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Thread: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality and other prefered concerts over Wembley go here

   
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    Default Wembley DVD Critique /Quality and other prefered concerts over Wembley go here

    This thread is for members who wish to critique the DVD and discuss the quality and technical aspects of the Wembley DVD. Pro or Con . Also to Discuss what other concerts you prefer over this release and any other critique about the DVD. Please try to keep all discussions of this nature in here so as not to derail threads created for other topical discussions of BAD25.

    Any post stating quality shouldn't be critiqued or discussed will be deleted _That is the purpose of this thread

    We also have Wembley DVD thread for members who just want to discuss and show appreciation to MJ his Wembley concert and his perfomances http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/th...rformance-ONLY
    Michael Jackson: Live at Wembley July 16, 1988 - VHS vs. restored DVD

    http://youtu.be/NeZVW0D4TyI EPConcerts

    Enjoy your discussion

    Prior threads for your reference
    [Video] Another Part of Me performance from Wembley DVD
    A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality [Discussion]

    FROM: JOHN BRANCA and JOHN McCLAIN
    DATE: MAY 31, 2012
    RE: BAD 25 RELEASE


    It is great to see the overwhelming support and excitement in the fan community for the upcoming BAD 25 release. A few questions have arisen regarding the Wembley concert DVD. Although the press release wasn’t the place for background details, here is more information:

    • We know that Nocturne captured on Umatic tapes the footage projected onto the JumboTrons at the various concerts including Wembley. These tapes were turned over to Michael’s crew and we have confirmed with Patrick Kelly (who headed Michael’s film crew for the European tour) that everything from Europe was sent to LA to be put in Michael’s storage facilities. The same procedures were followed for the US shows.

    • Unfortunately, record-keeping in the storage facilities was sporadic, at best, so we do not know what happened to a tape once it was sent for storage. In most cases, once a tape was pulled from the box it arrived in, it was not put back in the original box and where it wound up doesn’t always make sense. As a result, 25 years later not all of the Umatic tapes from the various shows can be located, notwithstanding that we have conducted an extensive survey of all of the storage facilities. So while we believe that the Umatic tape for Wembley was initially sent for storage, we have not been able to locate it. And with regard to the Umatic footage of other concerts, the audio is extremely problematic and therefore these concerts are unusable.

    • We know that VHS copies of the Umatics were made when Michael wanted to view a particular concert, but because of the lack of record-keeping, we also didn’t know which concerts existed on VHS. We ultimately did find Michael’s personal VHS viewing copy of the Wembley show attended by Princess Diana and Prince Charles, but not the Umatic. Even finding this VHS felt like a miracle to us!

    • So while we continued the search for the Wembley Umatic master, we also researched the audio recordings that existed from all of the concerts including Wembley. Fortunately, the Wembley audio recordings were made using a sound truck, and appear to be the only multi-track recordings from the tour. The other audio/visual recordings that exist, whether Umatic or VHS, are “front of house” mixes, and therefore there are no separate audio recordings that can be used to create a high quality listening experience. It is for this reason that the Wembley audio is the only one suitable to create a live album.

    • If we were going to include a live concert DVD in the BAD 25 release package, we had only one choice, Wembley. And there were only two options for visual – the Umatics for a different show or the VHS for Wembley. It would certainly be less expensive for the Estate to be able to create a DVD from a Umatic tape than to spend the time and money to painstakingly restore/enhance the VHS footage, but then we would not be delivering a truly authentic experience and we truly believe that watching this concert with the high quality audio will create a magical experience for all the fans as it has for us. We ultimately chose a lab that has developed its own proprietary technology for doing this kind of work (including restoration for NASA of VHS footage) in order to make the visual experience the best it can be under the circumstances.


    We also could have chosen to release the Japanese concert from the first leg of the tour as there is a master of that show; but that concert was essentially a reincarnation of the Victory Tour with only two songs – “Bad” and “I Just Can’t Stop Loving You” – added at the end. It isn’t what we believe the fans would want.


    We could have elected not to release a DVD as part of the BAD 25 celebration (and hold out hope that someday we might find the Umatic of the Wembley concert) or we could share with the fans the chance to relive that magical night with pristine audio. We made the decision to go with the latter and provide the fans with the most authentic viewing experience. We believe that the fans will agree it was the right choice when the package is released in September.
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    Default Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

    Of course I prefer various other concerts over Wembley, quality wise (Yokohama 1987), but given the standards, the quality is mind-boggling good. I commend and solute the Estate for doing this and I'm extremely excited for this release.

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    Default Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

    im gonna say im thrilled with what i have seen. I was really worrying after the first ITV spot teaser that the quality would be near awful but i was pleasantly surprised. The final quality will be available to see on mon which should be very slightly better then the amazon clip so im looking forward to that. Well done estate, and thank you :-) :-)

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    Default Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

    The main problem other than the sharpness is the colour balance. There is a green and yellow tint that has plagued many of MJ's TV-broadcast concerts. Yokohama was notorious for this, as well as more recent HWT concerts like Copenhagen and Gothenburg.

    I know many people have struggled with the formula required for enhancing. I personally use a "quick fix" for all of these this which removes the tint and adds a little more purple and red.

    Definitely LA footage is better quality, but when you compare this Wembley VHS to Wembley footage in Brace Yourself, you will notice that the Brace Yourself footage is "cleaner" but "softer". The Wembley VHS appears to have been sharpened using unsharp mask or something giving it thick outlines, I think it is almost oversharpened.

    Watch a masterpiece like BBC's Planet Earth and realize sharpness isn't everything. Much of the footage in this documentary was upscaled from 720p or another sub-par form of 1080i (DVCProHD, 1280x1080) to 1080i, so you will notice considerable softness in some parts, but everyone still says the quality is amazing.

    In my opinion I would consider the quality of this to be 7.0/10 and Yokohama is a 8.0 (Yokohama's quality is exaggerated it too suffers from green/yellow tint and thick outlines). 9/10 would be the Grammys. Tokyo 87 resembles a more compressed version this Wembley DVD while Brisbane is a softer "cleaner" video but overall less details than Wembley or Tokyo. Don't get me started with Osaka.
    Last edited by Frankyboy5; 09-09-2012 at 04:48 AM.
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    Default Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

    I really just think they did a poor job and this isn't quality they should be putting on DVD. I really wish they had the 35 MM. They could of edited and made new angles and even 16:9 and Blu Ray.

    I hate so many angles of the concert, what really got me mad was the end of APOM and the close up right on his face! Ugh!
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    Default Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankyboy5 View Post
    In my opinion I would consider the quality of this to be 7.0/10 and Yokohama is a 8.0 (Yokohama's quality is exaggerated it too suffers from green/yellow tint and thick outlines). 9/10 would be the Grammys. Tokyo 87 resembles a more compressed version this Wembley DVD while Brisbane is a softer "cleaner" video but overall less details than Wembley or Tokyo. Don't get me started with Osaka.
    you consider yokohama quality to e better then wembley!?

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    Default Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

    Quote Originally Posted by rsggamer123 View Post
    you consider yokohama quality to e better then wembley!?
    Well it has more detail and sharpness overall.
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    Default Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

    It would be awesome if the estate gave us a list of what they have that was shot on film well of Michael's tours of course so we wouldn't have to worry about video quality

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    Default Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

    Quote Originally Posted by rsggamer123 View Post
    you consider yokohama quality to e better then wembley!?
    Gosh, it's pretty obvious that Yokohama is in much better quality than Wembley. They've got masters of this show so considering that they put this one under process of restoration as well, the quality will be amazing

    I'd give Wembley like 5.5/10 (as for what I saw till now), Yokohama 7/10 (available rips). To get a quite good comparison, as someone ealse mentioned earlier, Grammys would be like 8.5-9/10

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    Default Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

    Quote Originally Posted by mjj19582009 View Post
    It would be awesome if the estate gave us a list of what they have that was shot on film well of Michael's tours of course so we wouldn't have to worry about video quality
    And that would be the best idea To let the fans see, what the estate really has. Is it really that much?

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    Default Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

    I think Wembley looks as good as Yokohama.

    And the set-list, energy, atmosphere - everything - is just MUCH better in the Wembley show!
    https://www.youtube.com/user/Ahess/videos - me dancing MJ - many years ago.

    I would be really glad if you rated or/and commented the videos. Thanks

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    Default Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

    I was happy enough with what I saw.

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    Default Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

    Edit: YES, I know Amazon APOM clip is compressed. Since that's all we have for now, I judge from that. Also compression is irrelevant in these issues I am pointing out here. I'm not talking about pixels etc. These issues below sure are gonna be in DVD too.

    So, first issue I noticed are too fat outlines aka halos. I think they aren't that hard to get rid of if you're advanced (like that pro lab supposedly is).
    Here's my quick attempt on that. I ate too much details with whites. Please excuse that, as this is only technique I know to fix halos somehow. Mjmax has his own way where he creates masks or something with luma or chroma, I'm not sure. Also you might think why outlines are so important? Why so big deal? Well, maybe you can't notice from a screen, but when you watch it in motion, it will make you think it is better quality. It will give such effect.
    Minus with my example below is that perhaps to you it looks blurrier and more unnatural, but hey, that's just me. If pros reduced outlines without touching different things (like I did) it would look way way better. That would be great effect.




    Mjmax' attempt on Yokohama

    Quote Originally Posted by mjmax View Post
    Some months ago mjjlatvia asked me for a way to remove the halos - you know these black areas around the edges - so I wrote a script to detect and fix them. It was just a try and I'll let him work on this source..

    Btw, Wembley also have a lot of halos... they were obvsiously present on the VHS, but they got stronger with the sharpening. They could surely have dealt with them more properly.




    Yuichi's version



    Shot at 2012-09-07

    halos detection



    Shot at 2012-09-07

    halos removal


    Shot at 2012-09-07

    @dam2040: I think that professionals are much more competent than us to restore videos... and I would love that they used their skills to do a great job on this concert.. but the facts are here: I can see obvious mistakes in the way the video was processed. And I could say the same about the Vision's boxset. That makes me think the skills are not the top condition to do a good job.. the passion we put in work is probably more important.

    Next stop is the colors. Overall they're fine, however in some places I don't like them. Of course, this post is only for those who like to analyse things and are picky about videos.
    For example, this Thriller shot. I think MJ's face is too yellow. Of course this also comes down to individual. In case you like yellow MJ, okay... :ph34r:




    Now another thing which is pretty annoying is the weird look of fast motion close-up parts and zooming in and out in closeups. No idea how to fix this. Probably that isn't possible. I'm sure it was caused by their denoise filters.



    Created something in that fashion for example.




    Now another thing, but I am not sure how was VHS' raw condition. so MAYBE I'm wrong. I think whites were blown up bit too much causing a bit loss of detail.


    About well, the "the best quality 24 years old VHS I ever saw" thing. Old VHS' CAN be better than this. If yours are worse that means only one thing - you dropped it in some hole to collect dust etc, played 50 times a day in some crappy 2-head VHS player, or it was 100th copy of a copy from an inferior source. This VHS which supposedly is MJ's personal must have been taken directly from a master copy back in the 88. Prolly it wasn't kept with very good care that's why it is degraded A LOT by nowadays. If you take a really good care of VHS, it can look rather excellent.
    Queen Live in Budapest 1986 - VHS released on 16 February 1987.




    Also, yes, Yokohama does look better overall. Perhaps you may think no, but if you tweak few things like a little bit of denoise and contrast adjust you can see for yourself. This is just my crappy take on it. I'm sure Mjmax could do way better than me.






    Ultimately, I would give Wembley 5-6/10 in comparison to the true DVD quality aka what it should be, for example Bucharest DVD, Grammy Awards 1988, Bad LA 89 snippets from DVD "The One", Man In The Mirror from Moonwalker DVD.
    (of course you will say again that considering the VHS source issue and all etc this is great quality, but let's forget that for a second and compare to the true DVD quality)


    Hmm, I think this was all I was going to say.. I'll update if I can think of something more lol

    And of course I am just as excited as everyone else, can't wait for the DVD
    Last edited by Rudolf; 09-09-2012 at 10:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

    I would just add that some parts are oversaturated... Just like this screen of Thriller I think it's the best clarification on quality since now. Great job Rudolf

    All this lead us to think that the filters that they used to retore this tape, were too strong... Like the denoising filter. A lot of detalis were lost. To see this best, as MJJLatvia pointed out, just look on close ups. Look how Michael's face has cartoonish facture. Though, not at each frame we can notice that. Some shots looks pretty good

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    Default Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

    I'm not much of an expert in video editing. But what I can do is judge with my eyes.

    What I can say is that I don't think Wembley is perfect, but it is passable and I dare say I find it acceptable. I'm willing to give the estate the benefit of the doubt in saying that they did what they could with what they have. The problem is, we don't know what they have. They know that Wembley was highly regarded and wanted, and they provided it the best that they can...from what I can tell.

    When people say they have a specific preference...it's up in the air for me. I would have been fine with LA or Wembley...but Wembley is what I have wanted more so so I'm happy with it. I know some rather Yokohoma based off of quality but I just feel that more would have been furious over this...because it's already available. I know that for me personally, the set-list alone makes me want to have Wembley (or LA for that matter).
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