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Thread: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

   
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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    Quote Originally Posted by aazzaabb View Post
    What are the criteria? For me, an MJ classic has to do a number of things, A: It's got to be melodically, vocally and production wise, sonically brilliant. DSTYGE has all of those qualities. B: it's got to be embedded into popular culture and resonate with a wide audience, and this thing could be played anywhere in the world and people would get up and dance or bop along to it. C: It has to defy all genres, be unique and be simply recognised as Michael Jackson. I think to really get a sense of its classic status you've got to put into context what it was like when it was released and get a sense of how much of a game changer it was for MJ and hint at what was to come, also hear it at a party or a club and witness the reaction to it.

    Speechless is a great song, one of my favourites but it's not a classic in that it didn't effect or become part of the pop-culture like DSTYGE did. Black Or White is the perfect example of a post Quincy classic in that it also did all the above, perhaps not as important as DSTYGE, but it also transcended pop culture and defied genres in that it is intrinsically Michael Jackson.
    I hear what you're saying but going by that logic songs like Will You Be There, Who Is it, Earth Song, Stranger In Moscow and They Don't Care About US cannot be considered classics because none of those songs became part of pop culture. It's kinda funny, because songs that becomes part of pop culture are songs that the average/casual listeners listens to right? What that basically means is that the general audience dictates what songs becomes classics.. The mainstream audience has a tendency to usually want to hear fluffy, easy to grasp, melodic music. Now there is nothing wrong with that at all but the same audience would not respond well to the complexity of a song like Is It Scary or Little Susie which in effect renders it impossible for the afformentioned songs to ever have a chance to become part of pop culture and become "classics".

    I agree with your point A though.

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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    Are you serious? Of course! And yes, not only based on popularity. It's a masterpiece!

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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themidwestcowboy View Post
    I hear what you're saying but going by that logic songs like Will You Be There, Who Is it, Earth Song, Stranger In Moscow and They Don't Care About US cannot be considered classics because none of those songs became part of pop culture. It's kinda funny, because songs that becomes part of pop culture are songs that the average/casual listeners listens to right? What that basically means is that the general audience dictates what songs becomes classics.. The mainstream audience has a tendency to usually want to hear fluffy, easy to grasp, melodic music. Now there is nothing wrong with that at all but the same audience would not respond well to the complexity of a song like Is It Scary or Little Susie which in effect renders it impossible for the afformentioned songs to ever have a chance to become part of pop culture and become "classics".

    I agree with your point A though.
    I think the the term "classic" does carry in itself a certain level of popularity. Of course, there are songs that are brilliant (often more brilliant than popular songs) but aren't that popular - then just call them brilliant songs, but I am not sure they are classics. I think a classic does have to have a certain level of relevance in general popular culture.

    They Don't Care About US cannot be considered classics because none of those songs became part of pop culture
    I think TDCAU actually did. While it wasn't that popular in the US when it came out (IMO mainly because of the hostile media treatment of it) but it did slowly become a classic since. I mean people regularly play it at protests - such as Black Lives Matter and it is MJ's second most viewed video on YouTube, only after Thriller. How is it not a part of pop culture then?

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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    Quote Originally Posted by respect77 View Post
    I think TDCAU actually did. While it wasn't that popular in the US when it came out (IMO mainly because of the hostile media treatment of it) but it did slowly become a classic since. I mean people regularly play it at protests - such as Black Lives Matter and it is MJ's second most viewed video on YouTube, only after Thriller. How is it not a part of pop culture then?
    Yeah, if it wasn't a part of pop culture, it is now. Not as much as some of his other HUGE songs like Billie Jean, but a part nonetheless.

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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    it's always about point of reference and who's asking the question and who's answering the question

    Don't Stop Til You Get Enough was a instant smash the moment it was released

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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themidwestcowboy View Post
    I hear what you're saying but going by that logic songs like Will You Be There, Who Is it, Earth Song, Stranger In Moscow and They Don't Care About US cannot be considered classics because none of those songs became part of pop culture. It's kinda funny, because songs that becomes part of pop culture are songs that the average/casual listeners listens to right? What that basically means is that the general audience dictates what songs becomes classics.. The mainstream audience has a tendency to usually want to hear fluffy, easy to grasp, melodic music. Now there is nothing wrong with that at all but the same audience would not respond well to the complexity of a song like Is It Scary or Little Susie which in effect renders it impossible for the afformentioned songs to ever have a chance to become part of pop culture and become "classics".

    I agree with your point A though.
    I think a classic is something that's usually quantified in retrospect. I don't think it's that the public dictates what becomes a classic, but the effect the song has on the public and how they react. I would say Earth Song and TDCAU can be considered classics in retrospect; Earth Song was the Christmas number one in my part of the world and the music video is somewhat iconic, there's also a certain amount of notoriety to it given the Brit Awards "Jesus" performance and the public backlash, but it was also presented as the centrepiece and MJ's overall message to the world in This Is It; the most successful music documentary of all time.

    As Respect pointed out, TDCAU has become the go-to anthem for Black Lives Matter; one of the biggest cultural movements in modern times. It was also part of This Is It so even before Black Lives Matter it had reached a universal audience, at the very least it had been received by an audience, not to mention it was performed as part of the HIStory tour and came with it's own controversy surrounding some of the lyrics. It also had the 2 short films and there's now a statue of MJ in Brazil where the video was shot. So that song did actually do things and leave a lasting effect.

    I would say there's a few instances of instant classics also in Thriller and We Are The World. Songs that have an instant universal effect and/or inovative and universally felt almost immediately.

    Speechless is a great song, the album sold 10 million and he did sing the opening line in TII but it didn't effect change in popular culture the way other MJ songs did. I think it's as great as a lot of the classics but it didn't do what an MJ classic does.

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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    Is water wet?

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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    I'd be interested to see who would say no, and why...

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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    Not one of my go to MJ songs, but it's a classic.

    Why? Well as Aazzaabb and Barbee said, it's the one that started it all.

    It's the Philosophers Stone of the Harry Potter world. Not the best, but without it you wouldn't have the genius that followed.

    Plus please remember that the man was approx 19 when he wrote this classic.

    That's n..n..n..n...nineteen.
    I CAN'T TAKE IT 'COS I'M TONY

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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    Quote Originally Posted by respect77 View Post
    I think the the term "classic" does carry in itself a certain level of popularity. Of course, there are songs that are brilliant (often more brilliant than popular songs) but aren't that popular - then just call them brilliant songs, but I am not sure they are classics. I think a classic does have to have a certain level of relevance in general popular culture.



    I think TDCAU actually did. While it wasn't that popular in the US when it came out (IMO mainly because of the hostile media treatment of it) but it did slowly become a classic since. I mean people regularly play it at protests - such as Black Lives Matter and it is MJ's second most viewed video on YouTube, only after Thriller. How is it not a part of pop culture then?
    Yeah that is true.
    I still think it's a slippery slope because TDCAU was considered a classic among MJ fans the moment we heard it and it's only now in retrospect that it has become really popular with the general audience. Let's take Stranger In Moscow as an example, the song was largely ignored when it was released but not only the fan community but many of Michael’s collaborators considers this song to be a true MJ classic and one his best. With the exception of TDCAU and some other songs, a lot of Michael’s popular song that resonated with the GA were his hits (obviously). But my point is If we just use popularity as a measuring stick the only classics will be his nr1 hits.

    DSTYGE is a classic just by the impact it has made, I agree with that, but if we isolate and just look at the song in itself does it stand up there with his greatest work? a lot will say yes but my opinion is really unpopular on this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by aazzaabb View Post
    I think a classic is something that's usually quantified in retrospect. I don't think it's that the public dictates what becomes a classic, but the effect the song has on the public and how they react. I would say Earth Song and TDCAU can be

    Speechless is a great song, the album sold 10 million and he did sing the opening line in TII but it didn't effect change in popular culture the way other MJ songs did. I think it's as great as a lot of the classics but it didn't do what an MJ classic does.
    But neither did Who Is It or stranger in Moscow or will you be there? These are songs that always gets recognized, (within the fan community) as MJ classics. I think it’s a slippery slope. Thinking in retrospect It would be foolish of me not to acknowledge DSTYGE as a classic due to it’s popularity but if I isolate the song and look at it just a piece of music I think it’s inferior to a lot of his classics he would go on and do later.

    Quote Originally Posted by innuendo141 View Post
    I'd be interested to see who would say no, and why...
    Obviously DSTYGE is an extremely popular song that is considered an MJ classic by many but imo, and I’m just talking about the song in itself not the impact that it had on pop culture or the charts, it sounds like a product of that era and time with it’s disco elements and it doesn’t transcend the way Michael music would do later in his career with songs such as, WBSS, Billie Jean, Smooth Criminal, Earth Song, Black or white etc. It’s my least favorite of his “Classics” and I don’t think it’s a bad song in fact I like it very much but his later classics are just universal and transcendent imo. I know this is a very unpopular opinion.

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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themidwestcowboy View Post
    But my point is If we just use popularity as a measuring stick the only classics will be his nr1 hits.
    I don't agree. TDCAU is a classic, as we both agreed, but it was never #1 - at least in the US. Same with Smooth Criminal. Even the general public knows where "Annie are you OK?" is coming from and everything associated with that song is iconic from the lean to MJ's outfit. Definitely a classic but it peaked only at #7 in the US. Do you know which songs were ahead of it back then?

    Phil Collins - Two Hearts
    Taylor Dayne - Don't Rush Me
    Def Leppard - Armageddon It
    Bobby Brown - My Prerogative
    Sheriff - When I'm With You
    Poison - Every Rose Has Its Thorn

    http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100/1989-01-21

    I wouldn't consider any of these bigger classics than SC just because they peaked higher than SC, in fact most of these songs, and even the artists performing them, are pretty much forgotten by now.

    A classic is not necessarily about being #1 or its chart position when it is released. Sometimes a song is #1 but it won't have any longevity in public memory. And sometimes another song doesn't get to #1 when it is released but somehow has more logevity and more relevance to later generations than the songs which were ahead of them when they were released. So what is a classic and what isn't a classic is a lot more complicated than just chart positions. It's more about longevity than about chart positions.

    DSTYGE is a classic just by the impact it has made, I agree with that, but if we isolate and just look at the song in itself does it stand up there with his greatest work? a lot will say yes but my opinion is really unpopular on this topic.
    Well, sometimes you will just have to seperate your own taste from an assassment of what is a classic. There are songs (not MJ) that I don't like but I would never deny they are classics just because I am subjectively not so fond of them. A classic isn't about anyone's subjective taste IMO. Like I said in my first post in this thread, I think you do have to see some level of popularity - or let's add longevity to that now - of a song, some level of impact on general pop culture (and not just hard core fans) to consider it a classic IMO.

    Obviously DSTYGE is an extremely popular song that is considered an MJ classic by many but imo, and I’m just talking about the song in itself not the impact that it had on pop culture or the charts, it sounds like a product of that era and time with it’s disco elements and it doesn’t transcend the way Michael music would do later in his career with songs such as, WBSS, Billie Jean, Smooth Criminal, Earth Song, Black or white etc. It’s my least favorite of his “Classics” and I don’t think it’s a bad song in fact I like it very much but his later classics are just universal and transcendent imo. I know this is a very unpopular opinion.
    But again, this is just about "I don't like DSTYGE as much as I do some other MJ songs". Which is fine for a subjective, individual opinion, but I am not sure this is how classics are defined.

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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    Quote Originally Posted by respect77 View Post
    I don't agree. TDCAU is a classic, as we both agreed, but it was never #1 - at least in the US. Same with Smooth Criminal. Even the general public knows where "Annie are you OK?" is coming from and everything associated with that song is iconic from the lean to MJ's outfit. Definitely a classic but it peaked only at #7 in the US. Do you know which songs were ahead of it back then?

    Phil Collins - Two Hearts
    Taylor Dayne - Don't Rush Me
    Def Leppard - Armageddon It
    Bobby Brown - My Prerogative
    Sheriff - When I'm With You
    Poison - Every Rose Has Its Thorn

    http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100/1989-01-21

    I wouldn't consider any of these bigger classics than SC just because they peaked higher than SC, in fact most of these songs, and even the artists performing them, are pretty much forgotten by now.

    A classic is not necessarily about being #1 or its chart position when it is released. Sometimes a song is #1 but it won't have any longevity in public memory. And sometimes another song doesn't get to #1 when it is released but somehow has more logevity and more relevance to later generations than the songs which were ahead of them when they were released. So what is a classic and what isn't a classic is a lot more complicated than just chart positions. It's more about longevity than about chart positions.



    Well, sometimes you will just have to seperate your own taste from an assassment of what is a classic. There are songs (not MJ) that I don't like but I would never deny they are classics just because I am subjectively not so fond of them. A classic isn't about anyone's subjective taste IMO. Like I said in my first post in this thread, I think you do have to see some level of popularity - or let's add longevity to that now - of a song, some level of impact on general pop culture (and not just hard core fans) to consider it a classic IMO.



    But again, this is just about "I don't like DSTYGE as much as I do some other MJ songs". Which is fine for a subjective, individual opinion, but I am not sure this is how classics are defined.
    I didn't know My prerogative was ahead of Smooth Criminal, wow. I still somewhat consider that song as a classic, but I measure by quality and not just popularity and longevity. There are some Stevie Wonder songs and albums that not a lot of people bring up today that are nothing short of classics. They may not be very popular but fans agree that they rank among his finest work.

    To parallel that Who Is It and Stranger In Moscow should also be defined as classics. A lot of times when we are talking about classics here in the community we rarely talk about songs in term of popularity but about the quality of the songs. Or else songs like Earth Song, Who Is It, Will You Be There and stranger in moscow would never be mentioned. So a lot that is quite subjective. I guess what i wanted to discuss was more the quality angle of DSTYGE compared to his other classics. I'm just trying to understand the rules

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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    the greatest element of DSTYGE is the awesome musical arrangement from the very beginning to the very end and there was zero controversy or static associated with it...it was strictly about the talent

    if this song was to debut for the first time in 2016, it would propel over anything that's out there right now

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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    Quote Originally Posted by aazzaabb View Post
    I think a classic is something that's usually quantified in retrospect. I don't think it's that the public dictates what becomes a classic, but the effect the song has on the public and how they react. I would say Earth Song and TDCAU can be considered classics in retrospect; Earth Song was the Christmas number one in my part of the world and the music video is somewhat iconic, there's also a certain amount of notoriety to it given the Brit Awards "Jesus" performance and the public backlash, but it was also presented as the centrepiece and MJ's overall message to the world in This Is It; the most successful music documentary of all time.

    As Respect pointed out, TDCAU has become the go-to anthem for Black Lives Matter; one of the biggest cultural movements in modern times. It was also part of This Is It so even before Black Lives Matter it had reached a universal audience, at the very least it had been received by an audience, not to mention it was performed as part of the HIStory tour and came with it's own controversy surrounding some of the lyrics. It also had the 2 short films and there's now a statue of MJ in Brazil where the video was shot. So that song did actually do things and leave a lasting effect.

    I would say there's a few instances of instant classics also in Thriller and We Are The World. Songs that have an instant universal effect and/or inovative and universally felt almost immediately.

    Speechless is a great song, the album sold 10 million and he did sing the opening line in TII but it didn't effect change in popular culture the way other MJ songs did. I think it's as great as a lot of the classics but it didn't do what an MJ classic does.
    I agree with this and respect77. IMO a classic is related to commercial success in that it's determined by public reception, but with the important added dimension of time i.e. that the public and especially subsequent generations continue to respond to it and it continues to have social/cultural relevance and influence. I honestly don't think musical complexity/ingenuity should be a factor because why does a meaning or feeling need to be communicated in a complicated way if it can be done in a simple way? There's lots of classic music (like hymns) that are musically simple.

    I think it's astonishing how many classics Michael has. DSTYGE, Billie Jean, Beat it are classics because of their instant recognisability and continued popularity. Then We are the world with its huge impact and fundraising at the time and continued inspiration (what with the remake for Haiti), Earth song with its powerful environmentalist message, and TDCAU which has become an anthem for Black Lives Matter internationally and had a positive influence for social development in the Dona Marta favela such that Michael now has a statue there.

    I actually think that having classic songs is the most important thing for an artist, more than critical or (short term) commercial success, because the fundamental purpose of art (of whatever form) is to touch and impact people, to influence their lives, action, beliefs and psyche. For that reason, Michael is objectively one of if not the greatest artist of all time.

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    Default Re: Do you consider Don't Stop Til You Get Enough a classic?

    Duh of course its a classic, everyone knows that, even people who aren't fans

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