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The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and Other Theories

Re: The hoax site...

People feel pain, people are so confused ant just can't accept that he's dead. That's why they creating these hoax theories. It helps to feel better. It give hope. I believe they love Michael from the bottom of their hearts, but just sometimes it's too hard to accept such painful things.
Only time will heal. These people just need the time.
I feel deep pain too, my heart is broken, but I don't believe he's alive. It's so sad but it's true.
 
Re: The hoax site...

What annoys me about these "Michael-is-alive" theories is that some believers throw their opinion onto other fans. It happened to me today on a Russian fan site... It was like this person knows the TRUTH and the rest of us silly people are blind and have no idea. I was really upset after our conversation. And I hated all those smilies in her post, like a thousand of them, so inappropriate... :( And she even asked me what proof I have that Michael is gone. Oh man :(

For me thу biggest proof is all those lost lives of fans who killed themselves after Michael died. Michael would never ever do something like that. He's not that kind of person.
 
Re: The hoax site...

Remember Denial is one of the 7 stages of grief. The person who runs this site is probably just hurting really bad and maybe this is the only way for them to feel some comfort

Or unfortunately it might also be just someone looking for attention, which they obvoiusly got. :no:

I remember when I saw that site for the first time, I was really interested in it I was going through some major denial and I also was just looking for something to give me hope. But I haven't visited it for months I have finally accepted. Hopefully this person will too.
 
Re: The hoax site...

denial...I DO understand them, I would give anything to bring HIM back, but we have to deal with REALITY...and sites like these just hurt:(
 
Re: The hoax site...

I don't believe the hoaxes but I undertand this is the only way some fans can survive.To imagine one last hope.Sad but this is the reality and everybody deals with the tragedy in his own way.Some fans just move on with their lifes, others want to continuе Michael's legacy by making tributes and loving him even more... some just want JUSTICE for Michael's death and some still can't believe we lost him.
 
Re: The hoax site...

kathiejmie said:
What annoys me about these "Michael-is-alive" theories is that some believers throw their opinion onto other fans. It happened to me today on a Russian fan site... It was like this person knows the TRUTH and the rest of us silly people are blind and have no idea. I was really upset after our conversation. And I hated all those smilies in her post, like a thousand of them, so inappropriate... :( And she even asked me what proof I have that Michael is gone. Oh man :(

For me thу biggest proof is all those lost lives of fans who killed themselves after Michael died. Michael would never ever do something like that. He's not that kind of person.
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The bolded part is the main reason why I personally cannot believe that MJ is still alive, despite the facts not adding up here and there. I believe he was murdered because of the Sony/ATV catalog.
 
Re: The hoax site...

i believe in the freedom of speech. And personally if i feel something is offensive i just don't go there, don't read this boards or pages. The one who believe in the hoax don't harm the rest. so let them believe.
 
Re: The hoax site...

I wish it was true, and I would love to believe it.. but I can't.
 
Re: The hoax site...

You guys are pretty quick to say that these people are in denial. How do you know they are in denial? Have you examined their findings? Do you know for a fact that MJ is dead? How do you know that you are not the one in denial- If you judge something or someone before you know what it is, you are yourself in denial.

People always make the same mistake over and over again. People assume they know or understand something before even taking the time to examine it.

I did look at the evidence and I did it with an open mind. I didn't assume anything. I didn't think this could be true or this could be false. The only thing I knew was that I don't know if Michael Jackson is dead or alive. All I have seen is what the media feeds me. How can I know anything is real or not? Well, one must follow the rules of science to answer that one. And the people behind this id a very good job pointing out things that did not look right, contradictions made by people who spoke to the media. Signs and hints. Now if you isolate these things and view them one by one without an open mind, your first assumption would be that these people see these things because they can't stand the fact that MJ died.

But that is a baseless assumption. Because when you get to see the evidence that can fool no one, you start to think and the rest falls into place. You realize that the so called signs don't seem random and not related. What evidence am I talking about?

The fake footage of the ambulance pulling out of Michaels home to drive to the hospital. Two different videos exist of the same incident, the same ambulance backing out from MJ's house entry and driving off to the hospital. But if you examine both videos, you see they are not the same. One video is the proffesional tape released on Hollywood TV, the other one filmed from a mobilephone when the ambulance picked up Michael. The fake video is the Hollyqood TV video, because that was the first video released and the second was shot by a by stander watching it all happen. The differences in those two videos are unmistaken. You can not be fooled by it and no denial state or wishful thinking can make your mind fabricate that.

The photo of Michael in the ambulance while doctors work on him is photoshopped. You will have to look for that evidence yourself, as I won't give anything for free here. You need to examine everything yourself and leave your pre assumptions about it or them aside while doing it. But I saw the evidence and I was convinced that the photo was fake.

The death sertificate is also fake. How do I know? Latoya signed the death sertificate and I know that such a document must be signed by the doctor who ws with the patient for it to be legally valid. Latoyas signature makes the death sertificate invalid.

And finally the fpurth piece of evidence that really put the icing on the cake.

When Jennifer Hudson performed Will You Be There at the memorial, we heard Michaels final speech from the song at the end. We all assumed it was taken from the Dangerous CD but something happened. MJ misspoke one of the words. He said "In my anguish and pains"

In the CD version Michael does not say pains, he says pain. There is no s in pain. First thought was that they used a live recording. But the only two pro live recordings that we know of is MTV 10th anniversary and Dangerous Tour Bucharest concert. He says pain in both. Well you could say that they prehaps used a different recording, but to what end. Mj said the wrong word and that could be a clue. I agree that if you look at all these things as seperate, it could mean anything. But when you have four compelling pieces of evidence that clearly shows that what we have seen is fake and you know when and how these things were made public you stop to think. Then if you look at all the other things that have been spotted and noticed, all these seamingly random things suddenly becomes a great puzzle that match perfectly. And from what?? Four pieces of evidences that is not mistaken? I don't know if MJ is alive, but I know that these four things are real and from that standpoint, everything else has to be considered and not dismissed so easily.

I believe Michael faked his death, because all the evidence I have seen so far shows this.

I would be in denial if I didn't take into consideration what those four pieces of evidence tells me. They show clearly that what we were lead to believe we saw was fabricated.

And I won't call people who use this evidence and other things to find out the truth to be in denial. I can't because that means I am seeing things. And I checked. I showed the same things to many other people who are not fans and they saw the same things. So I know I am not seeing things :)

You find out for yourselves but don't be so quick to judge.

All is not what it appears to be and I think MJ might have pulled of the greatest stunt ever done by any human being ever. And why he might have done so is yet to be revealed. And if he would return nobody can say, allthough there are many clues to the fact that he will. But all this is speculation.

As I said, there are only four compelling evidences the rest are only clues.

You decide what to believe, but trust me you don't want to ignore this.
 
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Re: The hoax site...

TheBob... If Michael pulled off the greatest stunt done by any human being ever... faking his own death and having everyone totally fall for it, how do you explain the 'sightings'? If his plan went of without a hitch, nobody would ever see him again, he would be off on a remote island somewhere.

Face it, Michael's gone. You think Michael would be so selfish as to do something like this leaving his kids and family in this state? Thats another reason why he really has gone, his family would never agree to having a 'fake death' scenario.

He's gone :cry:
 
Re: The hoax site...

tomthedude said:
TheBob... If Michael pulled off the greatest stunt done by any human being ever... faking his own death and having everyone totally fall for it, how do you explain the 'sightings'? If his plan went of without a hitch, nobody would ever see him again, he would be off on a remote island somewhere.

Face it, Michael's gone. You think Michael would be so selfish as to do something like this leaving his kids and family in this state? Thats another reason why he really has gone, his family would never agree to having a 'fake death' scenario.

He's gone :cry:
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I have to agree with you..:cry:
 
Re: The hoax site...

tomthedude said:
TheBob... If Michael pulled off the greatest stunt done by any human being ever... faking his own death and having everyone totally fall for it, how do you explain the 'sightings'? If his plan went of without a hitch, nobody would ever see him again, he would be off on a remote island somewhere.

Face it, Michael's gone. You think Michael would be so selfish as to do something like this leaving his kids and family in this state? Thats another reason why he really has gone, his family would never agree to having a 'fake death' scenario.

He's gone :cry:
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Well first how do you know that Michael is dead? Face it? Face what? Your opinion?

Oh right I am in denial? Did you check out the things I mentioned before your answreed my post? No? Made a pre assumption about me I would guess ;)

Well MJ would not fake his death and have his kids believe he was dea, or his family for that sake. Explaantion? They are in on it :)

I am not saying MJ is dead or alive, I am saying that I have seen four pieces of evidence that shows four things that is not real. That is the only real evidence anyone has, and you can say what you want but those can not be excused or dismissed. Go see for yourself and tell me I am in denial, about what? I just know those four things are real. The rest I don't know. But I am not a fool. I don't believe anything anyone tells me, I examine everything before I make my own opinion about it.

And I did the proper research and work to double check that what I saw was what I think it was. It is. What does that tell me about everything else? That everything we have been shown and told may not be what it is. And if I said I believe Mj is dead, what is my source for that? The media!! How can I or anyone else say for 100% with proof that what we have seen is reality? With assumptions? MJ would not leave his kids, there was a memorial etc etc. That is taking things on face value. Is it likely that what we saw and heard was real? Off course, because we have no reason to think otherwise. But that is the trick. We have to assume we are not being lied to. And that is the real point in all of this. We are gullible and believe everything we hear and read and see on TV. The only reason we ever question something is if we were taught to question it. But we don't question everything.

And just when we thought we had learned not to be fooled, we get fooled again.

But what nobody was fooled by, was the fake ambulance footage, the fake photo, the death sertificate and the lyric blooper made by Michael.

Until I saw that I assumed what you did. Sad people in denial looking for things that are not there bla bla bla. Boy did I jump the gun on that one. Now I don't know. I do know one thing. Everything we have been told comes from three sources. Michaels family, Michaels friends and TMZ. TMZ has had a very huge role in all this, and if you check their site on their RIP celebrity listy of who has died. Mj is not mentioned there. And TMZ has had exclusives to many things we have seen, including the ambulance footage, the photo and the death certificate. They have also released info on the autposy and I tell you a lot of things don't ad up.

Here is another to chew on. The person who took the photo of MJ in the ambulance was friends with MJ. The two people in Germany who claim they made the "fake video of Mj jumping out of the coroner van in the garage are also friends with MJ.

Want more? Take a look at the This Is It movie a few more times and see for yourself. It is filled with clues. You just won't see them until you see the four unmistakable evidences that show we have seen four very crucial and very important things that is not real!

I am in denial? If that so then I must be dreaming and right now I think I am posting on MJJC ;)

See for yourself and have an open mind.

"You will see what I want you to see, when I want you to see it, how I want you to see it"

MJ said that in the Ebony magazine interview. Who knows what he meant :)

Is he alive or dead? Who can tell but MJ himself ;)

Now excuse me I am going to watch some more videos and be in denial some more :)
 
Re: The hoax site...

TheBob said:
Well first how do you know that Michael is dead? Face it? Face what? Your opinion?

No, face it that Michael is dead.

Oh right I am in denial? Did you check out the things I mentioned before your answreed my post? No? Made a pre assumption about me I would guess ;)

I got the general gist of what you were saying pretty early on.

Well MJ would not fake his death and have his kids believe he was dea, or his family for that sake. Explaantion? They are in on it :)

You really think Michael or someone close to him would try and explain the plan to his kids?

I am not saying MJ is dead or alive,

Yes you are. You are saying he's alive.

I am saying that I have seen four pieces of evidence that shows four things that is not real.

These are? EDIT: Saw them.

That is the only real evidence anyone has, and you can say what you want but those can not be excused or dismissed. Go see for yourself and tell me I am in denial, about what?

About Michael being dead.

I just know those four things are real. The rest I don't know. But I am not a fool. I don't believe anything anyone tells me, I examine everything before I make my own opinion about it.

You can get a totally different idea from something by examining it, that doesn't make it right. Maybe you can find slight inconsistencies in the way Tupac, Elvis or Biggie died, doesn't matter, they are still dead.

And I did the proper research and work to double check that what I saw was what I think it was. It is.

What research? What is what you thought it was?

What does that tell me about everything else? That everything we have been shown and told may not be what it is.

True, but most of the time it is, so we shouldn't assume that he is alive as soon as someone thinks so.

And if I said I believe Mj is dead, what is my source for that? The media!!

His official death certificate, the police, Dr. Murray etc... the media isn't always 100% wrong.

How can I or anyone else say for 100% with proof that what we have seen is reality?

How can you assume that with about 3 videos of men who appear to be Michael (but aren't), and '4 pieces of evidence' that you wont tell me, that he is alive?

With assumptions? MJ would not leave his kids, there was a memorial etc etc.

Yeah, because I'm sure Michael would spend his whole life showing his dedication to kids only to take it all back at the end.

That is taking things on face value. Is it likely that what we saw and heard was real? Off course, because we have no reason to think otherwise. But that is the trick.

No, it's real. Why doesn't anyone question with such desperation another celebrities death?

We have to assume we are not being lied to. And that is the real point in all of this. We are gullible and believe everything we hear and read and see on TV.

So now every TV station is lying... potentially about everything? So in reality, nobody could actually be dead? :doh:

The only reason we ever question something is if we were taught to question it. But we don't question everything.

And just when we thought we had learned not to be fooled, we get fooled again.

But what nobody was fooled by, was the fake ambulance footage, the fake photo, the death sertificate and the lyric blooper made by Michael.

These were all real. I'm unaware of the blooper lyric but again you don't say what it is. I was treated at a famous hospital as a child, but was I actually treated there? Yes, I have physical marks on my body as proof. Did Michael really die? Yes, we have paper, coroners words and reliable news sources as proof.

Until I saw that I assumed what you did. Sad people in denial looking for things that are not there bla bla bla. Boy did I jump the gun on that one. Now I don't know. I do know one thing. Everything we have been told comes from three sources. Michaels family, Michaels friends and TMZ. TMZ has had a very huge role in all this, and if you check their site on their RIP celebrity listy of who has died. Mj is not mentioned there.

Where is this list? I can't find it. You would think that if TMZ and everyone wanted to cover up Michaels 'death' they would INCLUDE it there.

And TMZ has had exclusives to many things we have seen, including the ambulance footage, the photo and the death certificate.

Just like 'OK!' magazine had exclusive pictures of Michael and Debbie holding their baby. Was their baby even born?

They have also released info on the autposy and I tell you a lot of things don't ad up.

And these things are?

Here is another to chew on. The person who took the photo of MJ in the ambulance was friends with MJ. The two people in Germany who claim they made the "fake video of Mj jumping out of the coroner van in the garage are also friends with MJ.

Maybe they were such good friends with Michael, they thought they saw Michael whenever someone with long black hair appeared? "Wow that guy looks like Michael! I bet if we film it we can get a lot of people believing it is him!"

Want more? Take a look at the This Is It movie a few more times and see for yourself. It is filled with clues. You just won't see them until you see the four unmistakable evidences that show we have seen four very crucial and very important things that is not real!

And these are?
I am in denial? If that so then I must be dreaming and right now I think I am posting on MJJC ;)

That doesn't make any sense.

See for yourself and have an open mind.

"You will see what I want you to see, when I want you to see it, how I want you to see it"

MJ said that in the Ebony magazine interview. Who knows what he meant :)

I know he didn't mean he was going to fake his own death.

Is he alive or dead? Who can tell but MJ himself ;)

He's dead.
Now excuse me I am going to watch some more videos and be in denial some more :)

Okay.
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:doh:
 
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Re: The hoax site...

Kane said:
I don't really want to post a link to it as...well, I don't think it's respfectful but I think the site's well known already.

I know they're not exactly breaking any rules but is there anything we can do about the Hoax death site? I've seen many comments about it with people saying how hurt and offended they are by it. Some of them are genuine greeving fans but I just still find it very sick and offensive - they're going all over YouTube aswell, posting how he isn't gone and is in hiding etc. They're even saying that Michael is Dave Dave. I just really don't like going on YouTube or some other website and seeing their videos and comments and I'm sure many of you feel the same way...
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The only control we have over the Internet, is what we choose to look at. If people are offended by something, they shouldn't watch it. If they are offended by the hoax death site, they shouldn't go there.

I am sure there are people who find some of the postings on MJJCommunity crazy too. Even though I also find some things offensive, I am thankful that the internet is a place where free speech and expression of opinion are allowed.
 
Re: The hoax site...

Asedora said:
Your comfort doesn’t help to get justice for MJ on this Earth. It is very destructive way of thinking. Fans cannot live in the dream till ppl who killed Michael not in prison. I understand you pain, but please be realistic.
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Some one believing Michael is alive does not hinder the investigation or prevent justice, unless it is one of the investigators!

Fans can do whatever they want, believe whatever they want and say whatever they want. They are individuals with free will, not a borg collective.
 
Re: The hoax site...

callmerose said:
The only control we have over the Internet, is what we choose to look at. If people are offended by something, they shouldn't watch it. If they are offended by the hoax death site, they shouldn't go there.
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I agree with you. But there is another thing: curiosity. I'm sure many fans watch the videos and visit these hoax sites out of curiosity. Why indeed, we all know but do not want to admit that all this is happening is strange. It is not normal what is happening in this investigation even more when it comes to a celebrity. If it were here in Brazil I would say it is normal that nothing works here and solve.

I watch videos hoax made by people I know who create theories based on what exists and proves the truth of fact. Not that crap they say that Dave Dave is Michael. Many intelligent people and observing with the very open mind making videos intriguing very interesting and makes us think that things do not seem to be as they are.

Each person sees and believes what he wants and it is convenient. It is up to each one. For me it is a fact that is happening is not normal to be dealing with a celebrity. Yes there is something going on behind it that is far from our eyes. Time will tell and will bring the answer.
 
Re: The hoax site...

i have a friend - i am thankful she believes in the hoax, otherwise she is capable to do something. So am i against? NO. not at all. If this helps her to deal - fine. No real harm!! Even the doctor will tell you - no problem just to live with the idea someone is ok and lives somewhere.

and well we should admit that everything is possible!
 
Re: The hoax site...

I can see why people have doubts about Michael being dead but i had some personal spiritual encounters since his death which lead me to believe that he has passed.

I do understand that people believe in a hoax and if this is their way of coping i dont see anything wrong with it.
If you find it hard to read their posts just try to ignore them.
 
Re: The hoax site...

Zori said:
i have a friend - i am thankful she believes in the hoax, otherwise she is capable to do something. So am i against? NO. not at all. If this helps her to deal - fine. No real harm!! Even the doctor will tell you - no problem just to live with the idea someone is ok and lives somewhere.

and well we should admit that everything is possible!
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Zori, I advise you to read your signature and my signature. Apply the same logic to this.

It's always what Michael said... the lie will become the truth.
 
Re: The hoax site...

I think there´s curiousity plus there are things these guys investigate that can be useful for those of us, who investigate the circumstances of Michael´s death. What they believe are signs of Michael being alive can be regarded by us (for example) as the signs of the murderers wanting to cover up their crime.

And not the ´clues´ or signs are, IMO, worth studying, but the real things, like the two videos of the ambulance. That´s why I studied it and someone, in some other board proved the two films are showing the same ambulance, only that there were two persons filming by the ambulance, which is obvious after watching them in a better quality.

I also think that is the human mind that produces such powerful denial. I mean - when the pain is unbearable, your mind produces something that defends you from autodestruction, that isolates you from the sufferring, that keeps you alive.
 
Re: The hoax site...

You know I have to say something. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the human mind and human psychology.

This denial talk has no basis in fact, and is only an assertion based on what you heard before about other conspiracy theories. Yes there are some who see things when they are not there, but most of these people are religious nutjobs or sosiopats.

I find it very offensive to be compared to people like that. Nobody here knows me or know how I think. For the record and I stated this in my last posts so please don't make me repeat myself. I do not know if Michael Jackson is alive or dead. Now to understand what this means you have to understand what the word knowledge means. And for the record none of you KNOW Michael Jackson died on June 25th. You were told by your TV screen and newspaper that this happened. Now I am not saying to argue he is alive so please don't distort the context of my words. You do not know what happened on June 25th 2009 other then what you yourself did that day. That is the only thing you KNOW.

Knowledge comes with evidence, and without evidence all you have is belief and assumptions. How we deal with beliefs and assumptions based on reality is what we call asserting probability. For the most part we believe what we see on the news and don't stop to think about it. We as humans have a tendency to believe in anything, wich is why religion has been so succesful over the course of history.

This however has been exploited to the fullest by those with power and by those with an agenda to make profit. I am mentioning all these things just make it absolutely clear that what you think you know, and what you actually know is not for you to decide but for the observer to decide. This may sound strange as we have freedoms in this world. But we have laws and we have rules and these rules exist for a purpose.

To know something you bave to be able to prove it. Unless you can do that, the observer will and should dismiss your claim. This shows just how things work in this world and why we have a justice system that works, not always though.

I myself am very awear of this fact and I treat belief and knowledge with great responsibility. I am very careful of what I claim to know and what I actually know. And I don't pretend to know anything, I prove myself and if someone can disprove me I submit and change my opinion. This goes for all things noa matter what. So regardless of what I saw on the news, read in the papers and what I have seen from the Jackson family and friends of Michael, I still do not know if Michael died that day. I have not seen him die, I have not seen his dead body and I have not even been close to that incident.

All I have is face value to base myself on. That leaves me with a sense of humbleness and understanding that I am in no position to tell others what happened that day.

Now I also want to make it perfectly clear that I have not spent time searching for hoax videos and conspiracy theories since Michael died. I have spent my time with other things.

But two weeks ago I decided I wanted to see what the fuzz wwas about. And I did it with an open mind knowing that I myself do not know the truth. To deal with any situation and issue, you have to be honest with yourself and know that you can not decide what is true, only the evidence can do that.

And I have not seen any evidence that Michael is alive, but I have seen four things. And I know a great deal aboyt those four things, so any theory that they were fabricated to cover up Michaels murder does not hold up to scrutiny.

Just a side note, I am somewhat annoyed that people who don't even know what I am talking about is adressing me on this issue. See it for yourself and don't come to me with anything until you have. ok?

These four things are official documents/footage that is not part of some cover up of any murder. These videos were released by the media and the people behind it has been uncovered and interviewed. Again I am not going to into details because part of this is for you to see for yourself. Don't question what I saw until you see it for yourself.

The footage of the ambulance we saw drive from Michaels home is fake. This is not a theory or an assumption or an opinion, it is the god damn truth. See for yourself the evidence is overwhelming. Second I know that the first video was released by TMZ. The second video was shot by someone standing outside and watching it all happen and was uploaded on youtube. These videos do not match and are clearly two seperate videos. What logical conclusion can we dra from this. One of them is fake. Wich one. The most likely answer is the one released on TMZ, only an hour after MJ died no less. Why? Because that one is filmed with a handheld camera. The second one is filmed with acell phone. Easy logic. So what does all this tell me? Nothing.

But I have three more crucial pieces of evidence that also by themself does not tell me anything. But when I have all of them together, it makes you think. Are they ALL part of a cosnpiracy to cover up Michael was murdered. Ok? Then explain the death sertificate, and explain the photo. The death sertificate was signed by Latoya Jackson, and by law this makes the document ivalid. You are only officially dead when the death sertificate is signed, and the law clearly states this. That is why the doctor who was with the patient HAS to sign the document. Latoya did, and now by law Michael is not officially dead.

So how does that fit with a murder? Did Latoya kill him? Hell no!!

And the photo? Well it does not say that MJ is alive now does it? It only says one thing. It was photoshopped. The evidence again very convincing. Why was it photoshopped? Nobody knows, but we can speculate. And when you do that you have to look at what you have. And guess what, I have three other things wich I know is not true. So what does that tell you? These things were very crucial parts of the events that unfolded after Michael died, so they can not be random. Looking at it seperate they don't seem to be connected, because they all represent different mediums and different meanings. Video/photo/death seritificate and one major slip up by Michael when he speaks the lines from Will You Be There. They don't see related at all, but at the same time they tell you something really important. Something very fishy is going on, and this has nothing to do with Dr. Murray or the people some think were behind killing Michael. First of all how in the hell do anyone know that anyone was behind killing Michael? He sais she said? Forget it.

Now what conclusion have I drawn from all this. None. But I have gone deeper into this and there are many more things that separate doesn't make any sens and is hard to catch or even put together in a puzzle. But with the four compelling evidences, they don't seem random or blurry.

This is how science works, this is how investigators work when they try to uncover the truth.


I shall quote Sherlock Holmes who is a legendary fictional character who was an investigator, and these are very important quotes.

# Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth. -- The Sign of the Four

# How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth? -- The Sign of the Four

# We must fall back upon the old axiom that when all other contingencies fail, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -- "The Bruce-Partington Plans"

# When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -- "The Blanched Soldier"

Theories are not build on assumptions and conjecture and guesses. They are build on evidence and logic.

Is Michael dead or alive. I leave you investigate and find out for yourself.

But do not pretend to know if you have not done the research.

And to all of you who truly are blindly following a death hoax theory because you can't bear the fact Michael is dead. Drop it now and get help.

This is not something you should be doing if you have personal problems because of his death.
 
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Re: The hoax site...

but you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the human mind and human psychology.
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Can I ask what that has to do with Michael's death?
 
Re: The hoax site...

Kane said:
Can I ask what that has to do with Michael's death?
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Well I never said it had anything to do with Michaels death, so that is a strange question.

Some people here claim to know how the human mind works and for no good reason use that as an ad hominem to adress some people who do not think that his death is real.

Unless you majored in psychology or graduated from the police academy and became an investigator, or simply spend time studying these things, you are most likely not qualified to assert if someone is basing themself on evidence, or being just plain nuts, or just sad heartbroken people who don't want to see the truth. And you need to adress their arguments and/or evidence/clues to really know if they are on to something or not.

Please research the word ad hominem if you don't know what it is :)
 
Re: The hoax site...

TheBob said:
You know I have to say something. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the human mind and human psychology.

This denial talk has no basis in fact, and is only an assertion based on what you heard before about other conspiracy theories. Yes there are some who see things when they are not there, but most of these people are religious nutjobs or sosiopats.

I find it very offensive to be compared to people like that. Nobody here knows me or know how I think. For the record and I stated this in my last posts so please don't make me repeat myself. I do not know if Michael Jackson is alive or dead. Now to understand what this means you have to understand what the word knowledge means. And for the record none of you KNOW Michael Jackson died on June 25th. You were told by your TV screen and newspaper that this happened. Now I am not saying to argue he is alive so please don't distort the context of my words. You do not know what happened on June 25th 2009 other then what you yourself did that day. That is the only thing you KNOW.

Knowledge comes with evidence, and without evidence all you have is belief and assumptions. How we deal with beliefs and assumptions based on reality is what we call asserting probability. For the most part we believe what we see on the news and don't stop to think about it. We as humans have a tendency to believe in anything, wich is why religion has been so succesful over the course of history.

This however has been exploited to the fullest by those with power and by those with an agenda to make profit. I am mentioning all these things just make it absolutely clear that what you think you know, and what you actually know is not for you to decide but for the observer to decide. This may sound strange as we have freedoms in this world. But we have laws and we have rules and these rules exist for a purpose.

To know something you bave to be able to prove it. Unless you can do that, the observer will and should dismiss your claim. This shows just how things work in this world and why we have a justice system that works, not always though.

I myself am very awear of this fact and I treat belief and knowledge with great responsibility. I am very careful of what I claim to know and what I actually know. And I don't pretend to know anything, I prove myself and if someone can disprove me I submit and change my opinion. This goes for all things noa matter what. So regardless of what I saw on the news, read in the papers and what I have seen from the Jackson family and friends of Michael, I still do not know if Michael died that day. I have not seen him die, I have not seen his dead body and I have not even been close to that incident.

All I have is face value to base myself on. That leaves me with a sense of humbleness and understanding that I am in no position to tell others what happened that day.

Now I also want to make it perfectly clear that I have not spent time searching for hoax videos and conspiracy theories since Michael died. I have spent my time with other things.

But two weeks ago I decided I wanted to see what the fuzz wwas about. And I did it with an open mind knowing that I myself do not know the truth. To deal with any situation and issue, you have to be honest with yourself and know that you can not decide what is true, only the evidence can do that.

And I have not seen any evidence that Michael is alive, but I have seen four things. And I know a great deal aboyt those four things, so any theory that they were fabricated to cover up Michaels murder does not hold up to scrutiny.

Just a side note, I am somewhat annoyed that people who don't even know what I am talking about is adressing me on this issue. See it for yourself and don't come to me with anything until you have. ok?

These four things are official documents/footage that is not part of some cover up of any murder. These videos were released by the media and the people behind it has been uncovered and interviewed. Again I am not going to into details because part of this is for you to see for yourself. Don't question what I saw until you see it for yourself.

The footage of the ambulance we saw drive from Michaels home is fake. This is not a theory or an assumption or an opinion, it is the god damn truth. See for yourself the evidence is overwhelming. Second I know that the first video was released by TMZ. The second video was shot by someone standing outside and watching it all happen and was uploaded on youtube. These videos do not match and are clearly two seperate videos. What logical conclusion can we dra from this. One of them is fake. Wich one. The most likely answer is the one released on TMZ, only an hour after MJ died no less. Why? Because that one is filmed with a handheld camera. The second one is filmed with acell phone. Easy logic. So what does all this tell me? Nothing.

But I have three more crucial pieces of evidence that also by themself does not tell me anything. But when I have all of them together, it makes you think. Are they ALL part of a cosnpiracy to cover up Michael was murdered. Ok? Then explain the death sertificate, and explain the photo. The death sertificate was signed by Latoya Jackson, and by law this makes the document ivalid. You are only officially dead when the death sertificate is signed, and the law clearly states this. That is why the doctor who was with the patient HAS to sign the document. Latoya did, and now by law Michael is not officially dead.

So how does that fit with a murder? Did Latoya kill him? Hell no!!

And the photo? Well it does not say that MJ is alive now does it? It only says one thing. It was photoshopped. The evidence again very convincing. Why was it photoshopped? Nobody knows, but we can speculate. And when you do that you have to look at what you have. And guess what, I have three other things wich I know is not true. So what does that tell you? These things were very crucial parts of the events that unfolded after Michael died, so they can not be random. Looking at it seperate they don't seem to be connected, because they all represent different mediums and different meanings. Video/photo/death seritificate and one major slip up by Michael when he speaks the lines from Will You Be There. They don't see related at all, but at the same time they tell you something really important. Something very fishy is going on, and this has nothing to do with Dr. Murray or the people some think were behind killing Michael. First of all how in the hell do anyone know that anyone was behind killing Michael? He sais she said? Forget it.

Now what conclusion have I drawn from all this. None. But I have gone deeper into this and there are many more things that separate doesn't make any sens and is hard to catch or even put together in a puzzle. But with the four compelling evidences, they don't seem random or blurry.

This is how science works, this is how investigators work when they try to uncover the truth.


I shall quote Sherlock Holmes who is a legendary fictional character who was an investigator, and these are very important quotes.

# Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth. -- The Sign of the Four

# How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth? -- The Sign of the Four

# We must fall back upon the old axiom that when all other contingencies fail, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -- "The Bruce-Partington Plans"

# When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -- "The Blanched Soldier"

Theories are not build on assumptions and conjecture and guesses. They are build on evidence and logic.

Is Michael dead or alive. I leave you investigate and find out for yourself.

But do not pretend to know if you have not done the research.

And to all of you who truly are blindly following a death hoax theory because you can't bear the fact Michael is dead. Drop it now and get help.

This is not something you should be doing if you have personal problems because of his death.
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Re: The hoax site...

mysterygirl7 said:
Why are the change of the lyrics in Will you be there a proof to you, TheBob?
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I did not say it was proof. Please listen to my words and what they mean.

I said that none of these things prove anything if you look at them separate. But the ambulance and the photo and the death sertificate is fake. That does not tell me what is going on, it just tells me they are fake. The memorial evidence does not explain anything, or explain these other items. It is just there and it can not be explained away. So I must keep it as evidence. And when I say evidence I am not talking about a conclusion. Please understand the difference. Evidence is a word wich describes something, not a conclusion.

That is what theories are for. I know why some here have a hard time understanding what I am saying, so I will forgive and hope you catch up and learn ;)

The slipup with the lyrica can not be explained. There is only one explanation for it. It was meant to be there. Why I don't know.

But I do know the other three evidences are real as well and they are much more important.

Again evidence does not mean an explanation or a conclusion. That is what theories are for.

I am pointint out these things for you to see for yourself.

I am not interested in debating anyone who has not done so yet.

Go see for yourself and then come back and debate.
 
Re: The hoax site...

I would like to talk about this more on here but I am not sure if we are allowed to...? I don't want to be banned, maybe we should ask Gaz.

What I will say for the moment is that I have only very recently taken a look at some of this hoax stuff out of interest. Some of it in my opinion is just silly - for example the Dave Dave theory. However, I have seen a lot of very well researched investigations, analysing practically every second of video clips. So what this tells me is that not everyone who believes this is someone blindly following the hoax because they are in denial. There is some very detailed investigation. There are some of their findings that I've gone back and checked for myself, and yes they're right, but these little things (for example the video footage of ambulance not matching and certain issues with the funeral footage), still do not prove Michael is alive, there could be some perfectly reasonable explanation.


Regardless of this though.. the emotion of the family particularly Paris at the memorial is what is telling me that what we've been told is true.
 
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