View Poll Results: Final verdict

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  • AEG liable

    80 48.19%
  • AEG not liable

    86 51.81%
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Thread: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

   
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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tygger View Post
    Krikzil, Gerryevans, there is no testimony or evidence that stated Michael knew these doctors were unethical. There is testimony that stated Michael was told it was dangerous and he replied it was safe if he was monitored. There is also testimony that stated Michael trusted these doctors.

    Gerryevans, I simply disagree. I agree with Jamba in that the doctor was not Michael's primary choice to administer propofol; the doctor was who he was left with.
    Why was Murray the doctor he was left with if it was not an unethical treatment?
    MJ wasn't an idiot. He didn't need anyone to explicit say to him, if a doctor gives you propofol for sleep, he's an unethical doctor. They explicitly did tell him of its dangers, explicitly should not be used as a sleep remedy, and the ethical doctors refused to give it to him for those reasons.

    And if MJ was told of its dangers, knew it was not a sleep remedy, and you feel he still didn't realize it was an unethical treatment for the setting and purposes he wanted it for, why should his promoters be held liable when they knew absolutely nothing about it?
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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tygger View Post
    Serendipity, if the Jacksons received restitution, would it then somehow be acceptable to support the doctor if he chose to profit from his fatal crime? Whether they sought restitution or rejected it, I am not going to support that doctor! Their choice has nothing to do with my personal choice. Everyone is free to make their own choices. I simply choose NO whenever, whatever, wherever the man that killed Michael is concerned.
    Tygger, that wasn't my question. I asked you aren't you baffled by the family's choice to go after more money instead of having the actual opportunity to prevent MJ's killer from profiting from his death? It's a simple question. I'm not asking for your choice, I'm asking how do you feel about the family's choice, since it's strange to me how you're so baffled by the fans, but the family's choice to just let him freely profit so they can get bigger money, doesn't seem to baffle you at all.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Passy001, you are not going to be successful here. Again: if it was in my post, you would have simply re-quoted it but, you cannot. Replying to your posts is only fueling your responses so I will simply wait for your next rude reply in lieu of the re-quote.

    Gerryevans, there is no testimony or evidence stating Michael knew any doctor was unethical. If your intuition, common sense, and life experiences lead you to believe Michael knew any doctor was unethical that is fine however, mine does not. To your point, if Michael did believe the doctor was unethical, it does not absolve AEG and it portrays Michael as deceptive and maybe even fraudulent.

    AEG did not vet the doctor and they did not need to know about any treatment the doctor used as it was privileged information. Phillips and Gongaware testified they did not recall if the doctor was there to treat Michael’s sleep issues. That is not a yes or no; it is neutral. AEG only needed to know that the doctor was conflicted and that they could control that conflicted doctor to get Michael to rehearsal (and retrieve medical records for insurance purposes) and I believe they did.

    Serendipity, I answered your question. The Jacksons’ choice to reject restitution does not affect my choice to NOT support the doctor if he chooses to profit from his fatal crime. Whether any possible monies went to the Jacksons through restitution or directly to the doctor, there is no difference for me as I will NOT support him.

    I also said previously that I believe Katherine wanted to expose AEG as a third party in her son’s passing. She was half way there as the plaintiffs did prove AEG hired the doctor. Some still focused on the billions that the plaintiffs had NO guarantee they would receive even WITH a successful verdict.

    Maybe you can respond to that; why was case pursued if no monies were guaranteed?

    They always leave it to Michaels fans to do the dirty old leg work. I see your point, some fans can't have it all ways.
    Last Tear, I was clear I do believe some fans are hoping the doctor will attempt to profit from his fatal crime and I have read such posts. Your response seems to twist that a bit. I am baffled by your comment I re-quoted above. Fans made Michael a success and he was always grateful for that. The Jackson family could not solely support Michael to the level of success he achieved. The Jackson family will most likely not purchase anything the doctor would possibly peddle to profit from his fatal crime.

    If the Jacksons will not support the doctor, who remains to support the doctor? It will not solely be the general public who is not particularly concerned. Some fans will play a part as they have.

    Forgive me: I personally would not trust anyone who would tell another that Michael loved his fans more than his own family but, I understand if you do. Too much of an agenda there for me.
    Last edited by Tygger; 20-10-2013 at 06:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    something to do with being a family supporter who will down play and defend their antics 24/7 no matter what it does to mj and his kids.. u are all going round in circles. its ruining this intresting thread imo. dont waste your time
    Quote Originally Posted by serendipity View Post
    Tygger, that wasn't my question. I asked you aren't you baffled by the family's choice to go after more money instead of having the actual opportunity to prevent MJ's killer from profiting from his death? It's a simple question. I'm not asking for your choice, I'm asking how do you feel about the family's choice, since it's strange to me how you're so baffled by the fans, but the family's choice to just let him freely profit so they can get bigger money, doesn't seem to baffle you at all.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    @Tygger, I have not seen any posts that remotely appear to be fans wishing Murray would profit. There was more to my response than the part you posted, which in fact was in response to a post by Bubs. The only fans that I could see that could possibly be accepting of Murray profiting would be those who support the Jacksons in NOT accepting restitution.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Elusive Moonwalker, you are correct. Let us return to the countless posts about the so-called "greedy Jacksons" and assigning them random blame among other sports.

    Interesting how those activities are never considered distracting and are always relevant to any and all discussions for some.

    Last Tear, you are incorrect. I have no issue with the family rejecting restitution AND I will not support the doctor's possible profit from his fatal crime. Several posters who were against the Jacksons' rejection of restitution have already blamed the Jacksons for the doctor's possible profit from his fatal crime via a predicted book and other similar activities. Those posts are still in this subforum for your review.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tygger View Post
    Gerryevans, I simply disagree. I agree with Jamba in that the doctor was not Michael's primary choice to administer propofol; the doctor was who he was left with.
    Quote Originally Posted by gerryevans View Post
    Why was Murray the doctor he was left with if it was not an unethical treatment?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tygger View Post
    Gerryevans, there is no testimony or evidence stating Michael knew any doctor was unethical. If your intuition, common sense, and life experiences lead you to believe Michael knew any doctor was unethical that is fine however, mine does not.

    AEG did not vet the doctor and they did not need to know about any treatment the doctor used as it was privileged information. Phillips and Gongaware testified they did not recall if the doctor was there to treat Michael’s sleep issues. That is not a yes or no; it is neutral. AEG only needed to know that the doctor was conflicted and that they could control that conflicted doctor to get Michael to rehearsal (and retrieve medical records for insurance purposes) and I believe they did.
    Tygger, that’s a dodge on the Murray question. And I’ve got a feeling not only have our life experiences been different, but one of us has had more extensive experiences. Don’t know if that’s good or bad. But perhaps it explains why I don’t believe Dr. Conrad Murray was conflicted AT ALL. He got lucky with MJ's interest in him and took full advantage of the situation. He was an opportunist who saw MJ's desperation and calculated how to best serve his interests. He stockpiled proprofol, wouldn’t administer it until he was assured he was getting a deal, and then proceeded to systematically debilitate MJ and make him dependent on him. I don't think he debilitated him purposely, but his actions on June 25th showed he definitely didn't give a d@mn about him. He manipulated both sides of the TII equation. AEG and no one else could have possibly known he was the lowlife he is, even MJ. A bad credit rating certainly wouldn’t have revealed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by elusive moonwalker View Post
    u are all going round in circles. its ruining this intresting thread imo. dont waste your time
    Elusive, I agree about going around in circles. It is a merry go around. But sometimes, just when you’re about to hop off, you see a comment that has you hang on for a little longer.

    Tygger, IMO has been one of the reasons the thread has been interesting. No one has hung onto the merry go around more steadfastly with opposing opinion and rationale, and even though that rationale can have me head scratching at times, I think the perspective has been helpful, especially considering nearly half of this community who voted in our poll share Tygger’s opinion about AEG’s liability, and that has not been reflected in the five months of discussion here of the case.
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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    No one here supports Murray but him doing whatever and saying whatever against Michael is wrong. It has nothing to do with AEG or the Jacksons. How many times do people get away with this and we wish there were laws or something to stop people from doing that? Restitution against Murray would have helped.

    I don't want to hear anything from him. I don't want read he did this interview and said he loved Michael. I don't want to see pictures of him laughing when Michael is buried at Forest Lawn. I don't want to hear him say he is writing a book. We don't have to pay attention to anything he does but the fact that he will have the opportunity to basically trash Michael who is the VICTIM here is disgusting. Whether you like the Jacksons or not the fact is that they had the opportunity to do that for Michael. To make sure he doesn't profit of killing him. He killed Michael and it feels like it is no big deal. I guess I am in the minority here but it feels so wrong to me.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    How can you have no issue with the family rejecting restitution, but have an issue with the fans? I can't take seriously your "I don't want Murray to profit" claims when you have no issue with the family letting him freely to profit. To me there's no logic in that.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryevans View Post
    Tygger, that’s a dodge on the Murray question. And I’ve got a feeling not only have our life experiences been different, but one of us has had more extensive experiences. Don’t know if that’s good or bad. But perhaps it explains why I don’t believe Dr. Conrad Murray was conflicted AT ALL. He got lucky with MJ's interest in him and took full advantage of the situation. He was an opportunist who saw MJ's desperation and calculated how to best serve his interests. He stockpiled proprofol, wouldn’t administer it until he was assured he was getting a deal, and then proceeded to systematically debilitate MJ and make him dependent on him. I don't think he debilitated him purposely, but his actions on June 25th showed he definitely didn't give a d@mn about him. He manipulated both sides of the TII equation. AEG and no one else could have possibly known he was the lowlife he is, even MJ. A bad credit rating certainly wouldn’t have revealed it.



    Elusive, I agree about going around in circles. It is a merry go around. But sometimes, just when you’re about to hop off, you see a comment that has you hang on for a little longer.

    Tygger, IMO has been one of the reasons the thread has been interesting. No one has hung onto the merry go around more steadfastly with opposing opinion and rationale, and even though that rationale can have me head scratching at times, I think the perspective has been helpful, especially considering nearly half of this community who voted in our poll share Tygger’s opinion about AEG’s liability, and that has not been reflected in the five months of discussion here of the case.
    Well, I agree Tygger has been 'steadfast' but what is frustrating is that you never get anywhere--just a repeat of what was said before--so IDK how 'interesting' that is, but I agree that it is a good thing that someone with an alternate viewpoint has joined the thread from start to finish. There have been others but I think they ended up insulting the other posters and the entire forum, so they got banned. I appreciate that Tygger has stayed away from that approach. What ever happened to Bouee btw???

    Seems to me that the anti-AEG faction of the MJ fans can't handle the verdict or the lack of evidence that AEG should have known, etc, so they just get into what IMO are outlandish theories (like RP was there the night MJ died telling CM what to do or that Wade Robson is being paid by AEG to make those charges, etc). They even think that Juror #27 is an AEG plant, along with most of us of course.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by marebear View Post
    No one here supports Murray but him doing whatever and saying whatever against Michael is wrong. It has nothing to do with AEG or the Jacksons. How many times do people get away with this and we wish there were laws or something to stop people from doing that? Restitution against Murray would have helped.

    I don't want to hear anything from him. I don't want read he did this interview and said he loved Michael. I don't want to see pictures of him laughing when Michael is buried at Forest Lawn. I don't want to hear him say he is writing a book. We don't have to pay attention to anything he does but the fact that he will have the opportunity to basically trash Michael who is the VICTIM here is disgusting. Whether you like the Jacksons or not the fact is that they had the opportunity to do that for Michael. To make sure he doesn't profit of killing him. He killed Michael and it feels like it is no big deal. I guess I am in the minority here but it feels so wrong to me.
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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    I am sure I'm in the minority; however, NO ONE will EVER make me believe that Katherine filed this lawsuit against AEG for "justice" for Michael. She attempted to SETTLE several times and was turned down by AEG. Why would a mother seeking "justice"want to settle? IF she wanted to expose AEG, why want to settle? It doesn't make any sense. Why not want restitution from the REAL killer, Conrad Murray? This lawsuit was about MONEY for her "cubs" (grown children) to have to take care of them for the rest of their lives. That's the bottomline and it is a shame that the Jackson Family supporters refuse to see that. I have said this many time and I will say it again, AEG are son-of-a-bitches, but they did not kill Michael, Conrad Murray's negligence and incompetence is the cause of Michael's death. The verdict was correct.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by marebear View Post
    No one here supports Murray but him doing whatever and saying whatever against Michael is wrong. It has nothing to do with AEG or the Jacksons. How many times do people get away with this and we wish there were laws or something to stop people from doing that? Restitution against Murray would have helped.

    I don't want to hear anything from him. I don't want read he did this interview and said he loved Michael. I don't want to see pictures of him laughing when Michael is buried at Forest Lawn. I don't want to hear him say he is writing a book. We don't have to pay attention to anything he does but the fact that he will have the opportunity to basically trash Michael who is the VICTIM here is disgusting. Whether you like the Jacksons or not the fact is that they had the opportunity to do that for Michael. To make sure he doesn't profit of killing him. He killed Michael and it feels like it is no big deal. I guess I am in the minority here but it feels so wrong to me.
    No, you are not in the minority. I feel the same way. Michael's family is giving his murderer a free pass to get out of jail and make MONEY by saying anything he wants. You can bet the Jackson family will not say anything in defense of Michael. They will sit back and ALLOW the murderer, Conrad Murray, to say what he wants. Seriously, They sold out Michael when he was alive and they will do it again FOR MONEY.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by marebear View Post
    Whether you like the Jacksons or not the fact is that they had the opportunity to do that for Michael. To make sure he doesn't profit of killing him. He killed Michael and it feels like it is no big deal. I guess I am in the minority here but it feels so wrong to me.
    you aren't the minority here IMO. It does feel like Murray was given a free pass because there was a bigger fish to fry.

    Quote Originally Posted by serendipity View Post
    How can you have no issue with the family rejecting restitution, but have an issue with the fans? I can't take seriously your "I don't want Murray to profit" claims when you have no issue with the family letting him freely to profit. To me there's no logic in that.
    and I don't get the focus on the fans. Not everything will be in the hands of the fans, there will be a public as well. Katherine explained herself as she believed Murray had several kids and his money would be needed on his kids. Logically asking how does anyone or Katherine expect Murray to earn any money? His medical licenses are suspended and probably would be revoked for good - if/when his appeal hopefully gets denied. So he can't earn money from being a doctor - unless I guess he leaves US and becomes a doctor in another country. So I'm curious in that regard that what income source does people expect Murray to have other than trying to profit from Michael? Are you really expecting him for example to get a 9 to 5 job making minimum wage? and if the logic is "support Katherine" then why are the fans expected to go against Katherine's wishes of allowing Murray to earn money for his kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamba View Post
    Well, I agree Tygger has been 'steadfast that it is a good thing that someone with an alternate viewpoint has joined the thread from start to finish. There have been others but I think they ended up insulting the other posters and the entire forum, so they got banned. I appreciate that Tygger has stayed away from that approach. What ever happened to Bouee btw???
    I agree that an alternative viewpoint that makes a discussion interesting and even heated but there's nothing interesting in the same things being repeated and everything the opposite side saying being rejected. That's not really a discussion and it had been a serious turn off for me.

    There haven't been many banned. Only one person was banned in connection to this topic which was before the trial started and that was because they were talking negatively about MJJC, staff and members- it got nothing to do with their opinions on the trial. As Gaz says this is like our home, you can't really expect to be welcome here if you are disrespecting the other people in this home. Other than that a few people were given temporary time outs just to give them time to calm down. Banning is really the last resort on MJJC.

    Seems to me that the anti-AEG faction of the MJ fans can't handle the verdict or the lack of evidence that AEG should have known, etc, so they just get into what IMO are outlandish theories (like RP was there the night MJ died telling CM what to do or that Wade Robson is being paid by AEG to make those charges, etc). They even think that Juror #27 is an AEG plant, along with most of us of course.
    u realized that? I mean I can't believe it, for some people everything - and I mean literally everything - is a conspiracy. what I don't get it is these people know and cherish that the legal system in America determined Michael was innocent - hence worked as it should in the past. But now that there is a verdict they don't agree with the system and everyone in it (lawyers, judge, jury) and the fans with opposing views are either corrupt or bought. It's a little cuckoo for my taste.

    Quote Originally Posted by somewhereinthedark View Post
    I am sure I'm in the minority; however, NO ONE will EVER make me believe that Katherine filed this lawsuit against AEG for "justice" for Michael. She attempted to SETTLE several times and was turned down by AEG. Why would a mother seeking "justice"want to settle? IF she wanted to expose AEG, why want to settle? It doesn't make any sense. Why not want restitution from the REAL killer, Conrad Murray?
    minority? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure most people would agree with the above portion. Jacksons offering two settlements that would be paid by AEG's insurance had been a very interesting bit of information and yes it does make me question the seeking truth and justice claims. On the other hand AEG never considering or offering settlement is also another interesting bit of information.
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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryevans View Post
    Tygger, IMO has been one of the reasons the thread has been interesting. No one has hung onto the merry go around more steadfastly with opposing opinion and rationale, and even though that rationale can have me head scratching at times, I think the perspective has been helpful, especially considering nearly half of this community who voted in our poll share Tygger’s opinion about AEG’s liability, and that has not been reflected in the five months of discussion here of the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamba View Post
    Well, I agree Tygger has been 'steadfast' but what is frustrating is that you never get anywhere--just a repeat of what was said before--so IDK how 'interesting' that is, but I agree that it is a good thing that someone with an alternate viewpoint has joined the thread from start to finish.
    Gerryevans, Jamba, that was kind. Thank you.

    Jamba, while you may feel I have been repetitious, I am one poster expressing my own view that I have to continually defend against several posters who do not agree thus, repetition. From the opposite side, I have read the same, shared concept restated countless times by several posters. It would have been amusing and a much shorter thread if those who agreed with each other nominated a spokesperson for their views.

    I believe Bouee would have made a great juror and had great posts with detailed evidence and testimony. I understand why Bouee may have felt the need to remove him/herself from the discussion. I do wonder how Bouee felt about the verdict.

    Gerryevans, you asked me why Michael was left with the doctor if it was not an unethical treatment. Adams agreed to join TII however the doctor prevented him from joining. That question is still not the same as saying Michael knew the doctor was unethical and I have said there is no evidence that Michael knew the doctor was unethical. I also said, to your point, if Michael knew the doctor was unethical, he was deceptive and possibly fraudulent. That still does not absolve AEG from their actions and responsibilities when they decided they would indeed hire the doctor.

    perhaps it explains why I don’t believe Dr. Conrad Murray was conflicted AT ALL. He got lucky with MJ's interest in him and took full advantage of the situation. He was an opportunist who saw MJ's desperation and calculated how to best serve his interests.
    ????

    That is the very definition of a conflicted doctor. The Hippocratic Oath is ignored and the patient is not first.

    Serendipity, I already answered your question and you are free to not take my response seriously. Some fans do not want to take any accountability for a part they may play in the doctor's potential profit from his fatal crime. Better to save their energy and blame the Jacksons for their own personal actions. There is no logic in monies going to the Jacksons as opposed to going directly to the doctor as there should be no monies going either place! He can only profit from his fatal crime if he is supported and the Jacksons are not going to support him so again, who is?

    I have noticed you did not answer my question to you.
    Last edited by Tygger; 20-10-2013 at 06:24 AM.

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