My thoughts on Living With Michael Jackson

I didn't call Joe any names though Datsy. And I never have. I just think he made a mistake. I also disagree with you that Michael doesn't suffer from emotional issues. I don't think he is mentally unsound, I just think he does have some very real emotional pain and I base that off of what Michael himself has said. You don't have to agree, but that's what I feel, because Michael himself has said so. I know Joe was only doing what he knew how, but I still think it was wrong, I know that there are other, just as affective forms of diciplin he could have used, and I do think it had a negative impact on Michael and his siblings. I'm just being honest with how I see it.
Wannabe, I want you to know that I love you very much and I do appreciate your love and respect for MJ and his work. I know you love him very much, so do I. I know that you did not call Joe names, but others have done so and it pains me to see it because while I don't agree with the method used at the time, I do understand that that was the way it was.
I just want you to stop for a moment and look at the positives that Joe did for his children, but you have to go back to the 50's and 60's and see what was happening at the time and try and understand what it was like. Joe had it very hard.
What I found ou in studying Joe and Mj was that , apart from the spankings that Mj doesn't believe in, neither do I, you will find that of all the children that Joe Jackson has, MJ is the one that is most like Joe.
I wasn't surprised to hear Mj saying it in that interview with Jessie Jackson, cause I had already seen it for myself. MJ is just like his father in every way but the beatings.:)
 
^ and emotionally scarring his kids for life lol What Im saying is, it wasnt just the physical...it was the emotional AND the physical.

I digress. lol Look I understand Joe's situation. My parents were very similar and they raised me in similar ways and I UNDERSTAND. But that doesnt erase the hurt. It really doesnt. It makes you stronger in some ways yes, but it makes you weak in a lot of ways as well. The way MJ talked about it in LWMJ...the fact tthat it still rests in him when he's 40 some years old...even WHEN he might have forgiven his father...that pain is STILL there.
 
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I also disagree with you that Michael doesn't suffer from emotional issues. I don't think he is mentally unsound, I just think he does have some very real emotional pain and I base that off of what Michael himself has said. You don't have to agree, but that's what I feel, because Michael himself has said so.
and i don't think anyone can asses these types of mental evaluations considering the extraordinary circumstances Michael grew up through, let alone knowing that so many people can't even tell a loved one is in pain until they commit suicide one day. sorry don't mean to sound so dreary but it's a striking example of how complicated these matters are.

Datsy, i don't know how you can say the following

I personally think that mJ is one of the strongest man I know and very sound in mind too. He is not suffering from any low self esteem. He is strong and is PROUD of who he is. There is nothiong wrong with him. his parents taught him well, and there was a whole lot of love cominjg from 2300 Jackson street.
when we really don't know a fifth of the details needed to make such assertions, let alone having not actually been there in the Jackson family and stepped in the shoes of little Mike, or even big Mike.

for all we know, what we perceive as Michael Jackson is just a public persona. i'm not saying it is, but you also can't be certain that it's not.
 
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Well according to michaels OWN MOUTH, the beatings caused him a lot of pain for a long time...and of course it wasnt just the physical abuse but verbal.....so to say it was exaggerated is undermining MJ's own versions of what happened.
I have never protested against Mj verbalising his pain, but I have neve got caught up into condemning Joe because Mj got pain. Everybody goes through pain in life, it is a part of what makes us strong. I do not believe anypain that Mj went through can mesure up to the pain inflicted on him by the trial, yet if Mj did not know pain in his youth, he would not have been able to withstand the worse pain ever.:)
 
I know that Joe did a lot for Michael Datsy, and I know Michael appreciates it. And he is in a lot of ways like his father. He's also in a lot of ways like his mother. And he also in a lot of ways is only like himself. Michael loves his father, I know this, and he always has. I just think that a lot of the issues he's experienced in his life have also stemmed from what his father did, or didn't, do, and again, I simply am basing this off of what Michael himself has shared with us. He's always respected his father, that much is obvious. Every time he's said anything in public which could be construed as negative, Michael has tried to make it up to Joe. Even in his interview with Oprah, when he said "I'm sorry, please don't be mad at me.", Michael obviously felt bad about having shared his feelings on the situation.

My thing is, he shouldn't HAVE to feel bad. He can't help the way he feels or how it impacted him, and I feel that so many people have ragged on Michael for so long, (I'm not saying you Datsy, you respect Michael more then most on here), but others have ragged on him for so long over expressing his feelings on this, that he's sort of been forced in to being afraid to say anything that could be seen as negative about his dad. I think that sucks. Because it's just what Michael feels inside and I just don't want to see people disregard that. All I ever see from a lot of fans is how sick they are of hearing Michael complain and whine. That's so unfair. They aren't Michael, they aren't in his shoes, and with everything he's endured in his life, I think it's downright disrepectful to say those types of things. He hardly ever complains, in fact, he tries to stay away from his own personal suffering and focus on helping the world. So I think that when he does speak about it, we should take it at face value and respect it because they are his memories, his experiences, his feelings, and nobody has any right to tell him that they are wrong.
 
I have never protested against Mj verbalising his pain, but I have neve got caught up into condemning Joe because Mj got pain. Everybody goes through pain in life, it is a part of what makes us strong. I do not believe anypain that Mj went through can mesure up to the pain inflicted on him by the trial, yet if Mj did not know pain in his youth, he would not have been able to withstand the worse pain ever.:)


^^ well comparing MJ's pains is subjective and only MJ would know what was worse for him.
Yes pain makes us stronger but it doesnt justify wrongdoing. I'm not condemning Joe but I'm not vindicating him either. What's done is done and MJ has learned to forgive him. Like i said, my father is very similar...its just how things are wired i guess. MJs strong in a lot of ways but a good majority of his life was spent wrestling with his past...and those things made him who he is OF COURSE, but I guess i find it hard to just say everything is all gravy,when i know how that pain feels like, and mines is only a fraction of what MJ went through and feels.
 
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and i don't think anyone can asses these types of mental evaluations considering the extraordinary circumstances Michael grew up through, let alone knowing that so many people can't even tell a loved one is in pain until they commit suicide one day. sorry don't mean to sound so dreary but it's a striking example of how complicated these matters are.

Datsy, i don't know how you can say the following

when we really don't know a fifth of the details needed to make such assertions, let alone having not actually been there in the Jackson family and stepped in the shoes of little Mike, or even big Mike.

for all we know, what we perceive as Michael Jackson is just a public persona. i'm not saying it is, but you also can't be certain that it's not.
I say what I see as much as any body else. You do not know Mj anymore that I do. I try to be objective. I take the family as a whole and I look at their behaviour and their interaction and I appli the knowledge and experienc I have in dealing with abused children, and believe me, living in inner london, I do have plenty experience. I do know how they behave. I do work with children who suffer from low self esteem. MJ is not one of them, in fact, quite the opposite. But I bet some of you believed Mj didn't drink or swear or read porn too.:)
 
Question: If without Joe Jackson's parenting, Michael Jackson wouldn't have become famous, would you still wish that Joe hadn't whipped his children?

I'm not saying that a lot of Michael's description of what Joe did wasn't totally unnecessary for a father to do, but I wouldn't be too sure that the Jackson 5 would've hit mainstream without Joe Jackson's overall philosophy on parenting.
 
Wannabe, I want you to know that I love you very much and I do appreciate your love and respect for MJ and his work. I know you love him very much, so do I. I know that you did not call Joe names, but others have done so and it pains me to see it because while I don't agree with the method used at the time, I do understand that that was the way it was.
I just want you to stop for a moment and look at the positives that Joe did for his children, but you have to go back to the 50's and 60's and see what was happening at the time and try and understand what it was like. Joe had it very hard.
What I found ou in studying Joe and Mj was that , apart from the spankings that Mj doesn't believe in, neither do I, you will find that of all the children that Joe Jackson has, MJ is the one that is most like Joe.
I wasn't surprised to hear Mj saying it in that interview with Jessie Jackson, cause I had already seen it for myself. MJ is just like his father in every way but the beatings.:)
Don't agree with you much Dat, but I do on this point. With respect to MJ's own view of his childhood, another person facing the same type of corporeal discipline would react somewhat differently. It really depends on the person. Some will view Joe's way of doing things as a mistake -- I doubt that he does, though. I just think that he did the best he could with what he had to deal with. I think that his ego is the size of the moon though. Having his children call him Joe -- not kwel to me. But MJ was also heavily influenced by his mother as well whose religion he initially followed.

Most of the bios that I have ever read on celebs that have had their ups and downs tend to center around their religious upbringing more than anything else. The more restrictive they were in their youth, the more boundless they became in their adulthood.

That's my take on it.
 
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^^ well comparing MJ's pains is subjective and only MJ would know what was worse for him.
Yes pain makes us stronger but it doesnt justify wrongdoing. I'm not condemning Joe but I'm not vindicating him either. What's done is done and MJ has learned to forgive him. Like i said, my father is very similar...its just how things are wired i guess. MJs strong in a lot of ways but a good majority of his life was spent wrestling with his past...and those things made him who he is OF COURSE, but I guess i find it hard to just say everything is all gravy,when i know how that pain feels like, and mines is only a fraction of what MJ went through and feels.
What do you want to vidicate Joe for? Joe raised his children the way he chose and he gave them to the world and the world ABUSED THEM, now we want to talk about vindicatijg Joe. That sounds so cheaky to me. Not very long ago black women were drowning their babies because they did not want them to live in slavery. Should we be vindicationg them too. Michael jackson is Joe Jackson's son, he did not kill him, The media and the public have done more to inflict pain on MJ than joe jackson will ever do.
 
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those hypothetical questions i think arent of much use. Cuz time doesnt stop and rewind. It is what it is. MJ is who he is because of his past...life is about taking struggles and learning from them. TONS of things would have been different. What if Joe pushed his kids in a different way? How are we to answer a question like that.

Things are what they are. But I still disagree with that way of parenting and Im glad that based on that fact alone, MJ has gained his love for children and raises his kids purposely in a loving manner.
 
^ and emotionally scarring his kids for life lol What Im saying is, it wasnt just the physical...it was the emotional AND the physical.

I digress. lol Look I understand Joe's situation. My parents were very similar and they raised me in similar ways and I UNDERSTAND. But that doesnt erase the hurt. It really doesnt. It makes you stronger in some ways yes, but it makes you weak in a lot of ways as well. The way MJ talked about it in LWMJ...the fact tthat it still rests in him when he's 40 some years old...even WHEN he might have forgiven his father...that pain is STILL there.

Right. That's what I'm saying as well. Michael forgave his father because he also understands why he did it but most importantly, he did it because he want's, I think more then anything, to connect with his father and feel loved by him, and he probably feels the only way for that to happen is if he takes the first step. But the pain is still there and it won't go away. I'm not talking so much about the physical scarring, I mean the emotional. Remember when Michael said that the reason he works SO hard is because he just wants to be accepted and loved? And remember when he broke down crying during his Oxford speech when he recalled his fathers reactions to him for putting on either a good show or a great show? Man, the reason Michael cried is because he never felt like he was good enough, I think anway, and he would only be good enough for love if he was perfect. That Alanis Morisset song "Perfect" comes to mind. Michael's suffered a lot, I think, and I just want fans to respect that, because its neglect of his feelings if we don't.
 
I say what I see as much as any body else. You do not know Mj anymore that I do.
i think you should rephrase that to "i do not know mj anymore than you do" because it sounded like you were thinking you did.

I try to be objective. I take the family as a whole and I look at their behaviour and their interaction and I appli the knowledge and experienc I have in dealing with abused children, and believe me, living in inner london, I do have plenty experience. I do know how they behave. I do work with children who suffer from low self esteem.
throw all that out of the window when it comes to Michael because he certainly wasn't brought up in anyway like your cases and has lived the most extraordinary of lives as an adult.

MJ is not one of them, in fact, quite the opposite. But I bet some of you believed Mj didn't drink or swear or read porn too.:)
i can assure you i wasn't one of them LOL because the thought was always on my mind that his public persona may certainly not be realistic.

it just makes no sense that you can be so overly confident in analysing the enigma that is Michael Jackson when you have not even been 24 hours in his presence, (i'm assuming). my point is, no one here can make such evaluations on his mental status.
 
What do you want to vidicate Joe for? Joe raised his children the way he chose and he gave them to the world and the world ABUSED THEM, now we want to talk about vindicatijg Joe. That sounds so cheaky to me. Not very long ago black women were drowning their babies because they did not want them to love in slavery. Should we be vindicationg them too. Michael jackson is Joe Jackson's son, he did not kill him, The media and the public have done more to inflict pain on MJ than joe jackson will ever do.

Whoa.

I mean vindicating...as in saying that Joe did no wrong. Joe did what he felt was doing what was right and he did what he could. And thats unfortunate and fortunate in a lot of ways but I simply DO NOT AGREE with his approach. Im not saying he killed him or anything like that but MJ suffered A LOT cuz of it, and u cant deny or downplay that. The fact that MJ still cries over it testifies to it. So no MJ isnt dead, and in exchange for tons of emotional pain hes now successful. It is what it is.
 
Question: If without Joe Jackson's parenting, Michael Jackson wouldn't have become famous, would you still wish that Joe hadn't whipped his children?

I'm not saying that a lot of Michael's description of what Joe did wasn't totally unnecessary for a father to do, but I wouldn't be too sure that the Jackson 5 would've hit mainstream without Joe Jackson's overall philosophy on parenting.

No, I still don't think it would have been a good thing. Joe helped set his children on the path towards early stardom. Another mistake, in my view, considering Michael's obvious issues with missing out on childhood. But Michael's talent is such that, I think with or without that early path, he would have eventually become a star anyway. Look at all the stars out there who didn't hit fame until they were in their 20s, yet all of them have only the smallest fraction of Michael's talent.
 
i think you should rephrase that to "i do not know mj anymore than you do" because it sounded like you were thinking you did.


throw all that out of the window when it comes to Michael because he certainly wasn't brought up in anyway like your cases and has lived the most extraordinary of lives as an adult.


i can assure you i wasn't one of them LOL because the thought was always on my mind that his public persona may certainly not be realistic.

it just makes no sense that you can be so overly confident in analysing the enigma that is Michael Jackson when you have not even been 24 hours in his presence, (i'm assuming). my point is, no one here can make such evaluations on his mental status.

Right, exatly. You're speaking a lot of sense. Michael has led a life unlike any other and I choose to take his word at face value, that's all. Because why would I actually listen to someone else about how Michael feels over what Michael himself says he feels? Makes no sense to me.
 
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No, I still don't think it would have been a good thing. Joe helped set his children on the path towards early stardom. Another mistake, in my view, considering Michael's obvious issues with missing out on childhood. But Michael's talent is such that, I think with or without that early path, he would have eventually become a star anyway. Look at all the stars out there who didn't hit fame until they were in their 20s, yet all of them have only the smallest fraction of Michael's talent.

That's true, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'd pursue it. You have to consider that there are many people out there who aren't famous, and have incredible talent. But I do agree that a favorable outcome doesn't justify an act.
 
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Whoa.

I mean vindicating...as in saying that Joe did no wrong. Joe did what he felt was doing what was right and he did what he could. And thats unfortunate and fortunate in a lot of ways but I simply DO NOT AGREE with his approach. Im not saying he killed him or anything like that but MJ suffered A LOT cuz of it, and u cant deny or downplay that. The fact that MJ still cries over it testifies to it. So no MJ isnt dead, and in exchange for tons of emotional pain hes now successful. It is what it is.

Right. Exactly.
 
That's true, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'd pursue it. You have to consider that there are many people out there who aren't famous, and have incredible talent. But I do agree that a favorable outcome doesn't justify an act.


and thats why hypothetical questions are of no use to this discussion lol...there are so many ways things could go. thats life.
 
No, I still don't think it would have been a good thing. Joe helped set his children on the path towards early stardom. Another mistake, in my view, considering Michael's obvious issues with missing out on childhood. But Michael's talent is such that, I think with or without that early path, he would have eventually become a star anyway. Look at all the stars out there who didn't hit fame until they were in their 20s, yet all of them have only the smallest fraction of Michael's talent.
What would have been the alternative in gary indiana in the early 60's.
Maybe I should list some for you. Abject poverty.
Welfare, racism, steel mills, gangland warfare, lynching, inprisonment in state prison or probably an early death.

When you are black and proud you would rather beat your children yourself than have a redneck cop lay a finger on them if Joe didn't whoop their ass, the redneck would have done it for him. Thanks joe.:)
 
Ok this is a heated topic cause of you know who ;) but dispite all his B.S i still think its a very good documentry about MJ sure some secens are abit to personal for him but people want to know the man behind the Music mayby thats why he done it in the first place

Bull crap he did it to bring Michael Jackson down . Why is this even brought up again who the hec wants to remember back then. Its down and over with and all i care is that Michael has got threw all the hell. So lets move on. Just to heart breaking.
 
That's true, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'd pursue it. You have to consider that there are many people out there who aren't famous, and have incredible talent. But I do agree that a favorable outcome doesn't justify an act.

That's true. But Michael has always seemed drawn towards show businesss to me. When he was 5, he wanted to sing with his brothers, and his dad wouldn't let him because he thought he was too young. It's documented that when asked in school what he wanted to be when he grew up, Michael said he wanted to be a famous singer. I think it was something Michael was drawn towards, much like many famous artists who simply want to be in music from a young age, but aren't pushed towards it or conditioned in to it. I think he would have become famous with or without his father setting them on that path and driving them towards perfection. They got out of Gary because of Michael's ability to sing and dance. There were so many groups coming from Indiana who had everything the Jackson's did... except Michael. Michael was the factor that got them signed. He's special.
 
Well my mother grew up in the 60s and didnt get beat excessively (only when she did bad lol)...and wasnt emotionally/ verbally abused...and turned out fine.

Back then rather u got beat at home or not, if u were black u'd get messed up. White rednecks wasnt gonna stop and say "does ur pop beat u at home?No? ok i'll let u go" Thattts not how it worked.
 
What would have been the alternative in gary indiana in the early 60's.
Maybe I should list some for you. Abject poverty.
Welfare, racism, steel mills, gangland warfare, lynching, inprisonment in state prison or probably an early death.

When you are black and proud you would rather beat your children yourself than have a redneck cop lay a finger on them if Joe didn't whoop their ass, the redneck would have done it for him. Thanks joe.:)

That's all speculation Datsymay. How many celebritys grew up in that kind of enviornment and still made it big without having their parent's driving them towards it. A lot, I reckon. There are a lot of issues Michael has dealt with later in life which I don't think he would have if his father had just shown him a little more love, openly I mean. Joe could have shown the kids right through example, not through physical force. He scared them in to coming home early and obeying him, he didn't teach them or show them it was the right thing to do. He could have though. Children DO listen, if you take the time with them.
 
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What would have been the alternative in gary indiana in the early 60's.
Maybe I should list some for you. Abject poverty.
Welfare, racism, steel mills, gangland warfare, lynching, inprisonment in state prison or probably an early death.

When you are black and proud you would rather beat your children yourself than have a redneck cop lay a finger on them if Joe didn't whoop their ass, the redneck would have done it for him. Thanks joe.:)

oh i cant believe that ur actually thanking joe for beating up his children! i mean, where's the good in that?!

do u mean that if he did not, they wud have ended far worse? but u have to remember that the jackson kids, were no ordinary kids. They werent exposed to the evils u rattled off the way ordinary black kids were bec. even back then, they have this celebrity status which restricts their movement and socializing activities!
 
I guess the conclusion is this: When times are rough, beat your kids.

I dont think so.
 
What would have been the alternative in gary indiana in the early 60's.
Maybe I should list some for you. Abject poverty.
Welfare, racism, steel mills, gangland warfare, lynching, inprisonment in state prison or probably an early death.

When you are black and proud you would rather beat your children yourself than have a redneck cop lay a finger on them if Joe didn't whoop their ass, the redneck would have done it for him. Thanks joe.:)
Okay. Gary ani't THAT bad. And Dat, let black folk speak for themselves.

Gary is ecomonically depressed. I have first hand knowledge of that for sure.

It is that way because the steel industry is not what it used to be and because of the politics in the State of Indiana. Peeps who live in the Lake County area generally commute to Chicago to work if they can -- just like the peeps in South Bend, Ft. Wayne and other parts of NW Indiana.

But Black folk don't beat their children because it's better than some racist cop doing it. That's like WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY over the line here.

Black folk back in the day spanked, whooped, beat -- whatever you choose to call it because they were being bad azzez. That's just the way it was done. Like I said, different people react differently to that, especially today, but back in the day, it was common place and not just black folk, either.
 
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That's all speculation Datsymay. How many celebritys grew up in that kind of enviornment and still made it big without having their parent's driving them towards it. A lot, I reckon. There are a lot of issues Michael has dealt with later in life which I don't think he would have if his father had just shown him a little more love, openly I mean.
That right there is speculation too. You do not know how or when Mj started dealing with issues. I shall speculate that MJ's real issues started when he was assigned to Motown cause that was when he no longer was able to go to school and when he was working all ours. that was indeed a delicate age to be disconnected fro your peers and I have noticed that that is the only tome when MJ shows any real emotions. It was also the time when he became a real superstar and was unable to go anywhere without a body guard. Glady's knight said it all, so did Susan De passe. And so do his brothers. That was the real time when mj started showing any signs of discomfort. in other words, my speculation is that it was the sudden rise to fame and the fact that he was cut off from the real world because of that fame that caused MJ emotional trama, not the fact that he was called names at home, which Mj participated in himself or chastised:)
 
i don't think so either. joe jackson beat up his children and left michael (m not sure about the others) emotionally scarred. is that good? please let us not justify these beatings by saying that it made michael the perfectionist that he is. i think even without those corporal punishment, michael wud still turn into the huge talent that he is today. His were God-given
 
Okay. Gary ani't THAT bad. And Dat, let black folk speak for themselves.

Gary is ecomonically depressed. I have first hand knowledge of that for sure.

It is that way because the steel industry is not what it used to be and because of the politics in the State of Indiana. Peeps who live in the Lake County area generally commute to Chicago to work if they can -- just like the peeps in South Bend, Ft. Wayne and other parts of NW Indiana.

But Black folk don't beat their children because it's better than some racist cop doing it. That's like WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY over the line here.

Black folk back in the day spanked, whooped, beat -- whatever you choose to call it because they were being bad azzez. That's just the way it was done. Like I said, different people react differently to that, especially today, but back in the day, it was common place and not just black folk, either.
I'm speaking from experience Mello, I'm speaking from experience. I am black folks too.
 
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