Murray Trial - 30 September - Day 4 - Discussion

[TheChosenOne]

All discussion here.

Please feel free to check out the Summary thread.

There is also a thread for the time zones for your area.

 

[Vici]

Re: Murray Trial - 30 September - Day Four - Discussion

I believe the paramedics will testify today?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Murray Trial - 30 September - Day Four - Discussion

Yes. thats what was reported yesterday and in more articles today. if i remember right from the prelim they also saw murray hiding/putting vials away and saw him continue to do this as took mj to the ambulance and the had to wait for him. also murray lieing about what he had given mj . it will be intresting how the defence try to accuse the medics of being involved in some sort of conspiracy like the security

 

[MJfan10]

Re: Murray Trial - 30 September - Day Four - Discussion

So the paramedics will testify today for sure?

 

[twinklEE]

Re: Murray Trial - 30 September - Day Four - Discussion

exactly it's gonna be harder to spin it as far as the paramedics are concerned cuz unlike security they had no relationship with Michael and presumably saw him for the first time.

 

[christy]

Re: Murray Trial - 30 September - Day Four - Discussion

Kudos to ya'll for all the updates and daily summaries.
Feel free to weigh in on the witnesses, yeah need your 2 cents...
how they did for the prosecution.
For Example, Alveraz how's his testimony, how significant is his piece ...
..you know a round-up...a daily commentary how each witness faired.
On a scale of 1-10, rate their effectiveness.
Will the jury be feeling it or what
...just throwing it out there...
because of the time difference I'mma not watch the entire duration.
Gotta play catch -up...I'm counting on
the daily weigh-ins, & summaries and commentaries.
Ivy, Elusive and ya'll.... great job!

 

[soulmum]

Re: Murray Trial - 30 September - Day Four - Discussion

About to start day 4 and it's already tough. Together though we'll get through. Justice for Michael.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Murray Trial - 30 September - Day Four - Discussion

Yes. thats what was reported yesterday and in more articles today. if i remember right from the prelim they also saw murray hiding/putting vials away and saw him continue to do this as took mj to the ambulance and the had to wait for him. also murray lieing about what he had given mj . it will be intresting how the defence try to accuse the medics of being involved in some sort of conspiracy like the security

Exactly. So far, the defense is trying to build a case based on "someone else did it," and "someone else was responsible for NOT saving Michael." A kind of "dog ate my homework" defense? But the medics will be purely unassailable in terms of any kind of "conspiracy," or incompetence." As experienced professionals, what they saw made NO sense from a medical standpoint.

Now that we're a bit into the trial, we can see that the defense is using a "pasta method?" Throw the wet noodles at the wall and see which ones stick? There is the "demerol withdrawal" line of defense. Easily refuted by frequency of Klein visits (no more than three a week. Not enough to cause addiction), and also can be refuted by the AR. There is the "Alberto should have called 911" defense. But, NO. Murray was there, with Michael, for a long time, and failed to call 911. There is the "Kai Chase should have callled 911 defense." She had NO idea what was going on, and if Murray had time to stand at the head of the stairs, surely he had time to dial three little numbers on a phone? There is the "Michael did it to himself" defense. I'm sure medical testimony will prove the impossibility of that scenario. Even if he could have injected the propofol, he never would have done it without the lidocaine. (If he did, his scream would have been heard around the world!)

So far, no "defense" is actually sticking to the wall, and the EMTs should be major points for the prosecution. IMHO.

 

[MJfan10]

Re: Murray Trial - 30 September - Day Four - Discussion

About to start day 4 and it's already tough. Together though we'll get through. Justice for Michael.

I know how you feel. I'm exhausted. And it's only Day 4!!

 

[Ramona122003]

Re: Murray Trial - 30 September - Day Four - Discussion

Exactly. So far, the defense is trying to build a case based on "someone else did it," and "someone else was responsible for NOT saving Michael." A kind of "dog ate my homework" defense? But the medics will be purely unassailable in terms of any kind of "conspiracy," or incompetence." As experienced professionals, what they saw made NO sense from a medical standpoint.

Now that we're a bit into the trial, we can see that the defense is using a "pasta method?" Throw the wet noodles at the wall and see which ones stick? There is the "demerol withdrawal" line of defense. Easily refuted by frequency of Klein visits (no more than three a week. Not enough to cause addiction), and also can be refuted by the AR. There is the "Alberto should have called 911" defense. But, NO. Murray was there, with Michael, for a long time, and failed to call 911. There is the "Kai Chase should have callled 911 defense." She had NO idea what was going on, and if Murray had time to stand at the head of the stairs, surely he had time to dial three little numbers on a phone? There is the "Michael did it to himself" defense. I'm sure medical testimony will prove the impossibility of that scenario. Even if he could have injected the propofol, he never would have done it without the lidocaine. (If he did, his scream would have been heard around the world!)

So far, no "defense" is actually sticking to the wall, and the EMTs should be major points for the prosecution. IMHO.

Keep in mind, however, that so far we've only seen the DA's side. I am quite curious to know who the defense has to try to defend Murray's actions. I can't think of anyone who would approve of anything Murray has done or say the opposite of the medical report. All the possible witnesses I have have heard: Klien, Karen, or even the family members, are all damage good and would be easily picked apart with anyone with a brain.

Do we know who Murray maybe calling?

 

[wendy2004]

Re: Murray Trial - 30 September - Day Four - Discussion

Keep in mind, however, that so far we've only seen the DA's side. I am quite curious to know who the defense has to try to defend Murray's actions. I can't think of anyone who would approve of anything Murray has done or say the opposite of the medical report. All the possible witnesses I have have heard: Klien, Karen, or even the family members, are all damage good and would be easily picked apart with anyone with a brain.

Do we know who Murray maybe calling?

Agree.

Defense plans to call Paul White, the FATHER of Propofol. But I believe even under cross-exam by the DA, the Father will admit Murray shouldn't have left the room with MJ unmonitored. Translation: The rest of his testimony about whatever else will be moot...imo.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

i think murray's defence has been severely limited by the judge. They were definitely going to throw shade on all theother doctors in mj;s life and portray mj as a drug addict and overwhelmed by financial pressures - all this has not been allowed, despite valiant efforts to introduce klein into every cross-exam.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Re: Murray Trial - 30 September - Day Four - Discussion

Yes. thats what was reported yesterday and in more articles today. if i remember right from the prelim they also saw murray hiding/putting vials away and saw him continue to do this as took mj to the ambulance and the had to wait for him. also murray lieing about what he had given mj . it will be intresting how the defence try to accuse the medics of being involved in some sort of conspiracy like the security

I don't know how defence can explain this away. A blue bag with all these important items inside was found by police stuffed into a closet in an adjoining room. Who but murray placed it there and why, if not to hide it?

 

[claudiadoina]

I am so mad at everyone who was there then!So very mad.They were a bunch of grown up people and they couldn't figure it out what they have to do.WTF you see a 50 years old man not breathing and don't call 911 RIGHT AWAY?Fk the doctor, you don't have to be a doctor to see that.And they call the kids?What for?And the security, what they were payed for?You would have expected to know how to react/act in a crisis situation!!!They were all stepping on each others feet and do nothing.

He shouldn't have died.Michael shouldn't have died.

Yeah, they loved Michael, they were great witnesseses, good for them but WHO CARES?


MICHAEL IS DEAD.

 

[Ramona122003]

i think murray's defence has been severely limited by the judge. They were definitely going to throw shade on all theother doctors in mj;s life and portray mj as a drug addict and overwhelmed by financial pressures - all this has not been allowed, despite valiant efforts to introduce klein into every cross-exam.

I thought as much.

The problem with the addict charge is that Murray should had known since he was Michael's if he was or wasn't an addict. If he was, why was he given him drugs? I don't understand how he could justify that. I can't think of any doctor who would say that the best way to help an addict is to give them what they want or give them more drugs. He also really can't say he didn't known about Klien since he was Michael's doctors for over 20 years and even casually people knew about him since Michael was all over TMZ going to his office. Also, why would an addict go to doctor office every other day for their drug fix. That's what RX is for. There is also the fact that Murray told everyone, that can't deny this because Murray sent an email to the insurance company on the 25th, that Michael was fine and healthy. What reason did he have not to tell at least the people from AEG that Michael wasn't well and they should delay for the time being.


Wendy, thank you for reminded me of Paul White, however, I can't see how he could say anything Murray did was okay. Especially with leaving the room and not calling for help right away.


I still also wonder how the defense can say on one hand that Michael died instantly, yet Murray supposedly felt a pulse. Are they going to say that Murray was so desperate that he imagine things?

I just can't see the defense no matter how hard I try.

 

[twinklEE]

I believe Michael was already dead when Murray called Kai Chase/security/Prince.
But I def get ur frustration

 

[Ramona122003]

I don't get it, what's up with fans blaming the witnesses. Only one person saw that Michael wasn't breathing before 911 was called and Murray asked him to pack drugs. He thought it was the purpose of taking them to the hospital.

Another thing, Murray has a cell phone too. Why wouldn't the people in the house think that Murray didn't call 911 himself if he had time to lean against the railings yelling at them. He didn't say to call 911, so they could just assume he did or the crisis could be handle without alerting everyone outside the house since they knew once they called 911, it would be a mob scene.

 

[Soundmind]

I don't know how defence can explain this away. A blue bag with all these important items inside was found by police stuffed into a closet in an adjoining room. Who but murray placed it there and why, if not to hide it?

detective Martinez will take the stand and will tell the jury Murray told me where to find the bag and we found it excatly in the place he described. The defence is desperate really desperate. Alvares testified he thought they were packing to go to the hospital , the paramedic will tell the jurors there was no one left in the room but Murray and he was holding the bag collecting vials plus the bag did not show up at the hospital it simply disappeared until Murray told detectives where to find it , how could Chernoff explain that?

 

[Rhilo]

Death is often inevitable in cases of Cardiac Arrest - 95% of people pass away before reaching the hospital. The few that survive may be brain damaged beyond repair

 

[elusive moonwalker]

I believe Michael was already dead when Murray called Kai Chase/security/Prince.
But I def get ur frustration

yeah im sure he was. al lthe evidence points to that. and u have to think that way becasue otherwise ifs and buts will tear you apart

anymore info on this paul white and him being the father of p...

 

[claudiadoina]

I don't get it, what's up with fans blaming the witnesses. Only one person saw that Michael wasn't breathing before 911 was called and Murray asked him to pack drugs. He thought it was the purpose of taking them to the hospital.

Another thing, Murray has a cell phone too. Why wouldn't the people in the house think that Murray didn't call 911 himself if he had time to lean against the railings yelling at them. He didn't say to call 911, so they could just assume he did or the crisis could be handle without alerting everyone outside the house since they knew once they called 911, it would be a mob scene.

That's the problem.
Too much thinking, presuming, assuming, talking and too little acting/reacting upon.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

detective Martinez will take the stand and will tell the jury Murray told me where to find the bag and we found it excatly in the place he described. The defence is desperate really desperate. Alvares testified he thought they were packing to go to the hospital , the paramedic will tell the jurors there was no one left in the room but Murray and he was holding the bag collecting vials plus the bag did not show up at the hospital it simply disappeared until Murray told detectives where to find it , how could Chernoff explain that?

im sure the fecker will try lol

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Wendy, thank you for reminded me of Paul White, however, I can't see how he could say anything Murray did was okay. Especially with leaving the room and not calling for help right away.


I still also wonder how the defense can say on one hand that Michael died instantly, yet Murray supposedly felt a pulse. Are they going to say that Murray was so desperate that he imagine things?

I just can't see the defense no matter how hard I try.

I think the defence are going to try and say that you can't kill someone with 25mg of propofol. That is all murray is sayiing he did. Murray was unaware of the 8 lazapam (sp?) tablets mj swallowed during the first 10 hours of 25 june (defence are NOT saying mj swallowed these tablets in the 2mins murray was out of room but just during those hours he couldn't sleep and was up and about apparently popping pills), and was obviously unaware of what thedefence allege - the self-administraton of the extra propofol.

Yeah, i agree, murrays's actions with the medics and at the hospital look bad for him, saying he felt a pulse, saying he saw mj in cardiac arrest, no mention of propofol.

 

[Ramona122003]

That's the problem.
Too much thinking, presuming, assuming, talking and too little acting/reacting upon.

Why would the staff assume that Michael was dead or dying if the doctor, who anyone would assume knows more than them about the situation, didn't say anything? Why wouldn't they think that Murray called 911 and was simply trying to get security up. It sounds like you're punishing them for not immediately thinking the worst. I've seen this same BS when people got on the 911 caller for not being frantic enough on the phone.

They did everything they could to save Michael, using everything in their knowledge to help. You can't ask no more from any person.

 

[wendy2004]

I thought as much.

The problem with the addict charge is that Murray should had known since he was Michael's if he was or wasn't an addict. If he was, why was he given him drugs? I don't understand how he could justify that. I can't think of any doctor who would say that the best way to help an addict is to give them what they want or give them more drugs. He also really can't say he didn't known about Klien since he was Michael's doctors for over 20 years and even casually people knew about him since Michael was all over TMZ going to his office. Also, why would an addict go to doctor office every other day for their drug fix. That's what RX is for. There is also the fact that Murray told everyone, that can't deny this because Murray sent an email to the insurance company on the 25th, that Michael was fine and healthy. What reason did he have not to tell at least the people from AEG that Michael wasn't well and they should delay for the time being.


Wendy, thank you for reminded me of Paul White, however, I can't see how he could say anything Murray did was okay. Especially with leaving the room and not calling for help right away.


I still also wonder how the defense can say on one hand that Michael died instantly, yet Murray supposedly felt a pulse. Are they going to say that Murray was so desperate that he imagine things?

I just can't see the defense no matter how hard I try.

There's a lot of things Murray has said and the defense has alleged that cancel each other out. It's like they either aren't paying attention to their own lies or think the rest of the world is stupid and unable to tell the difference. Exactly...how can Murray insist he felt a pulse yet NOW they want to say MJ died instantly. Is Murray THAT incompetent a doctor that he can't tell when someone is deceased.

I don't get it, what's up with fans blaming the witnesses. Only one person saw that Michael wasn't breathing before 911 was called and Murray asked him to pack drugs. He thought it was the purpose of taking them to the hospital.

Another thing, Murray has a cell phone too. Why wouldn't the people in the house think that Murray didn't call 911 himself if he had time to lean against the railings yelling at them. He didn't say to call 911, so they could just assume he did or the crisis could be handle without alerting everyone outside the house since they knew once they called 911, it would be a mob scene.

Spot on. Why would anyone believe the doctor hadn't already called 911 himself? It should have been a given that he did. No excuse for why he hadn't.

This man has been delaying his punishment from the moment he found Michael dead. Even now, with this trial...he's delaying the inevitable.

detective Martinez will take the stand and will tell the jury Murray told me where to find the bag and we found it excatly in the place he described. The defence is desperate really desperate. Alvares testified he thought they were packing to go to the hospital , the paramedic will tell the jurors there was no one left in the room but Murray and he was holding the bag collecting vials plus the bag did not show up at the hospital it simply disappeared until Murray told detectives where to find it , how could Chernoff explain that?

That is major. I wonder if Murray gave an explanation during the interview as to why it was all tucked away in the closet.
:mello:

Btw...I like the way Judge Pastor is handling the case. Top notch. And Walgren may be the first Prosecutor I'd give hgh marks to...at least, so far. The pathology portion of the trial will be the ultimate test. Making science understandable for a jury is a challenge for anyone. So....fingers crossed.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

I t

I think the defence are going to try and say that you can't kill someone with 25mg of propofol. That is all murray is sayiing he did. Murray was unaware of the 8 lazapam (sp?) tablets mj swallowed during the first 10 hours of 25 june (defence are NOT saying mj swallowed these tablets in the 2mins murray was out of room but just during those hours he couldn't sleep and was up and about apparently popping pills), and was obviously unaware of the self-administraton of the extra propofol.

except there were no tablets found in him. seriously is there a way for the defence to get around this ?say the tablets already disapeared?

courts started

 

[Rhilo]

Calling 911 was Murray's responsibility, and his alone. He was responsible for Michael's life - he was the first person to see that Michael wasn't breathing, and he was a doctor to boot. He had to know the gravity of the situation above all other staff that was called on the scene. But then again, what can you expect from a man who has shirked all his duties as a medical professional?

 

[morsmordre]

Starting!

 

[thrillerchild]

Bob Johnson on stand

 

[elusive moonwalker]

bob johnson