Jordan Chandler Discussion Thread

As you can plainly see, by this Video, Gavin truly was sick with Cancer, Michael really did follow in Jesus' footsteps, in letting the little children come to him!

Robbsaber01 said:

A confession from Jordan would create more of an impact than the arvizos because in '93 there was no trial.

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I agree, but if the Arvizo's were ever taped admitting what really happened, it would also be a big deal and it would stir up how it was ever allowed to happen, and make people rethink Jordan.

Jackson also addressed Michael's 2005 child sex abuse trial.

"Well, you know that there was a reason why that happened," Jackson said. "They were trying to take control over Michael's life. Michael has paid out a lot of money, you know, what is it? Something like $22 million, you know, to keep this thing hushed down."

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What the hell Papa Joe....what the hell? Hush money, really? :mat: Someone shoot me! HUH! Is he not aware MJ insurance got involved, is he not aware even after the settlement there was still an on goin criminal investigation that the out of court settlement did NOT stop! I know the general public is ignorant of these facts but, sh*t MJs own fam too? Gotta be kiddin me!

Isn't he aware MJ's insurance company paid out fraud? That's not hush money, dafuq! :doh: :angry: He's not sane and sensible enough to give interviews.

It's not fair, yes Tom Mesereau vindicated Michael in court and the jury fortunately found out those charges were a damn lie but justice for him was incomplete. The prosecution falsified evidence, the Arvizos commited fraud and what happened to all of them? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, the Arvizos have a normal life, they have friends, they'll recieve college educaction thanks to Zonen, they don't deserve all the good things they've got, Gavin is the one that should be dead instead of Michael.

I'm sorry. but personally, what Joe said made me sick to my stomach. I know he's elderly. But if he can't defend Michael any better than to say something like that, it's not worth talking about Michael at all, in my opinion. Joe's comments about the allegations are going to be everywhere in the media tomorrow. And I am not looking forward to that.

I too am mad bout what joe said bout the alleagtions...I MEAN WTF!!!!! :rant:

Guys I am reading the transcripts from the 05 trial, & that kid sounds like a professional on the stand in the way he sounds vague, forgets everything, and changes his testimony so many times, that my head is spinning (reminds me of White).

Anyway about June: She claims that Michael was supposed to go to this Cirque show with the kid, the person from the show called & said Michael did not show up, then Michael came into the house crying that June did not trust him & he thought they were family, Michael begged June to let Jordan sleep over, June said she had problems with men letting her down & then agreed to let Jordan sleep over. Now the way this evidence was given obviously was done to show Michael as some neurotic, foolish, degenerate who was aching for this kid to spend the night. Has TMez or anyone commented on that piece of evidence.

I notice also she stresses that Michael separates kid from family, kid ignores dad now, other mom tells June that Michael will drop her son as he did hers & that she wanted her son to record in Michael's studio (or something like that), so it seems they are trying to say that this is a deliberate ploy Michael has to make a child focus all the attention on him. I also notice that both women wanted Michael to give their family everything & they used their sons because they knew Michael liked children. So it seems to me that this was a character trait that people noticed about Michael, i.e., his love of children, and used it as a way to get favors from him. They could present their child for him to help & then use that as leverage to get Michael to help the whole family. I notice also that there is always a family attached to the children, & with the exception of the wealthier families, the families expected mega gifts like careers.

It's interesting because Jordan's own version of events according to the psychiatrist interview is different from June's.

Jordan claimed he slept in MJ's room and then June found out and got upset the next day.

In June's version Jordan wants to sleep in MJ's room and MJ cries so she lets it happen.

So what really happened?

^^What really happened? I am sure we can find another variation of this, if we look at the other interviews too.

Petrarose said:

I notice also she stresses that Michael separates kid from family, kid ignores dad now, other mom tells June that Michael will drop her son as he did hers & that she wanted her son to record in Michael's studio (or something like that), so it seems they are trying to say that this is a deliberate ploy Michael has to make a child focus all the attention on him. I also notice that both women wanted Michael to give their family everything & they used their sons because they knew Michael liked children. So it seems to me that this was a character trait that people noticed about Michael, i.e., his love of children, and used it as a way to get favors from him. They could present their child for him to help & then use that as leverage to get Michael to help the whole family. I notice also that there is always a family attached to the children, & with the exception of the wealthier families, the families expected mega gifts like careers.

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Funny that they try to make it appear like that. I guess this was the script Evan gave to June.

However, Michael also spent time in Evan's house and with Evan's side of the family, so how does that correlate with the claim Michael tried to seperate kids from their fathers? Michael only started to pull back from Evan after Evan started to behave totally weird and asking him and Jordan bizarre questions and started to suggest he wanted Michael to support his screenwriter career and to build an addition to his house or build a new house for him.

This suggestion how Michael allegedly preyed on broken families without a father or tried to isolate kids from their fathers is quite simply not true. Ask Dominic Cascio, Kit Culkin or many other dads who were allowed to be around Michael just as much as the kids and the mothers. Jordan actually had two fathers (a biological and a step-father). But he cut off Evan after Evan started to act totally crazy - which is completely understandable.

other mom tells June that Michael will drop her son as he did hers & that she wanted her son to record in Michael's studio (or something like that)

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I guess this was Wade Robson's mother, Joy because at the time it was Wade whose career was supported by Michael. But I doubt Joy told June something like that about Michael dropping her son, since Michael remained friends with Wade into adulthood as well. He testified for the defense in 2005, as well as Joy.

However, I always wondered if this was the thing how Evan got Jordan support his plot: that they told him that Michael would soon "drop him" anyway, so at least they should get money out of this (the whole family seems pretty material to me, including Jordan). Actually, when Dr. Gardner asked Jordan how this alleged molestation could have hurt him, his answer is pretty odd:

"When you say it could have hurt you, how could it have hurt you?"

"Everybody thinks what he was doing could hurt, otherwise it wouldn't be a crime."

"Okay, how could it hurt? As you see it, how could it hurt you?"

"Because - that's a touchy subject, I guess. It separates you from any other people."

"How?"

"I don't know."

"Just your own guess."

"It could make me depressed or something, I don't know."

"Well, this is important. You say it's a crime. Why is it a crime?"

"Because, like I said before, he's using his experience, power, age - - "

"How could this have left you? If this had gone on and not been interrupted, how could you have ended up?"

"According to his pattern, I believe he would have left me and, sort of dumped me, I guess you could call it. And I would be, sort of, a vegetable."

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What "pattern"? There wasn't any other accuser. So who told Jordan this?

And the whole "experience, power, age" etc was what Evan Chandler was quoted as saying in the taped transcript. How did Jordan manage to repeat Evan's exact problem with MJ when there was no known sexual abuse?

So Jordan's big problem would be that MJ would dump him. Not that he'd been abused and how awful that is for a child, but that he would be ditched. Imagine the complaint from a Sandusky family member saying the worst thing he could do was dump him?

Wade Robson was close to MJ till the day he died, his mother said they visited NL pretty much once a year, Wade would invite his friends AND girlfriends over to NL. Imagine bringing your girlfriend over to the site you'd been abused.

respect77 said:

However, I always wondered if this was the thing how Evan got Jordan support his plot: that they told him that Michael would soon "drop him" anyway, so at least they should get money out of this (the whole family seems pretty material to me, including Jordan). Actually, when Dr. Gardner asked Jordan how this alleged molestation could have hurt him, his answer is pretty odd:



What "pattern"? There wasn't any other accuser. So who told Jordan this?

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I believe so too, because even the way he talks about Michael using his power, age... what kid talks like that. It sounds to me like something Sned or one of them would say. Obviously he was coached.

Oh yes, he was absolutely coached! These are quotes from the phone conversation between Evan and Dave Schwartz in July, 1993:

“MR. CHANDLER: But it could have been used to advantage, and in some ways Michael is using his age and experience and his money and his power to great advantage to Jordy.“

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“MR. CHANDLER: It was the saddest thing I [tape irregularity]. I mean, how do you do that? 13 years old. There's no -- you know, and a [tape irregularity] just come into it? I ask you this: If Michael Jackson were just some 34-year-old person, would this be happening? No. He's got power, he's got money, he's got seduction. [tape irregularity] happening [tape irregularity] they've been seduced away from the family by power and by money.”

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“MR. CHANDLER: He could be the same person without the power and the money, and they wouldn't even be talking to him. You know it and I know it. So for power and money and his image, June and Jordy have broken up the family, and even though [tape irregularity] a lot better, because I've sat down and talked to him, and I've told him long before it came down to going this far –“

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Now, let's look at what Jordan told to Dr. Gardner in October!

"You still wanted to go on the tour?"

"Yes, at the time."

"Why is that?"

"Because I was having fun. At the time, the things Michael was doing to me, they didn't affect me. Like, I didn't think anything was totally wrong with what he was doing since he was my friend, and he kept on telling me that he would never hurt me. But presently I see that he was obviously lying."

"You're saying you didn't realize it could hurt you? Is that what you're - - "

"I didn't see anything wrong with it."

"Do you see the wrong in it now?"

"Of course."

"What is wrong as you see it?"

"Because he's a grown-up and he's using his experience, of his age in manipulating and coercing younger people who don't have as much experience as him, and don't have the ability to say no to someone powerful like that. He's using his power, his experience, his age – his overwhelmingness - to get what he wants."

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And again what I have quoted above:

"When you say it could have hurt you, how could it have hurt you?"

"Everybody thinks what he was doing could hurt, otherwise it wouldn't be a crime."

"Okay, how could it hurt? As you see it, how could it hurt you?"

"Because - that's a touchy subject, I guess. It separates you from any other people."

"How?"

"I don't know."

"Just your own guess."

"It could make me depressed or something, I don't know."

"Well, this is important. You say it's a crime. Why is it a crime?"

"Because, like I said before, he's using his experience, power, age - - "

"How could this have left you? If this had gone on and not been interrupted, how could you have ended up?"

"According to his pattern, I believe he would have left me and, sort of dumped me, I guess you could call it. And I would be, sort of, a vegetable."

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Keep in mind that according to Ray's book once Jordan “confessed” to his father on July 16 by answering with an almost inaudible “yes” to the question if MJ touched his penis, they supposedly never talked about the allegations again! So how does Jordan end up using the same words, same phrases, same logic with Dr. Gardner as his father did with Schwartz? Of course, he was coached.

Also the answers that jordy has given to that dr gardner sounds way older than 12 yrs old..there isnt a 12 yr old i know that talks like that

^ He was 13, but yes even Bill O'Reilly said he thought Jordan did not sound like a child.

IMO and this has been my opinion for years, the answers to this whole scam is in Michael's relationship not with Jordan but with June. That is my opinion

Even an MJ hater thought his testimony was odd, hmm, interesting. :thinking:

No one needs to be a genius to fugure out Jordan's testimony was coached. Probably I didn't catch it but I didn't know what the media thought about Evan's suicide...

la_cienega said:

^ He was 13, but yes even Bill O'Reilly said he thought Jordan did not sound like a child.

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oh ok i thought he was 12 hen he spoke with this dr gardner but still those answers he gave the doctor is way beyond his years especially given that he was just a young teenager at the time.

I am learning that we have to be careful with the Dr. Gardner interview, because it seems that we do not have the official document from the doctor. The interview is discussed in All That Glitters, and it appears that a lot of the documents in that book is made up. One of the problems people have is that if the DA sent Jordan to the doctor, why would Ray have the interview? It would more likely be given to the DA, so if we cannot verify that a document comes from the DA, I am sort of reluctant to believe the disclosures in the document, if its only source is Chandler's book. It seems that Hughes even states in her book that some of the documents Ray shows have her initials but she did not type up the documents he shows & in some the attorney's signature is different.

Also, notice that Evans runs all over the TV claiming Michael molested Jordan, but when he had the opportunity to go to court and have Michael put in jail he hid. Why? Then I find out that Jordan was being interviewed by a social worker and then the police came in & stopped it, again Why? Did they know that Jordan was lying.

Then I am finding out that Chandler was asked to bring all his documents to the defense for the 05 trial, you know the documents he claimed he had & used for the book, & showed Michael molested Jordan, & he fought it claiming either that the documents could be found from other sources, they were not relevant to the case, then he hid behind the shield law & used Michael's defense protection which prevented the People from knowing he was subpenaed. Why would Chandler fight legally so he would NOT have to bring these documents, if they were legitimate and could stand being scrutinized by the defense?

Then we have Hughes suggesting that Jordan & family planned this in advance and Jordan practiced it, which brings me to the question of whether the dad simply made up the story that under that drug, Jordan admitted he was molested. Could it be that this was a part of the plot & that Jordan never admitted anything while under that drug. However, it seems that some feel that he was given the drug, but that the idea was planted in his mind before. I am on the fence about the drug, because it seems to me like a badly written script & we know that Jordan and dad wanted to be in the movies.

Watch the video its about 1993.

Robbsaber I looked at the first 11 mins, & got sick of the way they are so proud of this trash.

Petrarose said:

I am learning that we have to be careful with the Dr. Gardner interview, because it seems that we do not have the official document from the doctor. The interview is discussed in All That Glitters, and it appears that a lot of the documents in that book is made up. One of the problems people have is that if the DA sent Jordan to the doctor, why would Ray have the interview? It would more likely be given to the DA, so if we cannot verify that a document comes from the DA, I am sort of reluctant to believe the disclosures in the document, if its only source is Chandler's book. It seems that Hughes even states in her book that some of the documents Ray shows have her initials but she did not type up the documents he shows & in some the attorney's signature is different.

Also, notice that Evans runs all over the TV claiming Michael molested Jordan, but when he had the opportunity to go to court and have Michael put in jail he hid. Why? Then I find out that Jordan was being interviewed by a social worker and then the police came in & stopped it, again Why? Did they know that Jordan was lying.

Then I am finding out that Chandler was asked to bring all his documents to the defense for the 05 trial, you know the documents he claimed he had & used for the book, & showed Michael molested Jordan, & he fought it claiming either that the documents could be found from other sources, they were not relevant to the case, then he hid behind the shield law & used Michael's defense protection which prevented the People from knowing he was subpenaed. Why would Chandler fight legally so he would NOT have to bring these documents, if they were legitimate and could stand being scrutinized by the defense?

Then we have Hughes suggesting that Jordan & family planned this in advance and Jordan practiced it, which brings me to the question of whether the dad simply made up the story that under that drug, Jordan admitted he was molested. Could it be that this was a part of the plot & that Jordan never admitted anything while under that drug. However, it seems that some feel that he was given the drug, but that the idea was planted in his mind before. I am on the fence about the drug, because it seems to me like a badly written script & we know that Jordan and dad wanted to be in the movies.

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I believe the Gardener interview we have is real and not much was redacted. How did Ray get it? from Evan. How did Evan get it? He was the dad, he and June were interviewed by Gardener, so as the parents, they would have access IMO. Feldman gave the interview to another therapist, one who was in the McMartin case (forgot his name at the moment) to look over in 93-94. He testified at the 05 trial. Why was he given the interview? B/c the conclusions reached by Gardener, specifically whether these were true or false accusations (which Gardener had published a book on telling the difference between in Oct. 93) are MISSING. Why are they missing? B/c IMO Gardener concluded that the accusations were largely false. Not 100% false b/c Gardener states in the interview that he thinks that an adult male unrelated to a young boy should not be sharing a bed with that boy when other beds are available, and he considered that a sexual act (it's in the interview). Also I doubt the DA ordered the interview, I think Feldman did.

IMO the interview is real. IMO they didn't have the skills to write the whole thing and make it as believable as it is. Gardener asks good questions, the kind a dr. aware of these cases would ask. I have read good chunks of Gardener's Oct. 93 book and have made excerpts that I can share later. If you look at the interview carefully, it actually proves that Jordan was lying.

I agree with Jamba. I'm aware that there is scepticism about the Gardner interview's authenticity among fans because it came from the Chandlers, but I also believe it's real. And yes, according to Ray's book it was Larry Feldman who sent Jordan to Dr. Gardner, not the DA. Also Ray played audio snippets from it in Bashir's second documentary. Of course, we cannot rule out that they might have edited some parts of the transcript, but overall I think it's real - and, like Jamba, I think it shows that Jordan was coached and that he was lying.

Ray claims in his book that Gardner concluded Jordan was molested - and this is the part I don't believe. (Let's not forget when Ray published his book Dr. Gardner was already dead, so Ray could claim anything he wanted, Gardner was not here to refute him.) Why didn't they also publish Gardner's conclusion then? Why did they feel the need to send the interview to another psychologist, Dr. Stanley Katz, for evaluation who had a controversial role in the McMartin trial?

I didn't know Gardner mentioned this in a book. Which book it is, Jamba?

(BTW, the Chandlers also claimed that Dr. Abrams concluded that Jordan was molested and that wasn't true either. In a December 12, 2003 interview on CBS News Dr. Abrams said:

“I think that this [children changing their stories] is a possibility in both cases, that there could be coaching, but, again, I wasn’t given the opportunity in the initial one to even try to find out.” )

Petrarose;3776359 said:

Then we have Hughes suggesting that Jordan & family planned this in advance and Jordan practiced it, which brings me to the question of whether the dad simply made up the story that under that drug, Jordan admitted he was molested. Could it be that this was a part of the plot & that Jordan never admitted anything while under that drug. However, it seems that some feel that he was given the drug, but that the idea was planted in his mind before. I am on the fence about the drug, because it seems to me like a badly written script & we know that Jordan and dad wanted to be in the movies.

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I don't believe in the Sodium Amytal story. I think that's something that the Chandlers spread through tabloid media in the spring of 1994 - to get the prosecution off their back when they pressured them to testify in a criminal trial. There was another much publicized case going on in the spring of 1994 where a woman accused her father of sexually abusing her when she was a child. In that case it came out that the woman's therapist put her under the hypnotic drug Sodium Amytal and that's when she came up with the allegations. In that case Sodium Amytal was ruled unreliable. And it was after this we first heard this claim that Jordan was put under Sodium Amytal. In the hindsight Ray Chandler tried to claim this idea came from Michael's camp, but every trace points to the Chandler camp.

It was first reported by Harvey Levin on May 3, 1994. Levin at the time worked for KCBS-TV. The way it's worded in Mary Fischer's article suggest Levin's source was Evan:

"A newsman at KCBS-TV, in L.A., reported on May 3 of this year [1994] that Chandler had used the drug on his son, but the dentist claimed he did so only to pull his son's tooth and that while under the drug's influence, the boy came out with allegations."

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Also Mary Fischer herself asked the Mark Torbiner, Evan’s Anesthesiologist, the person who supposedly sedated Jordan, and he answered somewhat ambiguously: "If I used it, it was for dental purposes". Why didn't he flat out deny it if it wasn't them who put out this story in the media in the first place? IMO in 1994 they had a purpose with this story and that was to get the prosecution off their back.

In ATG, it is claimed that Jordan was sedated to pull his tooth, but no word about Sodium Amytal. Also the story of how Jordan "came out with the allegations" is described in a way that doesn't seem to have much to do with the drug and the sedation. Much more with Evan threatening him into it:

Jordie and Evan met Mark at Evan's office at 8:30 AM. As it turned out, the x-rays showed that Jordie had no cavities, just the overretained baby tooth that was causing the permanent one underneath to come in crooked.
Evan cleaned his son's teeth while Mark set up his equipment, and when the boy was sedated Evan performed the thirty-second procedure. When Jordie was safely out of sedation, Mark packed up and left.
"That was great," Jordie said, fully awake. "I didn't feel a thing? Can we go eat now?"
"In a minute," Evan answered.
Jordie sat quietly in the chair while his father cleaned up around the operatory.
"Hey, Jordie," Evan said, trying to sound nonchalant. "Since this is our last day together, is there anything you want to tell me before we go?"
"Yeah," Jordie replied. (Evan prayed for a miracle.) "I'm thirsty."
"Uh, okay. You can get up and walk now. Go to the kitchen, there's some bottled water in the fridge."
Evan had waited all week for the right moment to talk to his son, but he was concerned that forcing him to speak before he was ready would drive him further away. The end result was that the right moment never came. Or that Evan had passed it up.
"I was standing there drinking, Oh, well, I guess that's it, he's not going to talk. But while he was out in the kitchen it hit me that I'd been taking the wrong approach. Here I was tiptoeing around him because Dr. Abrams has scared the hell out of me. But Jordie was about to go away with Michael for five months, so how much worse could it get! If he wasn't totally screwed up yet, going on tour was sure to finish the job. That realization changed my whole way of thinking. I could be as tough on him as I wanted. I had nothing to lose."
When Jordie came strolling back from the kitchen, Evan went on the attack. "Have a seat, and listen very carefully to what I'm about to say. Do you remember when you came over to the house I told you that if you lie to me I was going to destroy Michael?" Jordie nodded that he did. "Good. Keep that in mind, because I'm going to ask you a question. Do you care about Michael?"
"Yes," the boy answered.
'You could say you love him, right?"
"Yes."
"And you wouldn't want to hurt him?"
"No."
"Okay then, let me remind you of something. Remember I told you I bugged your bedroom?" Jordie nodded. "Well, I know everything you guys did, so you might as well admit it."
The boy remained silent, seemingly unimpressed by his father's strong arm approach. Sensing this, Evan quickly changed tack.

"Look, Jordie, lots of famous people are bisexual and nobody gives a shit. They're not embarrassed. It's sorta cool, in a way."
After ten minutes of meandering monologue Evan had elicited nothing from his son but a blank stare. Frustrated, he switched back to his original approach. "I'm going to give you one last chance to save Michael. If you lie to me, then I'm going to take him down in front of the whole world, and it'll be all your fault because you're the one person who could have saved him."
Nothing.
In his heart, Evan already knew the truth; he didn't need Jordie to confirm it. But he believed if his son could just hear himself say it, if he could just spurt it out quickly and painlessly like the tooth, it would release him from the prison in his mind. Without a plan, Evan began babbling away again, saying whatever came to mind in the hope of eventually hitting on something that would push a button in his son and free him.
"I know about the kissing and the jerking off, so you're not telling me anything I don't already know," Evan lied. "This isn't about me finding anything out. It's about lying. And you know what's going to happen if you lie. So I'm going to make it very easy for you. I'm going to ask you one question. All you have to do is say yes, or no. That's it. Lie and Michael goes down. Tell me die truth and you save him."
Jordie remained silent for what seemed to Evan a hopeless amount of time. Then, "Promise?"
"Have I ever lied to you?"
"No."
And I never will."
"You won't hurt Michael, right?"
"Right."
"And I don t want anyone to know. Promise me you won't ever tell anyone."
"I swear,no one."
"Okay. What's the question?"
"Did Michael touch your penis?"
Jordie hesitated. Then, almost inaudibly, he whispered "Yes."
Evan would press no further. He had heard all he needed to hear. He reached out and hugged his son, and Jordie hugged back, tight.
"We never talked about it again," Evan later told the L.A. district attorney. To Evan, the details didn't matter. "The prison walls had cracked and I was confident the rest would take care of itself."

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But I actually don't believe Jordan "confessed" to anything at all on July 16, despite these threats and pressuring. The reason for that in the following month Evan tried hard to convince June that Michael molested Jordan, but never mentioned to her this alleged "confession". He only operated with Dr. Abrams' letter. I think he only made up that Jordan confessed to him on July 16, because that's the only way he could justify not to have returned Jordan to June.

Hi, respect77, the book is True and False Accusations of Child Sex Abuse, Richard A. Gardener, published Oct. 93. It's long but I read and made excerpts of the section on the accusing child and what criteria Gardener used to tell true from false accusations.

Here are my excerpts from the book and a comparison with Jordan's interview (the interview was first published in Ray's book ATG in 2004):

True and False Accusations of Child Abuse, Richard A. Gardener, M.D. (October, 1993)

“The Differentiating Criteria” (page 133-181, excerpts)

1. Degree of Hesitancy Regarding Divulgence of the Sexual Abuse

“Children who have been genuinely abused are often quite hesitant to reveal the abuse. . . . Accordingly, it is unlikely they will ever discuss the abuse spontaneously. . . .In contrast, those who are falsely accusing are likely to unashamedly and unhesitatingly describe their sexual experiences.”

Note: I would say that Jordan fits the bill for ‘unashamedly and unhesitatingly’ describing the ‘abuse’—he is never hesitant and just talks as if he is speaking of an everyday event. He is matter-of-fact, neutral, devoid of emotion. He might be speaking of a school trip to a museum.

2. Degree of Fear of Retaliation by the Accused

“The child who is fabricating sexual abuse generally does not describe fear of the alleged perpetrator and is usually free from tension in the perpetrator’s presence. . . . The child who has been genuinely abused will be quite fearful of the perpetrator.”

Note: Jordan has no fear of Michael at all. He is not in awe of him when Gardener asks if he is. Jordan says he is not in awe and that Michael is ‘just like, a regular guy” (page 45).. Far from being afraid of Michael, Jordan says he told him twice not to do something sexual (put his tongue in his mouth (page 25) and grab his butt and put his tongue in his ear (page 29)) and Michael didn’t do those things. Also when Gardener asks why Jordan still wanted to go on tour, in spite of the abuse, he says, “Because I was having fun. “ (p 42). The only fear he admits to is “maybe of cross-examination, but that’s all” (page 46).

3. Degree of Guilt over the Consequences of Divulgence to the Accused

“Older children who have been genuinely abused are likely to feel guilt over the divulgence of the sex abuse because of the appreciation of the terrible consequences of the disclosure to the perpetrator.” . . [In contrast, the falsely accusing child has no guilt.] ‘This guiltless disregard is one of the hallmarks of the fabricator.”

Note: In the interview, Jordan never acknowledges that his accusations will hurt Michael or have a negative effect on him. He is not concerned with any “terrible consequences” (for example, jail) at all.


4. Degree of Guilt over Participation in the Sexual Acts
“Children who have been genuinely abused may experience guilt over their participation in the sexual activities. . . . In contrast, children who provide false sexual abuse allegations do not generally experience such guilt because there were no sexual activities over which to feel guilty. They have not learned that many children who have been sexually abused may feel guilty about their participation. . . The fabricating child generally feels no guilt over the sexual activities allegedly engaged in. . . . They do not feel bad about themselves over what they have allegedly done; they feel angry over what they claim was done to them.”

Note: Jordan makes it clear he has no guilt. “I didn’t see anything wrong with it” (page 42). At one point he says maybe he could have been more forceful in saying no (page 45) but otherwise it is all Michael’s fault, and what was ‘wrong’ was not the sexual act itself but the fact that Michael was older: "What is wrong as you see it?" "Because he's a grown-up and he's using his experience, of his age in manipulating and coercing younger people who don't have as much experience as him, and don't have the ability to say no to someone powerful like that. He's using his power, his experience, his age - his overwhelmingness - to get what he wants." (43-44) Here Jordan shows that he is angry at Michael and does not feel bad about himself at all. (Yet he did say no to Michael and said he was NOT in awe of him). Gardener asks him directly: "Do you feel guilty about having participated in those acts?""Yeah. I regret doing it." (46). Regret is the word Jordan uses, instead of using the word guilt.

5. Degree of Specificity of the Details of the Sexual Abuse

“Children who have been genuinely abused are more likely to be able to provide specific details of the sex abuse because they can refer to an internal visual image related to the abuse experience. When talking about the abuse, the visual image that is brought into mind includes many details that go beyond the imagery directly related to the abuse. . . . In contrast, children whose accusations are false are far less likely to have such an internal image because there was no actual experience that they can bring into conscious awareness. Accordingly, when asked to provide these details they may say, “I forgot, “I don’t remember,” or “Ask my mother” . . . Typically, in the earlier interviews, nonabused children provide little if any additional details and confine themselves to vague and general statements about the alleged abuse. . . Children who provide false accusations may refer to the abuse in general terms and even utilize adult terminology, such as “I was sexually molested” or “I was sexually abused.” . . . . In contrast, the child who has suffered bona fide sexual abuse will usually provide specific details, and they will be consistently the same on subsequent interviews.”

Note: Jordan does NOT provide details and just goes for generalities, fitting the ‘vague and general statements’ that Gardener says is the hallmark of the fabricator. He also uses adult language, such as ‘graduate to a new sexual act,’ to describe the molestation: "Yes, like every time he would graduate to a new sexual act, we'd continue that and graduate some more." (21). Later Jordan talks about Monaco where “the bad stuff happened." "What happened?""I don't know. I think when he convinced me to take a bath with him or something. “ (31) Pretty vague—I don’t know, I think, or something. "And while he was masturbating you, what was he doing?""Just that, nothing." (35). The lack of detail is incredible and very noticeable. Here is another vague, detail-less account of molestation: "What happened at Euro-Disney?" "He continued to masturbate me.""About how many times do you think?""About once a day. And that was it for Euro-Disney - and France, in general." (36) No details and a quick shift to “that was it.” And yet Jordan says this was his first sexual encounter with anyone and the first time he had ejaculated outside of a wet dream. (33-34) He is also very blasé about Michael supposedly performing oral sex on him: "And then he masturbated me there, and one time when he was masturbating me, um, instead, he masturbated me with his mouth.""So he put his mouth on your penis?""Yes. Then, um, from that point, till the end of our relationship, he masturbated me with his mouth. And that was as far as it went." (37) Do you see any specific details here?

Here are some details that Gardener says might be included: “the place where the abuse occurred, often the approximate time of day (or night), the presence (or absence) of other individuals, and statements made by the abuser, the child, and others who might have been present.” (142) Also the truthful accusations come from a child who can “describe the details of the abuse, e.g. what exactly was said, what was worn, and who was in the vicinity.” (142).
How many times does Jordan say “I don’t know” or “I don’t remember” or “Ask my mother”? Throughout the interview. He has a lot of trouble with chronology and trying to figure out when things happened, what month or what season (before summer or after summer). The only things he remembers clearly in terms of dates are his sister’s birthday in July, his school report on To Kill a Mocking Bird, and his school graduation, all events unrelated to the accusations.
I counted approximately 47 times Jordan says I don’t know, I don’t remember, ask my mother. Some of these statements are of course normal, but there seems to be more than one would expect.

6. Credibility of the Description

“One does well to ask the child about any statements or conversations that took place in the course of the molestation. Again, one wants to assess the credibility of the conversation, especially if it is consistent with the activities being described. A child who has genuinely been abused is likely to provide comments along these lines: “He said I was his favorite child, and that he loved me more than the others,” “He said he loves me so much that he wants me to feel very good” . . . In contrast, children who are fabricating, having had no such conversations, are more likely to say that, “He said nothing” or “I forget.” . . . Another clue to the credibility of the description is the child’s emotional tone while describing the abuse. . . . If the child has been traumatized, then one would expect sadness, grief, fear, guilt, and other appropriate emotional reactions to be exhibited at the time the child relates the experiences. In contrast, children who are fabricating will typically present their scenarios in a singsong fashion, as if they were reciting a well-memorized poem.”

Note: There is no “sadness, grief, fear, guilt, and other appropriate emotional reactions” expressed in Jordan’s interview. There are no comments that Jordan revealed about Michael was supposed to have said during the molestation. If we believe Jordan’s account, neither of them spoke! Or at least no conversation was revealed in the interview—they did their mutual masturbations and ‘that was it.’ Jordan does give some very few words that Michael was supposed to say once in a while (33) but this is rare. Here is a good example of the lack of emotion and the lack of specifics: "And he, like, continued that [masturbating Jordan]. He stopped everything else that we were originally doing together; we just took baths. And we went to Euro-Disney after we went to Monaco." (35) Yup, lots of masturbation, lots of baths, and then on to Euro-Disney.


7. Variations in the Description

“Children who have been genuinely abused will most often present a description that does not vary over time. They consistently rely on their memory of actual events. In contrast, children who have not been abused, having no actual experience to bring into memory, are likely to provide different renditions at different times.”

Note: Since we do not have multiple interviews or statements from Jordan, this is hard to detect. Certainly, this was true of Gavin Arvizo’s accusations, however.

8. Advanced Sexual Knowledge for Age

“Children who have been genuinely abused often have a sexual vocabulary beyond that of other children their age.”

Note: Jordan, on the contrary, does not even seem to know what a wet dream is—he calls it a ‘wet something.’ He acts like he has virtually no sexual knowledge, certainly less knowledge than we would expect from a boy of 13 almost 14.

9. Sexual Excitation

“Sexually abused children may talk frequently about sex, to the point of obsession. . . They may have an understanding of sexual matters far above and beyond other children their age.”

Note: Jordan does not seem to have more knowledge—he seems to have less knowledge than boys his age. He does not seem to have any sexual excitation. When he talks about having been masturbated ‘to climax’ it is devoid of excitation, even though he makes a vague statement that it ‘felt good.’ He shows more excitement when he talks about a girl at school: "Do you talk a lot with girls primarily? Do you spend a lot of time with girls?""Mmm-hmm.""I see you smiling. Do you have a girl friend at this point?""I'm sort of in the process of chasing after one.""So you got your eye on her?" "Yeah, I guess you could call it that.""Have you kissed anybody yet?""I kissed this one girl." (54). In contrast, there is no reaction when he speaks about kissing Michael or having mutual masturbation to climax with him.


10. Attitude Towards One’s Genitals

“Children who have suffered genuine sex abuse often consider their genitals, the organs involved in the ‘crime,’ to have been damaged. . . . In contrast, children who provide false allegations do not generally describe such feelings of genital deformity, injury, etc.”

Note: Jordan does not see that his genitals have been damaged or are deformed. He just seems to have no reaction at all to his genitals and how he had so many climaxes (allegedly) with Michael.

11. Desensitization Play

Here Dr. Gardener talks about “traumatic reliving” and “spontaneous reenactment” which are coping mechanisms that occur in the play of abused children.

Note: Jordan has no trauma and no traumatic reliving or re-enactments of the alleged abuse.

12. Threats and Bribes

Here Dr. Gardener speaks of threats, such as murdering loved ones, if the abuse is revealed, and bribes to keep secrets. “Children who are fabricating sex abuse have not been exposed to such threats or bribes and are generally not sophisticated enough to describe them.”

Note: Jordan says Michael told him to keep things in a secret box, and he also says Michael said he could go to ‘juvenile hall’ if he revealed the abuse. (41)

13. Custody/Visitation Disputes

“Sex-abuse allegations made in the context of a custody/visitation dispute are more likely to be false. This is especially the case if the sex-abuse allegation arose after the onset of the dispute.”

Note: The sex abuse allegation arose after Evan asked for and got custody of Jordan from June for one week, supposedly, but then never returned him. Once June got an ex-partide order for Jordan to be returned to her custody, Evan sent Jordan to Dr. Abrams, who reported the alleged abuse.

14. The Litany

“Mention has been made of the litany that false accusers may have created for the benefit of the parade of examiners who interview them. This has a rehearsed quality and may include adult terminology such as “Daddy molested me” and “I was sexually abused.” . . . Children who have been genuinely molested will not have a litany at the outset, nor are they likely to use adult terms. Rather, they are hesitant to divulge the abuse and will often speak of it in a fragmented way. . . . Children who have been genuinely abused are not creating any stories. They are telling the truth about an actual experience. Their renditions have the quality of credibility, rather than a rote repetition of a well-rehearsed scenario. In contrast, children who fabricate are creating a tale. In order to be successful when they relate their stories to evaluators, they make sure to “memorize their lines.”

Note: When Gardener sometimes interrupts the litany, Jordan either stops him, "Well, I’m getting to that” (16), or tries to go back to the litany: “Do you want me to describe what his room looked like?” (20) Here Gardener interrupts the litany, but Jordan ignores his question and just keeps reciting the litany: "Right. And he put his hand on my shorts and he said, 'Now doesn't that feel good.' And he rubbed up and down. And I said 'Yeah.'" "Did he masturbate you to orgasm, to climax?""Well, then he said, 'Well wait, it gets even better,' and he put his hand under my shorts and masturbated me to the end." (34)

15. The Borrowed Scenario

“Children who have been genuinely abused describe well the details of their abuse and generally confine sexual discussion to these specific experiences. Those who are providing false accusations, having no such experiences, create their scenarios. Originally, the basic elements and guidelines are provided by the programmer [the adult coaching the child to make false accusations] . . . . Additional elements in the scenario, however, are inevitably brought in.”

Gardener says the additional elements may come from various sources, including video and audio tapes about sex abuse, classroom sex-abuse prevention programs, pornographic movies, as well as from others who have been abused, etc.

“[T]he child who is falsely accusing sex abuse will often use terms “borrowed” from others . . . . Other comments “lifted” from such materials and programs include references to “good touches” and “bad touches,” comments about “my body is my own,” and “I said no.”

Note: Jordan’s account was fabricated with help from the following possible sources: Barry Rothman, Evan Chandler, Victor Gutierrez, and Larry Feldman, and maybe others, such as Blanca Francia whose accounts Jordan could have known via the other sources, such as VG. Here is an example where Jordan talks about Michael’s “pattern”—something he must have gotten from someone else. "How could this have left you? If this had gone on and not been interrupted, how could you have ended up?""According to his pattern, I believe he would have left me and, sort of dumped me, I guess you could call it. And I would be, sort of, a vegetable.""Why a vegetable?” "Because he would continue to do those things and I would have no knowing of what else is out there." (48)


16. Depression

“Children who have been genuinely sexually abused are often depressed, especially if they have been abused frequently over time, and especially if there have been terrible threats made regarding disclosure of their sexual experiences. The manifestations of depression may be depressive affect, loss of appetite, listlessness, loss of enjoyment in play, impaired school curiosity and motivation, poor appetite, and difficulty sleeping. The depression may often be associated with suicidal thoughts . . . . Those who are falsely accusing are not generally depressed, although they may profess being upset over their alleged sexual experiences.”

Note: Jordan shows no sign of depression. There is no listlessness, he claims he is doing well at school, is interested in girls, and does not indicate any fears or other negative effects.

17. Withdrawal

“Children who have been genuinely abused may often withdraw from involvement with others. They prefer more a fantasy world that is safe and free from the traumas of their real life. . . . In school they are described by their teachers as being removed from the others and as having little interest in learning, and even socializing with their classmates. They are listless, wan, sad, and pathetic. They have few friends in their neighborhood, and they will neither seek nor are sought by peers. Those who falsely accuse are not generally described as withdrawn; they are typically outgoing and outspoken. . . . . There is a similarity between the withdrawal of the child who is sexually abused and the flinching of the child who has been physically abused. In both cases the child feels relatively safe when a suspected individual is at a distance. However, the closer an adult figure is, the greater the likelihood the child will be tense.”

Note: Jordan is not withdrawn. He is involved with his peers and talks about a girl he likes. He talks about getting top marks at school with pride.


18. Pathological Compliance

“Sexually abused children are often quite compliant. Their experiences with the perpetrator have often been ones in which they have been threatened that noncompliance will result in terrible consequences to themselves and their loved ones. Especially in situations where the perpetrator lives in the home, the child’s life is controlled, both body and mind. It is only through compliance that the child may be protected from the realization of the threats. Many develop a cheerful façade that extends to inhibiting themselves from expressing dissatisfaction in any situation and contributes to their compliant behavior. . . . Children who falsely accuse are less likely to be compliant. More often they are quite assertive and angrily and vociferously express their vilifications of the accused.”

Note: There is no compliance. Even though Jordan says he was talked into believing Michael’s alleged claim that there was nothing wrong with having sex together, he also talks about how he said no twice to what Michael was doing and how Michael stopped those activities in response. In other words, Jordan claims that he was calling the shots on those occasions. Jordan does not seem listless and apathetic. Evan also says, according to Gardener, that Jordan is being ‘controlling’ with his new girlfriend (55). Jordan also says he likes his father’s home better because his father is less strict and there are fewer rules to follow: "My mom's rules are more strict. Like, go to bed this time, do homework right when you come home from school." (52)


19. Psychosomatic Disorders

“Children who have been genuinely abused are more likely to suffer psychosomatic disorders than those who have not. Their bodies have indeed been traumatized. . . .such children may develop formidable tensions and anxieties, which may have somatic components such as nausea, vomiting, and stomachaches. . . . Those who falsely accuse do not typically suffer with psychosomatic complaints. Because many are encouraged to express their anger, they tend to externalize it rather than to internalize their emotions.”

Note: No psychosomatic disorders are discussed in the interview.

20. Regressive Behavior

“Children who have been sexually abused are likely to exhibit regressive behavior such as enuresis, encopresis, thumbsucking, babytalk, and separation anxieties. Having been psychologically traumatized at a higher level of development, they may regress to earlier levels in order to gain the securities attendant to these more primitive states. Children who are falsely accusing are less likely to exhibit such regressive manifestations.”

Note: No regressive behavior is discussed.

21. Sense of Betrayal

“Children who have genuinely been abused may suffer with deep-seated feelings of having been betrayed. They feel betrayed by the offender because of his exploitation of them, and they may feel betrayed by their mothers, especially in situations in which the latter does not provide them with protection from further abuse.”

Gardener quotes Kaufman (1987): “The abuse serves to rob children of the small degree of personal power they may have, leaving them helpless and defenseless in a world in which they have also lost faith in their parents, their primary protectors.” Gardener says the children may also feel betrayed by a third party who reveals the abuse to others, such as school psychologists, etc. “The child who provides false sex-abuse accusations does not exhibit this sense of betrayal by evaluators. In fact, the child is happy to provide the disclosure and welcomes its dissemination by the interviewer.”

Note: Jordan does not express a sense of betrayal or violation of his personal integrity. He talks about being manipulated but there is no outrage. It is more a sense of ‘he shouldn’t have done that’ as we would say when someone made a mistake rather than committed a great crime that violated another and hurt deeply. Gardener asks Jordan how this experience could hurt him: "How?""I don't know." "Just your own guess.""It could make me depressed or something, I don't know." (48)


22. Sleep Disturbances

“Because putting the child to bed is commonly used as an opportunity for sexually abusing children, it is not surprising that children who are sexually abused may fear going to sleep. The tensions and anxieties associated with going to bed may contribute to the development of sleep disturbances. These include refusal to go to bed, insomnia, bedwetting, and nightmares . . . . Children who fabricate sex abuse are not as likely to develop sleep disturbances from the fear of being sexually abused at bedtime.”

Gardener does not consider nightmares in themselves to be an indication of sex abuse as there may be other sources, and he thinks it’s important to ask about the content of the nightmares and whether the accuser is specifically present or identifiable in the nightmare.

Note: Jordan mentions no sleep disturbances or nightmares.

23. Chronicity of the Abuse

“By the time bona fide sex abuse comes to the attention of others, it may have been going on for a long period. This is especially the case because the majority of pedophiles involve themselves in such behavior on a compulsive and frequent basis. . . . False accusers usually describe only one or two experiences initially.” Gardener says that this is not a “strong differentiating criteria because there certainly are children who have been sexually abused on only one or two occasions before being brought to the attention of authorities. And there are false accusers who have described ongoing sexual encounters over time. This drawback notwithstanding, chronicity still speaks more for the abuse being genuine.”

Note: Jordan is not clear about the number of times the molestation happened.. Gardener tries to ask him how many times Michael allegedly performed oral sex on Jordan and there is this exchange: "About how many occasions did he do that?""I don't know but I can tell you where.""Where did it take place?""In my father's house, his Hideout, my mother's house, and Neverland.""Okay, so these are four different places, so obviously it had to happen at least four times. Right?""Oh yeah, of course.""But I want you to give me a guess - - ""Okay. More than fifteen, that's safe. But he had me masturbate him.""On how many occasions?""About ten“(37-38).


24. Seductive Behavior (Primarily Girls)
Here Gardener talks about how children who have been abused may behave seductively towards the abuser during the interview with the examiner. He sees this as one of the values of having a joint interview with the child, the accused, and the examiner, so that this seductiveness can be observed.

25. Pseudomaturity (Primarily Girls)

Here he speaks of the child taking on mature adult features, in girls this may mean taking on ‘wifelike’ behaviors (housekeeping, being a confidant, etc.).

26. Antisocial Acting Out

“Children who have been sexually abused in the home situation have much to be angry about, especially if there has been a coercive element associated with the abuse and they recognize the degree to which they have been exploited. Because of their fear of the perpetrator, they are not capable of expressing their resentments directly to him. Accordingly, they may act out their anger elsewhere.” This acting out may occur outside the home, “especially at school and in the neighborhood.”

27. School Attendance and Performance

Gardener discusses behaviors that may occur at school as a result of abuse, such as arriving early and leaving late (to avoid being at home), trouble concentrating at school, inability to relate to peers, drops in academic performance. However, Gardener thinks many other factors besides sexual abuse may result in these school behaviors, so he writes, “I do not believe that the examiner does well to consider school performance difficulties as an important indicator” to distinguish between true and false accusations of sex abuse.

28. Fears, Tension, and Anxiety

“Children who have been subjected to frequent episodes of sexual abuse may become chronically fearful and tense. Such children exhibit the chronic state of hypervigilance . . . They often present with an expression of what Goodwin (1987) refers to as ‘frozen watchfulness.’ These children not only exhibit the previously described fear of people of the same sex as the perpetrator (more often than not, men) but fear of situations similar to those in which the abuse occurred: bedrooms, bathrooms, showers, washrooms, etc. . . . In contrast, children who are fabricating sex abuse are far less likely to present with such a picture.”

Note: Jordan is not fearful or tense or showing anxiety and hypervigilance.

29. Running Away From Home

This is self-explanatory.

30. Severe Pathology

The child may become involved in ‘indiscriminate accusations of sex abuse involving a wide variety of individuals. No one is immune (therapists included).” Gardener sees this as one way a child may present “severe psycho-pathology.”

Concluding Comments

“the greater the number of indicators present, the greater the likelihood the child was sexually abused. Equally, if not more important than the quantity of the indicators satisfied is the quality.”

Gardener says the examiner must evaluate the accused (the alleged perpetrator) and the accuser (the accusing parent), as well as the child.

“Of course, these indicators for the child must not be considered in isolation from the indicators of the accuser and the alleged perpetrator. The examiner must consider all three parties and not come to any conclusions before assessing all three.”

He has chapters on the alleged perpetrator and the falsely accusing parent, so I will look at those next. These criteria are taken from Chapter Three on The Child.

Note: Gardener says a few times that June is outside the room where he is interviewing Jordan. He also says he has already talked to both June and Evan and plans to talk to them again, so I assume that was enough for him to do the evaluation. Even though he would have liked to talk to Michael, there was no way that was going to happen.

(If anyone wants to use this info, please cite the source 'cause I spent a lot of time on this. Thanks.)

^ Very in depth, interesting read, very useful for fans and I agree with all of it.

I wanted to add though:

Note: Jordan says Michael told him to keep things in a secret box, and he also says Michael said he could go to ‘juvenile hall’ if he revealed the abuse. (41)

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He seems to not even know:

"Yeah. In terms of did he make any threats?"

"I think he may have said, like, if you tell - - if people say 'Don't worry, just tell us, Michael will go to jail and nothing will happen to me you.' He said that wasn't true, and I could, like, go to juvenile hall or something."

"That he could go to jail but you'd go to juvenile hall?"

"Something like that."

"That he himself could go to jail?"

"I don't specifically remember. I'm almost positive though, that he said about juvenile hall. I'm almost positive he said that, but I do indeed remember that he said that he would go to jail, and that, like, I wouldn't get off Scott free."

"Did you believe that?"

"Well, I didn't really believe it at the time, and I definitely don't now. But at the time I didn't really believe it but I said, okay, whatever, and just went along with it."

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So much of it just doesn't make any sense.

"He may have said"
"I don't specifically remember"
"I'm almost positive"
"But I do indeed remember"

He hedges every bet about something.

Like when it seems like he's talking about Brett Barnes denying being abused on TV, he says that Brett is lying... or maybe Michael lied to him about Brett being abused... or maybe Brett's lying. Then his justification for why Brett was abused:

"Because in public, when he’s with [Brett], they're very close together physically and verbally and relationship-wise. And if one were to observe things in public, how they acted to each other, one would come to that conclusion, that it was more then just a friendly relationship."

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Except nobody ever has. The only person who claimed this would be Victor Gutierrez, who contacted the Neverland 5. But he isn't basing this on anything he'd witnessed privately, it sounds like he's basing it on what other people have said about them. My opinion is this is something Victor/Evan had spoken about, how Brett was their big victim, so he was relaying Evan's perception about it, which is why it's such an outsider opinion.

He also claimed this:

"What about trust of your mother? Do you think any trust of your mother has been affected?"

"Well, not because she, as people would say, she wanted to pimp me out. More because of maybe, I tried to tell her one time and she didn't believe me."

"When was that? Do you remember?"

"No."

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June has never spoken about this. And "as people would say, she wanted to pimp me out" - mirrors exactly what Evan Chandler would claim June had done, it sounds like "as people would say," Jordan was repeating specifically what his father was saying.

And this stuff:

"He said there's nothing wrong with it. He would get me to do things and convince me that the things he was doing weren't wrong, because he would talk about people who levitate, you know, it was weird."

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LOL the hell?

And:

"How could this have left you? If this had gone on and not been interrupted, how could you have ended up?"

"According to his pattern, I believe he would have left me and, sort of dumped me, I guess you could call it. And I would be, sort of, a vegetable."

"Why a vegetable?"

"Because he would continue to do those things and I would have no knowing of what else is out there."

"Say that again. You wouldn't know what else is out there?"

"Right. Like, he didn't like it if I would want to call a girl or something. You know, I wouldn't know, like, there were other options."

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So he'd only be affected because there would be "other options" he wouldn't know about? Basically dating girls? But he did know there were other options, it sounded like he'd been after Sonnet since around when it was happening. He didn't not realize she was there while it was going on. He knew she was "an option."

Also the thing about being betrayed - before Evan knew of the supposed abuse he's taped on July 8th talking about how Jordan had been manipulated, and that was what angered him. He talks about how Jordan is like June, incapable of love. He's angry that MJ has any power in that family. So when Jordan says he feels "manipulated" and all the "power, age, experience" things, Evan was really feeling that was what MJ was doing wrong, which was having any influence on Jordan's life.

The whole thing is just very odd.

And another point, Respec77 mentioned that Jordan was actually negatively described by someone who worked at Neverland during 2005, I forget who, but they said he got in trouble I think?

Petrarose said:

Also, notice that Evans runs all over the TV claiming Michael molested Jordan, but when he had the opportunity to go to court and have Michael put in jail he hid.

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Yes. For all the talk that goes on that the Chandlers could not possibly have been lying, why do the media and the general public make such lame excuses for them not going to trial with this? Seriously, no decent parent making accusations like that would settle out of court for ANY amount of money. But most of the public gives the Chandlers a pass like they did the right thing. People should actually be just as upset with the Chandlers as they are/were with Michael for the settlement. And I just don't buy it that the Chandlers had no choice in not dealing with the case in criminal court, which they could have still done in spite of the settlement. Nothing would have stopped them from taking this to trial if they were really telling the truth, in my opinion.

Thanks for sharing what u read on Richard A. Gardener book, Jamba. Some real important things are pointed out to see the difference of true and false allegations.

The only thing I would disagree with that Gardener allegedly said is this statement

An adult male unrelated to a young boy should not be sharing a bed with that boy when other beds are available, and he considered that a sexual act (it's in the interview).

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If he did actually say that I COMPLETELY disagree! I mean really a sexual act just by sharing a freakin bed?! WTH?! As if a bed is only to have sex in! There is something called sleep people do on them too! SMH People thinking like that is the reason why MJ can't shake the allegations off til this day, no matter how much we dig for the truth and that's sad. Because it's something they wouldn't do and to them it don't look right so they wanna make something bigger out of it and that's is just wrong.

Thanks, Jamba! Very interesting. Since Gardner was not the type of psychiatrist who believed every accusation made by a child, I have always had a hard time believing the Chandlers' claim that he concluded Jordan was molested. Reading this makes it even more hard to believe.

"Gardener says the examiner must evaluate the accused (the alleged perpetrator) and the accuser (the accusing parent), as well as the child.

“Of course, these indicators for the child must not be considered in isolation from the indicators of the accuser and the alleged perpetrator. The examiner must consider all three parties and not come to any conclusions before assessing all three.”"

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Since Gardner did not talk to and evaluate the accused, he probably refused to make a conclusion, so there goes the Chandlers' lie about him concluding Jordan told the truth. If Gardner concluded Jordan told the truth why did they need Stan Katz?

“The child who is fabricating sexual abuse generally does not describe fear of the alleged perpetrator and is usually free from tension in the perpetrator’s presence. . . . The child who has been genuinely abused will be quite fearful of the perpetrator.”

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Yeah, the only fear Jordan expressed was of cross-examination... Gardner obviously meant the type of fear he's talking about in his book when he asked him that question, but Jordan didn't even know what Gardner was talking about, so he said he was only afraid of cross-examination. When in 2005 June was asked about what changes she noticed in Jordan's behavior during the alleged abuse her answer was that Jordan wanted to spend all his time with Michael. So it's the complete opposite of the fear of the alleged perpetrator Gardner talks about.

"Note: When Gardener sometimes interrupts the litany, Jordan either stops him, "Well, I’m getting to that” (16), or tries to go back to the litany: “Do you want me to describe what his room looked like?” (20) Here Gardener interrupts the litany, but Jordan ignores his question and just keeps reciting the litany: "Right. And he put his hand on my shorts and he said, 'Now doesn't that feel good.' And he rubbed up and down. And I said 'Yeah.'" "Did he masturbate you to orgasm, to climax?""Well, then he said, 'Well wait, it gets
even better,' and he put his hand under my shorts and masturbated me to the end." (34)"

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Yeah, and the whole: "the next step is... the next step is..."


Also consider, that when you look at Ray's book you can see that Evan was well prepared to make these allegations. I bet he read books by psychologists to try to prepare Jordan to make the story look as credible as he can. (Hence words like "pattern" - which, I assume, would come from such books. Since there was no other accuser what "pattern" that would be in Michael's case?)
But despite of the preparation it still wasn't a convincing performance by Jordan. You can learn texts but it's harder to convincingly fake emotions.

And one more thing: Gardner had probably no knowledge of the convo between Schwartz and Evan so he could not yet detect the same phrases and logic used by Evan in the phone convo and Jordan in his interview. That would have made the coaching even clearer to Gardner if it wasn't already.

bluetopez;3776705 said:

Thanks for sharing what u read on Richard A. Gardener book, Jamba. Some real important things are pointed out to see the difference of true and false allegations.

The only thing I would disagree with that Gardener allegedly said is this statement If he did actually say that I COMPLETELY disagree! I mean really a sexual act just by sharing a freakin bed?! WTH?! As if a bed is only to have sex in! There is something called sleep people do on them too! SMH People thinking like that is the reason why MJ can't shake the allegations off til this day, no matter how much we dig for the truth and that's sad. Because it's something they wouldn't do and to them it don't look right so they wanna make something bigger out of it and that's is just wrong.

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It's something that Gardner said to Jordan during the interview, so we cannot be sure if Gardner said that because he really thinks so or because he wanted to see how leadable and suggestible Jordan is when he tells him things like "most people would say this", "most people would say that".

“Okay, I just wanted to get an idea when there was contact. See, in phase one, there was
nothing sexual, right?”
“That’s right, in phase one.”
“In phase two, we’re still talking about nothing sexual but there was contact with him as
human beings as opposed to the telephone. I would say, sleeping in bed, I'll call that sexual.
Some people might not but I would."
"Right, and I consider that too, and that's where it switched."
"Most people would consider it sexual to sleep in bed with a person. How long was the time
frame from the time you first saw him in the flesh, and the time you slept in bed with him?"
"I don't know."

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Sharing bed is not a sexual act in itself. But Gardner tells Jordan he thinks it is. To which Jordan says "Right, and I consider that too". I don't know, but I have the feeling he's testing Jordan's suggestibility, since sharing bed is onviously NOT a sexual act in itself.