How Many Unreleased Songs are Complete Enough for a Release?

mj_frenzy

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Administration Announcement: New thread started by Slave to the Rhythm

Relevant posts about unreleased songs have been moved into this thread, from the Men in Black discussion.

Please carry on.




Slave to the Rhythm said:
Because the Men In Black thread is bombed with a discussion about this I thought I start one especially for this question.

Please state your opinion with sources or an argumentation at least.

I will also create a list if you can give me a source that an unreleased song is complete/releasable.


In my estimation, there are still many, nearly completed songs in the vaults.

In particular, the ‘BAD’, ‘Dangerous’ & ‘HIStory’ recording sessions were extremely prolific in terms of nearly completed unreleased material.

The nearly completed tracks from the ‘BAD’ sessions (that remain unreleased) are in excess of 50. The same goes for the ‘Dangerous’ & ‘HIStory’ sessions.

MJ used to over-record during those sessions & to create large collections of nearly completed tracks before choosing the ones for his final tracklists.
 
mj_frenzy;4217524 said:
In my estimation, there are still many, nearly completed songs in the vaults.

In particular, the ‘BAD’, ‘Dangerous’ & ‘HIStory’ recording sessions were extremely prolific in terms of nearly completed unreleased material.

The nearly completed tracks from the ‘BAD’ sessions (that remain unreleased) are in excess of 50. The same goes for the ‘Dangerous’ & ‘HIStory’ sessions.

MJ used to over-record during those sessions & to create large collections of nearly completed tracks before choosing the ones for his final tracklists.

I spoke to brad about this its simply not true. More than half of those 50 would have just been getting a feel for a groove or just a chorus
 
Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

I spoke to Brad about this its simply not true. More than half of those 50 would have just been getting a feel for a groove or just a chorus.

I completely agree with you. I have spoken to Brad about this, as well and he is definitely in a position to know. This idea that fans have, about "hundreds of songs" is a myth, in my opinion......a story that has built up and been added to, over time and one which Michael never really bothered to refute.....in fact, he actively added to this myth, in depositions, etc. in order to create a picture of rich vaults of untapped material.....but it just does not exist. 50 songs, or 100 songs could mean anything at all.....just beats, lines, chords....a few sketchy bars. Brad actually played us quite a few demos that he called "song sketches" and he basically said that most of the material that remains, is just like that. A lot of times, there are no lyrics at all, merely humming and other sounds, with Michael kind of "jamming" with the musicians and getting a general feeling for the song and how it might develop.
 
Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

We definitely Need a List of songs, we know are conplete! Like Throwing your Life Away.
 
Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

Didn't LA Reid say that they had enough songs for two more albums when they were working on Xscape? I don't think there are 100 or even 50 complete or near complete songs. But I reckon there are at least about 20 complete or near complete songs for two more Michael Jackson albums.
 
“Throwin’ your life away” seems complete
 
Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

Didn't LA Reid say that they had enough songs for two more albums when they were working on Xscape? I don't think there are 100 or even 50 complete or near complete songs. But I reckon there are at least about 20 complete or near complete songs for two more Michael Jackson albums.

LA Reid and Sony had 24 vocally complete songs for Xscape and that is without will.i.am songs, RedOne songs and all the songs Michael had on his hard drives at his home the day he died (the hard drives that LaToya stole from his house).
 
lounisp;4217544 said:
“Throwin’ your life away” seems complete

I had the opportunity to hear that track 6 months ago. It's around 7 minutes long.
 
Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

Didn't LA Reid say that they had enough songs for two more albums when they were working on Xscape? I don't think there are 100 or even 50 complete or near complete songs. But I reckon there are at least about 20 complete or near complete songs for two more Michael Jackson albums.

Two more albums, maybe - that would be short albums, with around ten songs on each. Not hundreds of songs, as some fans believe. The engineers I've spoken to still seem to think, even so, that those songs would require a lot of work and "contemporising", which might not be worth it, in the long run; keeping in mind how expensive studio time is and how, historically, only luke warm support has been given to posthumous albums/projects, by the fan base, in general.

Personally, I would LOVE to hear the remaining (mostly) finished songs, put together in the same way that Xscape was, for example... with the original demos included, alongside the finished, or re-worked/reimagined tracks. My heart and mind is open, ready to receive ALL that is left of Michael's work, but I think the Estate may have given up on that angle, for the moment at least.
 
Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

Two more albums, maybe - that would be short albums, with around ten songs on each. Not hundreds of songs, as some fans believe. The engineers I've spoken to still seem to think, even so, that those songs would require a lot of work and "contemporising", which might not be worth it, in the long run; keeping in mind how expensive studio time is and how, historically, only luke warm support has been given to posthumous albums/projects, by the fan base, in general.

Personally, I would LOVE to hear the remaining (mostly) finished songs, put together in the same way that Xscape was, for example... with the original demos included, alongside the finished, or re-worked/reimagined tracks. My heart and mind is open, ready to receive ALL that is left of Michael's work, but I think the Estate may have given up on that angle, for the moment at least.

They can always do a duets album for songs that have limited vocals from MJ. I bet that is on the cards.
 
Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

I've always figured Michael helped start the thought of hundreds of songs to help with image of the creative mastermind/ perfectionist always at work etc.. And its easy to say 30 songs for this album, 100 songs for this album.. In some cases it may be "semi" true.. a bunch of ideas of songs + songs introduced to him would equal a large number of songs.. This does not say a word to songs that are recorded and/or to what extent.. Plus as we know some songs evolve into others.


There is music out there for sure, what can be considered complete is more or less a handful.. With that handful the estate has to be smart on stretching the released because if we get 2 full albums of unreleased material (lets say) within the next decade.. the fallowing decades will be dry.
 
Dilan;4217527 said:
I spoke to brad about this its simply not true. More than half of those 50 would have just been getting a feel for a groove or just a chorus

Mikky Dee;4217529 said:
I completely agree with you. I have spoken to Brad about this, as well and he is definitely in a position to know. This idea that fans have, about "hundreds of songs" is a myth, in my opinion......a story that has built up and been added to, over time and one which Michael never really bothered to refute.....in fact, he actively added to this myth, in depositions, etc. in order to create a picture of rich vaults of untapped material.....but it just does not exist. 50 songs, or 100 songs could mean anything at all.....just beats, lines, chords....a few sketchy bars. Brad actually played us quite a few demos that he called "song sketches" and he basically said that most of the material that remains, is just like that. A lot of times, there are no lyrics at all, merely humming and other sounds, with Michael kind of "jamming" with the musicians and getting a general feeling for the song and how it might develop.

Mikky Dee;4217571 said:
Two more albums, maybe - that would be short albums, with around ten songs on each. Not hundreds of songs, as some fans believe.

Regarding Brad Sundberg, when he was about to begin his series of seminars he talked here about many unreleased songs & not just for beats, lines, chords, grooves or simple choruses.

MJJC: “Do you remember any of Michael's songs that remain unreleased to this day and if yes, which ones are your favorites? Can you tell us a little about these unreleased songs?”

Brad Sundberg: “Sorry – I know many songs, but I am going to pass on that one.”

The number that I mentioned earlier (of more than 50 nearly completed, unreleased songs from those 3 sessions) is not a myth, neither did MJ intentionally try to create a picture of rich vaults because there was no point in doing that.

What is a myth is that only 20 – 25 of nearly completed, unreleased songs out of his entire career exist (for only two more posthumous albums).

Note for example that for the ‘BAD’ album alone, MJ fully recorded a great number of songs that easily exceeded 50 because his original intention was to choose from them for a 3 disc set album.
 
mj_frenzy;4217602 said:
Regarding Brad Sundberg, when he was about to begin his series of seminars he talked here about many unreleased songs & not just for beats, lines, chords, grooves or simple choruses.

MJJC: “Do you remember any of Michael's songs that remain unreleased to this day and if yes, which ones are your favorites? Can you tell us a little about these unreleased songs?”

Brad Sundberg: “Sorry – I know many songs, but I am going to pass on that one.”

The number that I mentioned earlier (of more than 50 nearly completed, unreleased songs from those 3 sessions) is not a myth, neither did MJ intentionally try to create a picture of rich vaults because there was no point in doing that.

What is a myth is that only 20 – 25 of nearly completed, unreleased songs out of his entire career exist (for only two more posthumous albums).

Note for example that for the ‘BAD’ album alone, MJ fully recorded a great number of songs that easily exceeded 50 because his original intention was to choose from them for a 3 disc set album.

Brad himself said there are not 50 completed songs from the Bad sessions at the seminar. How is “Sorry – I know many songs, but I am going to pass on that one.” evidence for "The nearly completed tracks from the ‘BAD’ sessions (that remain unreleased) are in excess of 50. The same goes for the ‘Dangerous’ & ‘HIStory’ sessions." So you're saying there 150 completed songs in total from those three sessions do you have any evidence to support what you're saying?
 
Dilan;4217603 said:
Brad himself said there are not 50 completed songs from the Bad sessions at the seminar. How is “Sorry – I know many songs, but I am going to pass on that one.” evidence for "The nearly completed tracks from the ‘BAD’ sessions (that remain unreleased) are in excess of 50. The same goes for the ‘Dangerous’ & ‘HIStory’ sessions." So you're saying there 150 completed songs in total from those three sessions do you have any evidence to support what you're saying?

The number that I mentioned can be corroborated by various reliable sources (among others, music press, producers who worked with him during those sessions, radio interviews, but first & foremost from MJ himself).

I do not intend to derail this thread any further because its topic has to do with only ‘Men In Black’ & not with his unreleased material in general.
 
mj_frenzy;4217607 said:
The number that I mentioned can be corroborated by various reliable sources (among others, music press, producers who worked with him during those sessions, radio interviews, but first & foremost from MJ himself).

I do not intend to derail this thread any further because its topic has to do with only ‘Men In Black’ & not with his unreleased material in general.

Provide your evidence
 
Besides the 41 still-unreleased songs that are known to be complete or nearly complete (at least 26 of which are unleaked), it stands to reason that there are still plenty of releasable songs that we've yet to hear.

Firstly, we shouldn't lean solely on one person's testimony to determine exactly how many leftovers remain. Recall that Bruce Swedien once claimed there were only "three or four" songs left over FROM EACH ALBUM, which is blatantly incorrect. Also remember that neither Swedien nor Bill Bottrell had any recollection of "I'm So Blue" or "Song Groove/Abortion Papers" prior to their release, Brad Sundberg acknowledged a few titles he had never heard before (including "Man in Black"), Michael Prince referenced a few songs he had no memory of during an interview (one of which was "Can't Get Your Weight Off of Me"), and the Estate executives were unaware of "Hollywood Tonight" and "She Was Lovin' Me" until they were submitted by Prince and Cory Rooney, respectively. Why? Because no sole person was present for every single recording session Michael attended, and therefore can only comment on the sessions they were present for.

Secondly, keep in mind that none of us knew "Loving You," "I'm So Blue," "Song Groove/Abortion Papers," "Ghost of Another Lover," "Apocalypse Now," or "Jane is a Groupie" existed prior to 2014 (i.e., five years after Michael's passing). Before 2010, we had never heard of "Best of Joy," "Hollywood Tonight," "Slave to the Rhythm," or "Days in Gloucestershire" — yet now we can recite the lyrics by memory. And even now, going on NINE YEARS since Michael's death, we continue to learn of new titles. That in itself is a fair indicator that there is likely more music in existence than we're aware of.

Third, I have compiled a list of over 130 song titles that have been officially linked to Michael by at least one reputable source (usually a collaborator, an online copyright database, or Michael himself) which we have absolutely no information on — no state of completion, no detailed commentary by a collaborator, no anything. Even considering Michael's artistic process, the likelihood of several of these songs existing in at least a partially-finished state is high.

Does this mean that every single known title is a complete song? Of course not. But when considering everything that has occurred in regards to Michael's "vault" over the past nine years, it is likely that there is still plenty of material remaining.
 
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Dilan;4217603 said:
Brad himself said there are not 50 completed songs from the Bad sessions at the seminar. How is “Sorry – I know many songs, but I am going to pass on that one.” evidence for "The nearly completed tracks from the ‘BAD’ sessions (that remain unreleased) are in excess of 50. The same goes for the ‘Dangerous’ & ‘HIStory’ sessions." So you're saying there 150 completed songs in total from those three sessions do you have any evidence to support what you're saying?

Exactly.
 
AlwaysThere;4217649 said:
Besides the 41 still-unreleased songs that are known to be complete or nearly complete (at least 26 of which are unleaked), it stands to reason that there are still plenty of releasable songs that we've yet to hear.

Firstly, we shouldn't lean solely on one person's testimony to determine exactly how many leftovers remain. Recall that Bruce Swedien once claimed there were only "three or four" songs left over FROM EACH ALBUM, which is blatantly incorrect. Also remember that neither Swedien nor Bill Bottrell had any recollection of "I'm So Blue" or "Song Groove/Abortion Papers" prior to their release, Brad Sundberg acknowledged a few titles he had never heard before (including "Man in Black"), Michael Prince referenced a few songs he had no memory of during an interview (one of which was "Can't Get Your Weight Off of Me"), and the Estate executives were unaware of "Hollywood Tonight" and "She Was Lovin' Me" until they were submitted by Prince and Cory Rooney, respectively. Why? Because no sole person was present for every single recording session Michael attended, and therefore can only comment on the sessions they were present for.

Secondly, keep in mind that none of us knew "Loving You," "I'm So Blue," "Song Groove/Abortion Papers," "Ghost of Another Lover," or "Jane is a Groupie" existed prior to 2014 (i.e., five years after Michael's passing). Before 2010, we had never heard of "Best of Joy," "Hollywood Tonight," "Apocalypse Now," "Slave to the Rhythm," or "Days in Gloucestershire" — yet now we can recite the lyrics by memory. And even now, going on NINE YEARS since Michael's death, we continue to learn of new titles. That in itself is a fair indicator that there is likely more music in existence than we're aware of.

Third, I have compiled a list of over 130 song titles that have been officially linked to Michael by at least one reputable source (usually a collaborator, an online copyright database, or Michael himself) which we have absolutely no information on — no state of completion, no detailed commentary by a collaborator, no anything. Even considering Michael's artistic process, the likelihood of several of these songs existing in at least a partially-finished state is high.

Does this mean that every single known title is a complete song? Of course not. But when considering everything that has occurred in regards to Michael's "vault" over the past nine years, it is likely that there is still plenty of material remaining.

I totally accept what you're saying....good points, all; BUT emphasis should be placed on your phrase, PARTIALLY-FINISHED STATE. That's where the problem lies. I think, when fans ask people like Brad and other sound engineers about unreleased songs, they assume that fans are referring to songs complete enough for release and thus, they maintain that there are not nearly as many as people have been led to believe. I think it's important that they tell fans the truth, in this matter and I think that they are telling the truth. Song titles are not songs, finished enough and worthy of release. A chorus, a few sketchy lyrics, a hint of a possibility of a song, or Michael singing the same line, over and over, is not truly a song, in my opinion. It's a song embryo, that's all.

Many of these songs were not finished and/or discarded for a reason. Some of them were just not very good, some of them were not going in the direction that Michael wanted them to go and many of them were not right for the times (not then and not now). In view of the fact that a large section of the fandom does not agree with producers "finishing" Michael's unreleased and unfinished songs and that John Branca stated that we should not expect any new music, or albums any time soon...well...that's a clear hint regarding the big picture, in my opinion.
 
Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

^ Your post took my brain to this.. My thing (if songs are "complete" or not) the estate should have at the very least reached out to the producers/mixers/engineers that were working on individual songs for release. If anyone would know what Michael wanted out of the songs, they would have the clearest vision.
 
Dilan;4217608 said:
Provide your evidence

I am afraid no amount of evidence would affect you.

But for anyone else who is willing to learn more things concerning MJ’s number of nearly completed (unreleased) songs, adding to what AlwaysThere already posted above, here are few more bits of reliable information.

"There are dozens and dozens of songs that did not end up on his albums” (Tommy Mottola)

Teddy Riley also spoke in the past about a lot of finished tracks that were considered for inclusion on the ‘Dangerous’ album.

Also, according to reliable media (such as, Billboard), MJ fully recorded more than 100 songs during his final years with various current, top producers.

Frank Dileo also stated at that time that among those 100 songs there were many from recording sessions that took place in the 80s. This means there are definitely far more ‘BAD’ outtakes than those few which were included on the ‘BAD 25’ album.

Also, there were different teams of producers/engineers that worked separately during those sessions because MJ wanted to compete one team with another for best results. This means that it was impossible for a single person (who worked during those sessions) to know all the songs that were being recorded back then.

Finally, keep in mind that Estate may try to hold information back about more nearly completed songs in order to lower the pressure for releasing more posthumous albums with previously unheard material.
 
Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

Wait, did Apocalypse Now leak? I didnt see anyone writing about it anywhere!
 
Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

Wait, did Apocalypse Now leak? I didnt see anyone writing about it anywhere!

What album session is that song from? Who was the collaborator/producer? Does it have co-writer? Is it vocally complete?
 
Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

I don't know, man ^^ I asked because AlwaysThere mentioned it along with a couple of other tracks that were released/leaked, saying we know the lyrics by heart by now ^^

So did we miss anything or did you maybe mix it up with another track, AlwaysThere?
 
Re: Men In Black: How finished is it?

I don't know, man ^^ I asked because AlwaysThere mentioned it along with a couple of other tracks that were released/leaked, saying we know the lyrics by heart by now ^^

So did we miss anything or did you maybe mix it up with another track, AlwaysThere?

"Apocalypse Now" wasn't leaked -- my fault entirely! I meant to put that title in among the songs we had no idea about prior to 2014. Thanks for pointing that out! :)
 
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