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HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

I've made enough rant-infused posts about this topic, so I'll just offer my two cents:

The purpose of a recording artist's estate is not to pander to said artist's fan base, but to preserve their legacy and right any existing wrongs. Objectively, they've done exactly that: This Is It, Immortal, One, and the forthcoming MJ jukebox musical have presented an opportunity for new generations to discover Michael's music; his catalog (led by Thriller and Bad, respectively) accumulated 1.8 billion streams worldwide, a 67% increase from the previous year; he's hovered in the top 100 most-streamed artists globally on Spotify for a year and a half; he ranked atop Forbes' list of highest-earning deceased artists nine out of the last ten years; and the entirety of the mountainous debt left behind at the time of his death (between $400 million and $500 million) has been paid off. This cannot be considered anything other than a monumental success.

Now, does that mean fan complaints are unwarranted? No, not always. The Estate has made several fundamentally shameful mistakes over the years, and it's human nature (no pun intended) to have a desire for unseen and/or unheard material.

However, the idea that the Estate is in any way damaging Michael's legacy by withholding material is asinine. Very rarely, if ever, do posthumous projects ever reach the same level of public acceptance and recognition as material released during the artist's lifetime. Ten years from now, Michael, Originals, and Lioness: Hidden Treasures will be hidden treasures, whereas Thriller, Purple Rain, and Back in Black will continue to influence the masses. Of course, this doesn't justify complete radio silence, but to argue that choosing against reissuing this album or not releasing that concert will in any way impair one of the most steadfast careers in music history is absolutely ridiculous.
 
I don't think anyone has said not releasing anything is damaging his legacy? It's more ignoring aspects of his career and not celebrating them because it won't make the estate lots of money (I think that they would make money from a dangerous release, but that seems to be the argument being made here). Which, to be clear, as a fan I do not care about at all, nor should I. The Estate make plenty of money from Michael's back catalogue alone, and it would not take much effort or money from them to celebrate MJ's more obscure work. (Not that I think dangerous is obscure, but some seem to so thought I'd put that in there). Not saying that I don't understand why nothing has come out recently, but the same people making this argument right now would still be making the same argument had LN never happened, and some indeed were before it did, haha.
 
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^^

I've absolutely seen the argument made, both in the past and in this very thread.

"The quality of the Vision box set is damaging his legacy!"
"The Cascio tracks are damaging his legacy!"
"The remixes on Bad 25 are damaging his legacy!"
"The quality of the Wembley concert is damaging his legacy!"
"The remixes on Xscape are damaging his legacy!"
"The Off the Wall documentary is damaging his legacy!"
"Choosing not to release Dangerous 25 or HIStory 25 is damaging his legacy!"

All of these things are worthy of criticism, but Michael's legacy has endured just fine.

I completely agree that the Estate shouldn't ignore his post-1980s work. I don't think they deserve the same level of complexity as Bad 25 due to its commercial disappointment, but I certainly think it's worth highlighting and celebrating Dangerous and HIStory to some degree. HIStory in particular would fit far better in today's climate due to its deep, personal lyricism, which is far more prevalent and appreciated now than it was in 1995.
 
So it seems like the idea of resuming albums anniversary celebrations has gone and giving the fans albums like "Scream" is better !
 
Anna said:
Why would we make excuses for the Estate? It's not like they have a pristine track record and deserve to be defended at all costs. You're just dismissing perfectly valid reasoning for not doing a re-release, especially now after LN.
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I've honestly no idea why the same core group trot out that excuse every time. But I haven't dismissed the point, I've argued it. And I'll probably keep doing it in every thread it's repeated in.

I didn't see anyone cite LN here, I must have missed that. I do agree with that side of things and that isn't unique to Dangerous or HIStory or anything else - it applies to all of Michael's work so arguing that no one cares about Dangerous is kind of a moot point. A release is going to be difficult in this climate. Not impossible, but timing and everything is important there. Of course there's nothing to stop the Estate distributing material directly to fans through a digital platform, without herald or noise - something that would cost them nothing, create no negative publicity, and generate income. But they wouldn't do that either obviously.

JichaelMackson said:
I have never seen it any of those best album lists at, It's not even listed in most "best of" 1991 polls. If I come across dangerous (very rarely) in any of those lists it's usually very low down, near the bottom.
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You've never seen it on any list? The BBC shortlisted it with about 20 or 30 other albums, about a month or so ago, for their greatest albums of the 90s poll. I think Billboard had it on their top R&B albums of all time list, never mind the 90s.

Celine Dion is not Michael Jackson. Neither are the Backstreet Boys or Britney Spears or any of the ones who had massive 90's sellers. I thought this was clear, and indeed I would have thought it goes without saying, but I am in no way suggesting that sales on paper alone make an album worthy of retrospective attention.
 
ChrisC said:
You've never seen it on any list? The BBC shortlisted it with about 20 or 30 other albums, about a month or so ago, for their greatest albums of the 90s poll. I think Billboard had it on their top R&B albums of all time list, never mind the 90s.

Celine Dion is not Michael Jackson. Neither are the Backstreet Boys or Britney Spears or any of the ones who had massive 90's sellers. I thought this was clear, and indeed I would have thought it goes without saying, but I am in no way suggesting that sales on paper alone make an album worthy of retrospective attention.
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It didn't make the final cut in that poll of a month ago...
Do you have a link for the R&B list? I'm very interested to see who else is on it. That's two lists and one of them is only a list of a music subgenre.
On the music website rateyourmusic.com Dangerous is listed as the 388th best album of 1991. OTW is nr 10 for 1979, Thriller is nr 4 for 1982 and bad is nr 42 for 1987. It's just one website but you see the same pattern on other similar sites. For example the Dutch site musicmeter.nl also has a users all time top 250 both thriller and bad are on it (otw is not) and dangerous neither.
Dangerous is not on the rolling stone top 500, not on the NME top 500 etc. Michael's OTW, Thriller and Bad all are.
In a quick google search I found 2 more websites discussing the all time top 100 albums both off the wall and thriller are on them. Those sites are called "pop vortex" and "consequence of sound" I don't know how reputable those are but it's all about the pattern I'm talking about.

Either way MJ has 3 albums that are continuously listed as all time greats, that's a very good result. In fact I think it's amazing.
 
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JichaelMackson said:
It didn't make the final cut in that poll of a month ago...
Do you have a link for the R&B list? I'm very interested to see who else is on it. That's two lists and one of them is only a list of a music subgenre.
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I knew you would dismiss both those examples. It wasn't a final cut in the BBC poll, it merely wasn't voted into the top 10. Maybe it ranked #11? The point is not where it finished in the poll, the point is it was shortlisted by the BBC in a really small group of albums, among the best of the 90s practically yesterday. Impressive for an album you've never seen on such a poll.

The Billboard list indeed only includes R&B/Hip-Hop albums, but it does include the entire history of the genre rather than one decade, so I still think that's worthy of note. If it was best R&B/Hip-Hop albums of the 90s, I'd see your point. Here is the list https://www.billboard.com/charts/greatest-r-b-hip-hop-albums

We're splitting hairs here ultimately - it's on some lists, it's not on others. I can tell you something by the way, there a LOT of albums out there that were re-issued or received anniversary releases despite never appearing on any all time best lists.

I'm not denying the impact of Off the Wall Thriller and Bad - clearly stratospheric. Nor am I campaigning the Estate to release a Dangerous box set. My point is and has been, Dangerous is entirely worthy of attention despite the eclipsing seismic impact of the predecessors. And this argument that Michael Jackson (one of the most commercial artists of the 20th century) and Dangerous (one of the most commercial albums of the 20th century) is/are not commercial, is just a lazy defence for the Estate's lack of creative action on any front.
 
rhythm & blues

JichaelMackson said:
That's two lists and one of them is only a list of a music subgenre.
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Technically, R&B is the main genre. Without R&B, blues, jazz, gospel, & hip hop (all originating from black people in the USA), many of songs on the mainstream Hot 100 list throughout the decades would not exist. The only reason pop & rock became more popular because it was mostly white people doing it and people tend to buy their own race or ethnicity before another. The major labels also tended to promote the white artists more. Rolling Stones, Eric Clapton, Led Zeppelin, early Fleetwood Mac, etc. were all doing blues influenced music. The Beatles early records had a lot of remakes of R&B/soul songs. Lady Madonna is basically Fats Domino or music from New Orleans and the "wooo" came from Little Richard. George Harrison even had 2 songs dedicated to Smokey Robinson on his solo albums. Elvis was doing R&B & gospel mixed with country. Country music itself had blues & Hawaiian music as influences and country swing & bluegrass had jazz in it. The banjo is an instrument from Africa brought over by the slaves. Today hip hop is mainstream music in the US in a way R&B never was. Hip hop does not have to crossover and it doesn't need to have white artists to make it popular like jazz & blues did or The Police doing reggae influenced songs. It's already pop music.

Sub-genres of R&B would be like funk, soul jazz, New Jack Swing, electrofunk, & neo-soul.
 
ChrisC said:
I knew you would dismiss both those examples. It wasn't a final cut in the BBC poll, it merely wasn't voted into the top 10. Maybe it ranked #11? The point is not where it finished in the poll, the point is it was shortlisted by the BBC in a really small group of albums, among the best of the 90s practically yesterday. Impressive for an album you've never seen on such a poll.

The Billboard list indeed only includes R&B/Hip-Hop albums, but it does include the entire history of the genre rather than one decade, so I still think that's worthy of note. If it was best R&B/Hip-Hop albums of the 90s, I'd see your point. Here is the list https://www.billboard.com/charts/greatest-r-b-hip-hop-albums

We're splitting hairs here ultimately - it's on some lists, it's not on others. I can tell you something by the way, there a LOT of albums out there that were re-issued or received anniversary releases despite never appearing on any all time best lists.

I'm not denying the impact of Off the Wall Thriller and Bad - clearly stratospheric. Nor am I campaigning the Estate to release a Dangerous box set. My point is and has been, Dangerous is entirely worthy of attention despite the eclipsing seismic impact of the predecessors. And this argument that Michael Jackson (one of the most commercial artists of the 20th century) and Dangerous (one of the most commercial albums of the 20th century) is/are not commercial, is just a lazy defence for the Estate's lack of creative action on any front.
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Since your post got 3 likes and mine got none I declare you the winner, congratulations :-D

I can't open the link, it says I need to be a billboard pro. I can see thriller is nr 1 and OTW nr 3 though yay.
 
Why is that anyone who says that Dangerous and History anniversary editions aren't necessary is 'making excuses for the Estate?' You have the same section of fans, who make this nonsensical comment. Like why the hell would I make excuses for the Estate? They are nobody to me.
 
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It's because any pro-Estate commentary nowadays is seen as "making excuses" no matter the objectivity. I'm quickly becoming the forum's number one Estate cheerleader to some people simply because I don't think some of the discourse is fair. Never mind the fact that I've bitched about various aspects of nearly every project they've ever released *rolls eyes*.
 
Oh boy. we all have opinions about the estate. at the end of the day we all need to respect one another even we don't agree. i'm not pro-estate either but i'm not anti-estate. this need to stop. i'm pretty sure half of us are middle aged adults always arguing in every thread. it need to stop or somebody gonna have do something about it. to be honest i been less depressed since i been less on here lately.

this is site already struggling with money.
 
Nite Line said:
Why is that anyone who says that Dangerous and History anniversary editions aren't necessary is 'making excuses for the Estate?' You have the same section of fans, who make this nonsensical comment. Like why the hell would I make excuses for the Estate? They are nobody to me.
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Because any thoughtful or creative idea any fan has is slapped down immediately by the same people as "nobody would buy it" "Michael Jackson isn't commercial enough" "you're being greedy".
 
Or because these so-called "thoughtful [and] creative idea" are often rose-tinted fan suggestions that are implausible and/or a waste of resources, and calling any dismissal of these ideas as "making excuses for the Estate" is indicative of some people's refusal to accept that what we want and what the Estate can/should give us are two entirely different things.
 
You legit constantly say that fan expectations are too high and every example you give is bare minimum stuff that would take no effort lol.
 
ChrisC said:
Because any thoughtful or creative idea any fan has is slapped down immediately by the same people as "nobody would buy it" "Michael Jackson isn't commercial enough" "you're being greedy".
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Pretty much this. Any imagination goes into a fan idea for a project and it's instantly too much and the poor estate needs some backup.
 
I think as fans some of us gets our hopes up too high and when we get something we don't like we get upset. we need to stop doing that. it's okay to be hopeful but i think we are too hopeful when it come to somethings.

like I said we all have our agreements and disagreements and likes and dislikes. you can not please everyone.

just respect one another and disagree respectfully. all threads been like this lately. it's needs to stop because it's very irritating.
 
ChrisC said:
Because any thoughtful or creative idea any fan has is slapped down immediately by the same people as "nobody would buy it" "Michael Jackson isn't commercial enough" "you're being greedy".
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The estate has to release it for us not for the wider public, they need to stop thinking about MJ the mega seller, that is completely in the past and it will never return. When they release stuff like Xscape I have the feeling they think it's going to become another big album. Why waste money on all the hot shot modern producers? Just release the damn music for the fans as it was recorded. The Estate has to change their way of thinking, there are enough ways to make money out of the MJ brand but it's not gonna happen with releasing music that has been tinkered with by people who never even knew Michael.
I'm certainly not waiting for some hot producers take on "throwing your life away".

If there is one fan base in the world that deserves new music it is us. We get served shit by the media 12 months a year, new music would bring us all together again.
 
Ture but they also a business and have to make money. yeah they can release new content for fans but they will only be getting money from the fans not the general public.

Xscape remixes was really for the younger fans. they were trying to updated them to the sound at the time.

I loved the remixes and the original demos. I just think they should have put the title the remixes as remixes and originals as originals. but I guess they were trying to make money especially with the younger fans.

Michael wanted to try different genres anyway.
 
SmoothGangsta said:
You legit constantly say that fan expectations are too high and every example you give is bare minimum stuff that would take no effort lol.
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Such as? The only thing I consistently push is a new album, which would take quite a bit of effort lol.

NatureCriminal7896 said:
I think as fans some of us gets our hopes up too high and when we get something we don't like we get upset. we need to stop doing that. it's okay to be hopeful but i think we are too hopeful when it come to somethings.

like I said we all have our agreements and disagreements and likes and dislikes. you can not please everyone.

just respect one another and disagree respectfully. all threads been like this lately. it's needs to stop because it's very irritating.
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Precisely this. We as a fan base have a tendency of focusing in on the negatives rather than enjoying the positives. Sometimes that's completely justified, but sometimes it's mind-boggling and exhausting.

I don't mean to make enemies here. I love the discourse on this forum, and I apologize if I've insulted anyone or exist on anyone's sh*t list. But, just as you're all irritated with your inability to criticize the Estate and give product suggestions without backlash, some of us are irritated with our inability to complement the Estate and talk about the upside of projects without the comment section getting flooded with complaints. We should be able to do both respectfully.
 
I meant more that examples you give of stuff that fans ask for aren't actually that hard and wouldn't take much effort. Much less effort than a whole new album. Yet we are somehow still asking too much when it comes to respecting Michael when releasing music.
 
AlwaysThere said:
Precisely this. We as a fan base have a tendency of focusing in on the negatives rather than enjoying the positives. Sometimes that's completely justified, but sometimes it's mind-boggling and exhausting.

I don't mean to make enemies here. I love the discourse on this forum, and I apologize if I've insulted anyone or exist on anyone's sh*t list. But, just as you're all irritated with your inability to criticize the Estate and give product suggestions without backlash, some of us are irritated with our inability to complement the Estate and talk about the upside of projects without the comment section getting flooded with complaints. We should be able to do both respectfully.
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Ture because we can't really please everyone. there's always gonna be someone who doesn't like something.
 
ChrisC said:
Because any thoughtful or creative idea any fan has is slapped down immediately by the same people as "nobody would buy it" "Michael Jackson isn't commercial enough" "you're being greedy".
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I don't know about others but I have never said that "Michael Jackson isn't commercial enough". Xscape did really well and so did Michael, in spite of the 3 fake songs. I strongly believe that a posthumous album by MJ will still do better than many current artists' new albums.

But I do feel that certain projects such as Dangerous 25 or History 25 aren't commercial enough and I have good reasons for saying that and it doesn't mean that I am making excuses for the Estate. When you have to resort to comments like that, it shows that you haven't got anything else to say.

And when you have certain fans write "Dangerous 25" under every tweet posted by the Estate for like the past 4 years, it does come across as "being greedy".
 
Nite Line said:
I don't know about others but I have never said that "Michael Jackson isn't commercial enough". Xscape did really well and so did Michael, in spite of the 3 fake songs. I strongly believe that a posthumous album by MJ will still do better than many current artists' new albums.

But I do feel that certain projects such as Dangerous 25 or History 25 aren't commercial enough and I have good reasons for saying that and it doesn't mean that I am making excuses for the Estate. When you have to resort to comments like that, it shows that you haven't got anything else to say.

And when you have certain fans write "Dangerous 25" under every tweet posted by the Estate for like the past 4 years, it does come across as "being greedy".
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You seem to have taken this as if I aimed my comments at you. Apologies if it came across that way.

And I have plenty to say on the topic, just click my profile and read my many detailed and passionate posts on it. I reject your suggestion that I haven't got much to say.
 
I just came across a Branca quote from TiFF 2017 (or some other fan gathering) where he said there wouldn’t be a Dangerous 25, but that the Estate planned on a Dangerous 30. Maybe 2021 will be the big year we get another massive product? (This might’ve already been mentioned in this thread but it only just came to me.)
 
AlwaysThere;4297871 said:
I just came across a Branca quote from TiFF 2017 (or some other fan gathering) where he said there wouldn’t be a Dangerous 25, but that the Estate planned on a Dangerous 30. Maybe 2021 will be the big year we get another massive product? (This might’ve already been mentioned in this thread but it only just came to me.)
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Yeah I remember seeing something about this also. Would be very cool if true.
 
AlwaysThere;4297871 said:
I just came across a Branca quote from TiFF 2017 (or some other fan gathering) where he said there wouldn’t be a Dangerous 25, but that the Estate planned on a Dangerous 30. Maybe 2021 will be the big year we get another massive product? (This might’ve already been mentioned in this thread but it only just came to me.)
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Maybe. Maybe not.
 
AlwaysThere;4297871 said:
I just came across a Branca quote from TiFF 2017 (or some other fan gathering) where he said there wouldn’t be a Dangerous 25, but that the Estate planned on a Dangerous 30. Maybe 2021 will be the big year we get another massive product? (This might’ve already been mentioned in this thread but it only just came to me.)
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I think that's correct actually. - Still seems a bit odd. - T25, BAD25 and then... D30

Still if they make a release to celebrate the 30th anniversary, I'm fine with it. - Hope it gets a great doc.
 
A Dangerous 30th set can be done without even releasing too many new songs :

CD1 : Original Album
CD2 : Outtakes & Demo

1) Slave To The Rhythm
2) Serious Effect
3) Monkey Business
4) Mind Is The Magic
5) She Got It
6) Work That Body
7) For All Time
8) If You Don't Love Me
9) Do You Know Where Your Children Are
10) Someone Put Your Hand Out
11) Jam (Demo)
12) What About Us (Earth Song Demo)
13) Man In Black
14) Ghost of Another Lover

DVD 1 : Live Bucarest
DVD 2 : Documentary
A Big Booklet : pictures, lyrics, interviews etc

Radio Single : Man In Black, remixed by whoever they want.

I mean, 90% of these tracks are either already officialy released or available on Youtube for like a decade. Seems like a no brainer...
 
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