring and when the singles would reach ten to twelve he would include them on a brand new studio album (with few more new songs on it).
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I've always thought this was such an amazing and innovative idea. It is just so tragic that none of it ever came to pass.
 
Stefano MJS said:
I don't wanna tease no one writing this, but,
Throwing Your Life has a great bridge.
The first time i heard that i was speechless.
I'm still wondering why they didn't include this song in the BAD 25 2nd disc.
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Maybe a dispute with someone who worked on it or something, the estate don't seem that bothered about doing anything respectfully and can't release a lot of songs as a result.
 
Also MJfrenzy can you please stop saying things as if they are fact and then providing no source for what you're saying.
 
Wouldn't mind if the estate released half-finished songs/ sketches. Wasn't In The Back just that? And it was magical. Or is it that what's in the vault is less fleshed-out?
 
Wilmert said:
Wouldn't mind if the estate released half-finished songs/ sketches. Wasn't In The Back just that? And it was magical. Or is it that what's in the vault is less fleshed-out?
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A lot of stuff is on the same level as In The Back or even less finished than that. I agree I wanna hear it all tbh haha.
 
AlwaysThere said:
I'm So Blue alone reinforces my belief that there are still masterpieces to be found in the vault. I'd honestly and truly put it in my top five favorite Michael Jackson songs -- and it's an outtake that was never meant to see the light of day.
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I agree. Some of his so called demos are true masterpieces. The demos of TGIM and WATW are (imo) superior to their released final cuts.
 
mj_frenzy;4281460 said:
A finished version (and not just a demo) of ‘Price Of Fame’ exists but only in his vaults.

It was completed and was also properly mixed and mastered during the ‘BAD’ album sessions because ‘Price Of Fame’ was meant to be on the ‘BAD’ album, but it was replaced at the last minute by the ‘BAD’ track on both the album and on the Pepsi Cola commercial.
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"Bad" was never in danger of being shelved; it was literally the first short film that went into production (i.e., in November 1986, only two months after the Westlake sessions began). While it is true that "Price of Fame" was pulled from the Pepsi campaign (as per the alternate lyric version) and was briefly resurrected for Dangerous, there's no way it could've ever jeopardized the inclusion of "Bad." If this is accurate, you must be mixing up song titles.

‘Jungle’ is an almost finished, fast-paced track in which Michael Jackson raps most of his lines (the song is an outtake from the ‘Invincible’ album).

People who heard ‘Jungle’ have described it as very similar to ‘Tabloid Junkie’ and ‘Why You Wanna Trip On Me’ (in terms of vocal delivery and also theme).
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This is paraphrased from something stated by Damien Shields, who also said that he doesn't think Michael ever recorded "Jungle."

mj_frenzy;4281609 said:
Concerning post-trial unreleased tracks, there is a finished song called ‘Still The King’ (from the Will.i.am’s sessions).

Another finished track is ‘Can You’ (from the Will.i.am’s sessions).

‘Miss You’ (or, ‘I Will Miss You', or ‘I’m Gonna Miss You’) is another finished song dedicated to the memory of James Brown (from the Will.i.am’s sessions).

‘The Future’ is an almost complete, latin-oriented track with environmental lyrics (from the Will.i.am’s sessions).

In total, the unreleased songs (from the Will.i.am’s sessions) are around ten, while half of them are fully complete.
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Of the four credible sources who have publicly commented on the state of the will.i.am collaborations, two (John Branca/Karen Langford) claim that nothing exists beyond choruses, one (Joe Vogel) states that at least two songs are finished and a third is about 3/4th finished, and one (will.i.am) has vaguely stated that everything they did is "unfinished." Only "I'm Dreamin'" could be justifiably and reasonably assumed to be releasable, given that will.i.am attempted to include it on his 2013 album. The four titles you mentioned certainly exist in some capacity, but finished? Doubtful.

‘Stop Throwing Your Life Away’ is a fully finished track produced by the American producer Neff-U (in 2008).
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"Stop Throwing Your Life Away" is a reworked version of "Throwing Your Life Away," which was recorded in September 1988. It was one of a handful of unreleased demos Michael asked Neff-U to tinker with in 2008.

The situation about the nearly complete ‘Adore You’ song is a bit hazy, because some people say the song has been lost, others say the song exists in the hard drives of the producers who worked on that song.
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It's not lost. I spoke to someone who heard it last summer.

Additionally, Brad Buxer spoke about it in his MJ Cast interview.

‘Rocker’ is a complete track that Michael Jackson worked on with Brad Buxer and Michael Durham Prince.
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"Rocker" is apparently quite incredible, but it's most certainly not finished.

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All due respect, mj_frenzy, but you seem to do the same thing over and over again: find a song title that is confirmed to exist and jump to the conclusion that it's finished. Nearly every song title you mentioned has little to no publicly available evidence to support your claims of completion.
 
Stefano MJS said:
I don't wanna tease no one writing this, but,
Throwing Your Life has a great bridge.
The first time i heard that i was speechless.
I'm still wondering why they didn't include this song in the BAD 25 2nd disc.
Click to expand...

I prefer when they save the best songs for studio albums, which catch the public's attention far more than reissues or box sets and thus allows for the material to reach a wider audience. For example, you likely wouldn't find anyone in the general public who could identify "I'm So Blue" or "Beautiful Girl," though I've personally met several non-fans/general fans who know of "Slave to the Rhythm" and "Hold My Hand."

Wilmert said:
Wouldn't mind if the estate released half-finished songs/ sketches. Wasn't In The Back just that? And it was magical. Or is it that what's in the vault is less fleshed-out?
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I've envisioned a HIStory: Book II box set that comprises of four discs:

  1. HIStory Fulfilled - finished songs ("Chicago 1945," "Throwing Your Life Away," etc.)
  2. HIStory Begins - demos/alternate versions of previously released songs ("The Girl is Mine," "Speed Demon," etc.)
  3. HIStory Established - unfinished songs ("Deep in the Night," "Family Thing," etc.)
  4. HIStory Approximated - songs that Michael was working on at the time of his death ("Rocker," "Adore You," etc.)

Think of it similar to The Ultimate Collection. The final disc would be seen as an approximation of the album Michael was working on at the time of his death, which I think would be interesting by virtue of getting to see where his mind was at at the time of his passing. I think it would be an awesome way to give the fans a little bit of everything while cleaning out the vault of the material that the Estate otherwise has no use for.
 
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mj_frenzy;4281460 said:
A finished version (and not just a demo) of ‘Price Of Fame’ exists but only in his vaults.

It was completed and was also properly mixed and mastered during the ‘BAD’ album sessions because ‘Price Of Fame’ was meant to be on the ‘BAD’ album, but it was replaced at the last minute by the ‘BAD’ track on both the album and on the Pepsi Cola commercial..
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Yeah this is absolute BS. The Bad short film was shot in 1986. Super last minute.
 
AlwaysThere;4281679 said:
"Bad" was never in danger of being shelved; it was literally the first short film that went into production (i.e., in November 1986, only two months after the Westlake sessions began). While it is true that "Price of Fame" was pulled from the Pepsi campaign (as per the alternate lyric version) and was briefly resurrected for Dangerous, there's no way it could've ever jeopardized the inclusion of "Bad." If this is accurate, you must be mixing up song titles.

This is paraphrased from something stated by Damien Shields, who also said that he doesn't think Michael ever recorded "Jungle."

Of the four credible sources who have publicly commented on the state of the will.i.am collaborations, two (John Branca/Karen Langford) claim that nothing exists beyond choruses, one (Joe Vogel) states that at least two songs are finished and a third is about 3/4th finished, and one (will.i.am) has vaguely stated that everything they did is "unfinished." Only "I'm Dreamin'" could be justifiably and reasonably assumed to be releasable, given that will.i.am attempted to include it on his 2013 album. The four titles you mentioned certainly exist in some capacity, but finished? Doubtful.

"Stop Throwing Your Life Away" is a reworked version of "Throwing Your Life Away," which was recorded in September 1988. It was one of a handful of unreleased demos Michael asked Neff-U to tinker with in 2008.

It's not lost. I spoke to someone who heard it last summer.

Additionally, Brad Buxer spoke about it in his MJ Cast interview.

"Rocker" is apparently quite incredible, but it's most certainly not finished.

---------------------------------------

All due respect, mj_frenzy, but you seem to do the same thing over and over again: find a song title that is confirmed to exist and jump to the conclusion that it's finished. Nearly every song title you mentioned has little to no publicly available evidence to support your claims of completion.
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Even if the ‘BAD’ song was never in danger of being shelved (on the album in favour of ‘Price Of Fame’), considering that ‘Price Of Fame’ was replaced eventually by ‘BAD’ on the Pepsi Cola commercial this shows that there is also an official, finished version of ‘Price Of Fame’ (and not just a demo).

‘Jungle’ is a registered, almost finished track (with full Michael Jackson’s vocals on it) and it is a song that Brad Buxer with Michael Durham Prince worked on it.

About Will.i.am, he said that the songs were not just perfected in the way someone like Michael Jackson wanted them to be perfected.

So, apparently these songs are in a releasable stage of completion.

‘I'm Dreamin’’ was the first of the songs that they finished together (according to reports at the time), not the only song that they finished together.

Will.i.am also revealed in 2007 that by that time he had already finished some songs with Michael Jackson:

“… We’re taking it day by day, we’ve finished some songs. I like what I’m doing, I’m really happy with it, but it’s not my project to talk about…” (Will.i.am, Rolling Stone Magazine, 2007)

It is abundantly clear from his above statement that the finished songs in 2007 were more than just one or two.

And Will.i.am worked on songs with Michael Jackson for about two more years (after the above statement) which is an enough period of time for nearly completing even more songs for Michael Jackson’s planned comeback studio album at the time.
 
mj_frenzy;4281784 said:
Even if the ‘BAD’ song was never in danger of being shelved (on the album in favour of ‘Price Of Fame’), considering that ‘Price Of Fame’ was replaced eventually by ‘BAD’ on the Pepsi Cola commercial this shows that there is also an official, finished version of ‘Price Of Fame’ (and not just a demo).
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Price of Fame was dropped off the main Westlake sessions very quickly. It never was a serious album contender albeit still being the main theme for the PEPSI spots for some more time.

From January '87 onwards until the albums release the "A team" had worked on only 12 songs - which were all completed. 11 of them have been released on the BAD album, leaving Streetwalker the only existing BAD outtake (which hasn't been released 'til this day).



Note: The version of Streetwalker as released on BAD SE & BAD25 is a 1988 mix, which is based on the 1986 Encino demo.


Note #2: There're few statements, quotes, tiny infos from several session guys, etc. from the 1999-2001 era regarding the 2001 SE releases. If reading those between the lines, then imo the withholding of the final 1987 mix of Streetwalker (as well as Starlight on Thriller SE) were due to royalty disagreements.
 
mj_frenzy;4281784 said:
Even if the ‘BAD’ song was never in danger of being shelved (on the album in favour of ‘Price Of Fame’), considering that ‘Price Of Fame’ was replaced eventually by ‘BAD’ on the Pepsi Cola commercial this shows that there is also an official, finished version of ‘Price Of Fame’ (and not just a demo).
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Within this logic, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that we already have the finished version of "Price of Fame?" The Pepsi lyric version features the same instrumental as the Bad 25 mix, similar to how the Pepsi lyric versions of "Bad" and "Black or White" use the same music from the studio versions. If a completed version of "Price of Fame" existed preceding the 1988 Pepsi campaign, why did Michael use the demo instrumental? Seems like assumptions on your part.

‘Jungle’ is a registered, almost finished track (with full Michael Jackson’s vocals on it) and it is a song that Brad Buxer with Michael Durham Prince worked on it.
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Where are you getting this information?

"Jungle" was one of dozens of titles registered after Michael's passing by the Estate, several of which (e.g., "H2O," "Changes," "Days in Gloucestershire," "Rocker") are known to be vocally incomplete. Just because it exists within the US Copyright Office doesn't mean it's a fully completed track.

Additionally, the only person to ever publicly discuss the track (Damien Shields) has stated that Michael likely never recorded it, and the only version he's aware of is a Dr. Freeze demo.

About Will.i.am, he said that the songs were not just perfected in the way someone like Michael Jackson wanted them to be perfected.

So, apparently these songs are in a releasable stage of completion.

‘I'm Dreamin’’ was the first of the songs that they finished together (according to reports at the time), not the only song that they finished together.

Will.i.am also revealed in 2007 that by that time he had already finished some songs with Michael Jackson:

“… We’re taking it day by day, we’ve finished some songs. I like what I’m doing, I’m really happy with it, but it’s not my project to talk about…” (Will.i.am, Rolling Stone Magazine, 2007)
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will.i.am is notoriously inconsistent in relation to his collaborations with Michael. One minute the songs are finished and releasable; the next he's unwilling to do anything with them out of respect for Michael's perfectionism; the next he wants one on his own album; the next he'll consider releasing them if Katherine Jackson contacts him personally.

"I'm Dreamin'" isn't the only track they've completed, but it's the only one that we can confirm has enough vocals to be released.

Additionally, "we've finished some songs" means what exactly? "Some" is as subjective of a word as it gets.

will.i.am has only ever confirmed a handful of titles. Certainly not ten. And he's certainly never said that he has five finished songs.

It is abundantly clear from his above statement that the finished songs in 2007 were more than just one or two.

And Will.i.am worked on songs with Michael Jackson for about two more years (after the above statement) which is an enough period of time for nearly completing even more songs for Michael Jackson’s planned comeback studio album at the time.
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So, basically what you're saying is that everything you said was an assumption.

The time Michael spent with will.i.am is entirely irrelevant in relation to the amount of material they completed, because Michael's creative process was notoriously strenuous and elongated. For example, he worked with Neff-U for 2-3 years and didn't finish a single track. He worked with Akon for around 7-8 months and finished one song. Michael Prince and Brad Buxer, Michael's two most frequent collaborators between 2006-09, stated that very little new music was finished in that time. John Barnes, who was a regular face from 2004 to 2006, stated that one song was finished in that time.

I'm not trying to be rude, but this spread of misinformation is only causing further confusion to an already perplexing topic.
 
Lots of misinformation on this thread. I will add what I know, since it's being talked about publicly in here.

-Rocker
-Water
-Monster
-Adore You
-Remember What I Told You
-Can't Get Your Weight Off Me
-The Toy
-Chicago 1945
-Throwing Your Life Away
-Changes
-Neverland Landing
-Peter Pan
-Make A Wish
-Buffalo Bill

All of these songs exist and are in various stages of completion. They all have at least SOME vocals. I have personally heard them in their entirety and can verify they are 100% legit. I can only hope they are one day released. There are many others, but I can only comment on the songs I've heard with my own ears.
 
travis3000 said:
Lots of misinformation on this thread. I will add what I know, since it's being talked about publicly in here.

-Rocker
-Water
-Monster
-Adore You
-Remember What I Told You
-Can't Get Your Weight Off Me
-The Toy
-Chicago 1945
-Throwing Your Life Away
-Changes
-Neverland Landing
-Peter Pan
-Make A Wish
-Buffalo Bill

All of these songs exist and are in various stages of completion. They all have at least SOME vocals. I have personally heard them in their entirety and can verify they are 100% legit. I can only hope they are one day released. There are many others, but I can only comment on the songs I've heard with my own ears.
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Monster is one that really interests me, from the descriptions I've heard it's pretty good although incomplete
 
travis3000 said:
Lots of misinformation on this thread. I will add what I know, since it's being talked about publicly in here.

-Rocker
-Water
-Monster
-Adore You
-Remember What I Told You
-Can't Get Your Weight Off Me
-The Toy
-Chicago 1945
-Throwing Your Life Away
-Changes
-Neverland Landing
-Peter Pan
-Make A Wish
-Buffalo Bill

All of these songs exist and are in various stages of completion. They all have at least SOME vocals. I have personally heard them in their entirety and can verify they are 100% legit. I can only hope they are one day released. There are many others, but I can only comment on the songs I've heard with my own ears.
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As far as I know, Michael only recorded the chorus of ''Monster'' right?

Can you give us some information regarding ''Rocker'' and ''Adore You''?
What do these songs sound like?
Is ''Adore You'' similar to ''Will You Be There'' (as Brad Buxer has stated)?
 
AlwaysThere, you accuse Will.i.am of being inconsistent when you are inconsistent with your own claims.

I will explain.

For example, you stated in the past that Will.i.am has proven himself a more trustworthy commentator than the Jackson Estate, and also that Will.i.am has at least four songs that he could release (including ‘The Future’, ‘I'm Dreamin'’ and ‘I Miss You’).

AlwaysThere;4217751 said:
[*]"The Future" (1980) - FINISHED or MOSTLY FINISHED
NOTE: The existence of the Will.i.am collaborations was called into question by Estate co-executor John Branca and archivist Karen Langford in 2017, when the two opined that no vocals existed from those sessions. This directly conflicts numerous statements made by Will.i.am between 2006 and 2017,
as well as his brazen attempt at releasing "I'm Dreamin'" (see above) on his own album. In spite of this, this track is included nonetheless, as Will.i.am has proven himself a more trustworthy commentator than the Jackson estate.
Source: Co-writer/co-producer Will.i.am
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AlwaysThere;3991641 said:
Will has four songs that he could release. That's it.
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AlwaysThere;3992743 said:
Miss You is one of the few that can be released actually, along with The Future.
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Now, you say in this thread that Will.i.am is notoriously inconsistent (in relation to his collaborations with Michael Jackson), and also you say that ‘I'm Dreamin'’ is the only song that has enough vocals to be released:

AlwaysThere;4281841 said:
will.i.am is notoriously inconsistent in relation to his collaborations with Michael. One minute the songs are finished and releasable; the next he's unwilling to do anything with them out of respect for Michael's perfectionism; the next he wants one on his own album; the next he'll consider releasing them if Katherine Jackson contacts him personally.

"I'm Dreamin'" isn't the only track they've completed, but it's the only one that we can confirm has enough vocals to be released.
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AlwaysThere;4281679 said:
Of the four credible sources who have publicly commented on the state of the will.i.am collaborations, two (John Branca/Karen Langford) claim that nothing exists beyond choruses, one (Joe Vogel) states that at least two songs are finished and a third is about 3/4th finished, and one (will.i.am) has vaguely stated that everything they did is "unfinished." Only "I'm Dreamin'" could be justifiably and reasonably assumed to be releasable, given that will.i.am attempted to include it on his 2013 album. The four titles you mentioned certainly exist in some capacity, but finished? Doubtful.
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Here is another example of your conflicting statements, in this case about Michael Durham Prince when you questioned the producer’s credibility:

AlwaysThere;4217649 said:
Also remember that neither Swedien nor Bill Bottrell had any recollection of "I'm So Blue" or "Song Groove/Abortion Papers" prior to their release, Brad Sundberg acknowledged a few titles he had never heard before (including "Man in Black"), Michael Prince referenced a few songs he had no memory of during an interview (one of which was "Can't Get Your Weight Off of Me"), and the Estate executives were unaware of "Hollywood Tonight" and "She Was Lovin' Me" until they were submitted by Prince and Cory Rooney, respectively. Why? Because no sole person was present for every single recording session Michael attended, and therefore can only comment on the sessions they were present for.
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And now you consider Michael Durham Prince a very credible source, for example with regard to the amount of finished music between 2006-2009.

AlwaysThere;4281841 said:
The time Michael spent with will.i.am is entirely irrelevant in relation to the amount of material they completed, because Michael's creative process was notoriously strenuous and elongated. For example, he worked with Neff-U for 2-3 years and didn't finish a single track. He worked with Akon for around 7-8 months and finished one song. Michael Prince and Brad Buxer, Michael's two most frequent collaborators between 2006-09, stated that very little new music was finished in that time. John Barnes, who was a regular face from 2004 to 2006, stated that one song was finished in that time.
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Or, another example when you questioned in the past the credibility of John Branca and Karen Langford:

AlwaysThere;4217815 said:
Branca and Langford's claim that there are no existing vocals from the Will.i.am sessions is a brazen lie in that it not only contradicts everything Will.i.am has said over the past 10 years, but also it fails to remember that "I'm Dreamin'" was at one point a release candidate.
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But now you consider John Branca and Karen Langford credible sources:

AlwaysThere;4281679 said:
Of the four credible sources who have publicly commented on the state of the will.i.am collaborations, two (John Branca/Karen Langford) claim that nothing exists beyond choruses
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So, given your conflicting statements about that, you seem to be actually in the dark about the exact stage of completion of the Will.i.am’s unreleased tracks that he worked on with Michael Jackson.

Also, Will.i.am is not really inconsistent with the stage of completion of the songs, he just does not know yet how exactly he wants to release them.

AlwaysThere;4281841 said:
Additionally, "we've finished some songs" means what exactly? "Some" is as subjective of a word as it gets.
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Although “some” is as subjective of a word as it gets, when it comes to countable nouns this word always means more than two.

Fuzball;4281814 said:
Price of Fame was dropped off the main Westlake sessions very quickly. It never was a serious album contender albeit still being the main theme for the PEPSI spots for some more time.

From January '87 onwards until the albums release the "A team" had worked on only 12 songs - which were all completed. 11 of them have been released on the BAD album, leaving Streetwalker the only existing BAD outtake (which hasn't been released 'til this day).



Note: The version of Streetwalker as released on BAD SE & BAD25 is a 1988 mix, which is based on the 1986 Encino demo.


Note #2: There're few statements, quotes, tiny infos from several session guys, etc. from the 1999-2001 era regarding the 2001 SE releases. If reading those between the lines, then imo the withholding of the final 1987 mix of Streetwalker (as well as Starlight on Thriller SE) were due to royalty disagreements.
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According to Matt Forger, 'Price Of Fame' along with some other songs, such as ‘Streetwalker', 'Fly Away', 'Cheater', 'Make Or Break', 'I'm So Blue', 'Free', were being worked on also during 1987 until the album’s release in August.

But the interesting thing that Matt Forger revealed is that the ‘BAD’ album (with the eleven songs) contains only 10% of the recorded material from the ‘BAD’ album recording sessions.
 
mj_frenzy;4281906 said:
According to Matt Forger, 'Price Of Fame' along with some other songs, such as ‘Streetwalker', 'Fly Away', 'Cheater', 'Make Or Break', 'I'm So Blue', 'Free', were being worked on also during 1987 until the album’s release in August.
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I'm pretty sure he was refering to the songs they've had worked on at the Encino house.
 
Fuzball said:
Price of Fame was dropped off the main Westlake sessions very quickly. It never was a serious album contender albeit still being the main theme for the PEPSI spots for some more time.

From January '87 onwards until the albums release the "A team" had worked on only 12 songs - which were all completed. 11 of them have been released on the BAD album, leaving Streetwalker the only existing BAD outtake (which hasn't been released 'til this day).



Note: The version of Streetwalker as released on BAD SE & BAD25 is a 1988 mix, which is based on the 1986 Encino demo.


Note #2: There're few statements, quotes, tiny infos from several session guys, etc. from the 1999-2001 era regarding the 2001 SE releases. If reading those between the lines, then imo the withholding of the final 1987 mix of Streetwalker (as well as Starlight on Thriller SE) were due to royalty disagreements.
Click to expand...

A studio engineer for Bad said that Cheater was worked on by the A team, also Groove Of Midnight was also worked on by the A team.
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
A studio engineer for Bad said that Cheater was worked on by the A team, also Groove Of Midnight was also worked on by the A team.
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I don't know about ''Cheater'' but ''Groove Of Midnight'' was definitely worked on by the A team.
It was written by Rod Temperton and it is very unlikely that he would have submitted the track before the A team started work at Westlake Studios. Plus, all of the songs (apart from ''Come Together'') recorded at the Encino home from 1984 til' 1986 were written by Michael. I don't think there is any demo from these sessions with the B team that wasn't written or co-written by Michael.
On the recording of ''Groove Of Midnight'' that we have, you can hear Rod Temperton say to Michael that his hair (Michael's) has grown very fast since the last time they saw each other in October (1986). This would mean that the recording session probably took place after January 1987 when Michael's hair was longer. You can even hear Bruce Swedien's voice, who was never present at the recording sessions with the B team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuiBPBmmULY
 
dethorro said:
On the recording of ''Groove Of Midnight'' that we have, you can hear Rod Temperton say to Michael that his hair (Michael's) has grown very fast since the last time they saw each other in October (1986). This would mean that the recording session probably took place after January 1987 when Michael's hair was longer. You can even hear Bruce Swedien's voice, who was never present at the recording sessions with the B team.
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I've always thought that recording was from 1986, and that Rod was refering to the 1982 Thriller sessions.
 
Fuzball said:
I've always thought that recording was from 1986, and that Rod was refering to the 1982 Thriller sessions.
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I don't think so. He says ''the last time I saw you in October'' not ''in 82'' and he says that his hair has grown ''really fast''. It wouldn't really make sense for him to say that if they hadn't seen each other in 4 years.
Just speculating though, of course. I wasn't there....although I wish I was LOL.

I find it quite funny how Rod says: '' You hair has grown really fast, hasn't it? It wasn't that long the last time I saw you in October, was it?''
Then Michael says: '' Pardon?''
And Rod answers, sounding a bit annoyed that Michael didn't understand him: ''You hair....has grown.''
 
mj_frenzy;4281906 said:
AlwaysThere, you accuse Will.i.am of being inconsistent when you are inconsistent with your own claims.
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You really went deep into my post history for this one! Impressive, but you're twisting my words and presenting several of my comments in a dishonest or deceptive manner. Let's break it down:

For example, you stated in the past that Will.i.am has proven himself a more trustworthy commentator than the Jackson Estate, and also that Will.i.am has at least four songs that he could release (including ‘The Future’, ‘I'm Dreamin'’ and ‘I Miss You’).

Now, you say in this thread that Will.i.am is notoriously inconsistent (in relation to his collaborations with Michael Jackson), and also you say that ‘I'm Dreamin'’ is the only song that has enough vocals to be released:
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Two of the three quotes you linked to are from 2014, i.e. a period where the fan community's sole source of information were scattered interviews and articles/books by Damien Shields and Joseph Vogel, the latter of whom is responsible for the "3-4 releasable songs" quote. Plenty of new information has come out in the intervening six years.

If you re-read the bolded comment, you'll note that I clearly state that "I'm Dreamin'" isn't the only finished will.i.am collaboration, but it IS the only one that we can confidently place in the "releasable" column, given that it is the only song to date that either party has made a known effort to release. The same cannot be said for any of the other titles.

Here is another example of your conflicting statements, in this case about Michael Durham Prince when you questioned the producer’s credibility:

And now you consider Michael Durham Prince a very credible source, for example with regard to the amount of finished music between 2006-2009.
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Michael Prince's leverage is nonexistent when it comes to material he was not there for. However, Prince was a predominant collaborator from 2006 onward; he spent more time with Michael in that period than any other producer or engineer, and oversaw the majority of that era's recording sessions. So yes, his word does have weight when he's addressing material that he himself recorded.

Or, another example when you questioned in the past the credibility of John Branca and Karen Langford:

But now you consider John Branca and Karen Langford credible sources:
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Branca and Langford are one of four people to publicly comment on the completion of the will.i.am collaborations. Regardless of past behavior and my own comments, I've come to realize that their comments cannot be counted out until someone else cares to shed light on the tracks.

Also, Will.i.am is not really inconsistent with the stage of completion of the songs, he just does not know yet how exactly he wants to release them.
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He's said several times over the years (most recently in October 2019) that he'd never release them out of respect for Michael's perfectionism, despite trying to put one on his own album back in 2013. That's textbook inconsistency.

Although “some” is as subjective of a word as it gets, when it comes to countable nouns this word always means more than two.
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Okay, sure. So three, which is the estimate that Joseph Vogel has given in the past. Certainly not five.

According to Matt Forger, 'Price Of Fame' along with some other songs, such as ‘Streetwalker', 'Fly Away', 'Cheater', 'Make Or Break', 'I'm So Blue', 'Free', were being worked on also during 1987 until the album’s release in August.

But the interesting thing that Matt Forger revealed is that the ‘BAD’ album (with the eleven songs) contains only 10% of the recorded material from the ‘BAD’ album recording sessions.
Click to expand...

Here is a crystal clear example of why your posts always incite such a strong response from me and others: you frame things in such a way that it defies the reality of the situation. Your phrasing implies that the remaining 90% of material from the Bad sessions exists in a releasable state, without acknowledging that songs such as "Free," "Make or Break," and "Al Capone" (all of which are incomplete) ALSO occupy that 90%.
 
AlwaysThere;4281924 said:
You really went deep into my post history for this one! Impressive, but you're twisting my words and presenting several of my comments in a dishonest or deceptive manner. Let's break it down:

Two of the three quotes you linked to are from 2014, i.e. a period where the fan community's sole source of information were scattered interviews and articles/books by Damien Shields and Joseph Vogel, the latter of whom is responsible for the "3-4 releasable songs" quote. Plenty of new information has come out in the intervening six years.

If you re-read the bolded comment, you'll note that I clearly state that "I'm Dreamin'" isn't the only finished will.i.am collaboration, but it IS the only one that we can confidently place in the "releasable" column, given that it is the only song to date that either party has made a known effort to release. The same cannot be said for any of the other titles.

Michael Prince's leverage is nonexistent when it comes to material he was not there for. However, Prince was a predominant collaborator from 2006 onward; he spent more time with Michael in that period than any other producer or engineer, and oversaw the majority of that era's recording sessions. So yes, his word does have weight when he's addressing material that he himself recorded.

Branca and Langford are one of four people to publicly comment on the completion of the will.i.am collaborations. Regardless of past behavior and my own comments, I've come to realize that their comments cannot be counted out until someone else cares to shed light on the tracks.

He's said several times over the years (most recently in October 2019) that he'd never release them out of respect for Michael's perfectionism, despite trying to put one on his own album back in 2013. That's textbook inconsistency.

Okay, sure. So three, which is the estimate that Joseph Vogel has given in the past. Certainly not five.
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Even when Michael Durham Prince is addressing material that he himself recorded with Michael Jackson, his word does not always have weight.

I will give a very characteristic example:

In one of his interviews (few years ago), he could not remember the third song that he himself worked on along with Michael Jackson at the Bel Air Hotel.

During those sessions at the hotel, Michael Jackson re-recorded his vocals for three songs, with the help of Michael Durham Prince, but the producer in that interview could remember only the two of them (‘Best Of Joy’ and ‘I Was A Loser’).

About Joseph Vogel, he also wrote, some years ago, that the three Cascio tracks (‘Breaking News’, ‘Keep Your Head Up’, and ‘Monster’) have the authentic Michael Jackson’s vocals on them.

Joseph Vogel also wrote that the ‘BAD’ album sessions began in late 1986, when in actual reality those sessions began on January 5th (1987) as confirmed also by Bruce Swedien who was physically there.

And I can assure you that there are also more examples which prove that Joseph Vogel has been wrong or inaccurate about certain things concerning Michael Jackson's music.

So, Joseph Vogel’s statements generally should not be taken for granted.

AlwaysThere;4281924 said:
Here is a crystal clear example of why your posts always incite such a strong response from me and others: you frame things in such a way that it defies the reality of the situation. Your phrasing implies that the remaining 90% of material from the Bad sessions exists in a releasable state, without acknowledging that songs such as "Free," "Make or Break," and "Al Capone" (all of which are incomplete) ALSO occupy that 90%.
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I do not frame things in such a way that it defies the reality of the situation.

My phrasing here does not imply that the remaining 90% of material from the ‘BAD’ sessions exists in a releasable state, because I referred to recorded material in general.

Fuzball;4281907 said:
I'm pretty sure he was refering to the songs they've had worked on at the Encino house.
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dethorro;4281909 said:
Obviously.
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In 1987, there were not ‘A-Team’ and ‘B-Team’, because members from both teams joined forces and created one team that was working on many songs (including the eleven ones that were included on the album).

Christopher Currell, for example, who initially started as a member of the ‘B-Team’ was closely working throughout 1987 (and until the album’s release) with Quincy Jones who came from the ‘A-Team’.
 
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