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Thread: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

   
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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by SoCav View Post
    Apparently Sony and the Estate were granted their appeal. Ugh...
    Correct.


    Of course the usual suspects are twisting the court ruling and are now writing things that are not implied by this ruling at all.
    Serova's lawyers should not have taken the route that solely focused on whether there was commercial speech or not. As I've explained, if there was none at all, consumers could still be deceived/damaged (thanks to the bona fide rights protection that protects consumers' due right in the propriety of an article of trade) and Sony & Estate could not be removed from the case this easily.



    Quote Originally Posted by SoCav View Post
    Let me put it this way: do you think there is any MJ on those songs besides copy/pasted samples from earlier MJ songs?

    I'm just tired to repeat the same answer I have given years ago: there are Michael Jackson lead vocals on all Cascio recordings that are not copy-pasted from the archives.


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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action


















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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by Korgnex View Post
    Of course the usual suspects are twisting the court ruling and are now writing things that are not implied by this ruling at all.
    Can you clarify? Which things do you think are twisted?

    I'm just tired to repeat the same answer I have given years ago: there are Michael Jackson lead vocals on all Cascio recordings that are not copy-pasted from the archives.
    Just wasn't exactly sure what your position was (still not totally, but thanks for answering nevertheless).

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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by Korgnex View Post
    I'm just tired to repeat the same answer I have given years ago: there are Michael Jackson lead vocals on all Cascio recordings that are not copy-pasted from the archives.
    You have some serious hearing problems my friend :)

    No disrespect :)

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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by SoCav View Post
















    Could they be any more misleading? Nobody said Sony was allowed to sell fake songs. That's not what the ruling said at all. I disagree with the ruling but ATU and Co are losing credibility quite quickly with how they are twisting everything.

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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

    This ruling is absolutely disgusting.

    But maybe that's not important at all because Sony and the Estate will have to remove the songs from Michael's discography when Cascios and Porte lose the other case.

    When they prove in court that the songs are not sung by Michael Jackson, the Estate will have to do it and today's ruling will become irrelevant. The other case against the real criminals here is the most important for all of us and for Michael.

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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

    These people have a severe lack of understanding legal talk. Serova's lawyers have failed to argue why the case should involve Sony and MJ Estate as defendants once Sony/Estate used the anti-SLAPP motion (protects them against abusive cases such as, say, fans complaining about this and that without any merit). They only wanted them to be liable because of the way they did actively advertize the album and for that they wanted to use various examples which has raised the question whether these examples would be categorized as "commercial speech" (thus they would qualify as defendants) or not. But some were public matters such as the Oprah interview and others are standard business procedures that don't fall under "commercial speech" either (see below, too).

    The issue with Serova's case is that their lawyers wasted time and effort when they should have taken another approach which is that consumers would - without any need for commercial speech - rightfully assume that a commercially released album and its individual songs labelled as "Michael Jackson" would actually have him singing on them because Michael Jackson is an established singer who would always sing on his songs. This is called the bona fide rights protection which applies to objective consumers.

    I'll repeat myself: in this case it means that Michael Jackson was known to be a vocal performer, a singer and all of his previously released albums would contain songs that he performed on his own, not one exception.
    From past empirical values consumers could rightly expect that the album or individual songs that are all labelled "Michael Jackson" would be sung by no other than Michael Jackson. Unlike groups like Genesis eg Michael Jackson did not have another singer that would perform instead of himself.
    The album was teased with "Breaking News", labelled "Michael Jackson". Consumers could in no way conclude that instead they would buy songs that were not sung by Michael Jackson. They could only acquire the individual songs or the album in good faith, thus they would have been deceived/damaged if the songs were instead performed by an entirely different person. Due to Michael's name recognition and his body of work, noone would expect songs by "Michael Jackson" to be sung by person XYZ instead. That can't be said for every artist but in Michael's case there would not be any other expectation that consumers can rely on.

    Consumers are legally granted the due right in the propriety of an article of trade and Sony & Estate have been selling these articles of trade to the public.

    Additionally, the omnipresent labelling (especially in today's digital age), the credits, the (public) copyright registrations that have legal consequences - all these things are NOT commercial speech, yet they are all publicly viewable and consumers can perceive them.

    A lot of wasted time and Serova's lawyers have unfortunately failed to see that. Because Sony and the Estate could not be removed from the case if they made this clear to the judges. It is an established principle of the law that protects consumers and the case should have focused on that from day one, yet not even a word about it.
    Last edited by Korgnex; 28-08-2018 at 10:04 PM.


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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

    Court docs Please note this sentence on the last page. Since the Estate and Sony have been removed from the suit (they didn't commit fraud, supposedly the Cascios did), then they don't have to rule on the verbiage on the album/liner notes.

    I guess had they been kept as defendants we would have got to that point-the last few lines in the ruling "we therefore not reach the issue of whether the challenged statements would be misleading to a reasonable customer." But since they aren't, they don't have to rule on that.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-ME...fpMRLiJP_/view
    Last edited by barbee0715; 28-08-2018 at 10:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by SmoothGangsta View Post
    Could they be any more misleading? Nobody said Sony was allowed to sell fake songs. That's not what the ruling said at all. I disagree with the ruling but ATU and Co are losing credibility quite quickly with how they are twisting everything.
    Well, in essence that's what they are saying. They are selling fake songs and they have just been let off the hook for it.
    Do you want an official MJ collectors label? Vote now!
    http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/th...llectors-label
    If it's good enough for Elvis, it's good enough for Michael.
    ---

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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

    And it will give them the arrogance to possibly do it again if they so desire.

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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by Korgnex View Post
    The issue with Serova's case is that their lawyers wasted time and effort when they should have taken another approach which is that consumers would - without any need for commercial speech - rightfully assume that a commercially released album and its individual songs labelled as "Michael Jackson" would actually have him singing on them because Michael Jackson is an established singer who would always sing on his songs. [...]

    A lot of wasted time and Serova's lawyers have unfortunately failed to see that. Because Sony and the Estate could not be removed from the case if they made this clear to the judges.
    You misunderstand both the procedure and the law. Once Sony and the Estate brought the "free speech" defense, we could not choose any alternate route, we had to respond to their defense. So it was not a "failure" on our part to do anything.

    Moreover, the Court of Appeal's holding is that it doesn't matter that the consumers were misled. Because the Court found Sony and the Estate's statements on the CD and in the video ad to be non-commercial speech, their lies are protected. They could say it's MJ, they could say it's Frank Sinatra - as long as they didn't know for sure and it was a matter of public debate, they had the right to say that and cannot be held responsible even if consumers blindly believed them and spent money on something that turned out to be not what was advertised.

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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

    As a defense to anti-SLAPP you had to response, correct. However your lawyers have failed to introduce arguments why and how consumers could still be misled - without any active part from Sony/Estate (aka without commercial speech/advertizements needed) - by the parties that have been selling articles of trade and the US law does have a fundamental right that can apply here if it is introduced to the judges.

    You actually misunderstand the ruling, it was not decided that it doesn't matter whether if consumers were misled, it doesn't matter IF THEY ARE MISLED BY NON-COMMERCIAL SPEECH which in other words means they profited from freedom of speech and were saying things just like anyone can say anything (as long as it is not against the law).

    That's the applicable subset from the First Amendment that applies to their anti-SLAPP:

    First Amendment - Religion and Expression. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    There's a misunderstanding on your side, unfortunately.
    Last edited by Korgnex; 29-08-2018 at 04:29 AM.


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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by WildStyle View Post
    Well, in essence that's what they are saying. They are selling fake songs and they have just been let off the hook for it.
    Not at all. If Damien and his pals want to twist things and misinform people that's their prerogative I guess.

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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

    Quote Originally Posted by Korgnex View Post
    I'm just tired to repeat the same answer I have given years ago: there are Michael Jackson lead vocals on all Cascio recordings that are not copy-pasted from the archives.
    Can you tell us a part with MJ lead vocals? for example on breaking news? Which minute/second?

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    Default Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

    Breaking News Acapella.
    Released by Sony in 2010 to prove that it's MJ.

    https://instaud.io/2CbD

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