View Poll Results: Final verdict

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  • AEG liable

    80 48.19%
  • AEG not liable

    86 51.81%
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Thread: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

   
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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by xosweetseducingsighsxo View Post
    Make the whole Jackson family 'look' bad? Lemme do a review over things said and done here:

    •Joseph physically and emotionally abused Michael.
    •Katherine is filing a lawsuit that not only exploited her son's personal, PERSONAL info, but his financial info too.
    •Rebbie's friends with Stacey Brown (that jerk talks all sorts of crap about MJ.)
    •Jermaine dissed his brother (I don't care if he wanted some 'attention' or not. You don't ever diss your little brother, especially during a horrible time in his life.)
    •Latoya dissed her brother on LIVE TV! (Jack Gordon made her do it? I sympathize there, but dude..you're on TV..tell them that bastard is making you say that crap. Don't go with it...at least not without a fight.)
    •Randy, Janet, Jerm, and Rebbie kidnapped Katherine last year.
    •Tito, Marlon and Jackie are at fault because they didn't check on Michael the last years of his life, and they sure aren't protecting those beautiful kids.

    ^^ They make themselves look bad..no one's making this stuff up. That's not even bad, that's horrible.

    AEG is liable, and quite frankly, every single Jackson is liable too. They ALL killed Michael. I think this whole trial was unnecessary, and it opened one more wound that'll be hard to heal.
    Wow--when you put it that way, makes me wonder why people who criticize the Jackson family in an MJ fan forum are accused of NOT BEING MJ FANS!!!

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Korgnex View Post
    [*]What about option a)? Is there anything to suggest that "showing up to rehearsals" is a request by AEG Live to consider a risky treatment, providing sub-standard care or enforcing a treatment for which Murray was not qualified?
    Korgnex, I reviewed your outlined post again that attempts to answer question three because I want to follow your logic as someone who wants to find AEG not liable by answering no to this question. The doctor being tasked with Michael’s rehearsal attendance was one task. He was also tasked to gather Michael’s medical records for AEG so they could garner additional insurance.

    AEG, as the third party, tasked a personal doctor to ensure Michael attended rehearsal. That is a conflict of interest. What other way can this be characterized? What was Gongaware’s “smoking gun” email in reply to? Ortega telling Gongaware Michael did not attend rehearsal.

    If the doctor was not successful in getting Michael to rehearsal, AEG had grounds to terminate him whether Michael wanted the doctor to remain or not. Again, that is a conflict of interest. What is the doctor’s primary focus in this scenario which was the reality? If he did not get Michael to rehearsal, he was not going to collect his $150K fee. I do not believe anyone can reasonably believe that the doctor would put Michael’s health above the collection of his $150K fee. When the patient is not placed first, the doctor is conflicted.

    Is the conflict of interest more clear now? With a conflicted doctor, how is the patient not at risk. What would happen if AEG did terminate the doctor? Where would that leave Michael? AEG could not see how that would be a serious point of concern? Can a reasonable person see how this is a serious point of concern?

    How can one arrive at a no answer to question three?

    Please do not ignore the relationship between AEG and the doctor. This relationship has been avoided in general in this subforum. I have routinely posted comparisons between the AEG/Klein relationship, a doctor paid by an advance, and the AEG/killer doctor relationship, a doctor with an employment contract. I am confused why the relationship between the doctor and AEG which resulted in the doctor’s conflict interest is not reviewed when answering question three.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korgnex View Post
    You're forgetting that there were no conflicting draft agreements for any of those.
    Korgnex I was only referring to the fact that those independent contractors had implied contracts that, yes, were agreed upon by the parties involved before a written, signed contract existed.

    What was the conflict for the doctor’s contract? Would it be the absence of Michael’s signature or was there another issue like Michael's passing? Michael’s signature was not needed for AEG to recoup the pre-production costs after his passing.

    Btw, "per our agreement" is a double-edged sword and does not imply Murray felt he had established a contract between him and AEG Live.
    Please explain how the “per our agreement” phrase is a double-edge sword.

    Because of Michael's contractual commitment to the concerts, they talked to Murray in the first place.
    I agree if it was not for Michael, AEG would not have any discussions with the doctor. However, the actions of AEG and the doctor point to more than just a discussion of Michael’s health. A relationship was formed that did not exist with AEG and others who were paid through an advance.

    Yes, the improperly conducted propoful infusion was sub-standard care and thus put Michael at risk.
    Honestly, if the doctor was to give Michael a Tylenol PM every night for $150K, it would be substandard care. Why? The doctor would not be concerned with Michael's health first. There would come a day when the doctor would be tempted to give Michael more Tylenol PM than necessary or not give him Tylenol PM at all if it meant the doctor could achieve the desired result of Michael showing up at rehearsal. Again, conflicted interest results in the patient not being first.
    Last edited by Tygger; 29-09-2013 at 06:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by jamba View Post
    Wow--when you put it that way, makes me wonder why people who criticize the Jackson family in an MJ fan forum are accused of NOT BEING MJ FANS!!!

    Okay, I'm gonna take that as a compliment, as I can't understand your tone here. Don't know if you're agreeing or if it's sarcasm if it's agreeing then that's cool, but if it isn't:



    Being an MJ fan has absolutely nothing to do with thinking the Jacksons are bad and just as liable as AEG. It's about being an MJ fan. Just Michael's. It's not required to be a Jackson family fan if you love ONLY Michael. Just like it wouldn't be required to love Left Eye or Chilli if you love T-Boz from TLC ONLY. Same as it wouldn't be required to love Beyonce or Kelly if I loved only Michelle. Don't get mad at me or anyone else who feels the same way's opinion.

    In my opinion, yes they are just as liable as AEG. Nothing is gonna change my opinion at all. They're all guilty in my eyes. I can't speak for everyone else.

    Lemme guess? Because I can't stand the other Jacksons I'm not an MJ fan?

    Since when on earth did that make sense? Please enlighten me.

    But once again, ^ the above is only if you meant it other than agreeing.
    Last edited by xosweetseducingsighsxo; 29-09-2013 at 06:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by LastTear View Post
    So AEG did not check to see if Murray had any medical malpractice suits brought against him?

    Michaels signature was was the final signature before the contract was binding and active, doesn't that make sense that he and his people would see it last?
    Last Tear, repeating, AEG did not vet the doctor. Jorrie’s ten minute Google search was the only search done on the doctor and she is not a part of AEG. I do not believe it is logical or sensible that Michael’s legal team would see the contract after the doctor signed it.

    Right here

    This agreement will be terminated if the Artist, for any reason,does not want Conrad Murray’s services
    Can you quote the passages that show how AEG can terminate the contract please.
    Last Tear, I am extremely disappointed with this response. That statement is NOT in the contract the doctor signed and I am baffled as to why you posted it!

    Because you said “please” and I prefer AEG be found liable, here is the termination section from the contract the doctor signed in its entirety with an accompanying link.

    Note 7.3. Michael cannot terminate the doctor. If he would like the doctor to be terminated, he can express his grievances to AEG first and AEG will then terminate the doctor. It is difficult to terminate someone you did not hire.



    http://www.psblaw.com/wp-content/upl...388-127393.pdf


    Quote Originally Posted by smoothlugar View Post
    I am in the middle of your post, (and pages back), but before I forget it, because it's the 2nd time you have written this. Where did you get the idea that propofol "cannot" be administered without lidocaine?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beshlie View Post
    Lidocaine is given with Propofol because otherwise it is very painful as it enters your vein.
    Quote Originally Posted by smoothlugar View Post
    Yes, thanks, I know that. It is usually given before injection or mixed with the amount to be infused. My question was for the choice of words, "cannot be given without it".
    Smoothlugar, Beshlie is correct. However, a professional would not harm a patient and give propofol without lidocaine to prove simply that they can. This was discussed in the criminal trial as well. In the civil trial, however, if it can somehow be suggested that Michael was receiving propofol from the doctor before May (when the doctor ordered and received lidocaine cream and his employment contract started), one can somehow twist it to hopefully absolve AEG.
    Last edited by Tygger; 29-09-2013 at 07:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by xosweetseducingsighsxo View Post
    Make the whole Jackson family 'look' bad? Lemme do a review over things said and done here:

    •Joseph physically and emotionally abused Michael.
    •Katherine is filing a lawsuit that not only exploited her son's personal, PERSONAL info, but his financial info too.
    •Rebbie's friends with Stacey Brown (that jerk talks all sorts of crap about MJ.)
    •Jermaine dissed his brother (I don't care if he wanted some 'attention' or not. You don't ever diss your little brother, especially during a horrible time in his life.)
    •Latoya dissed her brother on LIVE TV! (Jack Gordon made her do it? I sympathize there, but dude..you're on TV..tell them that bastard is making you say that crap. Don't go with it...at least not without a fight.)
    •Randy, Janet, Jerm, and Rebbie kidnapped Katherine last year.
    •Tito, Marlon and Jackie are at fault because they didn't check on Michael the last years of his life, and they sure aren't protecting those beautiful kids.

    ^^ They make themselves look bad..no one's making this stuff up. That's not even bad, that's horrible.

    AEG is liable, and quite frankly, every single Jackson is liable too. They ALL killed Michael. I think this whole trial was unnecessary, and it opened one more wound that'll be hard to heal.
    I can add the use of Michael´s children to get money .
    "How much did I really know about life on earth? What responsibility did I feel for creatures outside my little space?
    How could I lead my life so that every cell of living matter was also benefited?" Michael Jackson
    "Love no violence ever, remember a beautiful future promise of tomorrow "MJ


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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by MIST View Post
    I can add the use of Michael´s children to get money .
    ^ Amen. But I don't wanna derail the thread :shifty:

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by xosweetseducingsighsxo View Post
    ^ Amen. But I don't wanna derail the thread :shifty:
    We can say if some fans don´t want the jackson family to have any money from AEG it has nothing to do with how much they love Michael.It´s the same if some fans want AEG to pay.
    "How much did I really know about life on earth? What responsibility did I feel for creatures outside my little space?
    How could I lead my life so that every cell of living matter was also benefited?" Michael Jackson
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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    @Tygger
    Last Tear, repeating, AEG did not vet the doctor. Jorrie’s ten minute Google search was the only search done on the doctor and she is not a part of AEG. I do not believe it is logical or sensible that Michael’s legal team would see the contract after the doctor signed it.
    Its what we do best, going round in circles Jorrie represented AEG, the doctor was vetted, to a point, you can't make a blanket statement that the doctor was not vetted. It is logical to me that Michaels team are the last to review the contract.... We don't know if there would have been changes made.

    Last Tear, I am extremely disappointed with this response. That statement is NOT in the contract the doctor signed and I am baffled as to why you posted it!

    Because you said “please” and I prefer AEG be found liable, here is the termination section from the contract the doctor signed in its entirety with an accompanying link.


    Note 7.3. Michael cannot terminate the doctor. If he would like the doctor to be terminated, he can express his grievances to AEG first and AEG will then terminate the doctor. It is difficult to terminate someone you did not hire.
    I know, I was lazy and needed to get on with something else and I just couldn't find the contract fast enough on Panish's site.

    7.3 I believe was changed as a point of law. Note: AEG can terminate the agreement only for cancellations or failure to obtain licences, conduct, treatment etc is dependant on Michael. This clause tells me that Michael has the final say on Murray.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by maviefly View Post
    His power was taken away by things like this:

    'After the horrible events of 2005, I worked with him on This Is t as well. Michael was terribly loyal and so we were basically the same old crew: Karen Faye used to do his hair, Michael Bush did his clothing and I worked his voice. But then I left the project. I told Michael: „Mike, they offer me less money than they did twenty years ago. They want me to take less salary that buys two thirds less of what it used to buy. They are doing it with everybody.“ He said: „I know, they taking away all the people that I know and that I'm comfortable with. My securityblanket is disappearing. I don't know what I'm gonna do.
    Michael's voice trainer Seth Riggs in "A Life for Love"
    His power was taken away! Did you say that or Seth?
    Is Seth saying that he left TII because he was getting less money from MJ than he got 20 years ago?
    No wonder MJ was stressed, there were problems coming in from every direction. If Seth left, it only means that MJ didn't go to AEG people and told them Seth needs to be paid more.

    I find it extremely sad, that as we now know, MJ was in deep financial troubles, and could even get more credit to his credit card or couldn't pay Havenhurst bills (if he was supposed to pay for those), then there are people who are unhappy that they get less money than 20 years ago. MJ money issues were a lot more better 20 years ago then they were in 2009.
    20 years ago there weren't around $400 million hanging around his neck.
    Last edited by Bubs; 29-09-2013 at 09:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    http://www.sethriggs.com/seth_mj2009_statement.html

    I have worked closely with Michael for over 21 years, as his vocal coach and his friend. We have been through countless concerts, performances, rehearsals and tours… but nothing quite like his “This is it Tour”. We worked tirelessly, everyday, as Michael is indeed a true perfectionist. He took every measure to make sure he was prepared for the grueling tour, vocally and in all other aspects as well. It truly would have been a legendary tour.


    At this time there are millions of press releases flooding us with “reports” and accusations. I stand strong that Michael Jackson was well before his tragic death and eager to begin his world-wind tour. I believe he was devoted to making the best tour for his fans that was humanly possibly, and beyond! Any other misquotes or assumptions posed to be my words are false, as this is my first and possibly only public statement regarding this matter. I believe that unless it is proven otherwise, his cause of death was accidental.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Annita View Post
    http://www.sethriggs.com/seth_mj2009_statement.html

    I have worked closely with Michael for over 21 years, as his vocal coach and his friend. We have been through countless concerts, performances, rehearsals and tours… but nothing quite like his “This is it Tour”. We worked tirelessly, everyday, as Michael is indeed a true perfectionist. He took every measure to make sure he was prepared for the grueling tour, vocally and in all other aspects as well. It truly would have been a legendary tour.


    At this time there are millions of press releases flooding us with “reports” and accusations. I stand strong that Michael Jackson was well before his tragic death and eager to begin his world-wind tour. I believe he was devoted to making the best tour for his fans that was humanly possibly, and beyond! Any other misquotes or assumptions posed to be my words are false, as this is my first and possibly only public statement regarding this matter. I believe that unless it is proven otherwise, his cause of death was accidental.
    Thanks Annita.

    I take it that Seth didn't say that what one poster posted earlier unless I see those words coming out of Seth's mouth directly.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tygger View Post
    Last Tear, repeating, AEG did not vet the doctor. Jorrie’s ten minute Google search was the only search done on the doctor and she is not a part of AEG. I do not believe it is logical or sensible that Michael’s legal team would see the contract after the doctor signed it.
    Actually, contracts are generally signed by one party and then sent to the other party to be countersigned. If Murray was repping himself, his signing it first is completely logical because HE agreed with the contents of the contract. That does not mean Michael was going to sign it before sending it to his team. Contracts could have continued to have gone back and forth for weeks before ALL signatures were on it. It happens all the time.
    "Of all the thousands of entertainers I have worked with, Michael was THE most outstanding. Many have tried and will try to copy him, but his talent will never be matched." Dick Clark

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tygger View Post
    Last Tear, I am extremely disappointed with this response. That statement is NOT in the contract the doctor signed and I am baffled as to why you posted it!

    Because you said “please” and I prefer AEG be found liable, here is the termination section from the contract the doctor signed in its entirety with an accompanying link.

    Note 7.3. Michael cannot terminate the doctor. If he would like the doctor to be terminated, he can express his grievances to AEG first and AEG will then terminate the doctor. It is difficult to terminate someone you did not hire.



    http://www.psblaw.com/wp-content/upl...388-127393.pdf

    You're not understanding the sense of this termination at all. Of course it has to be AEG Live terminating Dr. Murray's advance payment(!!!). AEG Live was loaning the money to Michael to be able to pay Murray. AEG Live had all rights to set terms for cases in which they would terminate that advance payment. They don't loan someone money without having some legal protection.

    Read clause 7.3 carefully:
    Immediately by Producer if the Artist decides for any reason that the Artist no longer wants or needs the services of Dr. Murray.

    That first word, "immediately", is what had you caught.
    However it's Michael Jackson only who can decide "for any reason" to release Murray (from the work for which Michael hired him). AFTER Michael's decision AEG Live can "immediately" (read: immediately AFTER) dissolve this agreement about advance payment for Michael to Murray.
    It is very clear in writing that only Michael Jackson is wanting/needing (=requesting) services from Murray and NOT AEG Live.

    As you can read yourself all other clauses of the termination section are about AEG Live having the right to dissolve the advance payment if
    • a) any of them fails to fulfill their "material obligations" (AEG Live: advance payments, Murray: performing services for Michael, clause 7.1)
      [and logically, Murray gets a right in that clause, too]
    • b) concerts are cancelled/postponed (clause 7.2)
    • c) Murray failing to meet any required legal prerequisites (clauses 7.4 - 7.6)

    Clauses 7.7 and 7.8 are dealing with refunds (satisfactorily performed services, purchasements for equipment/medical supplies).


    And about my posting: I was making it to show you how YOU would have to go through Question 3, not me. You cannot ignore you have to determine "the work [Murray] was hired for" and if he was "unfit" or "incompetent" in that regard first. You're just focusing on a "conflict of interest" without defining and answering the keywords of the actual question.
    Last edited by Korgnex; 29-09-2013 at 12:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tygger View Post
    Note 7.3. Michael cannot terminate the doctor. If he would like the doctor to be terminated, he can express his grievances to AEG first and AEG will then terminate the doctor. It is difficult to terminate someone you did not hire.
    You are contradicting yourself. if MJ cannot terminate the doctor, then why would he send termination instructions to AEG?

    Let's take a look at 7.3 again

    Immediately by Producer if the Artist decides for any reason that the Artist no longer wants or needs the services of Dr. Murray
    Translation: MJ could send termination instructions to AEG to execute at any time for whatever reason. AEG on the other hand would act immediately upon receipt of such instructions from MJ. In other words, MJ was calling the shots. It's that simple.

    This clause is similar to you sending payment instructions to your bank to transfer money from one account to another. The bank will execute such instructions immediately upon receipt. Plus, the bank on its own cannot remove money from your account without your explicit consent.

    This clearly shows the relationship between Murray-MJ-AEG where by AEG was just a financial/credit provider (AEG was lending money) while MJ was the client(MJ was borrowing money since he was broke) and Murray the independent contractor providing health care service for the benefit of MJ.
    Last edited by passy001; 29-09-2013 at 11:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryevans View Post
    Actually, contracts are generally signed by one party and then sent to the other party to be countersigned. If Murray was repping himself, his signing it first is completely logical because HE agreed with the contents of the contract. That does not mean Michael was going to sign it before sending it to his team. Contracts could have continued to have gone back and forth for weeks before ALL signatures were on it. It happens all the time.
    Yes, and it's quite common for changes to be made as contracts reach different parties, clearly Murray was ok with it but it doesn't mean to say that what was presented in court would have been the final, executed contract.

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