The problems with Invincible

MAQ

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Ok so we know how this album got panned by almost every other critic - but most of them were concentrating more on his public persona than his music which is highly unprofessional.

Having said that, I find Invincible to be a sharp detraction from his previous music, which might have ticked off some fans - and even made some new ones. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Invincible, it's my third most favorite album (after Dangerous and HIStory) and I absolutely love it. However, there were some pretty obvious weaknesses in there.

I think, the average track length was a major weakness. Almost every other track played out too long and sucked away the whole punch (e.g Unbreakable, Privacy, 2000 watts). Some better songs should've made the cut (Shout, Xscape). Too many tracks (16) for a romance themed album. Threatened should've been the first track, it has a much better punch than Unbreakable imo. Michael should have added some, idk irregularities, like the way he laughed in Get On the Floor or beatboxing like he did in HIStory and Dangerous.

I think the major problem was the average track length. Even YRMW sounds a little tiring at the end.

So, guys, what do you think??
 
My problems are few with this album, but they are huge ones. For starters, the first three songs are exactly the same. Up-tempo beat, rapper and a little dance section at the end. Exactly the same. Also, too many ballads. Way too sappy. Vocally, he's on point. It's incredible. It's just the nature of the songs don't match up. Butterflies, Don't Walk Away for example are to me, classic MJ. He was back when he released those in my eyes. That's the Michael I love. 2,000 Watts, Cry and a couple more are just not 10/10 songs you'd expect from a Michael Jackson album. I still find it sad this is his last output to the world musically. He had incredible material at his fingertips, it just wasn't used for some reason.
 
Is there a problem with Invincible ???
 
Speaking of unreleased material, I find it a real shame that the record label didn't let him release "We've Had Enough". I think that would've been a better way to portray the message that "Cry" was trying to deliver.
 
I really think it's a bad album. For one, the music is largely generic. The only songs on it I feel are great are "Break of Dawn", "Butterflies", "Don't Walk Away", "Speechless", "Unbreakable" and "Whatever Happens". Everything else is mediocre. "2000 Watts", "Heartbreaker", the title track and "Threatened" all sound like generic *NSYNC-esque pop; compare them to *NSYNC's "Bringin' Da Noise" (2000), "Digital Get Down" (2000), "No Strings Attached" (2000), "Space Cowboy (Yippie-Yi-Yay)" (2000), "Celebrity" (2001), "Pop" (2001) and "The Game Is Over" (2001) and you should see the similarities. "Heartbreaker" also sounds like a generic song produced by Timbaland; compare it to "Pony" by Ginuwine (1996), "Beep Me 911" by Missy Elliott (1997), "Are You That Somebody?" by Aaliyah (1998), "Jigga What, Jigga Who (Originator 99)" by Jay-Z (1998), "Trippin'" by Total (1998) and "Snoop Dogg (What's My Name Pt. 2)" by Snoop Dogg (2000) and you should see the similarities. "Heaven Can Wait" sounds like VERY generic late 90s/early 2000s R&B ballad music (I don't feel like pulling up examples for this, though; too exhausted at the moment). "You Rock My World" sounds like generic late 90s/early 2000s R&B music produced by Rodney "Darkchild" and/or his brother Fred "Uncle Freddie" Jerkins III; compare it to "It's Not Right But It's Okay" by Whitney Houston (1998), "If You Had My Love" by Jennifer Lopez (1999), "Say My Name" by Destiny's Child (1999), "Sunshine" by Coko (1999), "He Wasn't Man Enough" by Toni Braxton (2000), "If I Told You That" by Whitney Houston (2000), "Get Down With Me" by Spice Girls (2000), "Holler" by Spice Girls (2000) and "Shining Star" (2000) by Backstreet Boys and you should see the similarities. "Wasting My Time" by Spice Girls (2000), which was produced by Darkchild's brother Fred "Uncle Freddie" Jerkins III who worked with Darkchild quite often, also sounds similar to "You Rock My World". "The Lost Children" and "You Are My Life" are way too sappy. "Cry" is a poorly written "Man In The Mirror" knock-off. And "Privacy" is another generic "attack the media" song; I got enough of this kind of angry music from Michael on HIStory.

Then, you have to factor in the horrible pacing. The first three tracks - "Unbreakable", "Heartbreaker" and "Invincible" all sound way too similar to each other; they're all uptempo, heavily produced grimy tracks featuring rappers and the same structure. And the latter half of the album is way too heavy on ballads. And at 77 minutes, the album is way too long. The album's just too problematic.
 
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I'll return for my own in-depth analysis at a later time. But first, a few possibly controversial comments:

The similarities between the three opening songs is far from one of the album's issues. They aren't nearly identical enough to pose a real problem. "Jam" sounding almost indistinguishable from "In the Closet" or "Dangerous" in terms of production - now that's an issue.

"We've Had Enough" shouldn't have been on the album. Simply my personal opinion. A fine song but far from one that I would say needs any huge exposure or attention. Now, "Beautiful Girl?" THAT should have been polished and released.

"Speechless," "Don't Walk Away" and "Whatever Happens" are the only songs on the album that really earned their release. Everything else is either good but unnecessary to Michael's catalog ("Butterflies," "Break of Dawn") or simply garbage ("Cry," "Privacy").
 
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Interesting. I think "We've Had Enough" was significantly better than "Cry" in terms of the power of getting its message across (the Michael way), at the very least.

Cry:
You can change the world (I can't do it by myself)
You can touch the sky (Gonna take somebody's help)
You're the chosen one (I'm gonna need some kind of sign)
If we all cry at the same time tonight

VS.

We've Had Enough:
There's nothing that can't be done, if we raise our voice as one...
They've gotta hear it from me
They've gotta hear it from you
They've gotta hear it from us
We can't take it
We've already had enough

Which one sounds more Michael to you? "We've Had Enough" fits well with one of the album's themes of fighting back against the attackers, setup by the introduction in "Unbreakable" and "Invincible", a reminder in the middle with "Privacy", and finally blasted in the notes of the ending track "Threatened".

To wrap this up, "We've Had Enough" was co-written by Michael. "Cry" wasn't written by Michael at all, but by R. Kelly.
 
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The similarities between the three opening songs is far from one of the album's issues. They aren't nearly identical enough to pose a real problem.

I disagree. They're all heavily produced, uptempo hip hop songs with the same structure. The structures for "Unbreakable", "Heartbreaker" and "Invincible" are all:

[INTRO]
[VERSE 1]
[PRE-CHORUS]
[CHORUS]
[VERSE 2]
[PRE-CHORUS]
[CHORUS]
[BRIDGE]
[RAP]
[CHORUS]
[OUTRO/BREAKDOWN]

Factor in how they all play back to back, and there's a big pacing issue.

"Speechless," "Don't Walk Away" and "Whatever Happens" are the only songs on the album that really earned their release. Everything else is either good but unnecessary to Michael's catalog ("Butterflies," "Break of Dawn") or simply garbage ("Cry," "Privacy").

"Break of Dawn" and "Butterflies" unnecessary to Michael's catalog? I hugely disagree. "Break of Dawn" almost sounds like R&B perfection and "Butterflies" is beautiful neo-soul.

To be honest, the only songs on Invincible that I feel are all-around great are "Break of Dawn" and "Whatever Happens". I think "Butterflies", "Don't Walk Away", "Speechless" and "Unbreakable" are great as well, but I could see why some people wouldn't like them. "Butterflies" may come off as generic R&B to some folk, "Don't Walk Away" may come off as bland to some folk, "Speechless" may come off as too sappy to some folk and "Unbreakable" may come off as too bloated to some folk. "Break of Dawn" and "Whatever Happens" are the only songs on Invincible that I'd recommend to practically anyone.
 
Don't walk away was and still is not a Michael Jackson song in terms of production, instrumentation and lyrics. It's soooo boring.

I absolutely love unbreakable, heartbreaker (one of his best songs ever, but the chorus is too repetitive), invincible, break of dawn, heaven can wait, butterflies, 2000 watts, whatever happens and threatened.

The rest of the album shouldn't be on it.

I guess everyone on this board will attack me now.

I am a huge fan of the 'shouting' vocal performance of MJ combined with state of the art production, I guess that's why Dangerous is his absolutely best album to me.
 
Lack of variety. This is Michael's first adult solo album where a lot of the songs sound too similar.

I don't know if it was more him holding back to stick it to Sony, or if certain people got control over the project, but a lot of the outtakes that were left off could have been polished and could have saved this album.
 
Don't walk away was and still is not a Michael Jackson song in terms of production, instrumentation and lyrics. It's soooo boring.

Then I guess Be Not Always is not either a Michael Jackson song or Much Too Soon.

I can say this, the outtakes are on a whole other level

Xscape
Place With No Name
We've Had Enough
Beautiful Girl
Fall Again
Hollywood Tonight
I Like The Way You Love Me
Cheater Reworked (Even though we haven't heard this yet)
Shout (with louder vocals)

Wow.
 
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Invincible deserved much more praise from the critics, that's for sure, but it's the only album in Mike's entire catalogue where there are a few songs I actually dislike. They are Privacy, You Are My Life and 2000 Watts.

Having said that, songs like Whatever Happens, Butterflies, Break of Dawn and Don't Walk Away are outstanding. I personally think something like Whatever Happens should have been released as a single. It's criminal that a song as good as that is largely unknown to most people except die hard MJ fans.
 
I always thought Invincible was too long, cut 4 or 5 songs from it. Also seemed to me that MJ's heart wasn't really in it. Just get it over and done with and it's one less thing I'm obliged to do for Sony. Songs like Privacy were rehashes of previous tunes and weren't close to being as good.
 
I like most of the album. I never really listen to it all the way through though. I never listen to Cry, I find it very boring. Whatever Happens is one of my favourite MJ songs though, along with Threatened. If it wasn't mastered so loud that it pierces the ears while listening I might listen to it more. I agree that it's shocking how good the outtakes are compared to what actually got on the album.
 
Here's a controversial comment

''Butterflies'' is the most overrated (within the fan base) and one of the most cheesy songs that Michael ever did. The love for this song always mind boggles me. It's my second least favorite song on Invincible. The only song I think is worse is ''Privacy''
 
Here's a controversial comment

''Butterflies'' is the most overrated (within the fan base) and one of the most cheesy songs that Michael ever did. The love for this song always mind boggles me. It's my second least favorite song on Invincible. The only song I think is worse is ''Privacy''

I don't think it's anything special either tbh. I don't listen to it that often.
 
The Lost Children is one, if not the most boring released song Michael composed.

The problem I have is that is the least sounding Michael album, (so is Off The Wall but in that one he began to take control over his solo career, while in Invincible already had all the experience in the world) he relied way too much in other composers and producers. Too many people involved for my taste and I agree it's too long and many of the outtakes are better songs than many of the official Invincible track list. It's not a bad album but Michael spoiled us with his 90's masterpieces, it's not his best one for his standards. It's probably speculation on my part but I've often thought he just released the album the way it is because it was part of his contract, he just wasn't there. I however applaud Michael for having the capacity of making a different album from his previous works every time.
 
Here's a controversial comment

''Butterflies'' is the most overrated (within the fan base) and one of the most cheesy songs that Michael ever did. The love for this song always mind boggles me. It's my second least favorite song on Invincible. The only song I think is worse is ''Privacy''

I think the reason why it gets praised so much is the vocal performance - which is indeed one of his best vocal moments ever
 
Am I the only one who thinks Cry and The Lost Children are really beautiful tracks - obviously not on the level of We've Had Enough or Earth Song, but still very pure and soulful. IMO the slow pacing of the album made it difficult for them to shine.
 
Then I guess Be Not Always is not either a Michael Jackson song or Much Too Soon.

I can say this, the outtakes are on a whole other level

Xscape
Place With No Name
We've Had Enough
Beautiful Girl
Fall Again
Hollywood Tonight
I Like The Way You Love Me
Cheater Reworked (Even though we haven't heard this yet)
Shout (with louder vocals)

Wow.
True.
 
Here's a controversial comment

''Butterflies'' is the most overrated (within the fan base) and one of the most cheesy songs that Michael ever did. The love for this song always mind boggles me. It's my second least favorite song on Invincible. The only song I think is worse is ''Privacy''

Butterflies isn't only appreciated by fans. In fact, that's probably the song from Invincible that I have seen the most appreciation for by non-fans or casuals.

Then I guess Be Not Always is not either a Michael Jackson song or Much Too Soon.

I can say this, the outtakes are on a whole other level

Xscape
Place With No Name
We've Had Enough
Beautiful Girl
Fall Again
Hollywood Tonight
I Like The Way You Love Me
Cheater Reworked (Even though we haven't heard this yet)
Shout (with louder vocals)

Wow.

Isn't Cheater a Bad outtake?


The problem I have is that is the least sounding Michael album, (so is Off The Wall but in that one he began to take control over his solo career, while in Invincible already had all the experience in the world) he relied way too much in other composers and producers. Too many people involved for my taste and I agree it's too long and many of the outtakes are better songs than many of the official Invincible track list. It's not a bad album but Michael spoiled us with his 90's masterpieces, it's not his best one for his standards. It's probably speculation on my part but I've often thought he just released the album the way it is because it was part of his contract, he just wasn't there. I however applaud Michael for having the capacity of making a different album from his previous works every time.

While I agree that Invincible is the least MJ sounding album I disagree with the side note that OTW is not MJ sounding. Three of its most important songs, including the lead single and biggest hit of it were written by MJ, so MJ very much had his stamp on and hand in that important and influential album. Yes, he has written more songs on his latter albums, but still he wrote most of the signature ones and most important ones on OTW as well. It's not just about quantity but also about quality. What I mean by that is that even though MJ wrote a couple of songs alone on Invincible as well (and obviously co-wrote even more) the songs that he has written by himself on Invincible weren't the most important songs of the album. They were just album tracks, while on OTW he pretty much wrote some of the most important songs that carried the album (with the exception of Rock with You).

Anyway, back to Invincible. I agree that the albums biggest problem is that it sounds generic, not very MJ-like as opposed to ALL of his other adult solo albums. Too many co-writers and co-producers were working on it and in the midst of that crowd the MJ sound somehow got lost. That's the biggest problem with it IMO.

But I feel Invincible has been discussed to death. It's like we have this thread here in every two weeks. :D
 
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IMWhizzle;4104413 said:
Don't walk away was and still is not a Michael Jackson song in terms of production, instrumentation and lyrics. It's soooo boring.

I absolutely love unbreakable, heartbreaker (one of his best songs ever, but the chorus is too repetitive), invincible, break of dawn, heaven can wait, butterflies, 2000 watts, whatever happens and threatened.

The rest of the album shouldn't be on it.

I guess everyone on this board will attack me now.

I am a huge fan of the 'shouting' vocal performance of MJ combined with state of the art production, I guess that's why Dangerous is his absolutely best album to me.

So, you reject half of the album while you had a problem (& you disagreed ‘by far’ with me) when I mentioned (some time ago in one of my threads) few unnecessary songs intros.

This is really funny.
 
I think the reason why it gets praised so much is the vocal performance - which is indeed one of his best vocal moments ever

The vocals on ''Butterflies'' are great, but it's the song itself I don't like.
 
Isn't Cheater a Bad outtake?

Yeah, but since that song was reworked specifically for invincible (with a added rap part by fats) I choose to include it in my list. And just going by how awesome the original cheater is it would probably have been the highlight of the album had it been included.
 
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I love the Invincible album because it's a MJ album - yes as a whole the album could have been cut shorter and tightened up! But I like that the songs are over produced as its makes it different to what MJ had done before.

Having said all that though I think I have listened to the Xscape album MORE times than the Invincible album which only came out last year .....so that says something.
 
It's just the least sounding Michael Jackson album by a million miles for me. The songs are good, but it's the first time that it seems that Michael went out of his way to sound like everything else that was out there at the time- and he succeeded. Invincible to me defines the early 2000's which was one of the worst eras of music ever for me personally. It sounds like a "Michael Jackson Sings...." album, apart from Privacy and acouple others.

While I feel like there was an organic evolution from one album to the next, the leap in sounds from HIStory/BOTDF was staggering.

MJ got it wrong with the producers of this album, and whoever else was advising him at this point. I love the album but it should have been a hell of a lot better.
 
I love the Invincible album because it's a MJ album - yes as a whole the album could have been cut shorter and tightened up! But I like that the songs are over produced as its makes it different to what MJ had done before.

Having said all that though I think I have listened to the Xscape album MORE times than the Invincible album which only came out last year .....so that says something.

Xscape is dope, but Invincible is far superior because of 6 or 7 splendid songs; Speechless, Don't Walk Away, Break of Dawn, Whatever Happens, You Rock My World, Threatened and maybe Unbreakable or Heartbreaker.
 
mj_frenzy;4104455 said:
So, you reject half of the album while you had a problem (& you disagreed ‘by far’ with me) when I mentioned (some time ago in one of my threads) few unnecessary songs intros.

This is really funny.
Did I mention intros? No.
 
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