If Billie Jean hadn't been released on the Thriller album

mj_frenzy;4236228 said:
I know that there are subtle differences in the syllables in that hook (in these two songs).

I just wanted to present the Dibango case in one sentence, so I avoided getting into such details which do not change the fact.

That change everything about what you have said, the difference between a plagiarism (so identical to the song), and a strong inspiration, because these two sounds are very different.


mj_frenzy;4236228 said:
Frank Dileo’s contribution to the success of the ‘Thiller’ album was huge (at that time he was Vice President of Promotions at Epic Records).

But especially Dileo’s idea about shooting & releasing the ‘Thriller’ video, which boosted even more sales of the album.

It was because of those contributions that MJ thought that he should hire him as his manager, which he did in March (1984).


You don't know Dileo contribution except his own quotes (so not objective), yes he have helped Jackson (with the release of the singles Beat it/Billie Jean) because it was his commercial role, but in artistic role about music ? just lol, look we know near nothing about his role; maybe he was also part of the team "don't use money for Thriller video"from Epic.

See my quotes with the direct Jackson artists teams, who have clearly said, and among them, Quincy Jones, one of the biggest critic against Jackson post-mortem, that the decision was already in place for a Thriller music video during the recording, they don't have said that in the same time, but during different years and events; also if I trust Moonwalk book, Dileo have just said you should make another music video; nothing indicate he have said "Thriller", but Swieden himself have said it was an obvious choice for a mini-movie, a plan who was already in Jackson mind during the creation of the album, nobody have "pushed him" to do that.

Look, my problem with Dileo quote, he sound he have influenced Michael about music and I quote him: "you should dance with zombies"; like he have created the concept of this music video, it's simply a joke, and again Michael has already done a short movie music video with "can you feel it", Thriller was just the continuity of that.

Also, yes the sales was better thanks the music video, but it was already the biggest selling album in all the time in US/worldwide according the Guiness in Feb 1984 (the award clearly said that it was during the year of 1983, so before Thriller music video who was in Dec. of this year).



mj_frenzy;4236228 said:
All your quotes you posted come after MJ’s death, too.

Yes but they were present during the artistic process of the song and don't have said "that because of me, thanks to me !!! applause my influence, my genius and my creativity !!!", something they could have easily said, and like with Dileo, you would have trusted them, again Dileo is not an artist, also we can't really accuse Quincy Jones to be nice with Jackson after his death, the quote is indirectly toward the music video, he talked more about the Poe elements of the song; and regardless, that two sources who give credit to Jackson and not themselves, against one who give credit to himself, again nobody have confirmed the Dileo version.


mj_frenzy;4236228 said:
Do not rely on such public, positive events (like the MJ’s part of the 2013 Dubai Music week festival), when you want to gather unbiased, reliable information about MJ.

The aim of such events is to portray MJ in a positive light because they want to promote his posthumous legacy.

They even advertise that particular aim they serve.

Also, Bruce Swedien always butters MJ up, so, do not take everything he says about MJ as fact.

Why ? Because they have said something positive about Jackson ? Look, I don't have quoted Swieden, but Temperton, the guy was extremely discreet, very shy, and Jones in general don't hesitate to insult in public Michael, also they are far more objective than me, you, or Dileo, and others guys from Epic/Sony etc..., because they were present during the built of these albums, during all the process, they are a direct source.


mj_frenzy;4236228 said:
MJ settled the Dibango case out of court not because they found a compromise, but because he knew he would lose the case, so he wanted to avoid further, huge legal damages.

No, people settled in court to don't have futur problem (see for example Ray Park Jr/Huey Lewis fiasco), in fact most of them have a clause of silence, it's an agreement, but you know we can take also the problem in the other side, Dibango have accepted the proposition and don't have fought for a far more important royalties, because he know that he will lose the case in a trial and he is aware that ultimately the two sound of mama etc... are very different, imo they have agreed because it was the best insterest for both at this moment, both avoided the eventual damage public image, but accept that don't mean your are guilty.
 
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blair;4236235 said:
That change everything about what you have said, the difference between a plagiarism (so identical to the song), and a strong inspiration, because these two sounds are very different.

You don't know Dileo contribution except his own quotes (so not objective), yes he have helped Jackson (with the release of the singles Beat it/Billie Jean) because it was his commercial role, but in artistic role about music ? just lol, look we know near nothing about his role; maybe he was also part of the team "don't use money for Thriller video"from Epic.

See my quotes with the direct Jackson artists teams, who have clearly said, and among them, Quincy Jones, one of the biggest critic against Jackson post-mortem, that the decision was already in place for a Thriller music video during the recording, they don't have said that in the same time, but during different years and events; also if I trust Moonwalk book, Dileo have just said you should make another music video; nothing indicate he have said "Thriller", but Swieden himself have said it was an obvious choice for a mini-movie, a plan who was already in Jackson mind during the creation of the album, nobody have "pushed him" to do that.

Look, my problem with Dileo quote, he sound he have influenced Michael about music and I quote him: "you should dance with zombies"; like he have created the concept of this music video, it's simply a joke, and again Michael has already done a short movie music video with "can you feel it", Thriller was just the continuity of that.

Also, yes the sales was better thanks the music video, but it was already the biggest selling album in all the time in US/worldwide according the Guiness in Feb 1984 (the award clearly said that it was during the year of 1983, so before Thriller music video who was in Dec. of this year).

Yes but they were present during the artistic process of the song and don't have said "that because of me, thanks to me !!! applause my influence, my genius and my creativity !!!", something they could have easily said, and like with Dileo, you would have trusted them, again Dileo is not an artist, also we can't really accuse Quincy Jones to be nice with Jackson after his death, the quote is indirectly toward the music video, he talked more about the Poe elements of the song; and regardless, that two sources who give credit to Jackson and not themselves, against one who give credit to himself, again nobody have confirmed the Dileo version.

Why ? Because they have said something positive about Jackson ? Look, I don't have quoted Swieden, but Temperton, the guy was extremely discreet, very shy, and Jones in general don't hesitate to insult in public Michael, also they are far more objective than me, you, or Dileo, and others guys from Epic/Sony etc..., because they were present during the built of these albums, during all the process, they are a direct source.

No, people settled in court to don't have futur problem (see for example Ray Park Jr/Huey Lewis fiasco), in fact most of them have a clause of silence, it's an agreement, but you know we can take also the problem in the other side, Dibango have accepted the proposition and don't have fought for a far more important royalties, because he know that he will lose the case in a trial and he is aware that ultimately the two sound of mama etc... are very different, imo they have agreed because it was the best insterest for both at this moment, both avoided the eventual damage public image, but accept that don't mean your are guilty.

Dibango’s hook is clearly sampled in ‘Wanna Be Startin' Somethin’, so it required permission, despite those subtle differences in the syllables.

Samples, in general, quite often have such subtle differences, but they still require permission.

Even Quincy Jones admitted (to Roger Friedman) that MJ took it directly from Dibango.

Also, reports from the ‘Thriller’ era praised Dileo’s business/marketing acumen that was crucial for the success of that album (including Dileo’s catalyst role in the ‘Thriller’ video situation).

‘Thriller’ was not the biggest selling album of all time before the release of the ‘Thriller’ video, see here:

mj_frenzy;4235185 said:
It did become after the release of that video, when it sold even more copies that the ‘Saturday Night Fever’ album & overtook it in 1984.

“… In February 1984, it [‘Thriller’] would overtake the Bee Gees’ Saturday Night Fever and become the biggest selling album of all time…” (Matt Richards & Mark Langthorne, 83 Minutes book)

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/142301-If-Billie-Jean-hadn-t-been-released-on-the-Thriller-album

Also, such events, like the 2013 Dubai Music week festival, have a strict positive agenda that personally makes me very skeptical about the impartiality of their provided information.
 
mj_frenzy;4236372 said:
Dibango’s hook is clearly sampled in ‘Wanna Be Startin' Somethin’, so it required permission, despite those subtle differences in the syllables.

Samples, in general, quite often have such subtle differences, but they still require permission.

Even Quincy Jones admitted (to Roger Friedman) that MJ took it directly from Dibango.

No it' not if you take inspiration, that not a "sample", see the quotes from Jon Anderson I have posted, every artists do that, including peoples who have taken inspiration to Jackson (Huey Lewis, Kool and the Gang, Billy Ocean etc...), that the rules of this art, Quincy Jones have admitted to take inspiration, not to take the song from Dibango, like he have admitted to Anderson, Jackson have also said that to Daryl Hall, they have admittted and claimed that to them with no shame, because there are nothing wrong to do that if you change enough the sound/melody etc..., they were not crazy.

I have posted the two music, there are not just subtle differences, that the opposites, there are few "subtles" sounds (in this case "words) who are alike, Dibango don't have the monopoly to the words "Macoosa" or the African sound like; if he was so sure, he would have asked royalties and not accepted the deal with Jackson.

mj_frenzy;4236372 said:
Also, reports from the ‘Thriller’ era praised Dileo’s business/marketing acumen that was crucial for the success of that album (including Dileo’s catalyst role in the ‘Thriller’ video situation).

I don't have said Dileo don't have business role, that was his job, I posted the quotes from two differents peoples who have refuted his claim it was his decision to make the Thriller video.

mj_frenzy;4236372 said:
‘Thriller’ was not the biggest selling album of all time before the release of the ‘Thriller’ video, see here:

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/142301-If-Billie-Jean-hadn-t-been-released-on-the-Thriller-album

Wrong:

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/60at60/2015/8/1984-best-selling-album-of-all-time-392913

"After selling 32 million copies in 1983 alone, Thriller was confirmed as the world's biggest seller in February 1984"

See yourself it was during the year 1983 alone, Feb 1984 was just the year of the award; the music video for Thriller was in December 1983, 1 month is not enough time to have a real influence for the sales, the impact of this music video was more present during 1984.

mj_frenzy;4236372 said:
Also, such events, like the 2013 Dubai Music week festival, have a strict positive agenda that personally makes me very skeptical about the impartiality of their provided information.

So what, you call Temperton a liar ? you could be skeptical, but that still the best source we could have about the role and influence of Jackson in his own albums, far more that the others.
 
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blair;4236390 said:
No it' not if you take inspiration, that not a "sample", see the quotes from Jon Anderson I have posted, every artists do that, including peoples who have taken inspiration to Jackson (Huey Lewis, Kool and the Gang, Billy Ocean etc...), that the rules of this art, Quincy Jones have admitted to take inspiration, not to take the song from Dibango, like he have admitted to Anderson, Jackson have also said that to Daryl Hall, they have admittted and claimed that to them with no shame, because there are nothing wrong to do that if you change enough the sound/melody etc..., they were not crazy.

I have posted the two music, there are not just subtle differences, that the opposites, there are few "subtles" sounds (in this case "words) who are alike, Dibango don't have the monopoly to the words "Macoosa" or the African sound like; if he was so sure, he would have asked royalties and not accepted the deal with Jackson.

Court decided to list eventually Dibango’s name in Rihanna’s ‘Don't Stop The Music’.

This proves that Dibango’s hook required permission from the very beginning.

Also, about the ‘Billie Jean’ bassline, Daryl Hall knew that MJ was at fault, but Hall found it unwise to fight legally for the case because MJ at the time was too powerful to be defeated.

So, Hall back then just said that he did not mind.

blair;4236390 said:
Wrong:

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/60at60/2015/8/1984-best-selling-album-of-all-time-392913

"After selling 32 million copies in 1983 alone, Thriller was confirmed as the world's biggest seller in February 1984"

See yourself it was during the year 1983 alone, Feb 1984 was just the year of the award; the music video for Thriller was in December 1983, 1 month is not enough time to have a real influence for the sales, the impact of this music video was more present during 1984.

‘Thriller’ did not sell 32 million copies worldwide in 1983 alone.

Here is a more analytical view of the worldwide sales of the ‘Thriller’ album regarding that particular period:

13 million by November 11th, 1983
14 million by December 4th, 1983
20 million by December 18th, 1983
21 million by December 20th, 1983
23 million by January 27th, 1984
25 million by February 7th, 1984

The above figures come from EPIC/CBS, Billboard but also from other media outlets.

As you can see, a month (December) was more than enough to have a real influence on that album’s sales.

blair;4236390 said:
I don't have said Dileo don't have business role, that was his job, I posted the quotes from two differents peoples who have refuted his claim it was his decision to make the Thriller video.

Reports from the ‘Thriller’ era emphasized Dileo’s role in the ‘Thriller’ video (including Dileo’s idea about the video).

These reports came out in real time, & before what MJ claimed about that years later in the Moonwalk book, or before other people’s words that tried to refute that.

blair;4236390 said:
So what, you call Temperton a liar ? you could be skeptical, but that still the best source we could have about the role and influence of Jackson in his own albums, far more that the others.

I am just saying that people (who talk during such events) deliberately exaggerate a lot for obvious promotional purposes.
 
Thriller sold 6 million copies in two weeks in 1983? Then another million in two Days??

Never knew the extent of just how crazy fast it sold.
 
mj_frenzy;4236411 said:
Court decided to list eventually Dibango’s name in Rihanna’s ‘Don't Stop The Music’.

This proves that Dibango’s hook required permission from the very beginning.

Yes and he have lost badly in court, not onely with Rihanna, but against Akon and Jackson too in different cases, that don't mean "Dibango hook required permission"; that mean he have already done a deal with Jackson, it was more or less the same sitation with Huey Lewis/Ray Park Jr, except they have a better context and case than Dibango; for Rihanna/Dibango google translate if you don't read french, he have lost:

https://www.legossip.net/michael-jackson-rihanna-manu-dibango/37561/

http://www.tropicalizer.com/2009/02...ne-seront-pas-inquietes-par-manu-dibango.html

mj_frenzy;4236411 said:
Also, about the ‘Billie Jean’ bassline, Daryl Hall knew that MJ was at fault, but Hall found it unwise to fight legally for the case because MJ at the time was too powerful to be defeated.

So, Hall back then just said that he did not mind.

Have you a source for that ? Because for what I have read they don't don't care because the bass are very different, I like the term Anderson have used, "cross-pollination", that what we have.



mj_frenzy;4236411 said:
‘Thriller’ did not sell 32 million copies worldwide in 1983 alone.

Here is a more analytical view of the worldwide sales of the ‘Thriller’ album regarding that particular period:

13 million by November 11th, 1983
14 million by December 4th, 1983
20 million by December 18th, 1983
21 million by December 20th, 1983
23 million by January 27th, 1984
25 million by February 7th, 1984

The above figures come from EPIC/CBS, Billboard but also from other media outlets.

As you can see, a month (December) was more than enough to have a real influence on that album’s sales.

Have you an direct official source for that ? in the web your numbers are from Chartmaster, for me that nothing official and are not credible (lot of big mistake in their articles), despite their claim, I don't believe their numbers (I don't have found them in Billboard), far less than Guiness Records (they are the one source, with Epic, who give officially worldwide sales, nobody else), also keep in mind to give an award take time, they don't give that one week or one month before.

I have seen the numbers from the video in Feb 1984, in fact it was 25 millions for the Guiness awards, maybe they have changed to 32 millions to includes the sales from December thanks the boost from Thriller music video ? that would be crazy numbers for just one month but that true that the music video was really big, maybe there were missing the sales from the last months (Oct/Nov/December for ex.) or doesn't have the complete sales from the differents countries, keep in mind that it was before internet and they probably didn't count the sales each weeks, still today we can't do that; I don't know, but regardless these numbers, it was already the biggest selling album during 1983, according the Guiness.

Also Billboard have just access of the sales from the US, not worldwide, and I think during this time, they doesn't count numbers sales, but just the top 100, for the number ones albums/singles etc...

Look, lot of peoples ( Michael's Essence etc...) have also given you various sources, including video, with John Landis etc..., who have said it was already the best selling album before the shooting, so before mi-October, Landis for ex. have nothing to gain to say that.

Ans unlike Fuzball say, Landis have never given numbers 30 years later, but unlike the rolling stones articles with numbers he have quoted, Landis was in direct contact with Jackson and the head of Epic records, and I think he can easily remember if it was already the biggest selling album.


mj_frenzy;4236411 said:
Reports from the ‘Thriller’ era emphasized Dileo’s role in the ‘Thriller’ video (including Dileo’s idea about the video).

These reports came out in real time, & before what MJ claimed about that years later in the Moonwalk book, or before other people’s words that tried to refute that.

Please give your sources, for the moments we have two quotes, with two different peoples who have said the opposite of Dileo, he was also not in the official credits for Thriller music video.


mj_frenzy;4236411 said:
I am just saying that people (who talk during such events) deliberately exaggerate a lot for obvious promotional purposes.

That don't change the fact that Temperton or Jones, are the most credible sources; specially Temperton because he was not really present in public eyes, he have never tried to be nice or milk the Jackson name, and he have enough royalties from various songs and with all his success with various artists, he don't need to do something like that for promotional purposes.
 
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blair;4236415 said:
Yes and he have lost badly in court, not onely with Rihanna, but against Akon and Jackson too in different cases, that don't mean "Dibango hook required permission"; that mean he have already done a deal with Jackson, it was more or less the same sitation with Huey Lewis/Ray Park Jr, except they have a better context and case than Dibango; for Rihanna/Dibango google translate if you don't read french, he have lost:

https://www.legossip.net/michael-jackson-rihanna-manu-dibango/37561/

http://www.tropicalizer.com/2009/02...ne-seront-pas-inquietes-par-manu-dibango.html

MJ decided to compensate Dibango out of court.

People who decide to compensate out of court are normally at fault.

Here we have also MJ’s admission that he took the hook, not just that he was inspired by it.

blair;4236415 said:
Have you a source for that ? Because for what I have read they don't don't care because the bass are very different, I like the term Anderson have used, "cross-pollination", that what we have.

It has been strongly hinted throughout the years that Hall decided not to fight given MJ’s powerful legal team.

blair;4236415 said:
Have you an direct official source for that ? in the web your numbers are from Chartmaster, for me that nothing official and are not credible (lot of big mistake in their articles), despite their claim, I don't believe their numbers (I don't have found them in Billboard), far less than Guiness Records (they are the one source, with Epic, who give officially worldwide sales, nobody else), also keep in mind to give an award take time, they don't give that one week or one month before.

I have seen the numbers from the video in Feb 1984, in fact it was 25 millions for the Guiness awards, maybe they have changed to 32 millions to includes the sales from December thanks the boost from Thriller music video ? that would be crazy numbers for just one month but that true that the music video was really big, maybe there were missing the sales from the last months (Oct/Nov/December for ex.) or doesn't have the complete sales from the differents countries, keep in mind that it was before internet and they probably didn't count the sales each weeks, still today we can't do that; I don't know, but regardless these numbers, it was already the biggest selling album during 1983, according the Guiness.

Also Billboard have just access of the sales from the US, not worldwide, and I think during this time, they doesn't count numbers sales, but just the top 100, for the number ones albums/singles etc...

Look, lot of peoples ( Michael's Essence etc...) have also given you various sources, including video, with John Landis etc..., who have said it was already the best selling album before the shooting, so before mi-October, Landis for ex. have nothing to gain to say that.

Ans unlike Fuzball say, Landis have never given numbers 30 years later, but unlike the rolling stones articles with numbers he have quoted, Landis was in direct contact with Jackson and the head of Epic records, and I think he can easily remember if it was already the biggest selling album.

I have confirmed the numbers of worldwide sales of ‘Thriller’ also from Adrian Grant’s ‘A Visual Documentary’ book:

On February 7th (1984), ‘Thriller’ passed the 25 million mark & it became the biggest selling album of all time in recording history.

On March 15th (1984), ‘Thriller’ passed the 30 million mark.

By June (1984), its sales were allocated as follows (exceeding 30 million):

Biggest territories in terms of sales:

- America, 20 million
- Canada, 2.2 million
- Britain, 2 million
- France, 1.8 million
- Germany, 0.8 million
- Japan, 0.7 million
- etc

About John Landis, he is either confused, or he simply exaggerates.

blair;4236415 said:
Please give your sources, for the moments we have two quotes, with two different peoples who have said the opposite of Dileo, he was also not in the official credits for Thriller music video.

Frank Dileo stated that also before MJ’s death (in 2007).

“… Actually, he [MJ] only wanted to do two videos, ‘Billie Jean’ and ‘Beat It’. So while I was still working for EPIC, Larry Stessel asked me to fly out there and talk him into doing ‘Thriller,’ because he was pretty adamant that he wouldn’t do it …” (Frank Dileo, 2007)

Larry Stessel was one of EPIC’s top executives at the time of the ‘Thriller’ video.

Also, news reports from that era confirmed that, too.

blair;4236415 said:
That don't change the fact that Temperton or Jones, are the most credible sources; specially Temperton because he was not really present in public eyes, he have never tried to be nice or milk the Jackson name, and he have enough royalties from various songs and with all his success with various artists, he don't need to do something like that for promotional purposes.

My issue with such events is that they avoid mentioning unfavourable facts.

For example, Quincy Jones, or Rod Temperton avoid here mentioning cases of musicians who contributed to those three albums (‘Off The Wall', ‘Thriller’, BAD’) but eventually were not credited.

For me, that is biased information.
 
mj_frenzy;4236484 said:
MJ decided to compensate Dibango out of court.

People who decide to compensate out of court are normally at fault.

Here we have also MJ’s admission that he took the hook, not just that he was inspired by it.

"normally at fault" mean nothing in this situation, that case by case, for example Jackson/Chandler; that don't mean Jackson was guilty, peoples compensate out of court to avoid years of disagreement.

Took the hook and changed that to be extremely different, like two link youtube I have posted for the comparaison, it's the definition of the inspiration.



mj_frenzy;4236484 said:
It has been strongly hinted throughout the years that Hall decided not to fight given MJ’s powerful legal team.

That not true, and Jackson have changed that enough to avoid any problem; from Hall himself:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...e-made-i-cant-go-for-that-no-can-do-interview

"I got talking to Michael Jackson and he said: “I hope you don’t mind. I stole the groove from I Can’t Go for That for my song Billie Jean.” I told him: “Oh Michael, what do I care? You did it very differently.”

I can’t say I’d ever noticed but he was quite insistent. Of course, I went away and listened to Billie Jean. And sure enough, it was our groove."

He admitted himself he don't have noticed the similarity, and he was cool with that because it was different, like for Dibango.



mj_frenzy;4236484 said:
I have confirmed the numbers of worldwide sales of ‘Thriller’ also from Adrian Grant’s ‘A Visual Documentary’ book:

On February 7th (1984), ‘Thriller’ passed the 25 million mark & it became the biggest selling album of all time in recording history.

On March 15th (1984), ‘Thriller’ passed the 30 million mark.

By June (1984), its sales were allocated as follows (exceeding 30 million):

Biggest territories in terms of sales:

- America, 20 million
- Canada, 2.2 million
- Britain, 2 million
- France, 1.8 million
- Germany, 0.8 million
- Japan, 0.7 million
- etc

About John Landis, he is either confused, or he simply exaggerates.

Grant is imo not an authority, I don't know where he have found his numbers (media, journal ?) and he was not present during these times, the Guiness Record is the ones who give the award so they are the direct source, and for Landis, I doubt he is confused, the guy was the producer of a music video who have been created to boost more sales, I think he is aware if Thriller was already the best selling album, in fact, he have all the reasons to say the opposite and to give to himself the credit about that.


mj_frenzy;4236484 said:
Frank Dileo stated that also before MJ’s death (in 2007).

“… Actually, he [MJ] only wanted to do two videos, ‘Billie Jean’ and ‘Beat It’. So while I was still working for EPIC, Larry Stessel asked me to fly out there and talk him into doing ‘Thriller,’ because he was pretty adamant that he wouldn’t do it …” (Frank Dileo, 2007)

Larry Stessel was one of EPIC’s top executives at the time of the ‘Thriller’ video.

Also, news reports from that era confirmed that, too.

The problem, well, that again from Dileo himself, but now he seem to give the credit to Stessel for this decision ? So it's him or Stessel ? That weird because that contradict what the others peoples have said, that it was Epic side who doesn't wanted another video, and sorry but that absolutely no sense to fight against Jackson to do another video, but in the same time to fight against him about the budget, I mean; Jackson and Landis have financed the project themselves !!! so for me, for these reasons, Dileo is not credible, also Landis have confirmed it was Epic who doesn't want another music video, now they (the Epic team) accuse Jackson ? Yes, That absolutely no sense.



mj_frenzy;4236484 said:
My issue with such events is that they avoid mentioning unfavourable facts.

Maybe there are nothing more to say.

mj_frenzy;4236484 said:
For example, Quincy Jones, or Rod Temperton avoid here mentioning cases of musicians who contributed to those three albums (‘Off The Wall', ‘Thriller’, BAD’) but eventually were not credited.

Like who for example ? I will quote Quincy about this subject, because sometimes, there are confusion about that; when they don't take any credit, for example:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/...on-the-making-of-michael-jacksons-bad-117216/

"And it takes total loyalty to the songs. All my musicians think that way. Even if it’s not their song, they’ve got something to add to it. Like, remember James Ingram’s “One Hundred Ways?” I had tried to record that with George Benson. But it didn’t have a C section, and that’s what stopped me for George. For James, Rod went into another room and in an hour he wrote a C section. He didn’t put his name on it, didn’t ask for any credits. That’s the kind of dedication you have to have, or God will not answer the phone."

Or another fact, Jackson and Jones have written together Got the Hots, but have given all the credit to Rod Temperton/Garett etc..., when they have transformed the song into "Baby got it bad" with no mention of their names, or when Jackson have helped to transform Starlight into Thriller with the horror theme (according Philligane) with the weird sound etc...he doesn't have any credit for that too, maybe because that a normal thing inside the music industry to do that (to help etc...).

mj_frenzy;4236484 said:
For me, that is biased information.

Well that the best you can have, a direct source with peoples who have created these albums with him, that far better than...Dileo for example.
 
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blair;4236490 said:
"normally at fault" mean nothing in this situation, that case by case, for example Jackson/Chandler; that don't mean Jackson was guilty, peoples compensate out of court to avoid years of disagreement.

Took the hook and changed that to be extremely different, like two link youtube I have posted for the comparaison, it's the definition of the inspiration.

That not true, and Jackson have changed that enough to avoid any problem; from Hall himself:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...e-made-i-cant-go-for-that-no-can-do-interview

"I got talking to Michael Jackson and he said: “I hope you don’t mind. I stole the groove from I Can’t Go for That for my song Billie Jean.” I told him: “Oh Michael, what do I care? You did it very differently.”

I can’t say I’d ever noticed but he was quite insistent. Of course, I went away and listened to Billie Jean. And sure enough, it was our groove."

He admitted himself he don't have noticed the similarity, and he was cool with that because it was different, like for Dibango.

I have a question personally for you:

If you did not do anything wrong, would you compensate out of court?

Dibango won in both occasions, firstly he was compensated out of court by MJ, secondly he was listed in Rihanna’s song.

Not to mention MJ’s admission about the hook.

In Hall’s case. MJ was even quoted as saying to have stolen it.

blair;4236490 said:
Grant is imo not an authority, I don't know where he have found his numbers (media, journal ?) and he was not present during these times, the Guiness Record is the ones who give the award so they are the direct source, and for Landis, I doubt he is confused, the guy was the producer of a music video who have been created to boost more sales, I think he is aware if Thriller was already the best selling album, in fact, he have all the reasons to say the opposite and to give to himself the credit about that.

There is a whole team of experienced researchers who gathered & confirmed the information included in Adrian Grant’s ‘A Visual Documentary’ book (Gloria Haydock, Lisa Campbell, among others).

The number of 25 million copies on February 7th (1984) can be easily verified by many other books that you conveniently avoid.

blair;4236490 said:
The problem, well, that again from Dileo himself, but now he seem to give the credit to Stessel for this decision ? So it's him or Stessel ? That weird because that contradict what the others peoples have said, that it was Epic side who doesn't wanted another video, and sorry but that absolutely no sense to fight against Jackson to do another video, but in the same time to fight against him about the budget, I mean; Jackson and Landis have financed the project themselves !!! so for me, for these reasons, Dileo is not credible, also Landis have confirmed it was Epic who doesn't want another music video, now they (the Epic team) accuse Jackson ? Yes, That absolutely no sense.

It was Frank Dileo’s idea the ‘Thriller’ video, but he was also the one who had to convince MJ about that (because MJ was initially very reluctant about shooting it given his Jehovah's Witnesses’ beliefs).

blair;4236490 said:
Maybe there are nothing more to say.

Like who for example ? I will quote Quincy about this subject, because sometimes, there are confusion about that; when they don't take any credit, for example:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/...on-the-making-of-michael-jacksons-bad-117216/

"And it takes total loyalty to the songs. All my musicians think that way. Even if it’s not their song, they’ve got something to add to it. Like, remember James Ingram’s “One Hundred Ways?” I had tried to record that with George Benson. But it didn’t have a C section, and that’s what stopped me for George. For James, Rod went into another room and in an hour he wrote a C section. He didn’t put his name on it, didn’t ask for any credits. That’s the kind of dedication you have to have, or God will not answer the phone."

Or another fact, Jackson and Jones have written together Got the Hots, but have given all the credit to Rod Temperton/Garett etc..., when they have transformed the song into "Baby got it bad" with no mention of their names, or when Jackson have helped to transform Starlight into Thriller with the horror theme (according Philligane) with the weird sound etc...he doesn't have any credit for that too, maybe because that a normal thing inside the music industry to do that (to help etc...).

Well that the best you can have, a direct source with peoples who have created these albums with him, that far better than...Dileo for example.

Like keyboardist Greg Phillinganes, to whom MJ should have given co-writing credit for the ‘Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough’ song, as Quincy Jones stated.
 
mj_frenzy;4236565 said:
I have a question personally for you:

If you did not do anything wrong, would you compensate out of court?

Dibango won in both occasions, firstly he was compensated out of court by MJ, secondly he was listed in Rihanna’s song.

Not to mention MJ’s admission about the hook.

In Hall’s case. MJ was even quoted as saying to have stolen it.

Yes I will compensate if that take years to resolve a case, you should remember that it was a regional problem, in fact Dibango have asked the justice from France not the USA in the 80's, so Michael was not present, it was probably also Epic decision and their representant in this country, you should remember that France is a socialist country with very different rules than the ones from USA, it was wise to avoid that.

Michael have admitted the inspiration, not the plagiarism (sorry in french):

http://www.purepeople.com/article/m...e-michael-jackson-un-proces-a-la-clef_a4184/1

"Dibango décide donc d' intenter une procédure devant les tribunaux pour faire constater le plagiat de Michael Jackson. Celle-ci n' aura finalement pas lieu : Bambi niera le plagiat, admettra s'être inspiré de Soul Makossa et le différend sera réglé à l' amiable, moyennant finances."

And again Dibango don't won, if he was really the owners of the lyrics, he should have fight to have more, also see my links, he have lost against Rihanna but also Jackson and Akon, he is also not listed in Rihanna music or album, he was not present during the trial so this decision have been rejected; probably because he was not happy with the court decision to just have a special mention in credit for France (so not in other countries) and nothing more (it was not what he have asked) with no money or royalties; he have tried to ask again the court for 500 000 euros for Rihanna, but he have been rejected:

http://www.purepeople.com/article/m...t-chanter-manu-dibango-a-ete-deboute_a25310/1


For Hall see the interview I have posted, for him that not a copy, you should read the interviews/articles I have posted, that will help you for the discussion, also about the difference between inspiration and to stole something.



mj_frenzy;4236565 said:
There is a whole team of experienced researchers who gathered & confirmed the information included in Adrian Grant’s ‘A Visual Documentary’ book (Gloria Haydock, Lisa Campbell, among others).

The number of 25 million copies on February 7th (1984) can be easily verified by many other books that you conveniently avoid.

I prefer to take the most direct source of Guiness and Landis, the first give the awards, so they are more aware if it was the best selling album in 1983 like they have said if their official website, and the other is Landis, a man was present during and have worked directly with MJ.


mj_frenzy;4236565 said:
It was Frank Dileo’s idea the ‘Thriller’ video, but he was also the one who had to convince MJ about that (because MJ was initially very reluctant about shooting it given his Jehovah's Witnesses’ beliefs).

No the problem with his faith was later, see the various interviews.


mj_frenzy;4236565 said:
Like keyboardist Greg Phillinganes, to whom MJ should have given co-writing credit for the ‘Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough’ song, as Quincy Jones stated.

Read the interviews I have posted to explain the dedication in music according Jones himself, so I guess he have stolen Temperton too ? about this interview, that the same where he have insulted everybody, that have caused the interventions of his owns daughters, he is very old and not really himself today, he have clearly exaggerated; in fact we have the ‘Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough’ demo and it was identical to the final product, also you are wrong because Philliganes was credited for the arrangement, wich was basically his work; in other hand Michael don't have been credited to arrangement for PYT (according Ingram) or Thriller, but again that normal to help for the music (see my previous post), to be dedicated like Jones have said.

For Jones interview:

https://hauteliving.com/2018/02/quincy-jones-daughters-intervention/652248/

his twitter:

https://twitter.com/QuincyDJones/st...2/quincy-jones-daughters-intervention/652248/

"When you’ve been fortunate enough to have lived such a long and crazy life (and you’ve recently stopped drinking three years ago!), certain details about specific events (which do NOT paint the full picture of my intentions nor experiences) come flooding back all at once, and even at 85, it’s apparent that ‘word vomit’ and bad-mouthing is inexcusable."

So don't take reference to this interview, when the man himself have retracted and is sorry about that.
 
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blair;4236570 said:
Yes I will compensate if that take years to resolve a case, you should remember that it was a regional problem, in fact Dibango have asked the justice from France not the USA in the 80's, so Michael was not present, it was probably also Epic decision and their representant in this country, you should remember that France is a socialist country with very different rules than the ones from USA, it was wise to avoid that.

Michael have admitted the inspiration, not the plagiarism (sorry in french):

http://www.purepeople.com/article/m...e-michael-jackson-un-proces-a-la-clef_a4184/1

"Dibango décide donc d' intenter une procédure devant les tribunaux pour faire constater le plagiat de Michael Jackson. Celle-ci n' aura finalement pas lieu : Bambi niera le plagiat, admettra s'être inspiré de Soul Makossa et le différend sera réglé à l' amiable, moyennant finances."

And again Dibango don't won, if he was really the owners of the lyrics, he should have fight to have more, also see my links, he have lost against Rihanna but also Jackson and Akon, he is also not listed in Rihanna music or album, he was not present during the trial so this decision have been rejected; probably because he was not happy with the court decision to just have a special mention in credit for France (so not in other countries) and nothing more (it was not what he have asked) with no money or royalties; he have tried to ask again the court for 500 000 euros for Rihanna, but he have been rejected:

http://www.purepeople.com/article/m...t-chanter-manu-dibango-a-ete-deboute_a25310/1


For Hall see the interview I have posted, for him that not a copy, you should read the interviews/articles I have posted, that will help you for the discussion, also about the difference between inspiration and to stole something.

You get lost in too many trivial details.

The truth of the matter is that Dibango won the case against MJ by getting an undisclosed percentage of sales of the ‘Thriller’ album in France.

I have confirmed that information also by the ‘Michael Jackson : All The Songs, The Story Behind Every Track’ book (by Richard Lecocq & François Allard).

Dibango also got credits in Rihanna’s song which is considered a win for him, too.

Also, about Hall’s case, apart from MJ’s own admission, there were also other various accounts about the fact that MJ lifted the bassline.

MJ never disputed those accounts.

blair;4236570 said:
I prefer to take the most direct source of Guiness and Landis, the first give the awards, so they are more aware if it was the best selling album in 1983 like they have said if their official website, and the other is Landis, a man was present during and have worked directly with MJ.

The books I mentioned, but also many others, took that number (of 25 million copies on February 7th, 1984) from direct, reliable sources.

blair;4236570 said:
No the problem with his faith was later, see the various interviews.

MJ’s was an active Jehovah's Witness before, during & after the period of the ‘Thriller’ video.

One of the problems was that his faith did not allow MJ to have excessive make-up on his face for being turned into a monster for the role.

blair;4236570 said:
Read the interviews I have posted to explain the dedication in music according Jones himself, so I guess he have stolen Temperton too ? about this interview, that the same where he have insulted everybody, that have caused the interventions of his owns daughters, he is very old and not really himself today, he have clearly exaggerated; in fact we have the ‘Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough’ demo and it was identical to the final product, also you are wrong because Philliganes was credited for the arrangement, wich was basically his work; in other hand Michael don't have been credited to arrangement for PYT (according Ingram) or Thriller, but again that normal to help for the music (see my previous post), to be dedicated like Jones have said.

For Jones interview:

https://hauteliving.com/2018/02/quincy-jones-daughters-intervention/652248/

his twitter:

https://twitter.com/QuincyDJones/st...2/quincy-jones-daughters-intervention/652248/

"When you’ve been fortunate enough to have lived such a long and crazy life (and you’ve recently stopped drinking three years ago!), certain details about specific events (which do NOT paint the full picture of my intentions nor experiences) come flooding back all at once, and even at 85, it’s apparent that ‘word vomit’ and bad-mouthing is inexcusable."

So don't take reference to this interview, when the man himself have retracted and is sorry about that.

Quincy Jones did not take back later (through Twitter) what he said about the song in that interview.
 
mj_frenzy;4236688 said:
You get lost in too many trivial details.

That not trivial details, but conclusions from judgements in France.

mj_frenzy;4236688 said:
The truth of the matter is that Dibango won the case against MJ by getting an undisclosed percentage of sales of the ‘Thriller’ album in France.

That wrong, there were no case to have won or not, there were no trial, just a settlement between two parties, also there are no percentage from sales, according Dibango himself, it was just 1 millions francs, more or less 200 000 dollars, so not lot of money.

http://www.leparisien.fr/loisirs-et...hael-jackson-en-justice-17-01-2009-376723.php

https://www.journalducameroun.com/musique-manu-dibango-michael-jackson-et-rihanna-au-tribunal/

Après plusieurs années de négociations avec les représentants de Michael Jackson, les deux parties vont trouver un terrain d’entente avec la signature en 1986, d’un accord d’indemnisation. Manu Dibango et son éditeur recevront chacun un montant de 1 million de francs. L’artiste camerounais renoncera par la même occasion à ses droits sur la chanson « wanna be startin’ something », mais gardera le contrôle sur les futures reprises ou adaptations de « soul makossa ».

mj_frenzy;4236688 said:
I have confirmed that information also by the ‘Michael Jackson : All The Songs, The Story Behind Every Track’ book (by Richard Lecocq & François Allard).

Lot of books give false informations, specially from France.

mj_frenzy;4236688 said:
Dibango also got credits in Rihanna’s song which is considered a win for him, too.

So explain why he have chosen to not come to the final judgment and let this "win" to be lost ? Because maybe you don't know but he have lost the right to have this special credit, again see my links; and the credits don't mean there are a plagiarism or not (it was not the question during the trial), but more if MJ or should have warned Dibango about the futur use of the famous "mama say..." in new songs, and if that not breaks their deal; if you want the judgement have just cut the apple in two with the credits in France, but with no financial compensation, no money, no royalties; and that exactly the reason why Dibango have tried, and failed, to ask 500 000 euros and royalties in a new case.

mj_frenzy;4236688 said:
Also, about Hall’s case, apart from MJ’s own admission, there were also other various accounts about the fact that MJ lifted the bassline.

MJ never disputed those accounts.

That not mean that a direct copy, that just an inspiration, see the various interviews I have posted.


mj_frenzy;4236688 said:
The books I mentioned, but also many others, took that number (of 25 million copies on February 7th, 1984) from direct, reliable sources.

the direct source is Guiness and Landis, again see my links; the numbers and the date you have given is just the ones from the ceremony...made by the Guiness.


mj_frenzy;4236688 said:
MJ’s was an active Jehovah's Witness before, during & after the period of the ‘Thriller’ video.

One of the problems was that his faith did not allow MJ to have excessive make-up on his face for being turned into a monster for the role..

That not what the chronology of the events have said, see the various interviews, the problem was after, see Landis comment about Lugosi, and it was Michael idea to be a monster, and he has already been with excessive make-up during the Wiz.

mj_frenzy;4236688 said:
Quincy Jones did not take back later (through Twitter) what he said about the song in that interview.

His excuses say that he was not really himself, that should indicate you shouldn't take this interview seriously.
 
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blair;4236693 said:
That not trivial details, but conclusions from judgements in France.

That wrong, there were no case to have won or not, there were no trial, just a settlement between two parties, also there are no percentage from sales, according Dibango himself, it was just 1 millions francs, more or less 200 000 dollars, so not lot of money.

http://www.leparisien.fr/loisirs-et...hael-jackson-en-justice-17-01-2009-376723.php

https://www.journalducameroun.com/musique-manu-dibango-michael-jackson-et-rihanna-au-tribunal/

Après plusieurs années de négociations avec les représentants de Michael Jackson, les deux parties vont trouver un terrain d’entente avec la signature en 1986, d’un accord d’indemnisation. Manu Dibango et son éditeur recevront chacun un montant de 1 million de francs. L’artiste camerounais renoncera par la même occasion à ses droits sur la chanson « wanna be startin’ something », mais gardera le contrôle sur les futures reprises ou adaptations de « soul makossa ».

I use the term ‘case’ broadly, meaning I refer to the whole Dibango/MJ conflict.

Dibango is not allowed to reveal what he fully got (from MJ) because that was part of their financial settlement.

Also, these several articles that you posted cannot have full access to the details of that settlement.

blair;4236693 said:
So explain why he have chosen to not come to the final judgment and let this "win" to be lost ? Because maybe you don't know but he have lost the right to have this special credit, again see my links; and the credits don't mean there are a plagiarism or not (it was not the question during the trial), but more if MJ or should have warned Dibango about the futur use of the famous "mama say..." in new songs, and if that not breaks their deal; if you want the judgement have just cut the apple in two with the credits in France, but with no financial compensation, no money, no royalties; and that exactly the reason why Dibango have tried, and failed, to ask 500 000 euros and royalties in a new case.

Apparently, the Rihanna’s court case was linked to the first settlement for reasons we both do not know.

blair;4236693 said:
That not mean that a direct copy, that just an inspiration, see the various interviews I have posted.

I will not reiterate what I have already said about that.

If you still like to believe that the bassline was simply an inspiration, I am fine with that.

blair;4236693 said:
Lot of books give false informations, specially from France.

This does not necessarily mean that this particular information (of 25 million copies) is not correct.

blair;4236693 said:
That not what the chronology of the events have said, see the various interviews, the problem was after, see Landis comment about Lugosi, and it was Michael idea to be a monster, and he has already been with excessive make-up during the Wiz.

What exactly is the chronology of the events according to you?

blair;4236693 said:
the direct source is Guiness and Landis, again see my links; the numbers and the date you have given is just the ones from the ceremony...made by the Guiness.

Allen Davis, President of CBS Records International at the time, confirmed also the number of 25 million copies.

blair;4236693 said:
His excuses say that he was not really himself, that should indicate you shouldn't take this interview seriously.

If what he said about the song was untrue, he would have taken it back explicitly later.
 
mj_frenzy;4236790 said:
I use the term ‘case’ broadly, meaning I refer to the whole Dibango/MJ conflict.

Dibango is not allowed to reveal what he fully got (from MJ) because that was part of their financial settlement.

Also, these several articles that you posted cannot have full access to the details of that settlement.

No Dibango has nothing more, he have divulged the price because for him the contract was break with these news songs; for the articles that weird because there were freely available, but everything was in the quote I have posted, so no right about this song except the money, and they considered the two songs like different entities (jackson keep all the rights about WBSS, Dibango for Soul Makossa).



mj_frenzy;4236790 said:
Apparently, the Rihanna’s court case was linked to the first settlement for reasons we both do not know.

Yes that true, we don't know all the details.


mj_frenzy;4236790 said:
I will not reiterate what I have already said about that.

If you still like to believe that the bassline was simply an inspiration, I am fine with that.

It's not what I believe or not, but the quote from Darryl Hall himself.


mj_frenzy;4236790 said:
This does not necessarily mean that this particular information (of 25 million copies) is not correct.

I have never said it was incorrect, I say they were not a sure source.



mj_frenzy;4236790 said:
What exactly is the chronology of the events according to you?

That the problem with the Jeovah witness was very late in the production, for him it was not a problem before (he has already done a music with horror element, this place hotel; and a music video when he is more or less a ghost with Billie Jean), or some months laters (see all the duets he have done with occult/horror theme; or the black magic sequence during the Victory tour); the fact he have apparently given quickly his excuses to Landis tend to prove that he don't have trusted/followed the order of these priests about this subject and it was just a very short religious crisis.



mj_frenzy;4236790 said:
Allen Davis, President of CBS Records International at the time, confirmed also the number of 25 million copies.

Sure, like the Guiness before they have changed their numbers, whatever if it's 25 or 32, it was already the best selling album during the year 1983.


mj_frenzy;4236790 said:
If what he said about the song was untrue, he would have taken it back explicitly later.

When someone say "I was not myself"; it's not necessary to ask him to take back explicitly his words; it's not something very delicate to ask to an very old man, we have the home demo to know if it's true or not, that clearly untrue, the demo and the song are identical.
 
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blair;4237243 said:
No Dibango has nothing more, he have divulged the price because for him the contract was break with these news songs; for the articles that weird because there were freely available, but everything was in the quote I have posted, so no right about this song except the money, and they considered the two songs like different entities (jackson keep all the rights about WBSS, Dibango for Soul Makossa).

Yes that true, we don't know all the details.

It's not what I believe or not, but the quote from Darryl Hall himself.

Okay, let’s agree to disagree about Dibango & Hall.

blair;4237243 said:
I have never said it was incorrect, I say they were not a sure source.

Sure, like the Guiness before they have changed their numbers, whatever if it's 25 or 32, it was already the best selling album during the year 1983.

‘Thriller’ was not the biggest selling album of all time in 1983.

It became in February (1984), as confirmed also by the The Guinness Book of World Records ceremony that took place in that month.

Anything else that suggests otherwise is misleading.

blair;4237243 said:
That the problem with the Jeovah witness was very late in the production, for him it was not a problem before (he has already done a music with horror element, this place hotel; and a music video when he is more or less a ghost with Billie Jean), or some months laters (see all the duets he have done with occult/horror theme; or the black magic sequence during the Victory tour); the fact he have apparently given quickly his excuses to Landis tend to prove that he don't have trusted/followed the order of these priests about this subject and it was just a very short religious crisis.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses problem was not just a very short religious crisis that took place very late in the production of the ‘Thriller’ video.

It actually had been a long-standing problem even before the ‘Thriller’ video, when leaders of Jehovah’s Witnesses did not generally approve the pop image that he was projecting.

Leaders of Jehovah’s Witnesses thought that MJ was not a good role model for people (also because of his use of make-up that made him look slightly effeminate, both on stage but also off stage).

The last straw was that ‘Thriller’ video that made leaders infuriated with him, to the point where MJ even regretted having released it.

blair;4237243 said:
When someone say "I was not myself"; it's not necessary to ask him to take back explicitly his words; it's not something very delicate to ask to an very old man, we have the home demo to know if it's true or not, that clearly untrue, the demo and the song are identical.

The demo & the official version of the song are not identical.

Greg Phillinganes came up later with the instrumental break (that can be heard in the middle of the song).

The demo does not have that instrumental part.
 
mj_frenzy;4237307 said:
Okay, let’s agree to disagree about Dibango & Hall.



‘Thriller’ was not the biggest selling album of all time in 1983.

It became in February (1984), as confirmed also by the The Guinness Book of World Records ceremony that took place in that month.

Anything else that suggests otherwise is misleading.

See my previous quotes, from the Guiness website too, I don't need to repeat myself.



mj_frenzy;4237307 said:
The Jehovah’s Witnesses problem was not just a very short religious crisis that took place very late in the production of the ‘Thriller’ video.

It actually had been a long-standing problem even before the ‘Thriller’ video, when leaders of Jehovah’s Witnesses did not generally approve the pop image that he was projecting.

Leaders of Jehovah’s Witnesses thought that MJ was not a good role model for people (also because of his use of make-up that made him look slightly effeminate, both on stage but also off stage).

The last straw was that ‘Thriller’ video that made leaders infuriated with him, to the point where MJ even regretted having released it.


So for them it was not just a problem with this music video; so what ? For the word "problem" I don't talk about the Jehovah withnesses, but about MJ with this music video, so for him it was a very short religious crisis because he have accepted to realease and promote the music video, it was no more a problem for him some days later and he have excused himself to Landis and co; you should read my post, I have already explained that.


mj_frenzy;4237307 said:
The demo & the official version of the song are not identical.

Greg Phillinganes came up later with the instrumental break (that can be heard in the middle of the song).

The demo does not have that instrumental part.

Musically it was identical, of course there are not the "instrumental break" because it's a very early demo...with minimal instruments, also Phillinganes have been credited for his job (rythm arrangement), not sure if it was him or not for this "break" or he have just helped him, well this very short section that don't deserve the credit to be co-author, that just the part of the music arrangement (or to be dedicated to help, like Temperton with the section C for the music "Hundred ways", see the quote from Jones I have posted).
 
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blair;4237321 said:
See my previous quotes, from the Guiness website too, I don't need to repeat myself.

So for them it was not just a problem with this music video; so what ? For the word "problem" I don't talk about the Jehovah withnesses, but about MJ with this music video, so for him it was a very short religious crisis because he have accepted to realease and promote the music video, it was no more a problem for him some days later and he have excused himself to Landis and co; you should read my post, I have already explained that.

The disclaimer did not help at all & that religious crisis continued to be a problem even after the release of the ‘Thriller’ video.

So big became the problem (also because of that video) that MJ even thought to stop further distribution of that video.

Eventually, MJ being fed up with them (Jehovah’s Witnesses leaders), he decided to withdraw from the religion in 1987.

That is the actual chronology of the events.

blair;4237321 said:
Musically it was identical, of course there are not the "instrumental break" because it's a very early demo...with minimal instruments, also Phillinganes have been credited for his job (rythm arrangement), not sure if it was him or not for this "break" or he have just helped him, well this very short section that don't deserve the credit to be co-author, that just the part of the music arrangement (or to be dedicated to help, like Temperton with the section C for the music "Hundred ways", see the quote from Jones I have posted).

Sharing co-writing credits with others (Greg Phillinganes, here) would have meant for MJ sharing also royalties.

That is the reason that Greg Phillinganes was relegated to rhythm arrangements for his idea & contribution to that instrumental break (a break very crucial for the song in general).

It was a typical pattern of MJ’s behaviour to relegate or even exclude certain contributions from other musicians (up to his final studio album in 2001) because he did not want to share royalties.
 
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