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Lets Discuss BAD concerts footage and what may have been shot on film ?

Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

Zakk said:
it is true Michael sang live beneath the playback and it was recorded. go flying said this last year and I ain't arguing with that dude :D
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Yes he sang but not full out. Maybe he sang like in Dangerous Tour rehearsals during songs that were playback:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdzC0eoceuU

I doubt he would try to sing perfectly when he knew that the audience wouldn't hear it. :)
 
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Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

Galactus123 said:
Yes he sang but not full out. Maybe he sang like in Dangerous Tour rehearsals during songs that were playback:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdzC0eoceuU

I doubt he would try to sing perfectly when he knew that the audience wouldn't hear it. :)
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listen to the BAD live vocal preview on YouTube, he sang in full perfect pitch but a bit off as he couldn't hear himself singing live! search 'bad live vocal wembley' on YouTube!
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

Zakk said:
listen to the BAD live vocal preview on YouTube, he sang in full perfect pitch but a bit off as he couldn't hear himself singing live! search 'bad live vocal wembley' on YouTube!
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Are you talking about this?

The video says it was on the 16th but was it really? The person who uploaded this could have gotten the date wrong
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

analogue said:
Are you talking about this?

The video says it was on the 16th but was it really? The person who uploaded this could have gotten the date wrong
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it is possible it could be from the 16th as the sound truck recorded each microphone and instrument for the multitrack including the input into Michael's microphone!
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

Galactus123 said:
Yes he sang but not full out. Maybe he sang like in Dangerous Tour rehearsals during songs that were playback:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdzC0eoceuU

I doubt he would try to sing perfectly when he knew that the audience wouldn't hear it. :)
Click to expand...

Zakk said:
listen to the BAD live vocal preview on YouTube, he sang in full perfect pitch but a bit off as he couldn't hear himself singing live! search 'bad live vocal wembley' on YouTube!
Click to expand...

Zakk said:
it is possible it could be from the 16th as the sound truck recorded each microphone and instrument for the multitrack including the input into Michael's microphone!
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those clips are not from any recordings I made (not from wembley 15th or 16th). Yes, Michael's live microphone was recorded to an entirely separate track on the multitrack and entirely separately from any playback vocals. I do have a VERY high quality two track mix of Michael slive inging BAD on lhs against the playback vocals on rhs but for obvious reasons I cannot share it. FWIW, Michael was singing full out against playback and not just 'going through the motions'. I posted a lot of info here a long time ago about this subject.
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

Go Flying said:
those clips are not from any recordings I made (not from wembley 15th or 16th). Yes, Michael's live microphone was recorded to an entirely separate track on the multitrack and entirely separately from any playback vocals. I do have a VERY high quality two track mix of Michael slive inging BAD on lhs against the playback vocals on rhs but for obvious reasons I cannot share it. FWIW, Michael was singing full out against playback and not just 'going through the motions'. I posted a lot of info here a long time ago about this subject.
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Thanks for info! Interesting to know. Was he singing full out in Man in the Mirror under the playback?
 
Go Flying said:
those clips are not from any recordings I made (not from wembley 15th or 16th). Yes, Michael's live microphone was recorded to an entirely separate track on the multitrack and entirely separately from any playback vocals. I do have a VERY high quality two track mix of Michael slive inging BAD on lhs against the playback vocals on rhs but for obvious reasons I cannot share it. FWIW, Michael was singing full out against playback and not just 'going through the motions'. I posted a lot of info here a long time ago about this subject.
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Why didn't the estate use that? What the hell is wrong with them?
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

i honestly dont get what the big deal is... why the need for 1 concert only?
we know that dangerous tour bucharest was taken from a few different dangerous concerts. To me, that is a great release (besides no special features)! I dont think we are going to ever have a complete concert from 1 location on blu ray, which comes from film, with great audio as well... it is just not going to happen, the petition for wembley and the fans wanting 1 complete concert is what made bad25 what it is... However, if they can do a good job like the bucharest DVD, then why not?

EDIT: yeah i just remember bucharest has a lot of crowd shots, but thats unrelated to the problem at hand
 
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DarkZavage said:
i honestly dont get what the big deal is... why the need for 1 concert only?
we know that dangerous tour bucharest was taken from a few different dangerous concerts. To me, that is a great release (besides no special features)! I dont think we are going to ever have a complete concert from 1 location on blu ray, which comes from film, with great audio as well... it is just not going to happen, the petition for wembley and the fans wanting 1 complete concert is what made bad25 what it is... However, if they can do a good job like the bucharest DVD, then why not?

EDIT: yeah i just remember bucharest has a lot of crowd shots, but thats unrelated to the problem at hand
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We just need an Q&A wih John Branca and tell him our desires.

We need to know what they have in their vaults...
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

DarkZavage said:
i honestly dont get what the big deal is... why the need for 1 concert only?
we know that dangerous tour bucharest was taken from a few different dangerous concerts. To me, that is a great release (besides no special features)! I dont think we are going to ever have a complete concert from 1 location on blu ray, which comes from film, with great audio as well... it is just not going to happen, the petition for wembley and the fans wanting 1 complete concert is what made bad25 what it is... However, if they can do a good job like the bucharest DVD, then why not?
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I think one full concert would be better and if they want to use parts from other concert they could release 2 concerts. That is my opininon. :) But if they can edit footage from many concerts and make it look like one concert I wouldn't complain. And they shouldn't make it look like music video with too fast camera angle changes(APOM music video).
 
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Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

go flying, does michael sound good on the non-playback smooth criminal vocals? :)
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

it is my dream to hear Michael singing full out live on the BAD Tour 88/89. in my opinion his vocals have always been beautiful and for DVD's playback on a few songs is fine, but for a live CD they should've used his full out live vocals. I wonder if he sang any full out shows on the Dangerous & HIStory Tours against playback too and if it's on multitrack, Estate should release these to keep Michael's legacy alive to its full potential, and that of the greatest live entertainer the world has ever seen.

Edit: The Estate should release each show they have on Multi-Track with Michael's full out live vocals!!
 
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Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

Why did he sing full out? I would really need to see evidence for me to believe something so strange.

I mean, Michael knows exactly where he's going to come in with his live vocals in the middle of a song. Presumably he's rehearsed it that way, and on the Wembley DVD you physically see him cue someone to allow his live vocals to come in - twice.

Knowing full well it could not be heard, why would he bother? And not only that, if he was deliberately trying to deceive the audience, or at least not make it obvious he was using playback - surely his main concern would be trying to get his mouth to match his recorded vocal as closely as possible, not just singing the same song in a similar fashion.

If he did indeed do this, I can only assume it was a one off or something.

Go Flying, I understand you were there and have first hand knowledge of this so I don't mean to undermine that in any way, it's just that so unfathomable to me that Michael would do this.
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

ChrisC said:
Why did he sing full out? I would really need to see evidence for me to believe something so strange.

I mean, Michael knows exactly where he's going to come in with his live vocals in the middle of a song. Presumably he's rehearsed it that way, and on the Wembley DVD you physically see him cue someone to allow his live vocals to come in - twice.

Knowing full well it could not be heard, why would he bother? And not only that, if he was deliberately trying to deceive the audience, or at least not make it obvious he was using playback - surely his main concern would be trying to get his mouth to match his recorded vocal as closely as possible, not just singing the same song in a similar fashion.

If he did indeed do this, I can only assume it was a one off or something.

Go Flying, I understand you were there and have first hand knowledge of this so I don't mean to undermine that in any way, it's just that so unfathomable to me that Michael would do this.
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to review and tweak his vocal to each performance.
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

ChrisC said:
Why did he sing full out? I would really need to see evidence for me to believe something so strange.

I mean, Michael knows exactly where he's going to come in with his live vocals in the middle of a song. Presumably he's rehearsed it that way, and on the Wembley DVD you physically see him cue someone to allow his live vocals to come in - twice.

Knowing full well it could not be heard, why would he bother? And not only that, if he was deliberately trying to deceive the audience, or at least not make it obvious he was using playback - surely his main concern would be trying to get his mouth to match his recorded vocal as closely as possible, not just singing the same song in a similar fashion.

If he did indeed do this, I can only assume it was a one off or something.

Go Flying, I understand you were there and have first hand knowledge of this so I don't mean to undermine that in any way, it's just that so unfathomable to me that Michael would do this.
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it's not a one-off, it's all to do with the technique of mime or lip syncing. Every artist I've ever worked with sings full out when lip-syncing (typically when doing a TV performance to a pre-recorded track). It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to accurately lip sync in any other way.

The 'tightness' of the lip sync is largely an unconscious and automatic outcome when done in this way. I'd suggest that is probably impossible for a singer to achieve any sort of tight lip sync by simply moving his or her lips without actually singing.

Great artists almost embed the original performance in their consciousness and can call the original performance up years later. For example, I had the privilege of re-recording a new version of a 60's hit with the original artist who is one of the great singer/writers of the 20th c. we used the original instrument backing tracks as a guide and he sang the new vocal without listening to the original vocal. Just for curiosity I compared new vocal to original - they were almost perfectly in sync despite having been recorded nearly 20 years apart!

it's much more difficult to explain than to experience.

I don't think that MJ was ever trying to deceive the audience, rather that he was trying to give them the best possible experience. However, MJ did (surprisingly) approve some of the mixes I made that used his live vocal with a little bit of prerecorded vocal mixed in underneath the live vocal to support it. Check the mix of TWYMMF for example.

How about a little experiment...Try gently jogging for just one hour (maybe about 6 km) and then try speaking clearly while you are still jogging gently.... Not so easy is it? Imaging if you were actually dancing at the same energy level MJ was working at and having to sing!

Now try and imagine what its like to do this two or three nights in a row. Yes, of course MJ's voice was a little hoarse toward the end of a performance, especially when it was preceded by a performance the night before.
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

Thanks for that Go Flying!

I would love to hear the live vocals of songs of Michael's that we've never really heard him do live fully before - Man In The Mirror in full, Will You Be There, Stranger In Moscow etc.
 
Go Flying said:
it's not a one-off, it's all to do with the technique of mime or lip syncing. Every artist I've ever worked with sings full out when lip-syncing (typically when doing a TV performance to a pre-recorded track). It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to accurately lip sync in any other way.

The 'tightness' of the lip sync is largely an unconscious and automatic outcome when done in this way. I'd suggest that is probably impossible for a singer to achieve any sort of tight lip sync by simply moving his or her lips without actually singing.

Great artists almost embed the original performance in their consciousness and can call the original performance up years later. For example, I had the privilege of re-recording a new version of a 60's hit with the original artist who is one of the great singer/writers of the 20th c. we used the original instrument backing tracks as a guide and he sang the new vocal without listening to the original vocal. Just for curiosity I compared new vocal to original - they were almost perfectly in sync despite having been recorded nearly 20 years apart!

it's much more difficult to explain than to experience.

I don't think that MJ was ever trying to deceive the audience, rather that he was trying to give them the best possible experience. However, MJ did (surprisingly) approve some of the mixes I made that used his live vocal with a little bit of prerecorded vocal mixed in underneath the live vocal to support it. Check the mix of TWYMMF for example.

How about a little experiment...Try gently jogging for just one hour (maybe about 6 km) and then try speaking clearly while you are still jogging gently.... Not so easy is it? Imaging if you were actually dancing at the same energy level MJ was working at and having to sing!

Now try and imagine what its like to do this two or three nights in a row. Yes, of course MJ's voice was a little hoarse toward the end of a performance, especially when it was preceded by a performance the night before.
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So why didn't the estate release that version?
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

IMWhizzle said:
So why didn't the estate release that version?
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I have no idea at all.

I suspect the estate did not release those mixes because they wanted to:
a)remix everything thinking that they could do a better job lol
b) make mixing decisions that were contrary to those approved by MJ so many years ago.

Whilst any artistic judgement is obviously subjective, there are nevertheless empirical and objective reasons why the end result is badly flawed from a technical perspective.

Why are the Spike Lee doc re-edited live concert scenes not in tight sync?

why do the centre channel drums on 5.1 mixes sound like really cheap samples?

why on earth would anyone process the surround channels and add entirely innapropriate reverb?

The only possible explanation is utter incompetence and the ignorance of not knowing better that stems from sheer arrogance.

Last question for those who may want to think about these things..... BAD25 video was claimed to be sourced from MJ's personal VHS copy. All the original source materials were finally located in MJ's archives yet the estate claimed that MJ's vhs vid found on his nightstand was the only remaining video copy.
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

Thank you for your very interesting explanations, Go Flying.

Go Flying said:
The only possible explanation is utter incompetence and the ignorance of not knowing better that stems from sheer arrogance.
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I'm afraid you are right. Nobody who really cares about MJ's legacy would act in such an amateurish way. It's just for the quick money. But in the long run acting like this is destroying Michael's legacy forever.

Last question for those who may want to think about these things..... BAD25 video was claimed to be sourced from MJ's personal VHS copy. All the original source materials were finally located in MJ's archives yet the estate claimed that MJ's vhs vid found on his nightstand was the only remaining video copy.
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indeed, that's mysterious.........
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

Go Flying said:
Last question for those who may want to think about these things..... BAD25 video was claimed to be sourced from MJ's personal VHS copy. All the original source materials were finally located in MJ's archives yet the estate claimed that MJ's vhs vid found on his nightstand was the only remaining video copy.
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Wait a minute. So the Estate has the original Wembley Film Reels in their possession? And should theoretically be able to release a BluRay, along with MJs live vocals to songs we only heard in playback before?
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

thiron said:
Wait a minute. So the Estate has the original Wembley Film Reels in their possession? And should theoretically be able to release a BluRay, along with MJs live vocals to songs we only heard in playback before?
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no.... the estate have elephant eating peanuts on 70mm film negatives, haha ;) Seriously tho. tbh I believe as the estate didn't have the film reel at the time they started working on the DVD, they didn't want to waste money on restoring so decided to carry on with the restoring of the VHS copy and later in the future, release Blu-Ray holograms etc.
 
Zakk said:
no.... the estate have elephant eating peanuts on 70mm film negatives, haha ;) Seriously tho. tbh I believe as the estate didn't have the film reel at the time they started working on the DVD, they didn't want to waste money on restoring so decided to carry on with the restoring of the VHS copy and later in the future, release Blu-Ray holograms etc.
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I don't think they'll release that, unless it gets a cinema release soon
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

I think Go Flying meant the wembley Tape Master. I don't believe July 16 was recorded on film. If it was, the following reasons might explain why its missing today :
Lost
Stolen
Deteriorated
destroyed
sold
After Michael made the july 16 U-Matic - vhs transfer he probably either gave the master to a member of the crew or lady diana to cherish or thrown it out. He clearly wanted this tape to be private. So, in conclusion this is why some tape masters are not in the estates possession 25 years later.
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

Zakk said:
no.... the estate have elephant eating peanuts on 70mm film negatives, haha ;) Seriously tho. tbh I believe as the estate didn't have the film reel at the time they started working on the DVD, they didn't want to waste money on restoring so decided to carry on with the restoring of the VHS copy and later in the future, release Blu-Ray holograms etc.
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I don't think they should do holograms. They should release Bad Tour concerts on Blu-Ray/DVD and possibly in cinemas(maybe in 3D if they want) worldwide. Estate should choose the one they think is the best or release multiple concerts. Liverpool, Hamburg and Minnepolis concerts could be great choices. :)
 
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Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

Galactus123 said:
I don't think they should do holograms. They should release Bad Tour concerts on Blu-Ray/DVD and possibly in cinemas(maybe in 3D if they want) worldwide. Estate should choose the one they think is the best or release multiple concerts. Liverpool, Hamburg and Minnepolis concerts could be great choices. :)
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Wembley July 23rd I believe is on film, as shown in BAD 25, possibly one of the black mic shows too! minneapolis has the best audio from the shows you mentioned, approved by Michael for Moonwalker :)
 
Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

Zakk said:
fantastic find dude :) I'm guessing that's the same show from Minneapolis BAD25 APOM & Moonwalker MITM without the colour change :)
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This is the first of the three shows in Minneapolis, May 4th. The one from Moonwalker is probably from the 6th, last one.
 
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