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Has Moonwalker been released uncut on blu-ray?

Re: entertainment

People here keep talking about free speech. There isn't and has never been such a thing. "Free speech" only has to do with the government in the USA. A private company or organization can censor anything they like for any reason they want to. Like on this site and others, mods can delete/edit comments that don't follow the rules of the site, that might be offensive, or they might ban members.
 
ChrisC said:
The Moonwalker film was passed in 1988 with a PG restriction by the BBFC (meaning anyone of any age can see it but the parent may decide some content is unsuitable for their child). The Moonwalker film again had its certificate reviewed by the BBFC as late as 2005 and again was passed uncut. What was considered "safe" for children to watch in 1988 was still considered so almost 20 years later albeit with the parent signing off and making that decision for their children. And when Moonwalker appeared quietly on DVD for the first time this was no big event in society - the audience by now was pretty small - and nobody cared or complained about the drug scene. Then in 2010 suddenly everything changed? Despite no one caring about what had been freely available on a modern media for years. They were selling to a small audience, and were overly concerned about a very small fraction of that already small audience getting offended and decided to quietly remove it just in case. Which is just cheap to me. As I asked earlier in the thread, were the filmmakers given the opportunity to make the edits themselves or consulted somehow?

And hey, the DVD is still in shops. Perhaps all the DVDs have been withdrawn from sale and have been replaced with the 'safely' sanitised version? Has anyone bought it in the last 10 years to confirm? If I was betting I'd say absolutely no change whatsoever has been made to the DVD because nobody cared about this scene in the first place. And I dare say, if the film ever receives an anniversary release or treatment (where any kind of effort or care is made) I would not be in the least bit surprised to see the scene back where it was before.
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The "censorship" hasn't anything to do with BBFCs past rating of Moonwalker. There is one important aspect you haven't considered.

The dvds were produced (and authored) individually for each region/market, while the bluray has been authored & produced for a worldwide release- hence only one (international) master was created. (the bd discs have no regional lock, btw)
 
Fuzball said:
The "censorship" hasn't anything to do with BBFCs past rating of Moonwalker. There is one important aspect you haven't considered.

The dvds were produced (and authored) individually for each region/market, while the bluray has been authored & produced for a worldwide release- hence only one (international) master was created. (the bd discs have no regional lock, btw)
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Blu-Rays can be region locked. Warner releases are usually region free for some reason.
 
Galactus123 said:
Warner releases are usually region free for some reason.
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Because it's cost efficient to produce catalogue titles on a single production line. They usually don't generate the same huge profit margins as new titles do.
 
Amaya said:
The scene where the grandma and her grandkid are reacting to Michael got changed too, when the kid is trying to get Michael's name out but can't say it so the grandma tries to finish it for him. In one version the grandma says "Prince?" and in another she says... some Italian name I can't remember entirely. I forget which one the Bluray has.
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She says "Matto Bani" or something like that.
 
Fuzball said:
The "censorship" hasn't anything to do with BBFCs past rating of Moonwalker. There is one important aspect you haven't considered.

The dvds were produced (and authored) individually for each region/market, while the bluray has been authored & produced for a worldwide release- hence only one (international) master was created. (the bd discs have no regional lock, btw)
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Well in order to be sold in the UK, the BBFC has to pass it whether the DVD or the bluray were authored for worldwide sale or not. The BBFC could have given it a more restrictive certificate in 2005, and if so would be a clear indication that society has changed in what it feels is acceptable content (in the very least in the UK). The point I've made is that the BBFC's attitude towards the film has been consistent throughout the years.
 
Electro;4292008 said:
I think it's Mantovani :D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantovani
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According to the subtitles on my DVD, it is Mantovani. Here’s a screenshot. :)

fEYwO41.png
 
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Electro said:
I think it's Mantovani :D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantovani

That was the original version, which makes much more sense for an old lady, especially as the kid goes "Ma.. Ma..".

Never seen the Prince version.
So that's next to the "a Prince T-Shirt?!" shortly before, in the outro of "Badder"?
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A shame Speed Demons first few seconds weren't included on the VISON dvd boxset
 
I can’t believe that he was never interviewed about these things. Like, why Mantovani? :D

I mean, looking at the Wikipedia page now, I understand why, but back then they should have asked way more questions. It’s really disappointing to read the interview questions that “journalists” came up with.
 
ScreenOrigami;4292009 said:
According to the subtitles on my DVD, it is Mantovani. Here’s a screenshot. :)

fEYwO41.png
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This is such a great moment :D, I love it...

I wonder if the cut scenes were ever broadcast in HD so that theoretically it could be put together uncut again (of course the movie shouldn't be uploaded).
 
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ScreenOrigami;4292018 said:
I can’t believe that he was never interviewed about these things. Like, why Mantovani? :D

I mean, looking at the Wikipedia page now, I understand why, but back then they should have asked way more questions. It’s really disappointing to read the interview questions that “journalists” came up with.
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Same old story. "Mighty" music critics didn't want to accept him into the pop/rock canon (established by themselves), so initially they simply ignored him. Then when he became unavoidable the official narrative tried to explain away his achievements as just "inferior commercial success", appealing only to the "masses", that he's just a crafted song and dance man but not an artist, etc. It was a sneaky way to undermine his importance to deal only with frivolous, uninteresting, gossipy topics concerning him, always in a condescending manner (which didn't stop short of directly attacking his personality either, often under a disguise of a critique).

Like you warned us about the "separate-the-art-from-the-artist" scheme in the other thread, it's a similar shifty method: when they couldn't stop the public from liking MJ, they tried to at least make them feel insecure and "second-rate" about it.

- Some "critiques" of Thriller suggested that it was only successful because of the accompanying video. This narrative doesn't even work chronologically, but never mind, plus it conveniently leaves out the fact that MTV refused to show MVs of black artists on rotation at the time. But then it would also become obvious that it was exactly the already achieved success of the album that gave MJ's side the ammunition to pressure MTV at all. Which step, BTW, eventually lead to breaking racial barriers in the protocol, and there's no way a cultural impact like this wouldn't be mentioned (and praised) in case of anyone else, but with MJ it's often overlooked (I talk about the "official" narrative here).

- Obviously MJ can only make MVs with the "ulterior" motive of boosting the success of his albums, and MVs are a cheap way of entertainment anyway. When Pink Floyd does it, it's art.

- There's a great deal of articles trying to "solve the secret" of MJ's success, like it was something irrational that needs an explanation.

- When Bad came out the majority of "critiques" tried to analyze his personality (basically suggesting that he must be mad), instead of dealing with the music.

And the list could go on and on. Some of these things are small in itself, but when added and continuously repeated, all leads to the same direction with cumulative effect.

Sadly, this partly worked. There are "two MJs" out there: the one-dimensional caricature created for haters and superficial opinions, and the real, very complex one explored by those who actually do listen to him. It's interesting to witness when new fans get completely shocked while realizing that they were sold a completely fake persona before, that has literally nothing to do with the real one (the false narrative isn't just about the allegation, but everything concerning MJ).
 
ozemouze;4292056 said:
Same old story. "Mighty" music critics didn't want to accept him into the pop/rock canon (established by themselves), so initially they simply ignored him. Then when he became unavoidable the official narrative tried to explain away his achievements as just "inferior commercial success", appealing only to the "masses", that he's just a crafted song and dance man but not an artist, etc. It was a sneaky way to undermine his importance to deal only with frivolous, uninteresting, gossipy topics concerning him, always in a condescending manner (which didn't stop short of directly attacking his personality either, often under a disguise of a critique).

Like you warned us about the "separate-the-art-from-the-artist" scheme in the other thread, it's a similar shifty method: when they couldn't stop the public from liking MJ, they tried to at least make them feel insecure and "second-rate" about it.

- Some "critiques" of Thriller suggested that it was only successful because of the accompanying video. This narrative doesn't even work chronologically, but never mind, plus it conveniently leaves out the fact that MTV refused to show MVs of black artists on rotation at the time. But then it would also become obvious that it was exactly the already achieved success of the album that gave MJ's side the ammunition to pressure MTV at all. Which step, BTW, eventually lead to breaking racial barriers in the protocol, and there's no way a cultural impact like this wouldn't be mentioned (and praised) in case of anyone else, but with MJ it's often overlooked (I talk about the "official" narrative here).

- Obviously MJ can only make MVs with the "ulterior" motive of boosting the success of his albums, and MVs are a cheap way of entertainment anyway. When Pink Floyd does it, it's art.

- There's a great deal of articles trying to "solve the secret" of MJ's success, like it was something irrational that needs an explanation.

- When Bad came out the majority of "critiques" tried to analyze his personality (basically suggesting that he must be mad), instead of dealing with the music.

And the list could go on and on. Some of these things are small in itself, but when added and continuously repeated, all leads to the same direction with cumulative effect.

Sadly, this partly worked. There are "two MJs" out there: the one-dimensional caricature created for haters and superficial opinions, and the real, very complex one explored by those who actually do listen to him. It's interesting to witness when new fans get completely shocked while realizing that they were sold a completely fake persona before, that has literally nothing to do with the real one (the false narrative isn't just about the allegation, but everything concerning MJ).
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I couldn’t agree with you more. From my personal experience with my group of friends back in the day when Bad came out, it just wasn’t “cool” to listen to MJ. The musicians among them acknowledged that the reviews he got weren’t fair, but at the end of the day it wasn’t much of a topic in our conversations either. And while we all went to see Prince’s movie, I didn’t even know Moonwalker was shown in theaters. The irony is, I wasn’t even into Prince, but when your group goes to see a movie, you just tag along. :lmao:

The last few months were a wild ride for me, peeling away all those layers of misinformation to get to the real MJ, but it was one of the most rewarding experiences I’ve ever had. It’s a treasure.

And I’ve had conversations with friends, where I’d point out some of the misinformation, and like you said, each separate bit looks insignificant, but it’s the sum of all this that creates the distorted picture. Right now, knowing the real MJ feels like being part of some kind of secret society. :fear:

I could ramble on about this for hours, like, how on earth did Oprah manage to botch that once in a lifetime chance to do the first interview with MJ in 14 years by asking him the most ridiculous questions in the rudest way possible, but all of this has of course been discussed before.

I just have to say, I’m completely obsessed with Moonwalker now. It’s so unique and rich and colorful, and actually says so much more about MJ than any of the “interviews” he was subjected to.
 
I like the moonwalker. i said i would do a review on it one day. everybody has their own opinions about this movie. some people like it. some people don't. i see it more as a kid movie more then anything. which is okay because Michael was very childlike also he loved kids and most people saw this movie when their kids themselves.
 
ScreenOrigami;4292062 said:
I couldn’t agree with you more. From my personal experience with my group of friends back in the day when Bad came out, it just wasn’t “cool” to listen to MJ. The musicians among them acknowledged that the reviews he got weren’t fair, but at the end of the day it wasn’t much of a topic in our conversations either. And while we all went to see Prince’s movie, I didn’t even know Moonwalker was shown in theaters. The irony is, I wasn’t even into Prince, but when your group goes to see a movie, you just tag along. :lmao:

The last few months were a wild ride for me, peeling away all those layers of misinformation to get to the real MJ, but it was one of the most rewarding experiences I’ve ever had. It’s a treasure.

And I’ve had conversations with friends, where I’d point out some of the misinformation, and like you said, each separate bit looks insignificant, but it’s the sum of all this that creates the distorted picture. Right now, knowing the real MJ feels like being part of some kind of secret society. :fear:

I could ramble on about this for hours, like, how on earth did Oprah manage to botch that once in a lifetime chance to do the first interview with MJ in 14 years by asking him the most ridiculous questions in the rudest way possible, but all of this has of course been discussed before.

I just have to say, I’m completely obsessed with Moonwalker now. It’s so unique and rich and colorful, and actually says so much more about MJ than any of the “interviews” he was subjected to.
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:lmao: But yes... It only added to this feeling when they tried to cancel him last year.

And how actually did they think it could be achieved anyway? Will there be a music police raiding the homes of the public, confiscating MJ material? :D Sure, I understand that a call for ban like this can have serious effects, but it was still a bit ridiculous. Radios banning him can't stop the public from listening to him on their own if they want to (especially nowadays when the music scene is much more independent from radios and record companies). The most this move can achieve is to collect and force all kinds of MJ fans into a sort of counterculture...

I watched Moonwalker with a group of very varied taste individuals. They liked it overall, apart from MJ's charisma mainly thanks to the big screen experience I guess. What could result in a WTF-moment watching on VHS was mesmerizing on the big scream (e.g. there was a mini-suspense moment during the intro of Smooth Criminal, you could feel the audience holding their breath until the music started). BTW the whole audience was very varied, including punks (their Mohawks sometimes bumped into the screen, disturbing the view). They moonwalked out of the hall after the movie ended, a scene that would have surely confused the above mentioned music critics who like to put musical genres and individuals into separate boxes. :D

I guess you're aware that there's a Making of Moonwalker featurette available in various potato qualities. It's a very interesting watch, especially when you can catch MJ giving instruction in the background, it gives away a lot about his creative mind I think (don't mind the screenwriter though, he talks nonsense).

Oh and BTW I think Smooth Criminal deserves a documentary on its own.
 
ozemouze;4292074 said:
:lmao: But yes... It only added to this feeling when they tried to cancel him last year.

And how actually did they think it could be achieved anyway? Will there be a music police raiding the homes of the public, confiscating MJ material? :D Sure, I understand that a call for ban like this can have serious effects, but it was still a bit ridiculous. Radios banning him can't stop the public from listening to him on their own if they want to (especially nowadays when the music scene is much more independent from radios and record companies). The most this move can achieve is to collect and force all kinds of MJ fans into a sort of counterculture...

I watched Moonwalker with a group of very varied taste individuals. They liked it overall, apart from MJ's charisma mainly thanks to the big screen experience I guess. What could result in a WTF-moment watching on VHS was mesmerizing on the big scream (e.g. there was a mini-suspense moment during the intro of Smooth Criminal, you could feel the audience holding their breath until the music started). BTW the whole audience was very varied, including punks (their Mohawks sometimes bumped into the screen, disturbing the view). They moonwalked out of the hall after the movie ended, a scene that would have surely confused the above mentioned music critics who like to put musical genres and individuals into separate boxes. :D

I guess you're aware that there's a Making of Moonwalker featurette available in various potato qualities. It's a very interesting watch, especially when you can catch MJ giving instruction in the background, it gives away a lot about his creative mind I think (don't mind the screenwriter though, he talks nonsense).

Oh and BTW I think Smooth Criminal deserves a documentary on its own.
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That would be a mighty big counterculture. :D
First thing I did after LN was to buy a couple of MJ shirts, and I felt like a rebel strutting around town sporting those. :rofl:

I’m really bummed I missed Moonwalker in theaters back then. Hope they’ll bring it back to the theaters one day for some anniversary.

Is it true that Frank was fired over the mismanagement of the movie release? Or is that just another rumor? Frank didn’t get to finish his book, unfortunately. I would have loved to read it. :(

And yes, I have the Making of Moonwalker. Actually, my copy looks pretty ok at around 1 GB. Is it allowed to share here, or does this fall under “official release”? I can upload it, if anyone wants it. :)
 
ScreenOrigami;4292079 said:
That would be a mighty big counterculture. :D
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Yeah. :rofl: But that's the strange case with MJ, on one hand he's this very famous megasuperstar known all over the world, but on the other hand he was never part of the powerful show business inner circle or a real media darling. It's confusing. :D

ScreenOrigami;4292085 said:
I looked around and Making of Moonwalker has been shared here before, so I reuploaded it in this old thread:
https://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/128231-1988-Making-of-Moonwalker-(1-02-GB)-(DVD)?p=4292084&viewfull=1#post4292084
Hope that’s ok. :)
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I'm quite sure it's OK, as it was never released officially (another missed opportunity). Thanks for reuploading! It's indeed watchable quality, but I think all encodes comes from the very same VHS recording. :D

Sorry, I don't know anything about the firing of Frank, or if there was any mismanagement around the movie release. I'm just happy it was shown in Europe, as I think it works best on the big screen. This theory is proven by fans who watched it on home video and didn't particularly like it (apart from it being 90 minutes of constant MJ), and non-fans who watched it with me at the cinema and wanted a rewatch immediately. :D (So yeah, I admit I rewatched the film several times, my only excuse that non-fans did it too).

BTW I checked the wiki article and for once I liked how they categorized Moonwalker as "experimental anthology musical film", it sounds cool.
 
the moonwalker was only show in theaters in Europe back in the day. everybody else who wasn't from Europe got the VHS. why? i'm not sure. i heard that they did show it on MTV back in the day. when? i'm not sure either.
 
ozemouze;4292097 said:
Yeah. :rofl: But that's the strange case with MJ, on one hand he's this very famous megasuperstar known all over the world, but on the other hand he was never part of the powerful show business inner circle or a real media darling. It's confusing. :D
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And that’s putting it mildly. :D

ozemouze;4292097 said:
Sorry, I don't know anything about the firing of Frank, or if there was any mismanagement around the movie release.
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The version I heard is that Frank was let go because he somehow was responsible for Moonwalker not being shown in US theaters. I have no idea if there’s any truth to it and I have no sources either way. But if this was the case, it’s understandable, after all the work (and money) that went into making the movie. Again, just what I’ve heard, I don’t mean to put Frank in a bad light.

Maybe someone else here has some information and sources. :)

ozemouze;4292097 said:
I'm just happy it was shown in Europe, as I think it works best on the big screen. This theory is proven by fans who watched it on home video and didn't particularly like it (apart from it being 90 minutes of constant MJ), and non-fans who watched it with me at the cinema and wanted a rewatch immediately. :D (So yeah, I admit I rewatched the film several times, my only excuse that non-fans did it too).
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Yep, this movie screams for the big screen and popcorn. :D

And yeah, I’ve rewatched it a couple of times already (on the laptop, but with good headphones, for immersion). I find it extremely entertaining. There are sooo many little details to discover. :D

ozemouze;4292097 said:
BTW I checked the wiki article and for once I liked how they categorized Moonwalker as "experimental anthology musical film", it sounds cool.
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That’s a fitting description indeed! :)
 
ScreenOrigami and ozemouze - I am loving your work lately!
 
ScreenOrigami;4292109 said:
The version I heard is that Frank was let go because he somehow was responsible for Moonwalker not being shown in US theaters. I have no idea if there’s any truth to it and I have no sources either way. But if this was the case, it’s understandable, after all the work (and money) that went into making the movie. Again, just what I’ve heard, I don’t mean to put Frank in a bad light.
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Hmm, I always thought it was just a business decision, as marketing strategies sometimes differ to great extent depending on countries/continents, plus not every production gets theatrical release (and as Moonwalker isn't exactly a "film" in a traditional sense :D, a different kind of distribution in the US seemed acceptable). It's a pity if it was because of mismanagement, but how could it happen? It would be indeed good to know more about it (as there's more than enough drama around MJ, I avoided dwelling into personnel problems too, so I know nothing about these).

ScreenOrigami;4292109 said:
And yeah, I’ve rewatched it a couple of times already (on the laptop, but with good headphones, for immersion). I find it extremely entertaining. There are sooo many little details to discover. :D
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It is, and it's extremely funny in a subtle way. :D Or, I just watched it too many times, to the point I find every little details amusing. :lmao:

It creates an exciting, friendly magical world it feels good to delve into - escapism at its best. Plus it has great cinematography and sound - it's not just the music that sounds good, but the noises as well (e.g. while preparing to go on stage before Come Together). So it's a complex, lively and feel-good experience that also leaves you with a strong sensory impression (of lights, fog, small noises, silence, rhythms, colours - I don't know if it was planned, but the film has a very definable colour palette).

Although I miss MJ acting in traditional films, I'm glad the one he did is special.
 
ozemouze;4292125 said:
Hmm, I always thought it was just a business decision, as marketing strategies sometimes differ to great extent depending on countries/continents, plus not every production gets theatrical release (and as Moonwalker isn't exactly a "film" in a traditional sense :D, a different kind of distribution in the US seemed acceptable). It's a pity if it was because of mismanagement, but how could it happen? It would be indeed good to know more about it (as there's more than enough drama around MJ, I avoided dwelling into personnel problems too, so I know nothing about these).
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Frank explains it towards the end of Making Of Moonwalker. From what I understood, first the financial negotiations were complicated and then there was a lack of trust that deadlines would be met, and that’s why the deal fell through. I assume that was a really disappointing situation for MJ – of course he wanted his movie out in the theaters. Direct-to-VHS releases had that stigma of being perceived as not good enough for a theatrical release, bottom of the barrel so to speak. So if Frank was responsible for the release to turn out that way, I can see why his services were no longer needed. ;)

ozemouze;4292125 said:
It is, and it's extremely funny in a subtle way. :D Or, I just watched it too many times, to the point I find every little details amusing. :lmao:

It creates an exciting, friendly magical world it feels good to delve into - escapism at its best. Plus it has great cinematography and sound - it's not just the music that sounds good, but the noises as well (e.g. while preparing to go on stage before Come Together). So it's a complex, lively and feel-good experience that also leaves you with a strong sensory impression (of lights, fog, small noises, silence, rhythms, colours - I don't know if it was planned, but the film has a very definable colour palette).
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Yeah, as with anything MJ, if you haven’t listened to it with good headphones, you’ve been missing out. :listeningtomusic

And the colors are definitely one of the many details to enjoy! I’m sure that every little bit of this was planned. :)

ozemouze;4292125 said:
Although I miss MJ acting in traditional films, I'm glad the one he did is special.
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… and yet it’s one of his least talked about works. I feel like starting a campaign for Moonwalker. :laughing:
 
I vaguely remember the story like this, that Frank Dileo was replaced as part of that big new multi-album deal that Michael signed with Epic/Sony before Dangerous. From then on I think he had a whole new management team that was maybe more in control of the label. Can someone digg out that story properly?
 
ScreenOrigami;4292131 said:
Frank explains it towards the end of Making Of Moonwalker. From what I understood, first the financial negotiations were complicated and then there was a lack of trust that deadlines would be met, and that’s why the deal fell through. I assume that was a really disappointing situation for MJ – of course he wanted his movie out in the theaters. Direct-to-VHS releases had that stigma of being perceived as not good enough for a theatrical release, bottom of the barrel so to speak. So if Frank was responsible for the release to turn out that way, I can see why his services were no longer needed. ;)
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Yeah, but Frank is still there to talk about it :), so who knows.

Electro;4292132 said:
I vaguely remember the story like this, that Frank Dileo was replaced as part of that big new multi-album deal that Michael signed with Epic/Sony before Dangerous. From then on I think he had a whole new management team that was maybe more in control of the label. Can someone digg out that story properly?
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Hmm, this could be, that Frank was let go due to a "structural change". :/

ScreenOrigami;4292131 said:
… and yet it’s one of his least talked about works. I feel like starting a campaign for Moonwalker. :laughing:
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Yeah. :punk: Let's pester the Estate about it. :laughing: :tongue:

I think that's because people assume it's a sort of "extended MV" and therefore don't treat it as a film. I'm not entirely sure whether it's a film either :D, but it's definitely unique and remarkable.
 
Electro;4292132 said:
I vaguely remember the story like this, that Frank Dileo was replaced as part of that big new multi-album deal that Michael signed with Epic/Sony before Dangerous. From then on I think he had a whole new management team that was maybe more in control of the label. Can someone digg out that story properly?
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ozemouze;4292135 said:
Hmm, this could be, that Frank was let go due to a "structural change". :/
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That sounds plausible. Two years leading up to the new contract is a long time, though. Frank was let go shortly after the Bad tour ended in early 1989, and the Sony deal was signed in early 1991. So, if it happened that way, it was a situation of MJ basically wanting to make a cut after the tour and start with a new team, and this approach led to the new Sony deal. Could be. Maybe he just thought Frank wasn’t the perfect partner going forward, and that again may well have something to do with how the Moonwalker situation unfolded. You know what, 2 more hours and we’ll have found the Unified Theory that Stephen Hawking had been looking for. :D

ozemouze;4292135 said:
Yeah. :punk: Let's pester the Estate about it. :laughing: :tongue:
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They’ll be happy to hear from us. Thanks for the HIStory 25 merch, guys, but now let’s have a conversation about Moonwalker. :woohoo:

ozemouze;4292135 said:
I think that's because people assume it's a sort of "extended MV" and therefore don't treat it as a film. I'm not entirely sure whether it's a film either :D, but it's definitely unique and remarkable.
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It’s an experimental anthology musical film. :clap:
 
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