Murray trial Day 23, November 3rd - discussion

Ingelief

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Hi here the thread for the 23 day, thursday 3 nov.

The closing statements. I think this is very importent and i dont want to miss a bit of it.
At least i hope these will in it:

1. propofol at home
2. no equipment
3. delay of 911 call
4. cover up by not telling about propofol to medics/ucla
5. Fingerprints
6. model of shafer of propofol drip
7. Michael died while cm was away!
8. Cm phonecalls
9. Lorezapam in the stomach, why
10. Michael did not do this to himself!
11. Many violetions, and deviations of care
12. MONEY he asked for 5 mil!


Can you think of some i forgot?

edit: Can someone make this sticky??
 
Re: Murray trial day 23, 3 nov

Apart from # 12, as there's nothing wrong in being paid 5mil, I think the prosecution should bring all those facts up.
 
Re: Murray trial day 23, 3 nov

Apart from # 12, as there's nothing wrong in being paid 5mil, I think the prosecution should bring all those facts up.

Yes there is something wrong with being paid $5mil when you lie about how many clinics you have, when you lie about the costs of shutting them down, and claim to have 5 practices when you only got 2.
 
Re: Murray trial day 23, 3 nov

agree twinkle!! Its importent is shows how bad his intentions were, and how bad the doc patient relation was, it was drivven by money not by an oath to do no harm!
 
Re: Murray trial day 23, 3 nov

http://juryargument.homestead.com/Preparation.html#anchor_28
In the courtroom, the lawyer who presents the best story usually rules. A story is a recounting of past events. ... to be an effective trial lawyer, you must learn to be a good storyteller. ... Trials are primarily narrative stories, that are presented by lawyers seeking to evoke in the jurors both a belief and the will to act on that belief. The trial story is the principal vehicle by which the courtroom lawyer seeks to influence the juror's mind. Other things, e.g., the lawyer's appearance, the witness' character, the judge's demeanor, the venue of the trial, etc., may sway the ultimate decision, but the presentation of case story is the key to success. The degree to which a juror's mind is influenced depends on the scope and content of the trial story and how it is told. A good trial story must be a shared experience between the storyteller and the listening jurors. If the trial story is not about the jurors, if it doesn't involve them and make them part of the moment, they won't listen. They'll tune it out and sit in the jury box making up their own stories, i.e., daydreaming. Gripping trial stories are about facts and inferences, but they are also about matters close to the heart. Notwithstanding what we may be taught in law school, lawyers don't win jury trials simply by cold analytical logic. The jurors minds must be won over by your facts but their hearts are captivated by the impact of emotion that flow from your story of the case.

I think the bolded part pretty much excludes chernoff and flan :D

More...
A closing argument, summation, or summing up is the concluding statement of each party's counsel (often called an attorney in the United States) reiterating the important arguments for the trier of fact, often the jury, in a court case. A closing argument occurs after the presentation of evidence. A closing argument may not contain any new information and may only use evidence introduced at trial. It is not customary to raise objections during closing arguments, except for egregious behavior. However, such objections, when made, can prove critical later in order to preserve appellate issues.

In the United States, the plaintiff is generally entitled to open the argument. The defendant usually goes second. The plaintiff or prosecution is usually then permitted a final rebuttal argument. In some jurisdictions, however, this form is condensed, and the prosecution or plaintiff goes second, after the defense, with no rebuttals. Either party may waive their opportunity to present a closing argument
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closing_argument

I won't be home until later tomorrow so will probably end up missing them all...drat it.
 
Re: Murray trial day 23, 3 nov

It's not relevant, imo, cause he's not charged with IM because of the money he was paid, but because his actions caused MJ' death.
 
Re: Murray trial day 23, 3 nov

Oh gosh, I'm already so nervous! :(
I hope the prosecution won't screw up now, however I have faith they will make a good closing statement as Walgren has been brilliant through the entire trial.

BTW: Yes, would be great if the thread can be made sticky!
 
Yes there is something wrong with being paid $5mil when you lie about how many clinics you have, when you lie about the costs of shutting them down, and claim to have 5 practices when you only got 2.
Ontop of gongaware saying the fee he was asking for was way ott compaired to other ppl he had delt with in his carrer. it was out of proportion.its relevent when u have character witnesses saying he wasnt gready
 
Re: Murray trial day 23, 3 nov

^^ Yes, it's to show that he was greedy and put himself first, not the patient.
 
Re: Murray trial day 23, 3 nov

http://juryargument.homestead.com/Preparation.html#anchor_28

I think the bolded part pretty much excludes chernoff and flan :D

More...
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closing_argument

I won't be home until later tomorrow so will probably end up missing them all...drat it.


curious how it is in la legal system, Which goes first for closing arguments, defense or pros. And if the pros can end with a final rebuttal argument. I hope it starts with defend, and end with pros because the jury has then the last words of pros in there head while deliberating
 
Re: Murray trial day 23, 3 nov

Prosecution first, defence last and no rebuttal.....at least that's how it works in Australia.

To add to the points already made and i think i'm repeating a few so sorry for that but my thoughts are:

1. Murray said he only heard jackson was seeing klein after mj's death, but someone from AEG (i think) said they told murray they thought he was seeing Klein in which case murray should have found out if jackson was on any medication from Klein. Shows he wasn't concerned about his patient.

2. The recording....why.

3. Withholding propofol information. Doesn't matter if nothing could be done. Why did he give CPR if nothing could be done, he should have given all information. Murray obviously thought jackson could be saved or he would not have refused to call TOD, so there is no excuse for not telling ER and medico's all the drugs given that morning.

4. Not documenting ANYTHING.

5. Claims to be trying to get jackson off propofol but had ordered gallons of the drug.

6. The propofol bottle in the iv bag with slit, suggesting he put Michael on a prop drip that morning and left the room.

7. 911.....why the hell didn't you call 911. Again, defense say it would make no difference because he was dead.....that is hindsight, at the time murray must have thought he could be saved. The people on the scene said they could have saved him.

8. Lack of necessary monitoring and life saving equipment.

9. The hidden stash.....and getting security to hide evidence.

10. He got nice referrals from people who's lives he has saved.....did he treat them in their bedrooms, did he anaesthetise them himself, did he have monitoring equipment, did he have a team of staff, was it his expertise or something he was not qualified to do....would they be happy to have the same duty of care from Murray that jackson got....i don't think so.

11. Highlight the tripe that Dr. White spewed forth and how obvious it was that he would say anything to help the defense, same for the addiction expert who forgot how to answer questions when cross examined. And they were paid, the prosecutions very reliable and professional expert (no contempt of court here) was not paid.
 
Re: Murray trial day 23, 3 nov

Some states allow a closing statement rebuttal by the prosecution

one issue that needs to be brought up is the flumez and that murray seemed to be oding mj on the stuff quite alot considering the
amount of vials found and the admitance he gave flumez on the 25th which goes against thr 4mg claim as pointed out by shaffer
 
Re: Murray trial day 23, 3 nov

Can anyone tell me what time court will start today, really don't want to miss the closing statements. Thank you.
 
Re: Murray trial day 23, 3 nov

already the closing statement?? im pissed ive missed so much of the trial (one week)... ive been terribly sick for a week.. but im Okay now so im gonna watch now
 
Michael Jackson doctor’s trial entering final stages as closing arguments begin Thursday in LA


LOS ANGELES — Closing arguments are set to begin Thursday as the involuntary manslaughter trial against Michael Jackson’s doctor heads into its final stages before jury deliberations.
<article>Before listening to arguments by prosecutors and defense attorneys, Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor will give jurors detailed instructions on how they should interpret evidence in the case and what they can and cannot consider.</article><article></article>
<article>There has been no time limit announced for how long each side will argue its position, although Pastor cautioned attorneys on Tuesday to keep their final speeches focused.
Deputy District Attorney David Walgren will have the first and last word during arguments as he tries to convince the jury of seven men and five women that Dr. Conrad Murray should be convicted of involuntary manslaughter.

Walgren has cast Murray as an inept, reckless physician who was distracted on the morning of Jackson&#8217;s June 2009 death after giving the singer a powerful dose of the anesthetic propofol as a sleep aid.
Prosecutors are operating on the theory that while Murray was engaged in lawful practices during his treatment of Jackson, he acted in a criminally negligent way by using propofol as an insomnia treatment without the proper staff or medical equipment, and that he botched resuscitation efforts and lied to other medical personnel about his actions.
The majority of the witnesses and evidence was presented by prosecutors, who must convince the jury unanimously and beyond a reasonable doubt in order to convict Murray.
Lead defense attorney Ed Chernoff is likely to argue that Jackson was responsible for his own death and took a fatal dose of propofol when Murray left his bedroom on June 25, 2009. Chernoff will also likely rely on the statements of five character witnesses, mostly former patients, to try to convince jurors that he should not be held responsible for Jackson&#8217;s death.
After Walgren&#8217;s final arguments, Pastor will offer some additional instructions and the jury&#8217;s deliberations will begin.
The panel has listened attentively throughout the six-week trial, which featured 49 witnesses and some complex medical testimony. They also heard several audio recordings, including one of Jackson himself in which his speech was slow and slurred, as well as Murray&#8217;s lengthy interview with police detectives.
It is unclear if any of those items will get a reprise during closing arguments, but Walgren told Pastor he is planning a slideshow presentation.
Murray, 58, has been stoic through most of the proceedings. He cried when one of his friends, Ruby Mosley, talked about the cardiologist founding a clinic in a poor Houston neighborhood in honor of his father.
The jury did not hear directly from Murray, who opted not to testify in his own defense.
The doctor faces up to four years behind bars and the loss of his medical license if he&#8217;s convicted.
</article>
I'm glad to read that the prosecution has the first and last words.
 
In criminal trials, the prosecution gives its summation, followed by that of the defense. In addition, the plaintiff's counsel or the prosecutor is allowed time for a rebuttal argument. The reason for this additional time is that the Burden of Proof is on the plaintiff or prosecution; thus, the plaintiff's attorney or the prosecutor is allowed to reply to the defense's closing argument. Attorneys see the rebuttal as a useful weapon, as it is the last word to be heard from counsel in a case
.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Closing+Argument

I don't know if the judge has set a time limit for each statement which I understand sometimes happens. But am so glad that the prosecution can have the last word.

And since the judge has allowed that even if self admin. is believed to have happened, murray can still be found guilty, it seems as if the defense may have wasted all that money on white!
 
If there's going to be a presentation, I think they might show photos of Michael again...
 
Closing arguments set in trial of Michael Jackson's doctor
By Alan Duke, CNN
November 3, 2011 -- Updated 0731 GMT (1531 HKT)


'Media circus' around Murray trial
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Jurors have two theories of guilt to consider for Dr. Conrad Murray
Prosecutors say Murray's use of propofol for Jackson's insomnia was criminally negligent
The defense contends Jackson gave himself the fatal overdose

Los Angeles (CNN) -- Jurors in the involuntary manslaughter trial of Michael Jackson's doctor will hear closing arguments from the prosecution and defense Thursday, with deliberations on Dr. Conrad Murray's fate expected to begin late Thursday or Friday.
It follows 22 days of testimony from several of Murray's girlfriends and patients, Jackson employees, paramedics and emergency room doctors, investigators and medical experts.
Jackson's mother will sit on one side of the courtroom, while Murray's mother is likely to be seated on the other end Thursday as the seven men and five women on the jury listen to each side sum up their case.
Jackson was preparing for a series of 50 shows in London, part of a career comeback, when he died on June 25, 2009.
Conrad Murray opts not to testify Prosecution recalls its star witness Fans surround Murray's defense expert
Murray told detectives in an interview two days after Jackson's death that he had used the surgical anesthetic propofol to help Jackson sleep nearly every night for the previous two months, with the exception of his last three nights.
He was using the sedatives lorazepam and Midazolam in an effort to wean Jackson off of propofol the morning he died, Murray said. When those drugs weren't working after almost 10 hours of trying, he gave him a single injection of propofol, which did put Jackson to sleep, he said.
Jackson's death was caused by "acute propofol intoxication" in combination with two sedatives, the Los Angeles County coroner ruled.
The prosecution contends Dr. Murray's use of propofol to treat Jackson's insomnia was so reckless it was criminally negligent and caused the singer's death.
Murray failed to perform the legal obligation as a doctor because his treatment egregiously and extremely deviated from the required standard of medical care, the prosecution alleges.
The defense contends that Jackson, not Murray, administered the fatal doses of propofol and sedatives the coroner ruled killed the pop icon. He was so desperate for sleep, and afraid his comeback concerts would be canceled without it, that he injected himself while Murray was not watching, the defense argues.
Prosecutors say it makes no difference how the propofol got into Jackson's blood since it was Murray who brought the drugs into the bedroom and left him alone long enough to die.
Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor will start Thursday's court session by instructing the jury on the law guiding the decisions they must make.
The jury must unanimously agree on one of two theories in order to convict Murray on the single count of involuntary manslaughter.
The first theory is that Murray's administration of propofol to Jackson was criminally negligent and it caused Jackson's death.
Although it was legal, as a licensed doctor, for Murray to administer propofol to Jackson, they could find he was reckless in the way he did it, which created a high risk of death.
Criminal negligence requires more than just ordinary carelessness, inattention, or mistakes in judgment, the judge will tell jurors. A reasonable person would have to have known that the action would create such a risk of death.
Prosecutors have laid out a list of acts they allege were negligent, including not having other medical staff present when propofol was used, a lack of monitoring equipment, ineffective resuscitative care when Jackson stopped breathing and a delay in calling for an ambulance.
Using propofol, which is intended to sedate surgical patients, for sleep was another egregious deviation, they argue.
The second theory that jurors could accept is that Murray, who assumed a legal obligation to care for Jackson when he became his physician, failed to perform this legal duty by deviating from standards of care required of a doctor, including, when he left him alone and unmonitored after administering propofol.
The judge asked lawyers to finish their closing arguments by the end of Thursday, so the jury could begin deliberations.
Murray, if convicted, faces up to four years in prison and the loss of his medical license.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/03/justice/california-conrad-murray-trial/index.html
 
If there's going to be a presentation, I think they might show photos of Michael again...

Yes I worried about that too BUT at least they can't show any new photo's as new material is not allowed in closing statements. I cna see why the pictures were used - to make the jury see how Murray's actions had caused Michael to be that way compared to just hours earlier at rehearsal, it makes them think so that's good I suppose, just hard for us :(
 
parts from NBC Los angeles article - http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/l...Final-Arguments-in-Murray-Case-133131563.html. very interesting

Lead prosecutor David Walgren is noted for his elaborate use of audio visuals.

"I expect a light and sound show from the prosecution," said Steve Levine, an attorney who has been following the trial as an analyst for NBCLA.


so seems like his closing will be effective

"The defense is going to stick to the script," said Steve Levine. At the same time, he and other analysts note the very real possibility that even if jurors conclude Jackson did give himself the fatal dose, Murray could still be convicted.

That could occur because of the nature of the involuntary manslaughter charge. If jurors find that Murray was grossly negligent in his care of Jackson, and that this was, if not the direct cause, a "significant factor" in Jackson'sdeath.

There was much back and forth as the opposing attorneys went over the language of the instructions Judge Pastor will read the jurors after final arguments. At the prosecution's urging, and over defense opposition, jurors will be told Murray is still criminally liable if Murray "should have foreseen the possibility of harm that could result from his act."


this is good.


What this means is that in his closing argument Thursday, lead prosecutor David Walgren will present jurors two alternatives, two paths to conviction.

Walgren will tell jurors the evidence shows the fatal dose did come from Murray, not Jackson. Walgren will recount the highlights of the five days of testimony by the prosecution's expert anesthesiologist, Steven Shafer, MD, who set up an IV demonstration right in the courtroom.

Walgren will note that Shafer created a computer program to predict how different doses produce different levels of propofol in the blood over time. And he will remind jurors that Shafer did additional research to refute the defense theory that Jackson self-ingested.

The prosecution will attack the credibility of the defense's expert, by reminding jurors that Paul White, MD, wrote last March of the possibility that Jackson died of swallowing propofol, a theory the defense abandoned before trial. But Walgren still brought it up on examination to discredit White.

Walgren will also deal with White's attempt to refute Shafer's continuous IV drip conclusion. White said research shows the amount of propofol found in Jackson's urine was not consistent with a drip. During theprosecution's rebuttal, Shafer returned to testify that the latest research shows it is consistent, that White was relying on 23 year old research that is now outdated.

But more than that, Walgren will also focus on the evidence and expert conclusions that Murray was grossly negligent in a multitude of ways, including the administering of propofol in a home setting, failure to keep records ordoses, lack of monitoring and emergency response equipment, leaving Jackson alone, and then, after discovering Jacksonin arrest, delaying calling 911 some twenty minutes, andfailing to tell the responding paramedics and ER doctors about the propofol.

"I exepct Walgren just to hammer home all the things Dr.Murray didn't do that day, including all the lies," Levine said.


ooohhh this is gonna be good.


How the defense closing argument will deal with the gross negligence allegations is not at all clear. At trial, the defense never directly confronted them. The closest it came was testimony from their expert White that in some situations, "It's not always possible or commom" to live up to the formal expectations of standard of care.

What the defense can do is emphasize the testimony of former Murray patients.

"They had those great character witnesses that put a face on him," said Levine. Even a sixth patient called by the prosecution acknowledged Murray "saved my life" and was an attentive and caring doctor until he left his Las Vegas clinic to begin working for Michael Jackson fulltime.

Lead defense attorney Ed Chernoff will remind jurors that in his opening statement, he promised they would like Ruby Mosley, an 82 year old Murray patient from Houston. She indeed captivated the courtroom with her endearing and downhome style.

Murray's tears were apparent to jurors as Mosley described the medical clinic Murray set up in his father's memory in a Houston neighborhood of predominately low-income seniors.

The clear message: that Murray is a caring doctor, not in it just for the money.


if that's all , then they don't seem to have much chance imo
 
If they show a photo, it will probably be the same one shown during the opening statment. I see no reason for the autopsy photo to be shown again.

Does court start at the usual time today?
 
Dont think i will get home in time to watch all of it. Well ill turn to youtube again i guess.
Good luck to the prosecution and to all the fans. Michaels deserves justice
 
Important imo that walgren attacks the greed aspect and the info from early on about murray lieing about the amount of clinics he had as a reason for wanting five mill. i had forgotten about that as we heard about it early on. the jurrors need to be reminded
 
Though it's looking good for the prosecution and I'm sure Walgren will give a brilliant closing, I don't know why I'm still feeling so apprehensive.
 
let's hope and pray that Walgren delivers a great closing statement and addresses every single issue that's been brought up including, murray's greed, flumazenil, lack of fingerprints, murray's past actions prior to june 25, murray lying to everyone involved on june 25, the delay in calling 911, the defense changing their strategy for the 1000th time, murray abandoning michael for 2mins and/or longer than 40 mins. Murray being on the phone, Murray leaving his patients to work for Michael (shows his greed), lack of demorol in mj's body, murray telling ortega off, white lying, white making stuff up as he goes along, white not having done any research, white 's first theory about oral consumption of propofol etc etc. I hope he brings up EVERYTHING.

Anyways I'll be back in around an hour as I have to run errands now
 
mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
Finally, 5.) Judge gives jury instructions on how to deliberate. Then, the waiting begins...
26 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
2.) DDA Walgren lays out his initial arguments. 3.) Ed Chernoff argues the defense case. 4.) Walgren gets final chance to argue ...
1 minute ago

mccartneyAP Anthony McCartney
At least 5 things have to happen before Conrad Murray jury gets the case. 1.) Judge gives instructions about evidence, etc. ...
2 minutes ago
 
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