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Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Final verdict

  • AEG liable

    Votes: 78 48.4%

  • AEG not liable

    Votes: 83 51.6%
  • Total voters
    161
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B__Marco said:
"Juror#27: The decision to deviate from the standard of care and to ignore his Hippocratic Oath was CM's, not AEG's."

Does "Juror#27" call it "decision", the being forced by AEG via threatening CM, being financially broken ?

Let's remind CM who is paying his salary...we want MJ's butt on stage, no matter what...
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Yes, it was still a decision even if he was being pressured. He could have just as easily decided not to give MJ propofol.

If there was pressure or a conflict of interest, then it was up to CM to choose, "Do I risk my career and freedom by violating my duty as a Dr., or do I do the right thing and refuse to break my Hippocratic Oath?" He made that decision, and I do not see that AEG's pressure was ever so great to say that it alone is what caused him to act unethically.
 
@gerryeveans

i saw the jurors post about conflict of interest and i dont agree with her statement. i agree everyone wanted mj to be healthy and fit absolutely. but when aeg starts to tell the doctor to make sure Mj shows up to rehearsals and have a meeting with the doctor and MJ where they express concerns he knows aeg are alarmed. if mj doesnt perform the shows will be cancelled and he'll lose his job and $150,000 payceck, he'll do anything to keep his job and to keep aeg happy, including pumping mj with propofol.
 
LMAT said:
The thing is, it did fall on Murray's shoulders to put his patient first...regardless of pressures from AEG, his patient, his personal financial difficulties, etc. He was the DOC here...bound by his license and Oath to make decisions with the welfare of his patient as primary focus. It was Conrad's failure, as evidenced by his 17 egregious errors outlined in his criminal trial. Regardless of his patient's life choices, and sometimes because of them, a doc MUST do what's best for his patient; doesn't matter who it is or how much money involved. And Conrad had 20 years experience in the field...he knew and disregarded his Oath anyway.
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murray was hired as a general practitioner. his first task should have been to refer mj to a specialist. murray saw mj die for each day and yet he did nothing to help him. even though murrayy wasnt hired to pump propofol into mjs system, as a general doctor he saw michael detoriate and had to get him help. he didnt. so how was he a competent and fit doctor, even as a general doctor in this context????

providing general care includes to know when you have to refer a patient to a specialist, that IS what he was HIRED for!!!

there is absolutely no point to "competence" if it is not accompanied by morality and ethics. a man is dead due to a lack of integrity.
 
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Thrill said:
@gerryeveans

i saw the jurors post about conflict of interest and i dont agree with her statement. i agree everyone wanted mj to be healthy and fit absolutely. but when aeg starts to tell the doctor to make sure Mj shows up to rehearsals and have a meeting with the doctor and MJ where they express concerns he knows aeg are alarmed. if mj doesnt perform the shows will be cancelled and he'll lose his job and $150,000 payceck, he'll do anything to keep his job and to keep aeg happy, including pumping mj with propofol.
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So, Conrad Murray only gave MJ propofol because of AEG? He wouldn't have dared do it if not for them. And he gave it to MJ in that haphazard manner also because of AEG? No wonder Murray doesn't hold himself responsible for anything. It's all because of AEG.

You know what, Thrill...my apologies, it's been a long five months, and I don't want to get into this thing again.

Peace.
 
Thrill said:
thank for answering this. to go by your example with the nanny. what if i hire the nanny and as time goes, i start to hear things that should worry me, is that nanny still competent or should i take action?? yes, she WAS competent at the beginning but she's still on my payroll and my employee when i start to hear worrying things. is she competent or not?? she's still hired by me...


during trial we did hear testimony from worried THIS IS IT members that were worried about mjs condition and told various people about it. we know that randy philips, paul congaware and even the ppl above them in the aeg hierarchy were alerted of mjs condition week(s) before mj passed. kenny suspected dr conrad murray was not good and told randy philips. we have seen the emails from Houghdal where he said Mj was detoriating for the past 8 weeks and many other emails. this was all going on during the time murray was hired by aeg and aeg execs were informed.

the jury instructions did not put a timeframe on the second question it if im correct. so during the time murray was hired by aeg, there were OBVIOUS signs that he was not fit and competent to treat mj. did you not concider this at all or did you all base your answer from the time he was hired (may 1)?

like a poster wrote before 'did aeg become negligent in allowing Murray to continue to care for MJ when it was clear to them that Michael was detoriating..???'

remember, jury instructions did not state that you had to base your answer ONLY at the time he was hired (may 1).
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You bring up good points, and we did consider Murray's competence over the entire period and whether what AEG saw was enough to conclude that he was not fit. We felt that based on what they saw and were communicated, there was not enough to say that they should have known CM was breaking his sworn duty to do no harm. The main issue for me personally that cements this is that on the June 20th meeting, everyone saw a rested, healthy looking Michael. He and CM personally reassured Phillips and Ortega that MJ was fine, that he was OK to continue forward. Then on the 23rd and 24th MJ had great rehearsals and everyone had reason to be hopeful that he would be fine from then on.
 
gerryevans said:
So, Conrad Murray only gave MJ propofol because of AEG? He wouldn't have dared do it if not for them. And he gave it to MJ in that haphazard manner also because of AEG? No wonder Murray doesn't hold himself responsible for anything. It's all because of AEG.

You know what, Thrill...my apologies, it's been a long five months, and I don't want to get into this thing again.

Peace.
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^^ good grief. i blame murray as well I DO. he's in jail for killing mj and i hold him responsible. im just confused as to why ppl cant see the conflict of interest here
 
I see we are back to going around in circles again. Now we have the juror explaining how the jury looked at the conflict issue raised by the plaintiffs and other issues and still some are saying the same thing over and over and using hindsight. This leads me to this question: Are people interested in a debate & learning about the process, or are they just here to push one conclusion which they cam to by using their OWN jury instructions and evidence?

What is this pressure from AEG that is supposed to cause Muarry'S negligence? Muarry bought prof way before his name was given to AEG by Michael. Yet we are to believe that because of the email about salary and AEG telling Muarry to bring Michael to rehearsals, Muarry decided to give Michael prof and not monitor him?
 
Juror#27 said:
You bring up good points, and we did consider Murray's competence over the entire period and whether what AEG saw was enough to conclude that he was not fit. We felt that based on what they saw and were communicated, there was not enough to say that they should have known CM was breaking his sworn duty to do no harm. The main issue for me personally that cements this is that on the June 20th meeting, everyone saw a rested, healthy looking Michael. He and CM personally reassured Phillips and Ortega that MJ was fine, that he was OK to continue forward. Then on the 23rd and 24th MJ had great rehearsals and everyone had reason to be hopeful that he would be fine from then on.
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This leads into what I was curious about. Why did you ask to see This Is It? And what did you think of the movie itself?
 
Juror#27 said:
You bring up good points, and we did consider Murray's competence over the entire period and whether what AEG saw was enough to conclude that he was not fit. We felt that based on what they saw and were communicated, there was not enough to say that they should have known CM was breaking his sworn duty to do no harm. The main issue for me personally that cements this is that on the June 20th meeting, everyone saw a rested, healthy looking Michael. He and CM personally reassured Phillips and Ortega that MJ was fine, that he was OK to continue forward. Then on the 23rd and 24th MJ had great rehearsals and everyone had reason to be hopeful that he would be fine from then on.
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THANK YOU!! thats all i wanna know. so you did concider it, murrays competence wasnt only based on AT THE TIME he was hired but actually for the entire period. some people here have said you could only answer that question based on the time he was hired (may 1).

now i know you actually had the opportunity to answer question 2 from the day he was hired till MJ passed. thats roughly 2 months. mj was detoriating since murray was hired and you doomed the doctor as competent and fit - inspite emails and meetings and testimony etc. ?
 
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gerryevans said:
This leads into what I was curious about. Why did you ask to see This Is It? And what did you think of the movie itself?
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Good question, and since she mentions how he functioned on the 24th & 25th, I can see the importance of looking at TII.
 
Gaz said:
@#Juror27

Just wanted to personally thank you for coming to my community and more so for your kind words about MJJC.

If you have any troubles being here on MJJC be sure to give me or any of my team a shout.

Thanks - Gaz
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Thanks! You have a great community here and it is my pleasure to talk with you all.

Memefan said:
Juror#27:
what did the jury think of the fact that Randy Phillips & Paul Gongaware were dropped as defendants a week before the end of testimonies?

Were you all aware that Kenny Ortega was initially one of the defendants? The Jacksons had also accused him of having a hand in MJ's death. I find it ironic that the jurors ended up liking him so much.
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Phillips and Gongaware being dropped from the suit had zero impact on us. Same with Kenny Ortega. We heard early on that he was a defendant who was also dropped from the suit, but honestly that did not factor in to our decision or deliberations at all.

I also find that a bit ironic. ;D
 
Thrill said:
THANK YOU!! thats all i wanna know. so you did concider it, murrays competence wasnt only based on AT THE TIME he was hired but actually for the entire period. some people here have said you could only answer that question based on the time he was hired (may 1).

now i know you actually had the opportunity to answer question 2 from the day he was hired till MJ passed. mj detoriating sine murray was hired and you doomed him as competent and fit.
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Reread the whole thing; I think you are twisting what she says. She is still talking about 09, and not what they learned after Muarry died. Also, the comment about what AEG saw or was communicated to them, deals with if AEG "should have known" Muarry would break his duty to do no harm. If you remember the testimony, Panish was arguing that AEG saw X & Y & Z and still did not fire muarry, so the juror is saying we looked at what AEG saw or was told while Michael was in decline, and we saw there was no way of saying AEG would know Muarry would break his oath, especially after we see he did so well on the 24th and 25th with Muarry still in the picture.
 
gerryevans said:
This leads into what I was curious about. Why did you ask to see This Is It? And what did you think of the movie itself?
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We thought it was only fitting to watch it since we had just sat there for 5 months listening to all the details about this concert series. Plus we had seen mostly the same clips over and over, so we wanted to see the whole thing in its entirety.

I enjoyed it. I had never seen MJ in concert and even if This Is It had come to L.A. I probably would not have gone to see it, but I was blown away by what they were going to be doing on stage. The concert looked like it was going to be amazing and seeing it partially coming together in the film just made the ending of everything that much more tragic.

Petrarose said:
Good question, and since she mentions how he functioned on the 24th & 25th, I can see the importance of looking at TII.
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Not that it matters much, but I'm one of the 6 male jurors.
 
Petrarose said:
Reread the whole thing; I think you are twisting what she says. She is still talking about 09, and not what they learned after Michael died.
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the evidence presented at court was from 2009. All those emails, meetings, phonecalls and stuff was sent/happened in 2009 during rehearsals so what are you saying?? all evidence of mj detoriating was presented to aeg exces in 2009.

Petrarose said:
Also, the comment about what AEG saw or was communicated to them, deals with if AEG "should have known" Muarry would break his duty to do no harm. If you remember the testimony, Panish was arguing that AEG saw X & Y & Z and still did not fire muarry, so the juror is saying we looked at what AEG saw or was told while Michael was in decline, and we saw there was no way of saying AEG would know Muarry would break his oath, especially after we see he did so well on the 24th and 25th with Muarry still in the picture.
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agree this is more question 3.
 
Thrill said:
THANK YOU!! thats all i wanna know. so you did concider it, murrays competence wasnt only based on AT THE TIME he was hired but actually for the entire period. some people here have said you could only answer that question based on the time he was hired (may 1).

now i know you actually had the opportunity to answer question 2 from the day he was hired till MJ passed. thats roughly 2 months. mj was detoriating since murray was hired and you doomed the doctor as competent and fit - inspite emails and meetings and testimony etc.
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Please read this bit again.

The main issue for me personally that cements this is that on the June 20th meeting, everyone saw a rested, healthy looking Michael. He and CM personally reassured Phillips and Ortega that MJ was fine, that he was OK to continue forward. Then on the 23rd and 24th MJ had great rehearsals and everyone had reason to be hopeful that he would be fine from then on.
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In other words everyone thought MJ was getting better and as such felt there was no need for further intervention.

Also, given that Murray was hired at the request of MJ, I don't think AEG could impose another doctor to MJ. they tried it and he was not interested.
 
Juror#27 said:
We thought it was only fitting to watch it since we had just sat there for 5 months listening to all the details about this concert series. Plus we had seen mostly the same clips over and over, so we wanted to see the whole thing in its entirety.

I enjoyed it. I had never seen MJ in concert and even if This Is It had come to L.A. I probably would not have gone to see it, but I was blown away by what they were going to be doing on stage. The concert looked like it was going to be amazing and seeing it partially coming together in the film just made the ending of everything that much more tragic.
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glad you enjoyed the movie but i hope you are aware the movie did not portray a correct picture. they've picked out the best scenes (understandable) but viewers are watching mj die. you say you thought kenny ortega was a really great guy and honest. im sure the movie doesnt containts scenes of mj skinny, shivering, rambling and wrapped up in blankets like kenny described.
 
passy001 said:
Please read this bit again.



In other words everyone thought MJ was getting better and as such felt there was no need for further intervention.
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i read that hundreds of times and i still dont understand. mj was detoriating since murray was hired. thats approx 8 weeks. MJ has TWO good days (TWO DAYS ONLY) at the end and everyone thinks he's doing amazing. fyi those two good days didnt include full-rehersals.
do you understand???


the jury had the opportunity to actually determine if murray was competent and fit for the entire timeperiod and look what they came up with.

i think im about to cry
 
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passy001 said:
In other words everyone thought MJ was getting better and as such felt there was no need for further intervention.

Also, given that Murray was hired at the request of MJ, I don't think AEG could impose another doctor to MJ. they tried it and he was not interested.
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Exactly. AEG were not Michael's parents, and as a grown man he has responsibility for his own health care. Let's not forget that AEG was accommodating Michael's wishes by hiring CM, they didn't just go find a random doctor and force him on MJ.

If after the June 20th meeting AEG had said "You know what, Michael? We know that you are saying you are fine, and we know that your own doctor says you are fine, but we really feel like we know better and so we will be removing your chosen doctor for one that we think is better", do you honestly think that would have been OK? First of all, it is not their place to choose MJ's doctor. Then they would be going directly against what MJ himself is telling them. To ask any more of AEG at that point is unreasonable.
 
Thrill said:
glad you enjoyed the movie but i hope you are aware the movie did not portray a correct picture. they've picked out the best scenes (understandable) but viewers are watching mj die. you say you thought kenny ortega was a really great guy and honest. im sure the movie doesnt containts scenes of mj skinny, shivering, rambling and wrapped up in blankets like kenny described.
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what are you talking about? KJ lawyers also checked all the footages of TII and could not find anywhere where MJ is shown poorly. in fact one of the lawyers stated that MJ looked good even when he was having a bad day. something to that effect.
 
Thrill said:
i read that hundreds of times and i still dont understand. mj was detoriating since murray was hired. thats approx 8 weeks. MJ has TWO good days (TWO DAYS ONLY) at the end ad everyone thinks he's doing amazing. fyi those two good days didnt include full-rehersals.

the jury had the opportunity to actually determine if murray was competent and fit for the entire timeperiod and look what they came up with.

i think im about to cry
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Don't cry. Just reread what the allegation is, the Jury Instructions, what juror 27 said they looked at & why.

Juror 27 sorry for calling you "she." It's a habit of calling all unknown posters she/her.
 
passy001 said:
what are you talking about? KJ lawyers also checked all the footages of TII and could not find anywhere where MJ is shown poorly. in fact one of the lawyers stated that MJ looked good even when he was having a bad day. something to that effect.
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im talking about incidents at set that wasnt filmed or not included in the movie at all. like what kenny described. thats what im talking about.

Michael rambling, trembling, obsessing, talking to God, being cold, shivering, not able to do his spins, not able to sing and dance at the same time, not being able to Eat for himself but needed assistance by kenny, being wrapped up in blankets, not showing up to rehearsals, being sent home...

but thats OKAY. Mj is detoriating. but the doctor who was HIRED BY AEG to treat michael was allegeldy fit and competent- inspite all warning signs that something was wrong.


what more do you want me to say??
 
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Thrill said:
i read that hundreds of times and i still dont understand. mj was detoriating since murray was hired. thats approx 8 weeks. MJ has TWO good days (TWO DAYS ONLY) at the end and everyone thinks he's doing amazing. fyi those two good days didnt include full-rehersals.
do you understand???

mj had 58 "bad days" and 2 good days at the end.

the jury had the opportunity to actually determine if murray was competent and fit for the entire timeperiod and look what they came up with.

i think im about to cry
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There was nothing that suggested that MJ deteriorating was the direct result of Murray's doing considering that Murray has been MJ doctor for 3 years with no history of wrong doing. there was just no single evidence that the doctor who stood to earn 150,000 per month was actually harming MJ. no reasonable person could come to that conclusion unless they knew what murray was doing to MJ in his bedroom.
 
Juror#27 said:
Exactly. AEG were not Michael's parents, and as a grown man he has responsibility for his own health care.
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it has been evident from the beginning and reading jurors statement in the press that this is what you all believed. Blame Michael for his death.
 
Thrill said:
im talking about incidents at set that wasnt filmed or not included in the movie at all. like what kenny described.
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We have said a zillion times that ALL the footage was shown to Muarry's team and they found nothing. The parts where Michael was not filmed are on the days that includes your 8 weeks and which the witnesses talked about, so the juror knows that those DAYS exist even though they are not on film. The film does not show Michel shakey after visiting Klien, Michael talking about God, Micahel shivering, but the witnesses speak of it, so the jury already know all Micahel's issues were not captured on film. However, they see him days before his death which is crucial. By the way during the 8 weeks we should not write as though each and every day Micahel was at death's door.
 
Victory22 said:
I'm glad Michael wasn't taped shivering and not well the one time it happened on June 19th. What good would that have served anyone?
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Exactly. It seems to me as though some want to show Michael looking as bad as possible to prove their point that AEG negligently hired Muarry. This is no difference than what the plaintiffs & defense did where they showed Michael in the worse light possible to win their case. Sometimes we have to really analyze what exactly we are doing or saying.
 
Victory22 said:
I'm glad Michael wasn't taped shivering and not well the one time it happened on June 19th. What good would that have served anyone?
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i would never wanted that picture out for the public. thats not what im sayin. you dont understand what im saying.

im just saying everyone is praising THIS IS IT without even thinking of we are watching mj dying in front of our eyes. that what happened behind the scenes shows a real sad story and I hope when jurors watched THIS IS IT during deliberations that they realized the movie didnt paint the whole picture-
 
Thrill said:
im talking about incidents at set that wasnt filmed or not included in the movie at all. like what kenny described. thats what im talking about.

Michael rambling, trembling, obsessing, talking to God, being cold, shivering, not able to do his spins, not able to sing and dance at the same time, not being able to Eat for himself but needed assistance by kenny, being wrapped up in blankets...


what more do you want me to say??
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They took all the footages including those that were not included in the movie and could not find a damn thing. if they could, trust me, they would have screamed their lungs out.

and how was aeg supposed to figure Murray was the problem? and why didn't MJ check in to a hospital? best yet, why didn't MJ tell AEG what was going on? why MJ did not fire Murray or tell AEG to fire Murray?

as Juros 27 pointed out, AEG was not MJ parents or nanny. The onus was on MJ to look after himself not AEG.
 
Thrill said:
it has been evident from the beginning and reading jurors statement in the press that this is what you all believed. Blame Michael for his death.
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I'm of the opinion that Micheal definitely has some blame for his death. I don't see how you can believe otherwise? CM was giving him propofol at his request, not against his will. MJ was repeatedly warned about how dangerous it was to use propofol to 'sleep'. He ignored those warnings. I can't understand the idea that MJ has zero responsibility for his death, I really can't.

If he was injecting himself with propofol every night without CM involved, I would say he is 100% to blame. Since CM was in the picture, I think that 100% is now shared between 2 people. How much blame on each side? Who knows. There isn't a formula for this type of thing. But seeing as how CM was doing what MJ wanted, and seeing as how CM wasn't qualified to be doing what he was doing, my gut tells me to just split the blame 50/50. I really don't know how else to see it.
 
Thrill said:
it has been evident from the beginning and reading jurors statement in the press that this is what you all believed. Blame Michael for his death.
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It's not about blaming. it's about responsibility. every adult is responsible for his own health, including you. so, if you fall sick someday and don't go to a hospital chances are that your employer won't do it for you and you will die. it's simple as that.
 
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