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My thoughts on Living With Michael Jackson

In fact I kinda compare it to Tina Turner a little. She went through hellacious moments with Ike Turner as her ruler and yet she went on that stage with bruises, being forced out pregnant, bleeding, black-eyed (she had to wear glasses sometimes when she was on TV during the sixties) and yet she eventually left his control and found peace of mind. Michael's situation is quite different since Joe was his father and it's obviously hard to just blame Joe.

We have a little young kid who begged his father to let him perform and he had to be turned down because he was too little. In fact, when the Jackson 5 first started, he and Marlon played percussionists but Joe told the both of them that they were too young to sing and dance. Michael eventually got in around the time he was seven as at least a co-lead and Michael provided the missing spark from the group so Joe pushed him the hardest.

It wasn't really so much the abuse (or hard-ass discipline) that traumatized Michael, it was Joe's reaction to his and his brothers' performances. He never knew how to show love for his children or appreciation for their performances. Michael also suffered the effects of being a Jehovah's Witness in the brisk of a rising career as an entertainer at the age of 11, being told by PR to shorten his age so he can look cuter and dealing with off-stage antics that his brothers and father got into because they were now rock stars. Michael faced a lot of dilemma and went into so much bull, no wonder you can say by the time he was 18 that he still felt like he was 11 because Michael was scared to "grow up" because he felt that growing up meant you had no heart and he surrounded himself with children for that reason.

The problem with that was even if it was nice that Michael seem to win kids' hearts, it was still wrong by societal standards. In the early years of his burgeoning solo fame, Michael had a good team of people keeping him from being too open about it, by "Thriller", Michael felt that he should share his love for things that traditionally kids under 18 were into like Disney and stuff. But he also felt like an old man on stage, people used to tell him in the sixties that he was like a "40-year-old midget" and I guess a part of Michael felt 40 years older than he really was, so here's a young man going through a dilemma. That could also explain why some of his friends were very YOUNG (Emmanuel Lewis, Macaulay Culkin, Brett Barnes, etc.) and very OLD (Elizabeth Taylor, Gregory Peck, Katharine Hepburn, etc.)

And that's what made "Living with Michael Jackson" a sad documentary because while it obviously had good moments like him showcasing his playful side and sharing the time with underprivileged kids from the inner city (not the ones Mike Epps referred to in his comedy special) it showed a man who was tormented by a lot of people, used by a lot of people and having so many demons that it was so hard for him to explain to an idiot like Martin Bash-His-Face why he does what he does. And that was definitely something of a set-up because it brought him to the stupid trial that came with him and that "boy" that he "saved from cancer". And the saddest of it all was that Michael shouldn't even have to answer back when people were criticizing him for the LWMJ docu that he went on and did TWO more specials to say "look I'm not crazy". I would think he have a "I don't give a damn" attitude during the first docu but it was obvious Michael was trying to tell people "look you don't know me".

And to tell you the truth, that documentary still didn't really tell me who Michael Jackson is (I think the Home Movies did tho) because Bash-It chose to twist Michael into weird directions. To this day, I still question why the hell Michael Joe Jackson, Sr. had to do that stupid interview. If he had went to ED BRADLEY in the first go-round, I don't even think we'd be mentioning "trial" and "Michael Jackson" in the same sentence.

It's even sadder that such a f***ed-up documentary as Bash-It's was made some of y'all younger members FANS in the first place of his music when you could've learned about him earlier but then again I understand.
 
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Datsymay, you're dismissing Michael's own words. I take Michael's own descriptions of what happened over some made for tv film which was produced by Jermaine and his ex-wife. Jermaine is the one sibling who is always trying to make the Jackson's seem like the perfect family, but even he admits that beatings took place. His take on it is different then Michael's. Again, that comes down to each person being affected differently.

Michael loves his father, but he's also spoken about wanting his father to show him love in return and he never got that when he needed it. His father called the shots when they were kids. When Michael grew up, he severed his ties with his father and went off on his own.
 
Only time, and Michael's voice, will tell about this. It is complicated. Who can say that if Michael had been able to grow up as a normal child, he would not have ascended later as a super-star anyway? As it was, he raised himself and his family out of poverty. and only Michael is to say what the cost was to him. IMHO, no parent should beat a child, not EVER. I heard Michael's words on "Living With", and I saw his genuine tears. . and I believe him. Both that he was terribly hurt as a child, and that he has forgiven. . .

Vic
 
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Datsymay said:
Oacism did have a part to play in the whole saga. I thought that was the message I was tying to convey, but perhaps you see it differently. I am not an american, and I see things differently.
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Ah. That explains it. Or maybe it doesn't explain it! It can be rather crazy over herr in da states with that...
 
mello1 said:
LOL... actually I think he did so because he was being a bad azz! I've seen kids do that -- it's called being defiant. That is why they are more alike than not...

But I don't doubt that he was scared though. But the fainting and the vomiting later, I think and again my opinion only, is that he didn't like the pressure coming from Joe and his brothers to carry them. Because he didn't want to hurt them and say NO, I don't want to do this and that with y'all -- I'm trying to do my own thing here...

And that is what I think was the beginning of his real problems because once you get isolated from your family for whatever reasons, the snakes and sharks and true manipulators move in and start twisting your head all around. Next thing you know, you don't know who to trust. Look at Britney Spears. The same thing is happening with her. Typical stage parents who squeezed just a little too tightly. Britney defies them in her quest to be her own person. Then here comes the two bit managers and hangers-on who don't a bit more care about her than they do the man in the moon. And she goes down as a result of it all.

That is why these celebs MUST have very strong family units going into the business and not let anything come between them, because if that happens and you happen to be the bread winner, the criminal hustles will move in for the kill.
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Okay, that's fair. But Michael has said he used to faint and vomit because he was scared of his father. I'm just going off of what he himself says. I don't like to speculate because we aren't him, ya know.
 
gemini27 said:
He is timid. that's the effect of the relentless teasing he got from his father. Ok. so maybe Joe didnt realize it had a negative effect on Michael's self-esteem but aren't parents supposed to be our biggest ally? Arent they suppose to boost our confidence and not be the first to make us feel bad?

And no, he is not a whimp. He would not have lasted this long if he is.
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There was no relentless teasing. You talk like you think Joseph is senile or foolish, People don't sit down an tease people relentlessly. The jacksons were a family that played with each other. joseph DID pay wih his kids. Michael asked Joseh to come and play pillow fights with them Obviously joe played with them. Joe sometimes climed through the window and scared his children. He was playing with them. MJ does that a lot too. That is why we have Thriller and ghost. MJ loves scaring people, he got that from his father,.Joe used to play with his children . When Jackie was asked in an interview what they like to do, Jackie said they TEASED each other. MJ took part in the teasing, so did Joe. Michael called janet names. He called jermaine names, he called Randy names, yet Michael complained that he got teased. Give me a break.:)
 
Randy getting beat for not doing a move right.....nooottt for being a badazz. LOL I honestly think that a lot of the time, the beatings werent because of rebellion or being bad or whatever...i think most of the time the defiance CAME from Joe being so hard on them and plain out mean.

But thats a digression, i dont really know, but thats my opinion.
 
J5master said:
Randy getting beat for not doing a move right.....nooottt for being a badazz. LOL I honestly think that a lot of the time, the beatings werent because of rebellion or being bad or whatever...i think most of the time the defiance CAME from Joe being so hard on them and plain out mean.

But thats a digression, i dont really know, but thats my opinion.
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IMHO, no child should be beaten.
 
troubleman84 said:
Michael also suffered the effects of being a Jehovah's Witness in the brisk of a rising career as an entertainer...
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I don't think that this point can be overstated. I could never really understand how anyone could be in the entertainment business as a practicing Jehovah Witness. It just doesn't work on many levels.
 
troubleman84 said:
In fact I kinda compare it to Tina Turner a little. She went through hellacious moments with Ike Turner as her ruler and yet she went on that stage with bruises, being forced out pregnant, bleeding, black-eyed (she had to wear glasses sometimes when she was on TV during the sixties) and yet she eventually left his control and found peace of mind. Michael's situation is quite different since Joe was his father and it's obviously hard to just blame Joe.

We have a little young kid who begged his father to let him perform and he had to be turned down because he was too little. In fact, when the Jackson 5 first started, he and Marlon played percussionists but Joe told the both of them that they were too young to sing and dance. Michael eventually got in around the time he was seven as at least a co-lead and Michael provided the missing spark from the group so Joe pushed him the hardest.

It wasn't really so much the abuse (or hard-ass discipline) that traumatized Michael, it was Joe's reaction to his and his brothers' performances. He never knew how to show love for his children or appreciation for their performances. Michael also suffered the effects of being a Jehovah's Witness in the brisk of a rising career as an entertainer at the age of 11, being told by PR to shorten his age so he can look cuter and dealing with off-stage antics that his brothers and father got into because they were now rock stars. Michael faced a lot of dilemma and went into so much bull, no wonder you can say by the time he was 18 that he still felt like he was 11 because Michael was scared to "grow up" because he felt that growing up meant you had no heart and he surrounded himself with children for that reason.

The problem with that was even if it was nice that Michael seem to win kids' hearts, it was still wrong by societal standards. In the early years of his burgeoning solo fame, Michael had a good team of people keeping him from being too open about it, by "Thriller", Michael felt that he should share his love for things that traditionally kids under 18 were into like Disney and stuff. But he also felt like an old man on stage, people used to tell him in the sixties that he was like a "40-year-old midget" and I guess a part of Michael felt 40 years older than he really was, so here's a young man going through a dilemma. That could also explain why some of his friends were very YOUNG (Emmanuel Lewis, Macaulay Culkin, Brett Barnes, etc.) and very OLD (Elizabeth Taylor, Gregory Peck, Katharine Hepburn, etc.)

And that's what made "Living with Michael Jackson" a sad documentary because while it obviously had good moments like him showcasing his playful side and sharing the time with underprivileged kids from the inner city (not the ones Mike Epps referred to in his comedy special) it showed a man who was tormented by a lot of people, used by a lot of people and having so many demons that it was so hard for him to explain to an idiot like Martin Bash-His-Face why he does what he does. And that was definitely something of a set-up because it brought him to the stupid trial that came with him and that "boy" that he "saved from cancer". And the saddest of it all was that Michael shouldn't even have to answer back when people were criticizing him for the LWMJ docu that he went on and did TWO more specials to say "look I'm not crazy". I would think he have a "I don't give a damn" attitude during the first docu but it was obvious Michael was trying to tell people "look you don't know me".

And to tell you the truth, that documentary still didn't really tell me who Michael Jackson is (I think the Home Movies did tho) because Bash-It chose to twist Michael into weird directions. To this day, I still question why the hell Michael Joe Jackson, Sr. had to do that stupid interview. If he had went to ED BRADLEY in the first go-round, I don't even think we'd be mentioning "trial" and "Michael Jackson" in the same sentence.

It's even sadder that such a f***ed-up documentary as Bash-It's was made some of y'all younger members FANS in the first place of his music when you could've learned about him earlier but then again I understand.
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That's an excellent post Timmy. Good job.
 
Datsymay said:
There was no relentless teasing. You talk like you think Joseph is senile or foolish, People don't sit down an tease people relentlessly. The jacksons were a family that played with each other. joseph DID pay wih his kids. Michael asked Joseh to come and play pillow fights with them Obviously joe played with them. Joe sometimes climed through the window and scared his children. He was playing with them. MJ does that a lot too. That is why we have Thriller and ghost. MJ loves scaring people, he got that from his father,.Joe used to play with his children . When Jackie was asked in an interview what they like to do, Jackie said they TEASED each other. MJ took part in the teasing, so did Joe. Michael called janet names. He called jermaine names, he called Randy names, yet Michael complained that he got teased. Give me a break.:)
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Are you kidding me?
Either way it goes the teasing was uncalled for and is also something that I disagree with. Playing or not. MJs older brothers and siblings is one story but from your FATHER is another. If everyone was on the same page and labeled themselves a family that 'played'...MJ and others wouldn't have taken it so seriously.

And also, there's probably TONS of instances that MJ never talked about and we'll probably never hear.

And believe me, Thriller and Ghosts PROBABLY didnt come out of that :lol:
 
wannabestartinsomthin21 said:
Okay, that's fair. But Michael has said he used to faint and vomit because he was scared of his father. I'm just going off of what he himself says. I don't like to speculate because we aren't him, ya know.
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Of course. Scared of having to face him, knowing that he had some next 'big deal' that he wanted MJ's involvment in. Knowing that Joe could intimidate him into doing it. Best defense is to surround yourself with layers of 'handlers'. That's my interpretation of it.
 
mello1 said:
I don't think that this point can be overstated. I could never really understand how anyone could be in the entertainment business as a practicing Jehovah Witness. It just doesn't work on many levels.
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Yeah, and the teachings he was given while a JW was so different to what he was being introduced as a teen pop star of the seventies. The seventies was the epitome of sex, drugs and rock & roll. Michael was being thrust into the top of the pop apex both with and without his brothers and he had sexual favors and drug favors in his face. Plus we don't know how really traumatic it was for Michael to deal with being who he was: young, black, gifted, successful and yet so lonely in his heart. We just don't know and probably never will. Least now, I'm thinking Michael is slowly getting the peace of mind that he never got in the first 46 years of his life.
 
I can see that mello. I think it's a combination of both, really.

I think what Timmy said about the thing that really traumatized Michael was his father never really showing him he loved him or was proud of him is true, based on Michael's reactions and words. I think the beatings only reinforeced the idea in Michael's head that his father maybe didn't love him. Because like I said before, a parent is suppoed to be your protector, not your attacker. And I think Michael being denied that show of love from Joe, along with seeing Joe as some sort of physical threat, probably confused Michael about him, which caused him to say things like "I love my father, but I don't know him."
 
wannabestartinsomthin21 said:
I can see that mello. I think it's a combination of both, really.

I think what Timmy said about the thing that really traumatized Michael was his father never really showing him he loved him or was proud of him is true, based on Michael's reactions and words. I think the beatings only reinforeced the idea in Michael's head that his father maybe didn't love him. Because like I said before, a parent is suppoed to be your protector, not your attacker. And I think Michael being denied that show of love from Joe, along with seeing Joe as some sort of physical threat, probably confused Michael about him, which caused him to say things like "I love my father, but I don't know him."
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bingo..........
 
J5master said:
Randy getting beat for not doing a move right.....nooottt for being a badazz. LOL I honestly think that a lot of the time, the beatings werent because of rebellion or being bad or whatever...i think most of the time the defiance CAME from Joe being so hard on them and plain out mean.

But thats a digression, i dont really know, but thats my opinion.
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Janet said that there was no beatings when she was around. I believe her. Older parents tend to stop beating their kids as they get older. janet was the last one and she said she got none and saw none. So That must mean that the beatings took place before Motown days. It stopped when they moved from Gary. Remember that joe did not practice them post Motown. Susan De Passe did.
 
okay? That doesnt address what i said lol. Before motown, Joe practiced them...and it was a lot of pressure, and a lot of heart ache and that was enough.
 
Some of you make it sound like Joe was beating his kids every day. The kids got whooped when they broke the rules, and they didn't always got beat, they got to move brickes sometimes. It was descipline. Most families did that. Stop targetting Joe Jackson and make him out to be a villain because MJ cries. Kathrine jackson did beat him too. Is she evil too.
 
How do u know this Dats? Where you in the house? LOL

U seem to know the ends and outs of the Jackson household, including all that MJ felt about it lol.

All i know is how MJ react to it, and obviously MJ was really hurt by it. Whatever joe did. And his other brothers (some of them any way) can testify to the fact that joe was VERY tough, maybe TOO tough...so what is to argue here?No one is saying Joe is evil. We're saying he had a hand in MJ's pain, which he did. But MJ loves him rightfully and Joe loves him back. No one is evil or the villian in this. I just think it was wrong to raise his kids in that manner,, but it doesnt make him evil.
 
That's all I'm saying J5. Nobody is targetting Joe or calling him names, we're, at least speaking for myself, just wanting people to respect the impact Joe's treatment had on Michael. It isn't fair to disregard that and say Joe's treatment had no negative affects when Michael himself says that it did and when it shows in how he speaks about it, how he reacts to the thought of it, how he IS because of it. A part of Michael's pain comes from his father. That's his OWN words and we can't deny it. Not all of it. But some of it, and it is deep rooted for Michael. If it wasn't, Michael would have never had a turbulant relastionship with him, one that is well documented and known.
 
J5master said:
How do u know this Dats? Where you in the house? LOL

U seem to know the ends and outs of the Jackson household, including all that MJ felt about it lol.

All i know is how MJ react to it, and obviously MJ was really hurt by it. Whatever joe did. And his other brothers (some of them any way) can testify to the fact that joe was VERY tough, maybe TOO tough...so what is to argue here?No one is saying Joe is evil. We're saying he had a hand in MJ's pain, which he did. But MJ loves him rightfully and Joe loves him back. No one is evil or the villian in this. I just think it was wrong to raise his kids in that manner,, but it doesnt make him evil.
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Yep, and I do have an instinct for smelling BS.
Look, we are not going to agree on this. I love mj very much I believe that he is a special person and I believe that god is with him and wants him to do something special for him, but that doesn't mean MJ is a holy man. he does exaggerate sometimes even tell a little 'white' lie. he did tell one about his last son, so why wouldn't he tell another. We know now that he swears and drinks and love sex mags. So he is not perfect. I judge for myself what I will believe. I make an objective judgement. I look at the thing as a whole. I listen to all the arguments. I read the books. I read at least 6 books written by members of the family and I watched the various docu. I watched the behaviour of the children and I use the knowledge and experience I have in dealing wih children to come to my own judgement, not just one speach or interview that mj does which was primarily for PR purposes., Latoya did one too remember.
 
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I'm not saying MJ is perfect either. But JOE certainly isnt either.

and saying "if mj lied about this, then he could lie about this" is really not a great argument cuz then all of those books, all of the things u pick out as truth may not be truth. MJ could've lied about EVERYTHING in his life then.

Even if he was lying a lil about that (and it would have to be VERY little cuz the whole family would be in on this lie lol)...saying he faints and vomits in his presence is very specific lol. MJ carried on this lie for a looooooooong time. Even faked "forgiveness" to his father for all that pain in Oxford. Faked all the tears in interviews, since all of that is exaggeration right?

Again, books and videos will only tell you so much...if u can pick out BS so well. If u dont believe MJ, but believe The American Dream, and read all the books...u should know that the family WOULD NEVER put everything that truly happened, and i mean the nitty gritty stuff in the videos and books.You'd know that MJ wouldn't act scared of his father in front of a camera, u know the family did everything possible to look wholesome back then. How do u pick and chose what to believe then?

You act like you lived in MJ's head with the family when he was little cuz ur so SURE of everything that happened and how he MUST feel about it.

Well I guess Im giving mJ the benefit of the "Doubt"...I dont think he'd lie about something like this. I chose to believe the man for the most part. Especially when it comes to this.
 
^^^ Thats what i'm saying...INCLUDING Joesph lol. DEFINITELY including Joesph lol.

But they arent saint but arent evil either
 
Why would Michael lie about something like this? It makes no sense. Why would he purposfually lie about his father over something like this? Not just in public, but to personal friends. His ex-wife, Jane Fonda, Elizabeth Taylor, even record execs like Walter Yetnikoff? It makes NO sense. Michael isn't lying. Michael is simply retelling what happened from his view point, how it affected him. And to call him a liar over this isn't right, imo. Why then is he so opposed to child abuse, both in the form of neglect and the form of physical? Why is he such an advocat for family unity and being there for your child, for telling them every day that you love them, look them in the eye and saying it? It's really unfair to Michael to call him a liar over something which he was traumatized by. He hates saying these things in public. He told his father that it was the ghost writers fault when he described the beatings in Moonwalk. He apologized to his father on camera when he told Oprah about it, and then supposedly later bought his father an SUV to make up for it. He calls his father a genius and praises him at every turn after he talks about the pain he felt and feels over his upbringing. He doesn't want to paint his father in a bad light. But he's asked questions and he answers, he sometimes is forced to because he feels the need to explain himself.

Those tears he shed while delivering his Oxford union speech were not crocidile tears, they were real, or when he spoke of the fear he felt and the anger he felt over what his father did. Or when he had those private conversations with that Rabbi over how his dad made him feel. I choose to listen to Michael about himself over what other people say about him.
 
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Datsymay said:
Yes, I do. MJ is not perfect. I don't expect him to be. I watched a video of MJ stopping in midflow of a game to go beg his father to come join in the fun, the way mj talked to his dad MJ sounded like he was the boss. He was about 11 then. Don't sound scared to me.:mello:If he wasn't scared of Joe then I doubt he would have been scared later when he was getting older.
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The thing is, you can't summarize an entire father/son relationship on something like that. It reminds me of when MJ critics look at pictures of him and his kids, and if they aren't smiling at the exact time the photos are taken, they'll say, "Oh, his kids are so unhappy that Michael Jackson is their father." Total BS.

When I was little, I was very carefree, insistent, and even bossy with my mother, but when she actually got mad at me over something and yelled, I would get scared. There are layers to any relationship that no one can be privy to without being a personal part of it, and to speculate on that is downright wrong. MJ is the biggest authority on how MJ feels. More so than even his family and friends. Michael Jackson said that he was frightened of his father and would at times feel like fainting in his presence, and I find absolutely no reason to say he's lying. I mean, it's never impossible that someone is lying when they tell you something like that, but since there's no real basis for us to play detective with, openly regarding it as a non-truth is faulty.
 
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