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Thread: How Many Unreleased Songs are Complete Enough for a Release?

   
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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    Regarding Brad Sundberg, when he was about to begin his series of seminars he talked here about many unreleased songs & not just for beats, lines, chords, grooves or simple choruses.

    MJJC: “Do you remember any of Michael's songs that remain unreleased to this day and if yes, which ones are your favorites? Can you tell us a little about these unreleased songs?

    Brad Sundberg: “Sorry – I know many songs, but I am going to pass on that one.

    The number that I mentioned earlier (of more than 50 nearly completed, unreleased songs from those 3 sessions) is not a myth, neither did MJ intentionally try to create a picture of rich vaults because there was no point in doing that.

    What is a myth is that only 20 – 25 of nearly completed, unreleased songs out of his entire career exist (for only two more posthumous albums).

    Note for example that for the ‘BAD’ album alone, MJ fully recorded a great number of songs that easily exceeded 50 because his original intention was to choose from them for a 3 disc set album.
    Brad himself said there are not 50 completed songs from the Bad sessions at the seminar. How is “Sorry – I know many songs, but I am going to pass on that one.” evidence for "The nearly completed tracks from the ‘BAD’ sessions (that remain unreleased) are in excess of 50. The same goes for the ‘Dangerous’ & ‘HIStory’ sessions." So you're saying there 150 completed songs in total from those three sessions do you have any evidence to support what you're saying?

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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilan View Post
    Brad himself said there are not 50 completed songs from the Bad sessions at the seminar. How is “Sorry – I know many songs, but I am going to pass on that one.” evidence for "The nearly completed tracks from the ‘BAD’ sessions (that remain unreleased) are in excess of 50. The same goes for the ‘Dangerous’ & ‘HIStory’ sessions." So you're saying there 150 completed songs in total from those three sessions do you have any evidence to support what you're saying?
    The number that I mentioned can be corroborated by various reliable sources (among others, music press, producers who worked with him during those sessions, radio interviews, but first & foremost from MJ himself).

    I do not intend to derail this thread any further because its topic has to do with only ‘Men In Black’ & not with his unreleased material in general.

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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    The number that I mentioned can be corroborated by various reliable sources (among others, music press, producers who worked with him during those sessions, radio interviews, but first & foremost from MJ himself).

    I do not intend to derail this thread any further because its topic has to do with only ‘Men In Black’ & not with his unreleased material in general.
    Provide your evidence

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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    Besides the 41 still-unreleased songs that are known to be complete or nearly complete (at least 26 of which are unleaked), it stands to reason that there are still plenty of releasable songs that we've yet to hear.

    Firstly, we shouldn't lean solely on one person's testimony to determine exactly how many leftovers remain. Recall that Bruce Swedien once claimed there were only "three or four" songs left over FROM EACH ALBUM, which is blatantly incorrect. Also remember that neither Swedien nor Bill Bottrell had any recollection of "I'm So Blue" or "Song Groove/Abortion Papers" prior to their release, Brad Sundberg acknowledged a few titles he had never heard before (including "Man in Black"), Michael Prince referenced a few songs he had no memory of during an interview (one of which was "Can't Get Your Weight Off of Me"), and the Estate executives were unaware of "Hollywood Tonight" and "She Was Lovin' Me" until they were submitted by Prince and Cory Rooney, respectively. Why? Because no sole person was present for every single recording session Michael attended, and therefore can only comment on the sessions they were present for.

    Secondly, keep in mind that none of us knew "Loving You," "I'm So Blue," "Song Groove/Abortion Papers," "Ghost of Another Lover," "Apocalypse Now," or "Jane is a Groupie" existed prior to 2014 (i.e., five years after Michael's passing). Before 2010, we had never heard of "Best of Joy," "Hollywood Tonight," "Slave to the Rhythm," or "Days in Gloucestershire" — yet now we can recite the lyrics by memory. And even now, going on NINE YEARS since Michael's death, we continue to learn of new titles. That in itself is a fair indicator that there is likely more music in existence than we're aware of.

    Third, I have compiled a list of over 130 song titles that have been officially linked to Michael by at least one reputable source (usually a collaborator, an online copyright database, or Michael himself) which we have absolutely no information on — no state of completion, no detailed commentary by a collaborator, no anything. Even considering Michael's artistic process, the likelihood of several of these songs existing in at least a partially-finished state is high.

    Does this mean that every single known title is a complete song? Of course not. But when considering everything that has occurred in regards to Michael's "vault" over the past nine years, it is likely that there is still plenty of material remaining.
    Last edited by AlwaysThere; 03-03-2018 at 05:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilan View Post
    Brad himself said there are not 50 completed songs from the Bad sessions at the seminar. How is “Sorry – I know many songs, but I am going to pass on that one.” evidence for "The nearly completed tracks from the ‘BAD’ sessions (that remain unreleased) are in excess of 50. The same goes for the ‘Dangerous’ & ‘HIStory’ sessions." So you're saying there 150 completed songs in total from those three sessions do you have any evidence to support what you're saying?
    Exactly.

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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysThere View Post
    Besides the 41 still-unreleased songs that are known to be complete or nearly complete (at least 26 of which are unleaked), it stands to reason that there are still plenty of releasable songs that we've yet to hear.

    Firstly, we shouldn't lean solely on one person's testimony to determine exactly how many leftovers remain. Recall that Bruce Swedien once claimed there were only "three or four" songs left over FROM EACH ALBUM, which is blatantly incorrect. Also remember that neither Swedien nor Bill Bottrell had any recollection of "I'm So Blue" or "Song Groove/Abortion Papers" prior to their release, Brad Sundberg acknowledged a few titles he had never heard before (including "Man in Black"), Michael Prince referenced a few songs he had no memory of during an interview (one of which was "Can't Get Your Weight Off of Me"), and the Estate executives were unaware of "Hollywood Tonight" and "She Was Lovin' Me" until they were submitted by Prince and Cory Rooney, respectively. Why? Because no sole person was present for every single recording session Michael attended, and therefore can only comment on the sessions they were present for.

    Secondly, keep in mind that none of us knew "Loving You," "I'm So Blue," "Song Groove/Abortion Papers," "Ghost of Another Lover," or "Jane is a Groupie" existed prior to 2014 (i.e., five years after Michael's passing). Before 2010, we had never heard of "Best of Joy," "Hollywood Tonight," "Apocalypse Now," "Slave to the Rhythm," or "Days in Gloucestershire" — yet now we can recite the lyrics by memory. And even now, going on NINE YEARS since Michael's death, we continue to learn of new titles. That in itself is a fair indicator that there is likely more music in existence than we're aware of.

    Third, I have compiled a list of over 130 song titles that have been officially linked to Michael by at least one reputable source (usually a collaborator, an online copyright database, or Michael himself) which we have absolutely no information on — no state of completion, no detailed commentary by a collaborator, no anything. Even considering Michael's artistic process, the likelihood of several of these songs existing in at least a partially-finished state is high.

    Does this mean that every single known title is a complete song? Of course not. But when considering everything that has occurred in regards to Michael's "vault" over the past nine years, it is likely that there is still plenty of material remaining.
    I totally accept what you're saying....good points, all; BUT emphasis should be placed on your phrase, PARTIALLY-FINISHED STATE. That's where the problem lies. I think, when fans ask people like Brad and other sound engineers about unreleased songs, they assume that fans are referring to songs complete enough for release and thus, they maintain that there are not nearly as many as people have been led to believe. I think it's important that they tell fans the truth, in this matter and I think that they are telling the truth. Song titles are not songs, finished enough and worthy of release. A chorus, a few sketchy lyrics, a hint of a possibility of a song, or Michael singing the same line, over and over, is not truly a song, in my opinion. It's a song embryo, that's all.

    Many of these songs were not finished and/or discarded for a reason. Some of them were just not very good, some of them were not going in the direction that Michael wanted them to go and many of them were not right for the times (not then and not now). In view of the fact that a large section of the fandom does not agree with producers "finishing" Michael's unreleased and unfinished songs and that John Branca stated that we should not expect any new music, or albums any time soon...well...that's a clear hint regarding the big picture, in my opinion.

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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    ^ Your post took my brain to this.. My thing (if songs are "complete" or not) the estate should have at the very least reached out to the producers/mixers/engineers that were working on individual songs for release. If anyone would know what Michael wanted out of the songs, they would have the clearest vision.
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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmoothCriminal1995 View Post
    What did you think of it?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01Y4gO-8El4

    Sounds very similar to this.

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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by smoothvillain View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01Y4gO-8El4

    Sounds very similar to this.
    Musically or lyrically?

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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilan View Post
    Provide your evidence
    I am afraid no amount of evidence would affect you.

    But for anyone else who is willing to learn more things concerning MJ’s number of nearly completed (unreleased) songs, adding to what AlwaysThere already posted above, here are few more bits of reliable information.

    "There are dozens and dozens of songs that did not end up on his albums” (Tommy Mottola)

    Teddy Riley also spoke in the past about a lot of finished tracks that were considered for inclusion on the ‘Dangerous’ album.

    Also, according to reliable media (such as, Billboard), MJ fully recorded more than 100 songs during his final years with various current, top producers.

    Frank Dileo also stated at that time that among those 100 songs there were many from recording sessions that took place in the 80s. This means there are definitely far more ‘BAD’ outtakes than those few which were included on the ‘BAD 25’ album.

    Also, there were different teams of producers/engineers that worked separately during those sessions because MJ wanted to compete one team with another for best results. This means that it was impossible for a single person (who worked during those sessions) to know all the songs that were being recorded back then.

    Finally, keep in mind that Estate may try to hold information back about more nearly completed songs in order to lower the pressure for releasing more posthumous albums with previously unheard material.

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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    Wait, did Apocalypse Now leak? I didnt see anyone writing about it anywhere!

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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by thiron View Post
    Wait, did Apocalypse Now leak? I didnt see anyone writing about it anywhere!
    What album session is that song from? Who was the collaborator/producer? Does it have co-writer? Is it vocally complete?

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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    I don't know, man ^^ I asked because AlwaysThere mentioned it along with a couple of other tracks that were released/leaked, saying we know the lyrics by heart by now ^^

    So did we miss anything or did you maybe mix it up with another track, AlwaysThere?

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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by smoothvillain View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01Y4gO-8El4

    Sounds very similar to this.
    Thank you

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    Default Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by thiron View Post
    I don't know, man ^^ I asked because AlwaysThere mentioned it along with a couple of other tracks that were released/leaked, saying we know the lyrics by heart by now ^^

    So did we miss anything or did you maybe mix it up with another track, AlwaysThere?
    "Apocalypse Now" wasn't leaked -- my fault entirely! I meant to put that title in among the songs we had no idea about prior to 2014. Thanks for pointing that out!

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