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Thread: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

   
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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    Here is a quick photo comparison I have made, as people in this forum are correct in stating I have proved no 'evidence' and was merely speculating:



    In the first photo, from the Bad Era, Michael himself claims he has had 2 rhinoplasties and a cleft put into his chin (these are visible), and to some MJ fans the only surgeries he had.

    If we look to the photo on the right, circa 2003*, Michael's nose is thinner, his lip shape is different, his eyes/eyelids are drooping slightly, his eyelashes are more prominent, and the shape of his chin extremely exaggerated (perhaps due to weight loss, I don't know if this would be the case as I've never seen such a prominent jaw on somebody before).

    With all these notable differences between the Bad Era (where he's had about 3 surgeries) and 00's Michael, I think we can see he definitely had more.

    (I felt like the Daily Mail writing this - again not trying to be over-analytical, but I think this comparison shows he definitely had more than 3 surgeries as these are already apparent in the left photo, but his face looks further altered on the right).

    *Got the date wrong, thankyou Snow White luvs Peter Pan
    Last edited by prettyyoungthaang; 13-07-2016 at 02:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    Quote Originally Posted by analogue View Post
    But I do think that the straight hair he had during most of the 00's didn't do him any favors. He looks much better with the curls
    Definitely. Apart from personal subjective disagreements with the style of it, it definitely changed the shape/look of his face heavily. That combined with the drastic change in skin colour and drastic weight changes exaggerated his changes to his face. Ignore the skin colour and remove the hair, similar lighting too and you'll notice it's not as much as people think.

    I think I came to the conclusion he had about... 6? surgeries.

    1. Late 70s when he broke his nose. Slimmed it a bit.
    2. Another right around the Thriller era. Basically the nose he had in the Thriller era.
    3. Another in the Bad era (around this time came the "pinned" look, as I like to call it, also the tip started to point more up?)
    4. Introduce the cleft.
    5. Seems like he got it done sometime around HIStory as well?
    6. Sometime in the late 90s, or around the turn of the century. It's extremely noticeable in the YRMW video.

    I don't think he got anymore done after that. He definitely lied in the LWMJ, Bashir straight up asks him if he's only had one surgery, to which Michael replies "two, as far as I can remember". He doesn't distinguish between cosmetic/reconstructive surgery, he just straight up asks about surgeries as a whole. Of course he has a right to lie though, who here hasn't lied about their medical history to strangers?

    As for people speculating, we can all say "who cares" "it's his body he can do what he wants" and hey I agree. In an ideal world, we'd all see it that way. Realistically though, people don't see it so much the other way. Most people aren't aware of the effects of vitiligo, let alone believed it existed back in the 1990s. The effects of lupus? How you're not meant to have plastic surgery or something when effected by lupus? (Of course I'm aware that MJ was diagnosed years after his first surgery). Realistically, people aren't going to know this and I don't think it's necesserily fair to expect them to. I didn't even have a clue lupus effected MJs skin/surgeries that badly, let alone that he had lupus until many, many years after I became a fan. I think Michael should've taken that opportunity to discuss the effect of lupus on his nose at that point in LWMJ (I see barbee talks about on Page 1, so I'll go have a read about that after this).

    What I get from most people is not that they're intentionally trying to shit on MJ, but more so they're just not aware of the effects his medical conditions had on his skin. Everyone I've told about the effects of lupus on his skin, how he was mocked about his skin during puberty and how father mocked his nose, only for the world to keep mocking his nose; they all begin to understand what Michael went through and sympathise with him. I guess what I'm trying to say is, people don't intentionally want to shit over MJ, they just don't possess the knowledge to properly understand him and honestly I can't entirely blame them. He was a very private man (understandably), so the knowledge to actually understand him is quite hard to get in the first place. You try to google MJ's medical history and you're going to get a looooooot of false crap.

    That's why MJ himself talking about it could've helped immensely. It's common knowledge now that he had a pigment destroying condition and I think a large reason is because he spoke out about it a few times. Most people accept that. If Michael spoke out about the effects lupus has had on his surgeries, I think it would've helped generate a lot more sympathy and understanding on a topic that is hardly common knowledge. Watching his interview with Bashir, while I'm aware of it's ethical issues as a documentary, MJ doesn't exactly make a great case for himself. He outright denies any changes for example to his lips, I do believe he had done something to his lips for example to make them appear as red as they did once his conditions took heavy effect. I feel if he was more open on the effects his conditions had on his skin and the work he had done to help minimalise damage, it would've worked much better in his favour. Of course, this begs the question why should he even discuss his personal medical history on international television. He's a human being and has the right to privacy... and I agree. He should have the right to keep it to himself, but that's the problem with being one of the most famous people in the world, there's huge pros and cons to every decision. There's no winning.

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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    That picture on right was taken in 2003, not 2008. When people age, it's a fact they lose volume/fat on the cheeks, it may be the reason why his chin looks more prominent. And lupus messed up with his lips, most of the surgeries he had were reconstructive.

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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    The change here isn't THAT drastic.


    And why did he look more like his Dangerous era self during This Is It? (The obvious difference being that he looked older). Was it really the change of hairstyle that did it, or did he have surgery to get closer to the way he looked in the Dangerous era? What ever he did, he looked good there.
    Last edited by analogue; 13-07-2016 at 05:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    Definitely. Apart from personal subjective disagreements with the style of it, it definitely changed the shape/look of his face heavily. That combined with the drastic change in skin colour and drastic weight changes exaggerated his changes to his face. Ignore the skin colour and remove the hair, similar lighting too and you'll notice it's not as much as people think.

    I think I came to the conclusion he had about... 6? surgeries.

    1. Late 70s when he broke his nose. Slimmed it a bit.
    2. Another right around the Thriller era. Basically the nose he had in the Thriller era.
    3. Another in the Bad era (around this time came the "pinned" look, as I like to call it, also the tip started to point more up?)
    4. Introduce the cleft.
    5. Seems like he got it done sometime around HIStory as well?
    6. Sometime in the late 90s, or around the turn of the century. It's extremely noticeable in the YRMW video.

    I don't think he got anymore done after that. He definitely lied in the LWMJ, Bashir straight up asks him if he's only had one surgery, to which Michael replies "two, as far as I can remember". He doesn't distinguish between cosmetic/reconstructive surgery, he just straight up asks about surgeries as a whole. Of course he has a right to lie though, who here hasn't lied about their medical history to strangers?

    As for people speculating, we can all say "who cares" "it's his body he can do what he wants" and hey I agree. In an ideal world, we'd all see it that way. Realistically though, people don't see it so much the other way. Most people aren't aware of the effects of vitiligo, let alone believed it existed back in the 1990s. The effects of lupus? How you're not meant to have plastic surgery or something when effected by lupus? (Of course I'm aware that MJ was diagnosed years after his first surgery). Realistically, people aren't going to know this and I don't think it's necesserily fair to expect them to. I didn't even have a clue lupus effected MJs skin/surgeries that badly, let alone that he had lupus until many, many years after I became a fan. I think Michael should've taken that opportunity to discuss the effect of lupus on his nose at that point in LWMJ (I see barbee talks about on Page 1, so I'll go have a read about that after this).

    What I get from most people is not that they're intentionally trying to shit on MJ, but more so they're just not aware of the effects his medical conditions had on his skin. Everyone I've told about the effects of lupus on his skin, how he was mocked about his skin during puberty and how father mocked his nose, only for the world to keep mocking his nose; they all begin to understand what Michael went through and sympathise with him. I guess what I'm trying to say is, people don't intentionally want to shit over MJ, they just don't possess the knowledge to properly understand him and honestly I can't entirely blame them. He was a very private man (understandably), so the knowledge to actually understand him is quite hard to get in the first place. You try to google MJ's medical history and you're going to get a looooooot of false crap.

    That's why MJ himself talking about it could've helped immensely. It's common knowledge now that he had a pigment destroying condition and I think a large reason is because he spoke out about it a few times. Most people accept that. If Michael spoke out about the effects lupus has had on his surgeries, I think it would've helped generate a lot more sympathy and understanding on a topic that is hardly common knowledge. Watching his interview with Bashir, while I'm aware of it's ethical issues as a documentary, MJ doesn't exactly make a great case for himself. He outright denies any changes for example to his lips, I do believe he had done something to his lips for example to make them appear as red as they did once his conditions took heavy effect. I feel if he was more open on the effects his conditions had on his skin and the work he had done to help minimalise damage, it would've worked much better in his favour. Of course, this begs the question why should he even discuss his personal medical history on international television. He's a human being and has the right to privacy... and I agree. He should have the right to keep it to himself, but that's the problem with being one of the most famous people in the world, there's huge pros and cons to every decision. There's no winning.
    It was hard for MJ, because even after stating he had vitiligo and its appearance in his autopsy report, I still come across people who think he bleached his skin, so if he mentioned his lupus condition or not, his appearance still would've been scrutinised. I just think the amount of surgery he had, even if not as much as the media likes to say, people could've believed he had these conditions more if his face didn't change so drastically (Off The Wall - 00's). And in the LWMJ documentary when he does deny most of his surgery it does seem he is trying to hide it, but perhaps as I mentioned before he already had so much attention being paid to his changing appearance, whatever he said would've neither helped nor hindered this.

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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    Quote Originally Posted by analogue View Post
    So, why did he look more like his Dangerous era self during This Is It? (The obvious difference being that he looked older). Was it really the change of hairstyle that did it, or did he have surgery to get closer to the way he looked in the Dangerous era? What ever he did, he looked good there.
    I think definitely the change of hairstyle, his mascara/eyelashes seemed to shorten again (which I think quite changed the look of his eyes), and maybe he gained some weight again. But I think he still might've had a nose surgery after Dangerous or maybe his previous rhinoplasty was losing it's 'smoothness', as he doesn't look identical to Dangerous but more similar than perhaps 2003.

    "Some people misunderstand me, but that's because they don't know me at all."

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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    Michael has admitted to two nose jobs and a cleft put into his chin... I think it is fair to say yes of course he lied!! Do I think he changed as much as the media says no... Primarily his nose was worked on more than twice for sure.. His autopsy backs that up fairly well..

    Michaels age and weight change changed his face also... the more "sunk in' his cheeks were the more predominant his 'Jackson' cheek bones would be apparent.. Also if it is true he had ballooning done for his scalp that would change the face quit a bit..


    but again, yes he lied..
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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    Quote Originally Posted by barbee0715 View Post
    I checked the rules an this doesn't seem to be a taboo subject, but it seems to me that it would be better over in the Trials and Tribulations section-mainly because the autoimmune diseases Michael had were trials and tribulations that he had to deal with.

    I'm one of those people who did NOT notice the change in his nose when he did the Walt Disney 25 special or Diana's show-I remember asking my mother what did Michael do to himself-because he looked as gorgeous as he did when he was a little boy, happy and beaming, his big brown eyes enormous, and I decided it was that adorable new haircut with the soft curls. First time I'd seen him without the afro, and now we've actually seen the pictures of him in the salon getting his hair cut in the picture section. So darn cute. The next time I noticed a change was Motown 25-and again, I saw that gorgeous jheri curl and the eye make up-he was just ravishingly beautiful. Did NOT notice the new nose job. Again in BAD-I didn't notice the cleft, or the skin change-I did notice his hair change and that he was as sexy as hell-he also had officially grown up then-as had I-he was no longer innocently and naively sexy-he was intentionally, dangerously sexy.

    It's my opinion that Michael is not lying about the two nose jobs and the cleft in his chin-he had corrective surgery with the first nose job-and I honestly think that all of the other surgeries he had were RECONSTRUCTIVE because discoid lupus goes after your skin and soft tissues and it will attack places that you had surgery first-just like it attacked his scalp-

    one of the few shows I watched during the trial was a Fox news reporter who had consulted a plastic surgeon and they were looking at pictures of Michael-and they were of course, trying to villify him and talk about all of these multiple surgeries-and I jumped up to change the channel when the doctor started talking about discoid lupus, what it can do to your face, and he thought any surgeries Michael might have had was because he was trying to look like a normal guy. NOT the answer Fox was looking for, but it certainly sounded credible to me. I've seen horrendous pictures of what discoid lupus can do to your face on the internet in the last few years-it's not just red butterfly rashes-

    And I think Michael did not consider any corrective or reconstructive surgery for damage to be a cosmetic elective surgery. I don't either.

    The only other thing I noticed during the trial and after (besides the straight hair that I did not like at all and was not flattering) was that his mouth seemed to be frozen and he couldn't smile the way he used to-I have a feeling that one of the reconstructive surgeries went awry, and so his upper lip was frozen. That, too, went away after his visits to Klein-so even though Klein went off the deep end later, he still had the gift of non-invasively fixing his patients.

    And no, I don't think he had BDO-even though his mother parroted that in a doc I saw-sometimes she just says things she hears, and I don't understand why she does that. But I think Michael kept the severity of his real medical conditions really private and probably didn't even confide in her. So, no lies there-two nose jobs and the dimple in his chin-and everything else was reconstructive or corrective because of an ugly disease and flat out none of our business.


    Oh, edit to add-I've just recently noticed that all of the Jacksons have had nose jobs-the girls had them early, but the brothers had them before the Victory tour-but all of them were fortunate not to have lupus. I think if Michael had known he was going to get lupus later on and what it could do, he never would have considered cosmetic surgery in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by etoile 37 View Post
    This man who saw Michael's medical records confirmed that most of his surgeries were reconstructive. So like Barbee0715, I don't believe Michael lied when he said he had two surgeries. He simply didn't count reconstructive surgeries because, after all, their purpose was not to change the shape of his nose. And I can understand why he didn't tell the world that he had reconstructive surgeries because of lupus. He explained to us that the reason his skin color changed was because of vitiligo, and people called him a liar. How could he explain to us that his nose surgeries were because of lupus? People would have called him a liar again...

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    It cannot be denied that MJ’s skin disease (vitiligo, lupus) had started to afflict him years before his 1993 confession during the interview with Oprah Winfrey.

    Rather than calling MJ a liar, people (& media) should first (& of their own accord) try to crosscheck certain facts, especially when it comes to sensitive medical issues, in order to arrive to correct conclusions.

    For example, when MJ visited Perth (Australia) in 1985, with a view to baying the ATV music catalogue from the Australian tycoon Robert Holmes à Court, he asked from his wife (Janet Holmes à Court) to visit together some local bookstores.

    Janet Holmes à Court remembers vividly that incident:

    He [MJ] wanted me to take him to an antique bookshop where he purchased two medical textbooks with the most horrendously graphic drawings. I think they must have been nineteenth century medical textbooks about skin disease…

    Crosschecking certain facts with other people’s quotes (Janet Holmes à Court, for example) should leave no room for doubt even for the very disbelieving ones.

    Last but not least, I suppose almost anyone with such horrible skin diseases will try to resort to reconstructive plastic surgeries. I find nothing reprehensible here, nor has the whole world to be notified (through interviews, autobiographical books, etc) about the exact number of such surgeries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snow White luvs Peter Pan View Post
    That picture on right was taken in 2003, not 2008. When people age, it's a fact they lose volume/fat on the cheeks, it may be the reason why his chin looks more prominent. And lupus messed up with his lips, most of the surgeries he had were reconstructive.
    exactly! you 4 said it so well. it is really sad to see that even fans (others who have posted here), are quick to jump to conclusions and judge based on tabloid trash. and comparing photos of him doesn't "prove" that he had plastic surgery, here, there and everywhere. like I said, educate yourself on the subject. when I found out he had lupus, I had no idea what it was, and I've spend hours and hours on reading about it, what it does to your body, and there were a lot of things about his appearance that finally made sense, that I have been wondering about for years and years, why the hell he has that. like, the red cheeks (that's butterfly rash from lupus). the thinning of his hair, especially at the front. one of the symptoms of lupus is hair thinning. moon face is something you get for the medicine you take from lupus. and it DOES change your face dramatically. and he had reconstructive surgery because of the lupus. there are other reasons your face can change than plastic surgery. but people don't see beyond that, because they are so convinced that what they read is true. "because his face changed, it automatically means he had plastic surgeries, because that's what I've read." come on? really? fans should know better than to let themselves get manipulated by the media

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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    I really wish Michael would have said ''It's none of your business'' to the people who asked him how much surgery he had.

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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow White luvs Peter Pan View Post
    When people age, it's a fact they lose volume/fat on the cheeks, it may be the reason why his chin looks more prominent. And lupus messed up with his lips, most of the surgeries he had were reconstructive.
    The lips also get thinner as we age. My father's lips look totally different now compared to 20 years ago, and he never had surgery.

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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    ^ Well Mikes lips are different.. he changed them, simple put, the changed a lot.. and parts tattooed to change shape
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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    And the "thinning hair" is a style choice. Black women do that a lot. They call them edges or baby hair. That's not Lupus.

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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    I appreciate this full and serious discussion.
    But for me any question ´did he lie about his surgeries or not?´ was never an idea. It was not Michaels business to justify his personal actions to anyone. Through all the years I always thought to myself and discussed it the same way with any people who criticized Michael for his changing appearances over the years: that is his own private thing! I´m sure he had for himself several serious reasons to do these surgeries. But, as analogue said she wished he would have said ´it´s none of your business´. But did Michael really talk about that so much? No. He did not. There were really very less statements about it from himself. And that was totally okay!!! The media was obsessed with the topic and wrote about it all the time, over years, all around the world. The haters talked about it. People tried to pump him in their interviews with their slanders and their TV-quotes and their selfish fame in their minds, whatever... When Michael answered Bashir - I heard and saw in his response pure irony. No lie. I am sure Michael had his opinions about those interviewers. And I always wanted that he would be respected for all what he told the public.

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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJam View Post
    Kinda hard to believe that these two photos were only two years apart:

    Mind rehosting the second image?

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    Default Re: Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

    Quote Originally Posted by HIStoric View Post
    Mind rehosting the second image?
    Yes, use imgur it lasts a while

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