View Poll Results: Final verdict

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  • AEG liable

    80 48.19%
  • AEG not liable

    86 51.81%
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Thread: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

   
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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnie Blue View Post
    of postponing the shows,
    POSTPONING THE SHOWS! If only it was that easy.

    I remember, like it was yesterday, when it was announced that "A FEW" of the shows would have to be pushed back do to production matters.

    SOME of Michael's fans nearly lost their minds. Folks, or should I say, Michael's fans were calling him all out his name. The reaction to that news was swift AND it was ugly.

    Had he and/or they cancelled those shows there would have been a full out riot, in my opinion.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by jaydom7 View Post
    just giving facts..
    I'm sorry but what you are giving out is far from facts.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Please understand that for AEG to know the doctor was administering propofol is hindsight!

    They should have understood that when they inserted themselves into the doctor-patient relationship the doctor would be beholden to them and not the patient. This is the risk!

    The doctor became conflicted because he did what was necessary to receive payment. As a conflicted doctor Michael was to receive substandard care because the doctor was more concerned about satisfying his responsibility to AEG first and his patient second. You do not need to know what that care is!!

    The jury questions donot include the phrase "general medical care." The written contract only the doctor signed does.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Apple2 View Post
    And when they became concerned, I "thought" they held a meeting wherein Michael said "I know you're worried, but I'M FINE." And then Michael's personal physician tells them to basically "mind their own business."
    That's a good example of how unfit and incompetent Murray was. A good doctor would listen to Ortega who witnessed how unwell Michael was the day before. He would have made questions for signals, and the like, he would have shown concern and not tell him to shut up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Autumn II View Post
    Although they are supposed to focus on the law, EMOTION clearly plays a part in any judgments. That component would be very hard to predict. I think juries tend to rely heavily on common-sense, and not so much on the minutia presented in court by attorneys.
    That's my idea too. And that's why I think their verdict will be in favour of Jacksons, because even if they think MJ had some responsibility in bringing Murray, they will take into account that he paid the ultimate price, with his life,

    I don't like the way AEG treated MJ, I don't like how Phillips, particularly, decided in the end, in spite of HIS own doubts, not to pay more attention to Ortega's concerns. And if the jury sees that as liable, I would agree. However, what I have not fully understand in this trial is liability for the actions of Murray, who started buying propofol in April, as we all knew a long time ago. That's why it has been so conflicting (at least for me) to understand this trial (apart from the "hidden" intentions after the money and no restitution...) and why my feelings have even been contradictory.



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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by smoothlugar View Post
    That's a good example of how unfit and incompetent Murray was. A good doctor would listen to Ortega who witnessed how unwell Michael was the day before. He would have made questions for signals, and the like, he would have shown concern and not tell him to shut up.
    In my opinion, the unfit doctor was CO-SIGNED by his patient, when said patient said "I'm fine."

    I'm not so sure a "good" doctor would consult with somebody who was not his patient, i.e. Mr. Orgeta.

    In my further opinion, Mike basically deaded the entire concern point when he said "I'm fine." He had everybody in the room, and he COULD have said "I'm NOT fine, I'm having a problem sleeping, I need help."

    Folks really need to stop talking like Michael wasn't even in the room when all of this was going down.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Bit worried they are watching TII...I'm not sure it will help much..... Now if the 'suppressed' footage was available, that would be a different matter .....

    I wonder if this means that they have got past the discussion of 'was Murray hired?', and they are working on 'how much compensation?' already.



    ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 31m
    This morning the jurors buzzed once asking for a Coke. Then they had another note, asking for 8 legal pads for writing and a ruler
    ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 33m
    Note 1: - 12 highlighters - 12 red pens - 12 black pens - video player - This Is It documentary - 12 copies independent contractor agreement
    Last edited by myosotis; 27-09-2013 at 06:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 33m
    The rule in this courtroom regarding the buzzes:
    1 buzz -- question
    2 buzzes -- verdict
    3 buzzes -- emergency

    ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 34m
    This morning the jurors buzzed once asking for a Coke. Then they had another note, asking for 8 legal pads for writing and a ruler.

    ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 36m
    Note 1:
    - 12 highlighters
    - 12 red pens
    - 12 black pens
    - video player
    - This Is It documentary
    - 12 copies independent contractor agreement

    ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 37m
    At 3:05 pm PT yesterday, jurors sent Note 1 asking:
    - 12 copies of the jury instruction
    - A large supply of post it notes

    ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 38m
    They chose the presiding juror yesterday and sent Note 1.

    ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 39m
    Good morning from the courthouse. First full day of jury deliberations under way. The jurors started working at 9:30 am PT today.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    In my opinion AEG wasn't out for getting Michael down... they were out for the money and didn't care enough... yep to me they are liable! But considering the Jacksons are out for the same and that's why in this trial... I can't care less how the jury will decide this honestly.
    But yeah in my personal view a company when doing contracts, doing the hiring, planing a project so many are dependent on with nothing more or less than their lives... yeah I think they should act more caring, more carefull, more diligent, more respectfull and less maniac like... simply because they do have responsibility. Then again that's maybe just me... *shrugs*
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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    In a lighter note, I'm a bit jealous of jurors. They are having a coke and watching TII

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubs View Post
    - 12 copies independent contractor agreement
    Independent contractor agreement?

    What EXACTLY is an "Independent contractor agreement"?

    Can somebody break that down for those of us who are not familiar with that term. Thank you.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tygger View Post
    [...] when they inserted themselves into the doctor-patient relationship [...]
    They were not inserting themselves into the doctor-patient relationship. Does your bank insert itself into a contract between you and someone else?
    AEG Live did what your bank does: payment through AEG Live (Michael must pay later) ~ payment through your bank (you must pay later)
    [Michael's tour contract with AEG Live about the concerts is the reason why they interacted with Michael (and obviously, if there was a doctor, you'd talk to him, too).]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tygger View Post
    The doctor became conflicted because he did what was necessary to receive payment. As a conflicted doctor Michael was to receive substandard care [...]
    There is no precedent that established a cash-stricken person would automatically provide substandard work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tygger View Post
    The jury questions donot include the phrase "general medical care." The written contract only the doctor signed does.
    The jury has to ask itself for what work exactly Murray was hired. The draft agreement(s) and any oral agreement are various versions of one and the same contract.
    As you, Tygger, can only go with the oral agreement theory (no final contract with MJ's signature and you don't want to go with the draft agreement, obviously because it explicitely states "general medical care"), you're facing this issue:
    If you want to assume an oral agreement that includes AEG Live as an employer(!), this agreement CANNOT differ from the "general medical care" specification without substantial evidence to suggest AEG Live hired Murray for "something else" - plaintiffs haven't provided any evidence to suggest this.



    Quote Originally Posted by Big Apple2 View Post
    Independent contractor agreement?

    What EXACTLY is an "Independent contractor agreement"?

    Can somebody break that down for those of us who are not familiar with that term. Thank you.
    An "independant contractor" is a person that does NOT only work for you but many other clients and has full control of his work - such as lawyers, doctors etc.
    Read more: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...ent+Contractor
    Last edited by Korgnex; 27-09-2013 at 06:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Mod note: Michael Jackson had an all white Jury in 2005 and was found not guilty of all charges. Race shouldn't be a factor in this case either. Im sure the Jury will decide based on evidence, not based on their race or nationality, the race of Jacksons or the race or nationality of the owners of AEG. Please move on.
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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Question No. 1
    Did AEG Live hire Murray?

    Yes / No


    IMO AEG was basically loaning MJ the $ to do the hiring, and IMO the language of the contract made that clear. The fact that MJ hired CM is shown by the evidence that CM was treating MJ prior to May 1st, the start date of the loan via AEG, and that MJ requested CM and came up with the 150k salary. Also the contract was unsigned and no $ was paid by AEG to CM for that reason. IMO the contract may have been changed prior to MJ signing it or even AEG for that matter if MJ changed anything in the draft that CM signed.

    Question No. 2
    Was Murray unfit or incompetent to perform the work for which he was hired?


    Yes / No

    CM was hired for general medical care, and when AEG asked why do you need a tour dr or this guy in particular,MJ told them that he was concerned re nutrition and dehydration issues when performing, as well as injuries. This was the conversation where MJ insisted that his 'machine" (body) was the key point on which the tour depended. MJ also refused to consider other drs in UK when AEG (RP) asked him to do that.

    Question No. 3
    Did AEG Live know or should it have known that Murray was unfit or incompetent and that this unfitness or incompetence created a particular risk to others?


    Yes / No

    This question is deceptive b/c at what point in time should AEG have suspected CM? Not IMO at the time given for a start date on the 'final' draft contract (May 1st), but should they have suspected it on 6/19? And if so, did they take proper steps to address that issue of MJ on the 19th.

    IMO this is an important point b/c KO was the main witness on the 19th (along with the guy who wrote that he had seen MJ deteriorate over the past weeks--Houghdahl), so no AEG exec witnessed that behavior, nor did they see the famous 'skinny" photo in a t-shirt. So how reliable was the info from KO and Houghdahl in the estimation of AEG execs? Was it enough for a meeting? Yes. Was it enough to make a conclusion to fire CM? Cancel the tour? Demand another dr? No. After the meeting, MJ had the great rehearsals, so it's understandable that AEG thought MJ might have had a flu or something to affect him on the 19th and that he got over it. Also re weight loss, autopsy said MJ's weight was within normal range.

    I don't know of course what the jury will do, but the fact the Panish came up with MJ having a 20% role in hiring is significant in that he recognized that there is no way AEG wanted CM, suggested CM, recommended CM, and they got involved in it reluctantly.
    Last edited by jamba; 27-09-2013 at 06:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    so is watching TII, good for Katherine or good for AEG??

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    Default Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Apple2 View Post
    Independent contractor agreement?

    What EXACTLY is an "Independent contractor agreement"?

    Can somebody break that down for those of us who are not familiar with that term. Thank you.
    Isn't it a copy of CM's contract?
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/158739657/...ne-23-Contract

    They want to read it, which is good. There they see with their very own eyes what was CM supposed to do.
    General medical care. And it only take 4 jurors to say no for 1 of 5 questions, then it is all over for plaintiffs.

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