I Am a Fan, But... (What Makes You Heretic Among Other Fans?)

[Michaels Lover]

- Many fans are quick to put Michael on this immortal pedestal and refuse to accept any sort of valid criticism over something in his career that some people might consider to be below par (as evident by many comments in this very thread). It's considered a complete sin if someone flat-out hates something, as well, as if everything is supposed to get a pass because it bears the Michael Jackson brand, which isn't how the world works.

- Off the Wall is incredibly overrated and stands as Michael's second weakest album on various levels.

- Both the History tour and the 30th anniversary special are dumpster fires and should never be commercially released.

- "Don't Walk Away" is better than "She's Out of My Life".

- Everything about This Is It gives the impression that the actual show would have been underwhelming at best.

- As excellent as it is, Dangerous rambles for far too long on certain tracks and is in drastic need of a shortened edit.

- Michael needed to stop pussyfooting around circa 2008 and actually drop an album. The wave of revived public interest that "Hold My Hand" ignited was the perfect opportunity to at the very least release a single.

- The vast majority of Michael's performances were calculated to the beat, and therefore don't vary all that much date to date. He was without doubt the greatest live performer to ever grace the stage, but I have zero interest in seeing any unreleased shows.

that's your opinion, those are not facts. just because someone disagrees, does not mean that they are putting him on an "immortal pedestal", or that they "refuse to accept any sort of valid criticism", or anything else you said in the first part of your post

[Tony R]

that's your opinion, those are not facts. just because someone disagrees, does not mean that they are putting him on an "immortal pedestal", or that they "refuse to accept any sort of valid criticism", or anything else you said in the first part of your post

I don't agree with his separate points (except the History tours/MSG one) but the sentiment of the post is spot on.

[lubyss]

I don´t really know purpose of this thread, cause I don´t understand the thread name... But here is my onest oppinion...

1) CRY is the worst song Michael ever recorded
2) I don´t listen to the Jackson 5 or The Jacksons (exept torture) and even some those songs are better than Cry.
3) We´ve had enough is much better than Heal The World... It is the best song with the msg.
4) I accept Michael just like as a solo artist.
5) OTW is the worst album.
6) Invincible is the best album, but I had too much ballads and so few AU, HOW and HeeHees...

[AlwaysThere]

that's your opinion, those are not facts. just because someone disagrees, does not mean that they are putting him on an "immortal pedestal", or that they "refuse to accept any sort of valid criticism", or anything else you said in the first part of your post

Everything in that post is my personal opinion except for the one you are speaking of. I would say that is a fact.

This doesn't apply for every fan on this forum, but there are a substantial number of folks that leap at the throats of whoever may say something negative about Michael, and the reasoning always implies that they've raised him to a God-like status incapable of wrong.

"Michael worked so hard on [insert complaint here] and you shouldn't hate it!"
"Just because it isn't as good as his other [insert comparison here] doesn't mean it isn't good!"
"How could you say something like that about Michael? He would be sickened by this hate!"

I see these complaints more often than anything else.

I've expressed my complete and utter hatred for certain things in Michael's career and I've had people flat-out flip out because of it. There's very little respectful debate or challenging my reasoning, it's an immediate leap to "YOU ARE SO WRONG!"

Don't get me wrong, there are some great people on here. I've had a ton of honest, fun (if sometimes heated) discussions with Tony R and respect77 and SmoothGangsta and many others. But there is that sorry few that don't accept negative opinions.

[SmoothMJ]

Anybody who comes out with "Off The Wall is incredibly overrated" is immediately put on the 'has got sh1t for brains' list.

Sorry. I can't take that sort of nonsense seriously.

[SmoothMJ]

Also, 'Michael should have not lived his life as he wanted and changed who he was', because of bullsh1te lies? WTF is that nonsense?

It seems time that some people wanted MJ to change his lifestyle to make life easier for themselves as 'fans'. Hmmmm.

I didn't love everything that MJ did equally but, "complete And utter hatred"? Or wanting MJ to change his caring attitude and lifestyle to suit me and the rabid media?

Some people seem to enjoy this thread a little more than 'natural' for me. That's obvious from some of the language used.

[SmoothGangsta]

^I was waiting on someone to come in here and act exactly how we're describing, it's always good when someone comes right along and proves your point.

[SmoothGangsta]

I'm sorry but we do live in the real world, MJ was an adult, he had been accused of child molestation, so it was up to him to put precautions in place so it didn't happen again, and he did nothing.

[SmoothGangsta]

Anybody who comes out with "Off The Wall is incredibly overrated" is immediately put on the 'has got sh1t for brains' list.
Sorry. I can't take that sort of nonsense seriously.

And I can't take anything you say seriously after this comment.

[LindavG]

I'm sorry but we do live in the real world, MJ was an adult, he had been accused of child molestation, so it was up to him to put precautions in place so it didn't happen again, and he did nothing.

What makes you think he did nothing? We don't know what kind of precautions Michael took in his private life. I remember from the Cascio book that since the first allegations, Michael made sure there was another adult in the room whenever a child asked him if they could stay in his bedroom, for example. I think the allegations affected his trust and made him more cautious around people as well. Do I think Michael should have stopped associating with children publicly or stopped showing interest in childlike things? Hell no. That was who Michael was and there was nothing wrong with it. If people call him eccentric or weird for it, let them. At some point I think Michael just stopped caring what people said about him.

[Nite Line]

MJ's family gets a lot of hate from some fans for no apparent reason.

Michael should learnt from the experience of 93 allegations and should have never put himself in the position to be taken advantage of again. But unfortunately he didn't learn hence the 2003 allegations and 2005 trial. I felt he was incredibly naive there.

I think Michael should have been honest about his skin disease from the very beginning. He shouldn't have waited till 1993 when he was completely white to tell the whole world about vitiligo. He should have opened up about his skin condition when he first contracted the disease because I do feel that a lot of negative media in the 80s generated from Michael's changing skin condition. He shouldn't have given the media the opportunity to bash him for changing his skin colour.

[Girl]

I was going to remind people about the Cascio book and the need for adult witnesses. Thanks for doing that Linda Also, the fact that Michael had his own cameras during the shooting of the Bashir piece also proves that he wasn't quite as naive as thought. So to say that he did nothing is not accurate. I've always thought that the fact he carried on with his message on behalf of children during his Oxford and Carnegie Hall speeches in 2001 was very brave of him. He hadn't done anything wrong, so it was only right for him to carry on with the cause closest to his heart.

Having said all of the above, I do think Michael could have been a bit more careful about whom he allowed near him. I think many people who care about Michael regret deeply that his generosity allowed him to be entrapped by highly questionable surrogate families. After 1993 no family like the Arvizos had any business being anywhere near him. I honestly don't think his advocacy on behalf of children's rights and the sincerity of his efforts for cancer stricken kids would have been any less poignant if he hadn't allowed those people in the private quarters of Neverland. He could have saved himself, the family and everyone who believed in him all the grief of the November 2003-June 2005 period. Of course it is easy to say that in hindsight. At least that dreadful time ended with the liberation which came from them 14 non guilty verdicts. It sad to see that may have been one of the last times when the truth about Michael ever prevailed.

On a far less serious note now, here's a picture which fits very well with the title of this thread



And btw of the essence of the thread and heretical confessions - I stiiiiill don't get the big hoopla over Billie Jean, nor am I a real fan of the Vogue 2007 photo shoot clothes or the costumes which were designed for the TII shows.

I would also hope that neither my loyalty for Michael nor the level of my intelligence depend on my perception of the OTW album. Although I sincerely appreciate some of its cuts, I believe the lyrical content to be far too limited, especially when considering the rest of Michael's catalog. I am convinced the fact that I got to hear of Michael during the Dangerous times makes me biased towards his output from that time.

But even beyond it, I still find his 90s and 00s work far more artistically engaging than the things from the 70s and 80s. I think everything from the moonwalk, to the Thriller routine to Billie Jean and OTW belong to the entertainment side of Michael's career. I believe his exploration of social and political issues starting with Dangerous and his most artistic reply to the allegations on HIStory are far more interesting. But again, that's just me.........

[AlwaysThere]

There were times when unfortunately Michael was almost asking for controversy to brew.

Discussing sleeping arrangements and holding the hand of a child as in Living With Michael Jackson was an absolutely foolish decision that ultimately led to a recollection of the 1993 incident, which nobody needed. The public refused to believe his vitiligo because he decided to not mention his lightening skin tone for seven years after it became noticeable, and even still refuse to believe it despite it being prominent in his autopsy report.

He didn't make smart decisions, to put it bluntly.

Anybody who comes out with "Off The Wall is incredibly overrated" is immediately put on the 'has got sh1t for brains' list.

Sorry. I can't take that sort of nonsense seriously.

Not sure why you have to call that opinion "nonsense" simply because it doesn't match yours...?

Off the Wall is by no means a bad album. I would never make that claim. It is rightfully one of the strongest and most impressive albums ever recorded and deserves to be placed among the all-time greats.

But I simply feel as though it pales in comparison to what came afterwards.

It doesn't scream "incredible" quite as loud as his other albums do. Even History, flaws and all, still manages to put forward a plethora of tracks that just astound me in every way, whether it be from the production or the vocals or the songwriting or all three.

Those of my close friends who have listened to Off the Wall tracks always considered Michael a great pop artist. The moment I played them anything off Dangerous or Blood on the Dance Floor, they dropped "pop" from that statement.

The only album that fares worse on my list is Invincible, which in general is a mixed back of excellency and pedestrianism.

[SmoothGangsta]

What makes you think he did nothing? We don't know what kind of precautions Michael took in his private life. I remember from the Cascio book that since the first allegations, Michael made sure there was another adult in the room whenever a child asked him if they could stay in his bedroom, for example. I think the allegations affected his trust and made him more cautious around people as well. Do I think Michael should have stopped associating with children publicly or stopped showing interest in childlike things? Hell no. That was who Michael was and there was nothing wrong with it. If people call him eccentric or weird for it, let them. At some point I think Michael just stopped caring what people said about him.

There should have never been another child in his bedroom after those first allegations, period. I'm not talking about him being interested in childlike things, I'm talking about the fact he continued to have children sleep in his bedroom. It doesn't matter if there was another person there or not, he shouldn't have been doing it at all. Serious, potentially life ruining accusations and he continued to do it anyway.

[Tony R]

Xscape is better than Invincible