View Poll Results: Final verdict

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  • AEG liable

    80 48.19%
  • AEG not liable

    86 51.81%
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Thread: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

   
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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    I understand the reasoning behind saying NO to question number 2 because of its wording! But, because the jurors did find that Murray was Hired by AEG, for some anything he did wrong later should fall on their responsibility, regardless! And I can understand that too because they did hire him. I will always be split with this case and the verdict, both sides made good arguments IMO!


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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryevans View Post
    You can only go by the knowledge that you do have, and there was NONE to suggest that he did not have the knowledge he was supposed to at the time he was hired. A deeper background check would not have evidenced those facts either, considering the plaintiffs did an exhaustive background check and nothing suggested his lack of a basic.
    Technically that was what the next question was about (3). And there I would agree with you. But q. 2 was about simple fact - was he competent or not to do the job. My logic is: the job required first aid skills, he didn't have them, hence - not fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryevans View Post
    But his not calling 911 wasn't about skill or professional know how. A kid knows to call 911. Murray's was about covering himself and covering up. MJ was already dead when Murray started making any calls. And that he DID know.
    It is a skill, because when you are taught first aid, you are taught that call 911 is the first thing you should do, before you start CPR. He didn't do it, and his excuse later was the he didn't call because he started doing CPR first. This technically means he didn't have the proper skill.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by bluetopez View Post
    I understand the reasoning behind saying NO to question number 2 because of its wording! But, because the jurors did find that Murray was Hired by AEG, for some anything he did wrong later should fall on their responsibility, regardless! And I can understand that too because they did hire him. I will always be split with this case and the verdict, both sides made good arguments IMO!
    That's basically what Tom Mez was always saying, that if AEG hired him, they assumed the "risk" for him, which always sort of pricked my insides, because MJ was the reason Murray was anywhere near TII, and it means if MJ is bringing someone into the picture, you're assuming some kind of risk, which turns out could endanger your entire company. When the fact of the matter is, EXCEPT for crazy Murray, everyone who worked with MJ professionally was the very best. Even Klien, was once one of the foremost,most respected dermatologist in his field. I understand yours and Mez' point, but can't help it, it bothers me hearing a competency risk is involved with an MJ recommendation.
    "Of all the thousands of entertainers I have worked with, Michael was THE most outstanding. Many have tried and will try to copy him, but his talent will never be matched." Dick Clark

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by morinen View Post
    It is a skill, because when you are taught first aid, you are taught that call 911 is the first thing you should do, before you start CPR. He didn't do it, and his excuse later was the he didn't call because he started doing CPR first. This technically means he didn't have the proper skill.
    I think MJ was already dead, he knew it, and was reacting out of panic. Knew 911 wouldn't do any good, and everything was basically an act to cover himself.
    "Of all the thousands of entertainers I have worked with, Michael was THE most outstanding. Many have tried and will try to copy him, but his talent will never be matched." Dick Clark

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    It is a good thing that you are now a member on this board, Juror'27!
    Here you can much read about Michael. I hope you have enough time for that and I'm warning you:
    Michael Jackson is a bottomless pit and you will want to know more...and more...and more about his difficult and really not easy live.

    And one thing is very important if you are studying "Michael": SAPERE AUDE! (Have courage to make use of your own understanding).



    Quote Originally Posted by morinen View Post
    This trial may have revealed many truths, but in the aftermath it left the image of a lost, frightened star functioning on drugs and on the verge of a financial collapse.

    I talked about Michael at work the other day (about his last songs, incl. Cascio tracks), and someone noted, "The guy was doped on god knows what, maybe he couldn't even sing properly."

    It's just painful, becasue we know it's not how Michael would have wanted to be rememebred. This trial should have never happened.
    /morinen
    is this your convincing or your fear?
    I for myself am feeling the opposite because this image was already there since his own trial 2005.
    BUT NOW during this trial were said (thanks to Debbie and Mr. Ortega!) the REASONS for this image. And this is on record now!
    And when ever someone is saying somewhat about about doped or so --- we have the knowledges about the connections between his illnesses / pain and the necessity from the painkillers und sleephelps.
    Now it can nobody say 'you are telling me a nice story' because it was a court with a jury and the witnesses had to do a oath.

    /Ivy
    How many would cost all copies from the trial?
    Maybe we could think about collecting this money?

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Mneme View Post
    /morinen
    is this your convincing or your fear?
    I for myself am feeling the opposite because this image was already there since his own trial 2005.
    BUT NOW during this trial were said (thanks to Debbie and Mr. Ortega!) the REASONS for this image. And this is on record now!
    And when ever someone is saying somewhat about about doped or so --- we have the knowledges about the connections between his illnesses / pain and the necessity from the painkillers und sleephelps.
    Now it can nobody say 'you are telling me a nice story' because it was a court with a jury and the witnesses had to do a oath.
    For the record, when that person said "doped", she didn't imply anything mean, that he was a junkie or anything. She just stated it as a fact related to his insomnia. She was actually a casual fan.

    See, the thing is he obviously wanted to be rememebered as a strong person, unbreakable, invincible, the greatest. Not as a poor struggling guy succumbing to pain and illnesses. That's why he kept all those issues private. I think that's his wish and aspiration that the family should have respected in the first place.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by morinen View Post
    It is a skill, because when you are taught first aid, you are taught that call 911 is the first thing you should do, before you start CPR. He didn't do it, and his excuse later was the he didn't call because he started doing CPR first. This technically means he didn't have the proper skill.
    Calling 911 doesn't require any skill, it is what everyone can learn. Murray not doing it was either intentionally or affect based/negligent. But that's not different than him causing involuntary manslaughter of MJ, it is not relevant for defining "fit" and "competent".

    From someone's inaction you cannot conclude that person was unfit or incompetent.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by StellaJackson View Post
    The question wasn't "did AEG and Michael hire Murray?" It was "did AEG hire Murray?"

    That quote actually shows that they couldn't decide who hired him. In the end they decided it was AEG and thus they answered yes to the question. Ultimately, the semantics of it will become irrelevant as the official verdict states that AEG hired Murray and makes no mention of Michael hiring him.
    exactly. and if the second question would also changed to "was murray unfit and incompetent to perform medical care to michael jackson", aeg would have to pay now.

    Quote Originally Posted by xosweetseducingsighsxo View Post
    How is Bubs' comment ridiculous? Or full of hate? It's true, that's the REAL reason Randy's crying. It's not because he thought this was injustice, it's because he thought he was getting big bucks, but he lost. Do you really believe that any of those Jacksons care about Michael? If so, please tell me how this trial was gonna help his legacy.

    The fact is, the Jacksons (except PPB) have been living off of Michael way too long and it's time to find a real job. Come to think of it, I oughta tweet Randy and tell him that they have a job open at McDonald's.
    thats the same if i claim something about AEG. you dont have evidence.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    @mjchris: That's wrong. Take a look at what the jury foreman said about "general practitioner" (that's exactly what you wrote above, "general medical care", you forgot the "general" though). Murray was fit and competent for this work and that's correct.

    You have also changed "unfit or incompetent" to "unfit and incompetent", that way it would have to be both. The original question with "or" is way easier in order to answer with "yes".

    There are 3 more questions, mjchris, and the jury foreman explained they would have answered question 3 with "no" because the trial has not proven that AEG Live knew or should have known about what Murray did and plaintiffs have the burden of proof.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoIsIt89 View Post
    There's no evidence that AEG knew what was going on with Michael and Murray during the late evenings in his home, either. And thankfully, doesn't rely on what a person thinks when they have no evidence to support that thought. The burden of proving that with actual evidence lied with Katherine's legal team. They couldn't do it, thus the correct verdict came down.
    and only because the people from aeg don't want to say any truth, dont want to recall, even dont know what they have written, talked, or what some words they wrote says, doesnt mean that they are not guilty to the public.
    the verdict didnt say that they are not responsible for michael jackson's death. the verdict just say that aeg hired murray, and that murray was fit to do what was mentioned in the contract. but there is no verdict if aeg knew what murray is doing. no verdict if murray cared about michael jackson when his contition is very bad (that is the question that should have been on the verdict form). no verdict if its true that aeg pressure michael jackson and murray. no verdict that aeg ignored all the red flags, played everything down, didnt care about michael jackson. and so on. so many question that would be much more important. but no, they choose such a question that can not be answered with YES. the jury itself also said if question 2 would be changed a bit, the verdict is different.

    and they media selling it as "AEG is not responsible for michael jackson dead". what is a ****ing lie! ****ing media weirdos!

    aeg is partly responsible for michael jacksons death.
    murray is partly responsible for michael jacksons death.
    michael jackson himself is partly responsible for his own death.
    Last edited by mjchris; 05-10-2013 at 07:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by morinen View Post
    See, the thing is he obviously wanted to be rememebered as a strong person, unbreakable, invincible, the greatest. Not as a poor struggling guy succumbing to pain and illnesses. That's why he kept all those issues private. I think that's his wish and aspiration that the family should have respected in the first place.
    No-no, Morinen, on no account I see Michael as a guy who is succumbing to his pain/illness!
    I for myself can say I am most impressed about his dealings with his illnesses. Look at how old he was when it began! I may not imagine how he was feeling. he, the man who loved the perfection.
    I mean he really was a second Job (bible) and he had taken it. He had it taken!
    He fell down and after a while he get up and carry on. Always and always.
    This too is one of his messages: Keep the faith to (or: on?) yourself.

    Yes, Michael was a struggeling guy and he could be very proud of that.
    he was always struggeling and therefore unbreakable.
    I am sure I don't would have this power.
    Last edited by Mneme; 05-10-2013 at 08:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Korgnex View Post
    @mjchris: That's wrong. Take a look at what the jury foreman said about "general practitioner" (that's exactly what you wrote above, "general medical care", you forgot the "general" though). Murray was fit and competent for this work and that's correct.

    You have also changed "unfit or incompetent" to "unfit and incompetent", that way it would have to be both. The original question with "or" is way easier in order to answer with "yes".

    There are 3 more questions, mjchris, and the jury foreman explained they would have answered question 3 with "no" because the trial has not proven that AEG Live knew or should have known about what Murray did and plaintiffs have the burden of proof.
    uhuu. i think i will send my posts first to you for checking them if they are correct written, and then posting them.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Mod note: Please stop the name calling towards Jackson family. Also please realize that this is a thread to discuss the verdict and not Jackson family. If you want to discuss Randy Jackson, start a thread in the 2300 jackson street. Thread cleaned.
    Twitter : Ivy_4MJ

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    I just want to say thanks to Juror#27 too. I actually hoped that the jury would end up liking Michael as a person. Despite everything said or what the media says that people can see the truth about Michael. A lot of people who talk badly about Michael just repeat what tabloids and other sources like that say and that is all bs. The positivity they feel can be passed to other people too.

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    Default Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Juror#27 View Post
    I couldn't agree more with the bolded. It's practically an epidemic as far as I'm concerned.

    I was on this jury, and of all the places I've seen where this is being talked about, this community seems by far to be the most level-headed and approachable. So many passionate MJ fans rationally discussing the verdict rather than lashing out in anger is very nice to see, and makes me think this is probably the best place for me to make a small statement.

    Initially I planned to avoid and ignore all the comments about the verdict after the trial ended. Because as soon as we answered 'no' to question 2 in the jury room, I knew how it would be reported and misunderstood ("DURR STUPID JURY HOW CAN CONRAD MURRAY BE FIT AND COMPETENT WHEN HE IS IN JAIL FOR KILLING MJ??? DURRR"). And sure enough, the very first question asked by the media when we got outside was "How could you find Conrad Murray competent?" And of course a bunch of hardcore MJ supporters outside were yelling, calling us stupid and confused, etc. So I figured rather than getting annoyed at misinformation being spread or seeing us called morons ad nauseam, it'd be better to just ignore it all.

    Well that lasted about a day before my curiosity got the better of me, and I had to peek around to see what people were saying. I had to see if that version of us as idiots was the main narrative going on. Thankfully most people commenting on the verdict are actually looking at what we were instructed to consider, and agree with our decision. We knew from day 1 that no matter the outcome we would have people agreeing and disagreeing with the verdict, and I'm thankful that this jury did not concern itself with what people would say or think about us and decided to follow the instructions and base our verdict on the evidence in the case.

    Just like our jury foreman, I went into this trial about as neutral as one could be towards Michael Jackson. I was 7 when Thriller came out so I grew up with his music and loved it, but I knew very little about his life other than what I'd seen in the media, and I honestly had no strong feelings about him as a person either way. I walk out of this trial completely understanding why he has so many fans who practically deify him. Who are so strongly attracted to his kind spirit, huge heart, gentle nature, love of his children and mother, etc. I totally get it now.

    Every single witness who was questioned about whether they thought MJ was a good father (and almost every one who knew him closely was asked) sang endless praises about his love of his kids. If Prince's testimony is any indication, MJ was definitely a great father. The kid is bright, intelligent, caring, has great character and a great personality, and I truly believe MJ did a phenomenal job raising him in the few years he was able to. Honestly, every single juror came away feeling very positive about Michael Jackson as a person and father.

    I know there was concern about MJ's image being hurt because of this trial, and maybe to outside viewers it was because of some of the details that came out. But for us in the jury in that courtroom for all these months, we just grew more and more fond of him during the course of the trial.

    I'd like to say thank you to all the people I've seen here supporting us jurors in our decision, it really means a lot. I will be happy to answer anything I can about the trial if you'd like to ask and if I am able.
    Do we have to assume that this was really written by one of the jurors?

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