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The problems with Invincible

Michaels Lover said:
in 1999, when I was in Munich for MJ & Friends concert, we also went to the hotel where he would stay, to see him when he arrived. we waited the whole day, he arrived (at around 6.30-7 pm), he walked around greeted (waved at us), all the fans standing there. and yeah, there were a lot people, of course. he went into the hotel and a while after he appeared in a window, then people started screaming, then he disappeared again, and appeared again in another window, and everyone started screaming again...it was a lot of fun...and it went on like that for HOURS



then, all of the sudden a man came out from the hotel and asked us kindly to be quiet. he (Michael) wouldn't come and wave at us anymore in the windows, and he would like some peace and quiet. he hadn't had a chance to relax since he arrived. and also for the other hotel guests, would like some peace and quiet, as well. so at that point, me and my friend decided to leave. there was no point in keep standing there and scream for him, when he wouldn't appear anymore that night, and we went to the stadium and slept outside there (it was the day before the concert). there were a lot of people who stayed outside the hotel, even after we got that message, and they'd brought sleeping bags and what not...
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Awesome story and memory, and had I had the opertunity I might have done that too. Perhaps it's because I'm getting a little older but I'd prefer a nice cosy bed and a hot chocolate and a book. :lol:
Seriously though, back then I would have done that and left with you guys and camped out with ye. :cool:
 
aazzaabb said:
Awesome story and memory, and had I had the opertunity I might have done that too. Perhaps it's because I'm getting a little older but I'd prefer a nice cosy bed and a hot chocolate and a book. :lol:
Seriously though, back then I would have done that and left with you guys and camped out with ye. :cool:
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lol yeah, I prefer my bed as well...if I did that today (sleeping on the ground), it would kill my back :hysterical:
and imagine, we camped outside the stadium for a whole week, for BOTH concerts in Copenhagen in 1997, to make sure to get up front...my whole body is aching just thinking about it :rofl:
 
aazzaabb said:
Just because something is "nothing unusual" doesn't always mean it's right. I can understand it to a point but I'm not going to justify everything as love and devotion.
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HIStoric said:
I think there's a balance that needs to be struck. I think screaming/chanting when he comes out on his hotel balcony is perfectly fine and remains so for a little while after.

However if they're constantly making a racket all the time - especially at night - it's not only unfair on Michael (who has a right to R&R) but it's also unfair and inconsiderate to the other guests of the hotel.
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Of course, some issues cannot be ignored & I am referring mostly to safety issues (running after limousines in busy roads, threatening to hurt themselves in order to see the artist in person, & so on).

But generally speaking, it is very difficult to strike a balance between normal & not normal behavior when it comes to fans (a word that is derived from fanatics).

The lines between normal/acceptable behavior & extreme, obsessive ways of devotion tend to be many times blurred. Fans, for the most part, are not expected to behave in a reticent way, on the contrary their immeasurable enthusiasm is channeled very often through not normal ways. For me, this is understandable.
 
With Invincible, I think music for the first time became a distant number 2 priority (after his children). And I can certainly understand that. When it was time to hit the studio, he still had that same Michael Jackson dedication, and he was still very demanding of his collaborators and always pushing to make things better, but I think he was relying on ideas from his collaborators more than his own. I don't think it was a passion project as much as his previous albums were. And I think he kind of confirmed that in interviews after, saying that this was his last "pop album" and he wasn't interested in doing it anymore.
 
MAQ said:
Ok so we know how this album got panned by almost every other critic - but most of them were concentrating more on his public persona than his music which is highly unprofessional.

Having said that, I find Invincible to be a sharp detraction from his previous music, which might have ticked off some fans - and even made some new ones. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Invincible, it's my third most favorite album (after Dangerous and HIStory) and I absolutely love it. However, there were some pretty obvious weaknesses in there.

I think, the average track length was a major weakness. Almost every other track played out too long and sucked away the whole punch (e.g Unbreakable, Privacy, 2000 watts). Some better songs should've made the cut (Shout, Xscape). Too many tracks (16) for a romance themed album. Threatened should've been the first track, it has a much better punch than Unbreakable imo. Michael should have added some, idk irregularities, like the way he laughed in Get On the Floor or beatboxing like he did in HIStory and Dangerous.

I think the major problem was the average track length. Even YRMW sounds a little tiring at the end.

So, guys, what do you think??
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There's no problem with Invincible.
 
^ would you say it's youre fav MJ album? if not what prevents it from being so..
 
My problems with Invincible:

1) Weak title track. Invincible is a decent song but it's definitely the weakest title track of any MJ solo adult album.
2) Inclusion of rap on the album's first three songs. I'm not a big fan of rap but I don't mind the rap on Unbreakable. But having rap on three consecutive songs was a bit of an overkill and the fact that Fats is pretty mediocre doesn't help.
3) Invincible sessions have the best outtakes after Bad sessions. Many of the songs that didn't feature on Invincible are better than the songs on the album which makes me wonder did Sony block MJ from including songs such as Blue Gangsta, Xscape, We had Enough or did MJ himself choose to not include those songs on Vince because he knew that Sony won't properly support the album.

But anyways my Invincible tracklist would be:

1) Unbreakable
2) Heartbreaker (without the rap)
3) Xscape (Title track)
4) Break Of Dawn
5) Blue Gangsta
6) You Rock My World
7) Butterflies
8) Speechless
9) She Was Loving Me
10) You Are My Life
11) A Place With No Name
12) Don't Walk Away
13) We've Had Enough
14) Shout
15) Whatever Happens
16) Threatened

I would have Invincible, 2000 Watts and TLC released as B-sides on singles.

Unlike most people, I don't mind the length of the album. The more songs the better for me.
 
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I personally think the title of the album could have been UNBREAKABLE.. First I like how the song describes his position and what he was trying to represent at the time.. OR simply they could have swapped the words 'invincible' and 'unbreakable' in the songs and still make sense -that way keep the album name... Unbreakable would still make sense If he sang 'Invincibe' and vice versa..
 
KOPV said:
I personally think the title of the album could have been UNBREAKABLE.. First I like how the song describes his position and what he was trying to represent at the time.. OR simply they could have swapped the words 'invincible' and 'unbreakable' in the songs and still make sense -that way keep the album name... Unbreakable would still make sense If he sang 'Invincibe' and vice versa..
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Before listening to Invincible, I thought the song would be about MJ and how he is invincible. I was surprised upon hearing the song that it was about some invincible girl who just won't approve of his love. Yeah Unbreakable would have been a better title track as it describes MJ.
 
For whatever reason I just don't quite care for the title UNBREAKABLE, though that's easily one of the best songs to emerge from the Invincible sessions. Full of balls-to-the-wall fury and energy and I love every second of it.

No matter what "track listing" we may come up with, that one HAS to be the album opener, do or die.
 
MAQ said:
Ok so we know how this album got panned by almost every other critic - but most of them were concentrating more on his public persona than his music which is highly unprofessional.

Having said that, I find Invincible to be a sharp detraction from his previous music, which might have ticked off some fans - and even made some new ones. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Invincible, it's my third most favorite album (after Dangerous and HIStory) and I absolutely love it. However, there were some pretty obvious weaknesses in there.

I think, the average track length was a major weakness. Almost every other track played out too long and sucked away the whole punch (e.g Unbreakable, Privacy, 2000 watts). Some better songs should've made the cut (Shout, Xscape). Too many tracks (16) for a romance themed album. Threatened should've been the first track, it has a much better punch than Unbreakable imo. Michael should have added some, idk irregularities, like the way he laughed in Get On the Floor or beatboxing like he did in HIStory and Dangerous.

I think the major problem was the average track length. Even YRMW sounds a little tiring at the end.

So, guys, what do you think??
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For me ,Invincible its an all over the place AUTOTUNED disaster. I liked it until I have found out that it was AUTOTUNED. Now its a big no for me. Ill never listen to it again. I rather listen to the previous albums with his real voice (80's albums and early 90's albums). Im not a fan of robotic and fake vocals. Michael should have known better for Invincible (more like Unlistenable)🤮🤮
 
dam2040 said:
My problems are few with this album, but they are huge ones. For starters, the first three songs are exactly the same. Up-tempo beat, rapper and a little dance section at the end. Exactly the same. Also, too many ballads. Way too sappy. Vocally, he's on point. It's incredible. It's just the nature of the songs don't match up. Butterflies, Don't Walk Away for example are to me, classic MJ. He was back when he released those in my eyes. That's the Michael I love. 2,000 Watts, Cry and a couple more are just not 10/10 songs you'd expect from a Michael Jackson album. I still find it sad this is his last output to the world musically. He had incredible material at his fingertips, it just wasn't used for some reason.
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You mean "vocally,we are forced to think he is on point". Forced by the autotune and fake effects that were added to his voice🤢🤮.
 
Hess said:
Is there a problem with Invincible ???
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Yes, the fake and robotic vocals aka Autotune. Yes, his lack of songwriting. Yes, he abandoned his signature vocal style and hiccups. Yes ,its all over the place. Just because he hired producers to write and compose some great songs,it still doesn't prove anything . Out of 16 songs,only 6 are trully great (Unbreakable,Dont walk away,Threatned,Break of Dawn,Butterflies,Whatever Happens). But the album its still the worst one he has ever released. It doesnt even have a flow. Only autotune and songs mostly wrote by others ,thrown all over the place. A fiasco...Michael for sure has lost all passsion by that point...
I cant believe this is the same man that wrote for Bad or Thriller and changed forever the pop industry with his unique vocal style. The Invincible Michael has to be some double ....
 
AlwaysThere said:
I'll return for my own in-depth analysis at a later time. But first, a few possibly controversial comments:

The similarities between the three opening songs is far from one of the album's issues. They aren't nearly identical enough to pose a real problem. "Jam" sounding almost indistinguishable from "In the Closet" or "Dangerous" in terms of production - now that's an issue.

"We've Had Enough" shouldn't have been on the album. Simply my personal opinion. A fine song but far from one that I would say needs any huge exposure or attention. Now, "Beautiful Girl?" THAT should have been polished and released.

"Speechless," "Don't Walk Away" and "Whatever Happens" are the only songs on the album that really earned their release. Everything else is either good but unnecessary to Michael's catalog ("Butterflies," "Break of Dawn") or simply garbage ("Cry," "Privacy").
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Jam and In the Closet are classic Teddy Riley productions with Michael Jackson singing them(and also receiving credit as one of the songwriters). Those songs are classic Teddy Riley/Michael Jackson tracks . They are better than anything on Invincible.
 
PurpleThriller said:
For me ,Invincible its an all over the place AUTOTUNED disaster. I liked it until I have found out that it was AUTOTUNED. Now its a big no for me. Ill never listen to it again. I rather listen to the previous albums with his real voice (80's albums and early 90's albums). Im not a fan of robotic and fake vocals. Michael should have known better for Invincible (more like Unlistenable)🤮🤮
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Auto-Tune doesn’t turn a bad vocal into a good one. What it does is it perfects an already good vocal in order to make it sound even more in tune.
I don’t understand why you’d have a problem with him using it. If you can’t sing and use Auto-Tune, you will sound like a robot - you can’t even really hear the auto tune on Michael’s vocals (and no the effects used on 2000 Watts and Whatever Happens have nothing to do with Auto-Tune or any other type of pitch correction).
 
PurpleThriller said:
Yes, the fake and robotic vocals aka Autotune. Yes, his lack of songwriting. Yes, he abandoned his signature vocal style and hiccups. Yes ,its all over the place. Just because he hired producers to write and compose some great songs,it still doesn't prove anything . Out of 16 songs,only 6 are trully great (Unbreakable,Dont walk away,Threatned,Break of Dawn,Butterflies,Whatever Happens). But the album its still the worst one he has ever released. It doesnt even have a flow. Only autotune and songs mostly wrote by others ,thrown all over the place. A fiasco...Michael for sure has lost all passsion by that point...
I cant believe this is the same man that wrote for Bad or Thriller and changed forever the pop industry with his unique vocal style. The Invincible Michael has to be some double ....
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Invincible isn’t auto tuned. I work in music production/recording, and the only song with any vocal manipulation is “2000 Watts.” (I don’t care what Teddy Riley says, the timbre of Michael’s voice here is unnatural.) I also suspect that “Whatever Happens” was transposed down a half-step or so. Everything else is raw talent, and I’d put money on that.

If you listen to the a cappella tracks of “Privacy” and “Threatened,” you can tell there was a LOT of very obvious comping, but that’s it. Zero auto tune.
 
AlwaysThere said:
Invincible isn’t auto tuned. I work in music production/recording, and the only song with any vocal manipulation is “2000 Watts.” (I don’t care what Teddy Riley says, the timbre of Michael’s voice here is unnatural.) I also suspect that “Whatever Happens” was transposed down a half-step or so. Everything else is raw talent, and I’d put money on that.

If you listen to the a cappella tracks of “Privacy” and “Threatened,” you can tell there was a LOT of very obvious comping, but that’s it. Zero auto tune.
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Michael was past it it is as simple as that. He released one album in about 14 years time before he died. I doubt he had the vocal abilities and the inspiration to come up good music. Looking back I am actually surprised because in the mid 90s he made some of his most inspired music. Compositions like earth song, little susie, money, is it scary, History or morphine are quite special with surprising structures and less aimed at scoring radio hits.

Invincible to me is almost unlistenable, that is not an MJ record.
 
Lord Szechenyi said:
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If this is Auto Tune, it’s some of the cleanest and least invasive I’ve ever heard because there are almost no artifacts. Especially impressive for an early 2000s record. There’s some warbliness, but that could be caused by a multitude of things (e.g., room reflections, improper compression parameters, filters). If there is correction here, looks like it was applied liberally and as an artistic choice, because it’s not noticeable whatsoever.
 
AlwaysThere said:
If this is Auto Tune, it’s some of the cleanest and least invasive I’ve ever heard because there are almost no artifacts. Especially impressive for an early 2000s record. There’s some warbliness, but that could be caused by a multitude of things (e.g., room reflections, improper compression parameters, filters). If there is correction here, looks like it was applied liberally and as an artistic choice, because it’s not noticeable whatsoever.
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Yet
 
I literally don't like any of the vocals on that video, I don't know anything about auto tune so I'm not gonna comment on that.
 
Lord Szechenyi said:
Yet
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Exactly! This is an example of how aggressively obvious pitch correction was in the early 2000s. So unless Michael’s vocal was already borderline perfect, any applied Auto Tune would’ve given off this effect. It’s possible they used Melodyne (a manual correction software), but even so.
 
CodaBroda said:
Speaking of unreleased material, I find it a real shame that the record label didn't let him release "We've Had Enough". I think that would've been a better way to portray the message that "Cry" was trying to deliver.
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I guess WHE wasn´t even recorded, when Invincible came out... But maybe I´m wrong...
 
filmandmusic said:
Michael was past it it is as simple as that. He released one album in about 14 years time before he died. I doubt he had the vocal abilities and the inspiration to come up good music. Looking back I am actually surprised because in the mid 90s he made some of his most inspired music. Compositions like earth song, little susie, money, is it scary, History or morphine are quite special with surprising structures and less aimed at scoring radio hits.

Invincible to me is almost unlistenable, that is not an MJ record.
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He had the abilities to come up with good music what are you talkin about?And isn't he also an iconic and strong vocalist?He defined the 1980s.... or are you reffering just to the 1995-2009 period?Well its true that Invincible era was sure a horrible period!
 
@PurpleThriller

I was actually only talking about invincible. How I was surprised I found the album that bad after all the creative tracks he did in the 90s. It was an enormous letdown and I guess most of the fans thought the same, it left the charts after barely 2 months almost everywhere and never returned.
 
filmandmusic said:
@PurpleThriller

I was actually only talking about invincible. How I was surprised I found the album that bad after all the creative tracks he did in the 90s. It was an enormous letdown and I guess most of the fans thought the same, it left the charts after barely 2 months almost everywhere and never returned.
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Oh,oki. I get it now :D Yeah,its very surprising that his passion or abilities for songwriting just dissapeard. Sad. After Prince,hes my favorite artist and musician. Its sad to see the downfall of this genius,aka "Invincible ".
 
PurpleThriller said:
Oh,oki. I get it now :D Yeah,its very surprising that his passion or abilities for songwriting just dissapeard. Sad. After Prince,hes my favorite artist and musician. Its sad to see the downfall of this genius,aka "Invincible ".
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Mentioned above I dont think MJ was that involved with invincible. If Sony had promoted the album + if he had more control (different producers, tracklist etc) it would have done better. It still sold a decent amount but it just wasn't up to MJs standards. I don't think it was meant to be his last album either. However, his personal life got in the way.
 
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