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The problems with Invincible

Regarding ‘Unbreakable’ & its theme, in one of my earlier threads I stated that this song probably had to do also with his problematic relationship with his record label at that time:

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/135784-Does-%91Unbreakable%92-aim-%28also%29-at-his-record-label

So, there is also a chance (even a slim one) that the lyrics from ‘Unbreakable’, being perceived in that way by his record label, perplexed even more the things when it came to the decision of its release as a single.

I know that it sounds a bit far-fetched, but personally I think this theory cannot be entirely ignored.

Generally, I think ‘Unbreakable’ lyrically refers to many, different aspects of his life (including the aforementioned relationship) as opposed to ‘Privacy’ which has to do only with the tabloid media/press.

Finally, & despite the album’s innumerable imperfections, in my opinion ‘Unbreakable’ musically is still a powerful track that opens the album in the most dynamic way.
 
SoCav said:
I can understand your take on it and why you enjoy it given your perspective. Personally, I am not convinced that he's telling the truth. I am in the sense that he won't let them stop him from coming back, but not in the sense that "you can't get to me"/"you'll never ever hurt me"/"I'm untouchable". If anything, the fact that this is the fifth album in a row where he was writing songs about this shows that it did affect him (and again, of course I can see why it did and why he did want to write about it). I get that he wanted to put his frustration into a song, but I feel he did it much better in previous songs already.

For me it goes beyond this particular song and its lyrics though. It's hard to describe. Imo this song and a number of others on Invincible at times have a bit of an air of inauthenticity about them - musically, lyrically and/or vocally. The heavy reliance on other songwriters probably didn't help, but I really like almost all the songs he did with other songwriters before this period, so that doesn't fully explain it. It's the only MJ (& Jacksons) material that gives me that feeling at times. It's not the era overall either, as there are songs on the album and particularly some outtakes that I do really like. Some of the songs on the album just don't feel very heartfelt to me, when nornally his work shines in that regard. There's always that indefinable element, musically and vocally, that makes you feel it's Michael Jackson. Some of these songs lack that imo.
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Perfectly put.
 
Tony R said:
Exactly. That and the Privacy opening and YRMW intro are just lots of little things that just detract from it as well as the padded material.

It's not a bad pop/R&B album by any means but as a piece of work it is almost uncomparable to his other albums.
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Im back with one note- we were talking earlier in the thread about the Privacy intro, and how some of us felt it was a bit rich including a fan asking for a snapshot . Other people maintain this was still a photographer, which is very plausible.

I went for a run earlier listening to Invincible and I cant believe we failed to mention that there is also a child going "mommy mommy look its Michael Jackson" which to me is a bit worse than the casual fan asking for a snap. Bit of an oversight by us!

Still one of my more favourite songs of the album. I actually love it.
 
innuendo141 said:
Im back with one note- we were talking earlier in the thread about the Privacy intro, and how some of us felt it was a bit rich including a fan asking for a snapshot . Other people maintain this was still a photographer, which is very plausible.

I went for a run earlier listening to Invincible and I cant believe we failed to mention that there is also a child going "mommy mommy look its Michael Jackson" which to me is a bit worse than the casual fan asking for a snap. Bit of an oversight by us!

Still one of my more favourite songs of the album. I actually love it.
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I believe I mentioned it way earlier in the thread, it may have been moved to the 'Michael's decisions' thread . It's awful and a smack in the mouth.
 
Tony R said:
I believe I mentioned it way earlier in the thread, it may have been moved to the 'Michael's decisions' thread . It's awful and a smack in the mouth.
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Yeah, I thought it was you. I think it's a fan asking for the snapshot but the child completely slipped my mind. I agree with the slap in the mouth comment.
 
innuendo141 said:
Im back with one note- we were talking earlier in the thread about the Privacy intro, and how some of us felt it was a bit rich including a fan asking for a snapshot . Other people maintain this was still a photographer, which is very plausible.

I went for a run earlier listening to Invincible and I cant believe we failed to mention that there is also a child going "mommy mommy look its Michael Jackson" which to me is a bit worse than the casual fan asking for a snap. Bit of an oversight by us!
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I don't think it's a pap at all asking for the photo-I think it IS a fan. And as for the kid, didn't he do something similar in the Speed Demon video?

I think Michael would have a love/hate relationship with fans. I'm talking about the screaming, stalking, chanting, grabbing fans that he refers to in his book and old interviews as "part of the work" and compares himself to a piece of spaghetti. I do think he loved the fans and was grateful and humble for all their love and support-as well as understood it, since he was such a fan-boy himself of all the greats that came before him. But there's definitely a bad side.

I know, just watching, that fans get on my last nerve and they're not even screaming under MY window, keeping me awake all night. Can't imagine enduring that every day and night for 40 years.
 
barbee0715 said:
I don't think it's a pap at all asking for the photo-I think it IS a fan. And as for the kid, didn't he do something similar in the Speed Demon video?

I think Michael would have a love/hate relationship with fans. I'm talking about the screaming, stalking, chanting, grabbing fans that he refers to in his book and old interviews as "part of the work" and compares himself to a piece of spaghetti. I do think he loved the fans and was grateful and humble for all their love and support-as well as understood it, since he was such a fan-boy himself of all the greats that came before him. But there's definitely a bad side.

I know, just watching, that fans get on my last nerve and they're not even screaming under MY window, keeping me awake all night. Can't imagine enduring that every day and night for 40 years.
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I bet you've watched the recent fan footage version of the 30th Anniversary? There was ZERO consideration given to him while he stayed in hotels. I feel quite angry when I see fans camping outside and roaring and clapping and chanting up at him like he needs to perform for them from his bedroom.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't these roaring fans manage to get to see him personally? I've read a couple of online memoirs by fans and there was this "mafia" that would follow him everywhere in Europe (not sure if elsewhere, but probably not). They made themselves known basically.
 
FullLipsDotNose said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't these roaring fans manage to get to see him personally? I've read a couple of online memoirs by fans and there was this "mafia" that would follow him everywhere in Europe (not sure if elsewhere, but probably not). They made themselves known basically.
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I don't know, and I'm not sure what point your trying to make? If they met him personally, that means what exactly?
 
aazzaabb said:
I bet you've watched the recent fan footage version of the 30th Anniversary? There was ZERO consideration given to him while he stayed in hotels. I feel quite angry when I see fans camping outside and roaring and clapping and chanting up at him like he needs to perform for them from his bedroom.
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Yes, thanks to you putting up the YouTube link-I was going over to that thread to comment-but yeah, I was pretty irritated with that mob scene outside the hotel. They just don't stop.

I've run across a few articles or blogs or whatever they are from people who were following him around Europe-dropping out of school and work, etc. and I don't know-yes, he LOVED the fans, yes, yes, but I just think it's a total lack of respect when people are chanting and screaming and grabbing when you are not performing.
 
barbee0715 said:
Yes, thanks to you putting up the YouTube link-I was going over to that thread to comment-but yeah, I was pretty irritated with that mob scene outside the hotel. They just don't stop.

I've run across a few articles or blogs or whatever they are from people who were following him around Europe-dropping out of school and work, etc. and I don't know-yes, he LOVED the fans, yes, yes, but I just think it's a total lack of respect when people are chanting and screaming and grabbing when you are not performing.
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Yes, he loved his fans but the poor man was too polite to let them know when he needed space. It's there in Speed Demon and Privacy, didn't enjoy touring as he suffered with jet lag and insomnia and then fans outside your window, and I'm sorry but the high pitch tone a group of girls can make can be quite distressing lol, that hysteria scream is scary lol
Ah your welcome Barb, you would have found it on YouTube anyways but thanks.
 
The 30th Anniversary concert is great, and I loved the amateur footage of it because you got some incredible footage of the crowd reaction. I suppose it's the closest thing we got to an Invincible Tour concert :)
 
The 30th anniversary concert is (in my opinion) hardly complimentary towards the Invincible album or Michael's performing abilities. But that's another conversation for another thread I suppose.

What of the Grammy performance of Whatever Happens? Was that ever confirmed by any reliable source?
 
AlwaysThere said:
The 30th anniversary concert is (in my opinion) hardly complimentary towards the Invincible album or Michael's performing abilities. But that's another conversation for another thread I suppose.

What of the Grammy performance of Whatever Happens? Was that ever confirmed by any reliable source?
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I agree, It wasn't his greatest moment as a perfomer, but it was highly complimentary of the fans love and appreciation for him. The love for him in that arena is palpable and dare I say it, I would have loved to have been there on those nights, based on this latest video. The vibes are electric in that room and it was quite a moment when he got back on stage with his brothers. Not particularly something I would hold up as a candle to none-fans or casual fans, but something I found highly enjoyable as a big fan, in retrospect, in terms of this new fan shot version which is now my favourite version. If I HAD to show casuals the Anniversary show I would probably go with this amatuer version because those shows were as much about honouring him (which the crowd really do) as much as it was about MJ's performance, as flawed as they were, he pulled out some rare vocals due to playback problems, but it's sort of a beautiful mess (if that makes sense) viewing this new version.
 
aazzaabb said:
I agree, It wasn't his greatest moment as a perfomer, but it was highly complimentary of the fans love and appreciation for him. The love for him in that arena is palpable and dare I say it, I would have loved to have been there on those nights, based on this latest video. The vibes are electric in that room and it was quite a moment when he got back on stage with his brothers. Not particularly something I would hold up as a candle to none-fans or casual fans, but something I found highly enjoyable as a big fan, in retrospect, in terms of this new fan shot version which is now my favourite version. If I HAD to show casuals the Anniversary show I would probably go with this amatuer version because those shows were as much about honouring him (which the crowd really do) as much as it was about MJ's performance, as flawed as they were, he pulled out some rare vocals due to playback problems, but it's sort of a beautiful mess (if that makes sense) viewing this new version.
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Well said :yes:

The amateur version of the September 7 concert is incredible too, I'd recommend for everyone to watch it as well :D
 
Graf said:
Well said :yes:

The amateur version of the September 7 concert is incredible too, I'd recommend for everyone to watch it as well :D
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I must admit I've only watched a few bits of that September 7th concert because of my prejudice against the 30th Anniversary shows, but after watching the recent fan version my opinion had somewhat changed. The crowd were as entertaining as the show and overal it just looks like it was genuinely a wonderful experience for everyone involved and everyone lucky enough to be there. Will make September 7 Amatuer might next watch.
And I appreciated your opinion on fans at MJ's hotel earlier. Not sure why you deleted it, it was a point I can actually understand and appreciate to a certain extent.
 
aazzaabb said:
I must admit I've only watched a few bits of that September 7th concert because of my prejudice against the 30th Anniversary shows, but after watching the recent fan version my opinion had somewhat changed. The crowd were as entertaining as the show and overal it just looks like it was genuinely a wonderful experience for everyone involved and everyone lucky enough to be there. Will make September 7 Amatuer might next watch.
And I appreciated your opinion on fans at MJ's hotel earlier. Not sure why you deleted it, it was a point I can actually understand and appreciate to a certain extent.
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The fan versions have made me appreciate the 30 Anniversary shows much more as well. I really love watching any early 2000's footage because I became a fan around this time.

Heh, as for my previous comments I didn't want to completely ignore the other guests staying at the hotel. I suppose I'm just being too MJ centric :cheeky:
 
Summary so far:

1. Invincible is the only MJ adult album where fans cannot agree if it is great or not
2. Whilst there is good material to be found, most agree it is way too long
3. Most agree very poor choice of first singles
4. Most agree he recorded better material around that time that should have replaced some songs on there
5. Many really like Invincible especially iff that was the album that introduced them to Michael
6. Some seem to like it because they think they would be a lesser fan otherwise (my opinion)
7. Most seem to agree that it pales in comparison to all former works
8. Many agree that it's biggest fault is that MJ seems absent from most songs and his genius only shows in his own works e.g. Speechless
9. Even if not his best album, most agree that vocally he is stunning on it.
10. Invincible is not necessarily a bad album, it is actually a good pop and R'n'B album, but not by Michael Jackson standards.
 
aazzaabb said:
I must admit I've only watched a few bits of that September 7th concert because of my prejudice against the 30th Anniversary shows, but after watching the recent fan version my opinion had somewhat changed. The crowd were as entertaining as the show and overal it just looks like it was genuinely a wonderful experience for everyone involved and everyone lucky enough to be there. Will make September 7 Amatuer might next watch.
And I appreciated your opinion on fans at MJ's hotel earlier. Not sure why you deleted it, it was a point I can actually understand and appreciate to a certain extent.
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This was my first and only time of watching the show from a fan's point of view, but I've said it before on the official MSG release-even though the show was horrible and I cried all through it the first time watching it-the audience screamed like it was 1988. And I loved them for it.

And I really love them more now.

(Although I could do without them chanting and screaming outside the hotel-LOL )
 
aazzaabb said:
There was ZERO consideration given to him while he stayed in hotels. I feel quite angry when I see fans camping outside and roaring and clapping and chanting up at him like he needs to perform for them from his bedroom.
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in 1999, when I was in Munich for MJ & Friends concert, we also went to the hotel where he would stay, to see him when he arrived. we waited the whole day, he arrived (at around 6.30-7 pm), he walked around greeted (waved at us), all the fans standing there. and yeah, there were a lot people, of course. he went into the hotel and a while after he appeared in a window, then people started screaming, then he disappeared again, and appeared again in another window, and everyone started screaming again...it was a lot of fun...and it went on like that for HOURS

aazzaabb said:
Yes, he loved his fans but the poor man was too polite to let them know when he needed space.
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then, all of the sudden a man came out from the hotel and asked us kindly to be quiet. he (Michael) wouldn't come and wave at us anymore in the windows, and he would like some peace and quiet. he hadn't had a chance to relax since he arrived. and also for the other hotel guests, would like some peace and quiet, as well. so at that point, me and my friend decided to leave. there was no point in keep standing there and scream for him, when he wouldn't appear anymore that night, and we went to the stadium and slept outside there (it was the day before the concert). there were a lot of people who stayed outside the hotel, even after we got that message, and they'd brought sleeping bags and what not...
 
Graf said:
The 30th Anniversary concert is great, and I loved the amateur footage of it because you got some incredible footage of the crowd reaction. I suppose it's the closest thing we got to an Invincible Tour concert :)
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yeah, I agree. it's amazing concert, I've always loved it, it's always been one of my favorites. and I always have to blast it loud when I watch it, I just have to :punk:
 
aazzaabb said:
I bet you've watched the recent fan footage version of the 30th Anniversary? There was ZERO consideration given to him while he stayed in hotels. I feel quite angry when I see fans camping outside and roaring and clapping and chanting up at him like he needs to perform for them from his bedroom.
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barbee0715 said:
I've run across a few articles or blogs or whatever they are from people who were following him around Europe-dropping out of school and work, etc. and I don't know-yes, he LOVED the fans, yes, yes, but I just think it's a total lack of respect when people are chanting and screaming and grabbing when you are not performing.
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Quite the opposite, this is one of the greatest expressions of devotion to an artist!

I do not think at all that acting in this way (screaming, chanting, camping etc) has to be perceived as a total lack of consideration/respect toward MJ. Especially, the Europe-based fans were among his most loyal/devoted ones even in the '00s.

Extreme ways of adulation toward very successful singers is nothing unusual, let alone when we are referring to one of the greatest performer in music history.
 
mj_frenzy said:
Extreme ways of adulation toward very successful singers is nothing unusual, let alone when we are referring to one of the greatest performer in music history.
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The Beatles had to stop performing because of their fans. Mental.
 
AlwaysThere;4137083 said:
What of the Grammy performance of Whatever Happens? Was that ever confirmed by any reliable source?
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The fact that MJ did not perform on stage at the Grammy’s Awards has to do with Michael Greene’s policy & the conflict interests between these two events (AMA & Grammy's), rather than with the promotion of ‘Invincible’ itself.

Michael Greene, one of the Grammy’s producers, did not permit artists to perform at both events (‘American Music Awards’ & ‘Grammy’s Awards’) because of the rival character of these two ceremonies. Also, it should be noted that lack of nomination(s) did not constitute a reason that could have prevented MJ from performing at the Grammy’s because he had already one (‘Best Vocal Pop Male Performance’ for ‘You Rock My World’).

It is said that MJ, not wanting to displease Dick Clark, had already given his promise to him for his performance at the AMA Awards. Dick Clark was one of the organisers of that show & a very close friend of MJ.

According to Trudi Green (MJ’s manager at that time), MJ was not allowed to perform at the AMA because of Greene’s restriction. So, he just had to appear & get his award on stage (from Chris Tucker) which meant that he was legally still allowed to perform at the Grammy’s awards one month later (February 2002).

Eventually MJ did not perform at all at the Grammy’s ceremony in February. This led me to believe that behind the scenes, shadowy procedures (including Greene’s policies) caused MJ’s absence from the Grammy's Awards.

Lastly, as far as I know, there was never any official confirmation for any of his songs (including ‘Whatever Happens’) that MJ was going to perform at the Grammy’s Awards in 2002.
 
mj_frenzy said:
Quite the opposite, this is one of the greatest expressions of devotion to an artist!

I do not think at all that acting in this way (screaming, chanting, camping etc) has to be perceived as a total lack of consideration/respect toward MJ. Especially, the Europe-based fans were among his most loyal/devoted ones even in the '00s.

Extreme ways of adulation toward very successful singers is nothing unusual, let alone when we are referring to one of the greatest performer in music history.
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Just because something is "nothing unusual" doesn't always mean it's right. I can understand it to a point but I'm not going to justify everything as love and devotion. We wanted a piece of him that must have made his life quite hard at times.
I mean I had 5 sets of tickets for TII including opening night, first night of the second leg 2010 shows and closing night, and my goal was to get tickets for the next night on each occasion bar the last night of course, but I wanted to attend at least 10 of the concerts. In retrospect I wanted one man to deliever way too much and placed my own expectations and needs onto him.

I'm not going to justify needy obsession with devotion, the words love and devotion have a far broader meaning than fulfilling ones own individual needs and on occasion we were suffocating Michael every bit for our own ends as much as anything else. I'm not chastising people for doing this, people do it all the time, but again that doesn't always make it right either.
 
mj_frenzy said:
I do not think at all that acting in this way (screaming, chanting, camping etc) has to be perceived as a total lack of consideration/respect toward MJ.
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I think there's a balance that needs to be struck. I think screaming/chanting when he comes out on his hotel balcony is perfectly fine and remains so for a little while after.

However if they're constantly making a racket all the time - especially at night - it's not only unfair on Michael (who has a right to R&R) but it's also unfair and inconsiderate to the other guests of the hotel.
 
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