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  1. #316
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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Do you really think Michael Jackson was a gentle child molester who told children that he and them would all go to jail if they ever told anyone what they were doing? Michael Jackson would have had to have been walking on egg shells everyday of his life since 1987, worried that one of these kids might someday turn on him and tell their parents, and then the authorities. To me, Michael Jackson showed no signs of that.

    Do you really think Michael Jackson would harm a child, and not care what all the people he ever worked with at Motown, USA for Africa, and all of Hollywood would think of him if they found out?

    Adolf Hitler was a bad man. They still teach about Hitler in high school and college history classes.

    No, I would not stop listening to Michael Jackson if it turned out he harmed a child. I would keep listening to his music, but I would cry in disappointment at the same time.

    If Michael Jackson did harm a child, I think many people, because Michael Jackson was a child star, always in the public eye, would look back at pictures and videos of him from his time with the Jackson 5, and wonder how could this have happened, but give him a pass because it's not his fault.

    But let's just say there had never been a Jackson 5, and Michael Jackson was never a child star, and his first album was Off The Wall as an adult, and then 12 years later allegations of harming children come out against him, and they turned out to be true. Would I then stop being a fan and stop listening to his music? Maybe? I don't know.

    Do you really think Michael Jackson would want to disappoint and disgust Brooke Shields?
    __________________________________________________

    Does anyone know how the 1993 Oprah Winfrey interview with Michael Jackson came about? Was it Oprah's idea, or was it the Jackson camp's idea?

    How do you respond to the following?

    Comments on youtube under the Dan Reed Emmy win video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nab9u4cDf6A
    Last edited by Elton-Cetera; 21-06-2020 at 04:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elton-Cetera View Post
    Does anyone know how the 1993 Oprah Winfrey interview with Michael Jackson came about? Was it Oprah's idea, or was it the Jackson camp's idea?

    How do you respond to the following?

    Comments on youtube under the Dan Reed Emmy win video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nab9u4cDf6A
    It's very easy for anyone to make any accusations about Michael. The only way to refute them is to read and understand each case thoroughly, using all the resources made available on the internet. Many people have spent many years writing about these cases, and making informative videos about them.

    Maybe start here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRZ9fr35Vuc



    Maybe also wait for the 'Square One' video which will apparently include more information, and which should be available from approx October 5th.
    'We may not change the world in one day but we still can change some things today, in our small way.'[/SIZE][/SIZE]

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Michael Jackson is innocent!

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    The situation has only greatened my disdain for the those who keep sticking with irrational disproved points when engaging in debate. Simply blurting out MJ Innocent will not solve the problem. Tying some false equivalence (I've seen an increase in criticizing David Bowie and Elvis Presley in particular) or alleging some conspiracy or political political slant only makes it worse.

    - Jordie Chandler didn't recant, and Evan Chandler's "extortion" phone call could be interpreted otherwise. The first time I heard I thought it was a father reacting to possible abuse of his child rather than an extortion attempt and that is what the police thought. It was when he said "that's irrelevant" I leaned towards possible alterior motives.
    - Those who went after Aphrodite Jones for having some reservations about June Chandler.
    - Some are just telling pxeople to watch/read Charles Thomson, Danny Wu, and Razorfist. Many of them make strong arguments but none of them are perfect.

    Overall my opinion has not wavered, but the questions and doubts I have are mostly about Jackson's pacifist image and originality of his art. Fans are quick to write off things as "tabloid" like will.i.am saying he belittled Prince or Paul Anka saying the same about Donny Osmond. There's also the idea he was in some ways a shrewd businessman. Though I take most things from Quincy Jones with a grain of salt, I think there's some truth to his "borrowing" of ideas from others, not unlike Edison or Steve Jobs' "inventions." Of course, nothing can degrade from the end product that was produced and its influence.
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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankyboy5 View Post
    The situation has only greatened my disdain for the those who keep sticking with irrational disproved points when engaging in debate. Simply blurting out MJ Innocent will not solve the problem. Tying some false equivalence (I've seen an increase in criticizing David Bowie and Elvis Presley in particular) or alleging some conspiracy or political political slant only makes it worse.

    - Jordie Chandler didn't recant, and Evan Chandler's "extortion" phone call could be interpreted otherwise. The first time I heard I thought it was a father reacting to possible abuse of his child rather than an extortion attempt and that is what the police thought. It was when he said "that's irrelevant" I leaned towards possible alterior motives.
    - Those who went after Aphrodite Jones for having some reservations about June Chandler.
    - Some are just telling pxeople to watch/read Charles Thomson, Danny Wu, and Razorfist. Many of them make strong arguments but none of them are perfect.

    Overall my opinion has not wavered, but the questions and doubts I have are mostly about Jackson's pacifist image and originality of his art. Fans are quick to write off things as "tabloid" like will.i.am saying he belittled Prince or Paul Anka saying the same about Donny Osmond. There's also the idea he was in some ways a shrewd businessman. Though I take most things from Quincy Jones with a grain of salt, I think there's some truth to his "borrowing" of ideas from others, not unlike Edison or Steve Jobs' "inventions." Of course, nothing can degrade from the end product that was produced and its influence.
    As long as fans and people stick with the facts of MJ, that proves more of MJ's innocence. What gets me is when some folks want MJ to prove so much more than the accusers. BURDEN of PROOF lies more with the accusers than MJ; but even at that, Michael went beyond the call of duty to prove his innocence and as the defendant in the court of law. MJ can NOT prove a "negative". I can sit here and call everyone a child abuser including Elvis and David and now everyone wants them to prove they are not (I think the point about David and Elvis is about BIAS. Elvis was accused about Pricilla, David was accused YET these men did not get the MEDIA TREATMENT like MJ which bring up other issues of fairness, fact checking, race, etc). As for Evan, Evan sound like a liar to me the first time I heard the tape. On the tape, Evan says nothing about 'my son was abused'. Even when a parent goes into a rant on what they just THINK, they will still say it and call it out why they are ranting on their kid being abused even if it was just a THOUGHT. No, Evan was plotting a scheme (his tone, the words he used, etc was a person who was PLOTTING a scheme saying it without saying it). Even if Evan was a "money hungry" parent, Evan still could have got the criminal case (he could have got BOTH criminal and civil even still after the settlement. The settlement stops NOTHING if something happen. MJ side was pushing more for the criminal case to go first and MJ would have been the defendant. That says a lot who is innocent. Then Evan tried to sue MJ again after the Diane Sawyer interview 1995 and the statue of limitation was still available for do the criminal which Evan still did not do. And this still does not include the people who were PAID to LIE by tabloids. That is a fact. Even when June Chandler was subpoena to come to court in 2005, June NEVER said IN COURT OF LAW in front of a BIAS ANTI-MJ media which she could have said ANYTHING she wanted at that point, that "Michael abused my son". Even a male reporter on CNN called that out & even said she seem to help MJ with her testimony. yes, June knows she benefited from BLOOD MONEY from an innocent man- MJ). I agree with the "borrowing" of ideas from others. ALL MUSICANS do it to some degree (only so many notes on a horn, keyboard, drum, etc).
    Last edited by terrell; 19-07-2020 at 11:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    *How is saying “Michael is Innocent” with court documents, facts and evidence not enough , when you have brain dead people who actually believe that Michael is guilty without a shred of evidence or proof and based on nothing except manipulation, innuendo and fake allegations? The evidence is geared toward the fact that Michael IS Innocent, much more than guilt. I have seen NOTHING that has ever been shown to point to guilt.

    *How is it a false equivalency to compare these allegations to Bowie or Presley? Is it because you don’t want to compare these two men who are your favorites? Is it because you ACCEPT or don’t care about what Bowie and Presley did because the victims were female? The bottomline is that they were actually involved sexually with MINORS who were females. Presley was actually involved SEXUALLY with a 13-14 year old GIRL, Priscilla. I don’t know all details about Bowie, will have to do more research. No one is trying to make things up about these men, people are basically pointing out the HYPOCRISY of how these two white mens’ actions seem to be accepted and not vilified. It’s racist and sickening.

    *When Evan Chandler first asked Jordan if Michael had abused him, Jordan looked at him and laughed. Let’s not forget that this only happened after Evan had asked Michael for money to finance his projects. Michael REFUSED. Strangely, the only OTHER person that I have ever heard say that the Evan Chandler recording sounded like a “concerned father” is Dieann Demond. Wow, how convenient and coinencedental for you to say the exact same thing!!Hmmm! FTR, no rational person would listen to that recording from Evan and think he was “concerned” father. What “concerned” father would say “if I go through with this I WIN BIG”. Nothing about wanting justice for his so-called “abused” son. Nothing about wanted to physically hurt his son’s so called “abuser”. David Schwartz, Jordan’s step-father was actually the one who secretly recorded this Evan Chandler rant. On the recording, David asks Chandler, “what about Jordan, don’t you care about him?” Chandler answers that he doesn’t care WHO GETS HURT.” Now tell me again if THAT sounds like a “concerned” father.

    * You say fans tell people to listen to Charles Thomson, Danny Wu, Razorfist, etc. You say they have strong arguments but are not perfect. The bottomline is that their arguments are based on FACTS-court documents, evidence, timelines, etc. The haters and people involved in the scam have nothing except innuendo, rumors, manipulations, fake accusations, etc. These people have not presented any facts. Rational people go by REAL EVIDENCE, not graphic and fake scripts.

    *I’m trying to figure out what your “questions and doubts” about Michael’s pacifist image and creativity has to do with anything. Are you saying that these things affect whether you are a fan or not? That is very strange. Do you do that with every artist that you listen to or just when it comes to Michael Jackson? Btw, describe what you mean by “pacifist” image. Are you speaking of Michael’s philanthropy, humanitarianism, goodness, kindness toward people? Explain YOUR definition of “pacifist image”.

    * As for originality in Michael’s work, he is just as original as any other artist that you may listen to. He has ALWAYS acknowledged his studying other great artists an being influenced by them. How original was Elvis? How original was Sinatra? How original was Prince? and the list goes on and on. ALL artist “borrow” from other artists.I’m sure if we went back to the Classical era, we would find that Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, etc. “borrowed” notes, chords, from other composers. What really bothers me and other MJ fans is the hypocrisy and DOUBLE STANDARDS that people like you perpetuate upon Michael. It’s really sad and disgusting.
    Last edited by somewhereinthedark; 20-07-2020 at 12:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by somewhereinthedark View Post
    *How is saying “Michael is Innocent” with court documents, facts and evidence not enough , when you have brain dead people who actually believe that Michael is guilty without a shred of evidence or proof and based on nothing except manipulation, innuendo and fake allegations? The evidence is geared toward the fact that Michael IS Innocent, much more than guilt. I have seen NOTHING that has ever been shown to point to guilt.

    *How is it a false equivalency to compare these allegations to Bowie or Presley? Is it because you don’t want to compare these two men who are your favorites? Is it because you ACCEPT or don’t care about what Bowie and Presley did because the victims were female? The bottomline is that they were actually involved sexually with MINORS who were females. Presley was actually involved SEXUALLY with a 13-14 year old GIRL, Priscilla. I don’t know all details about Bowie, will have to do more research. No one is trying to make things up about these men, people are basically pointing out the HYPOCRISY of how these two white mens’ actions seem to be accepted and not vilified. It’s racist and sickening.

    *When Evan Chandler first asked Jordan if Michael had abused him, Jordan looked at him and laughed. Let’s not forget that this only happened after Evan had asked Michael for money to finance his projects. Michael REFUSED. Strangely, the only OTHER person that I have ever heard say that the Evan Chandler recording sounded like a “concerned father” is Dieann Demond. Wow, how convenient and coinencedental for you to say the exact same thing!!Hmmm! FTR, no rational person would listen to that recording from Evan and think he was “concerned” father. What “concerned” father would say “if I go through with this I WIN BIG”. Nothing about wanting justice for his so-called “abused” son. Nothing about wanted to physically hurt his son’s so called “abuser”. David Schwartz, Jordan’s step-father was actually the one who secretly recorded this Evan Chandler rant. On the recording, David asks Chandler, “what about Jordan, don’t you care about him?” Chandler answers that he doesn’t care WHO GETS HURT.” Now tell me again if THAT sounds like a “concerned” father.

    * You say fans tell people to listen to Charles Thomson, Danny Wu, Razorfist, etc. You say they have strong arguments but are not perfect. The bottomline is that their arguments are based on FACTS-court documents, evidence, timelines, etc. The haters and people involved in the scam have nothing except innuendo, rumors, manipulations, fake accusations, etc. These people have not presented any facts. Rational people go by REAL EVIDENCE, not graphic and fake scripts.

    *I’m trying to figure out what your “questions and doubts” about Michael’s pacifist image and creativity has to do with anything. Are you saying that these things affect whether you are a fan or not? That is very strange. Do you do that with every artist that you listen to or just when it comes to Michael Jackson? Btw, describe what you mean by “pacifist” image. Are you speaking of Michael’s philanthropy, humanitarianism, goodness, kindness toward people? Explain YOUR definition of “pacifist image”.

    * As for originality in Michael’s work, he is just as original as any other artist that you may listen to. He has ALWAYS acknowledged his studying other great artists an being influenced by them. How original was Elvis? How original was Sinatra? How original was Prince? and the list goes on and on. ALL artist “borrow” from other artists.I’m sure if we went back to the Classical era, we would find that Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, etc. “borrowed” notes, chords, from other composers. What really bothers me and other MJ fans is the hypocrisy and DOUBLE STANDARDS that people like you perpetuate upon Michael. It’s really sad and disgusting.
    The point is I WANT fans to make the right arguments instead of trivial misconceptions that those subreddits and youknowwhatsite will immediately cherrypick and throw the curveballs, and we go nowhere. If an argument goes like "MJ was guilty" followed by someone responding "MJ was innocent" without mentioning anything factual, how does that help MJ's legacy? It just gives the image of fanaticism. I don't believe people in this forum are like this, but I've seen this situation happen too often everywhere else.

    As for Evan Chandler, that is precisely the point I was looking for. As I said, he said it was irrelevant for Jordie that I questioned his motives, but to just quote him saying "I will win bigtime" or "this man won't sell another record" doesn't cut it.


    The last half of my statement has nothing to do with the allegations. Maybe it was better to word it as "exploring" MJ's persona and influences on his art, rather than questioning it. "Study the greats and become greater", but I don't believe he was the naive, friendly image he made fans believe he was.

    That is all I will say for now.
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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Why is this thread still going on? michael was/is innocent. lol. you guys argue about anything. my goodness.



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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Go read the michaeljacksonallegations website to learn the facts frank

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    What I'm going to say is not based on facts but if your son is allegedly raped by an adult male I wouldn't want the rapist to still run around freely , I would want him locked away, money becomes irrelevant to me. I believe this is the only natural reaction caring parents can have.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by JichaelMackson View Post
    What I'm going to say is not based on facts but if your son is allegedly raped by an adult male I wouldn't want the rapist to still run around freely , I would want him locked away, money becomes irrelevant to me. I believe this is the only natural reaction caring parents can have.
    I agree with ya.



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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Frank seems to be using every excuse in order to give credence to these people with an AGENDA. Seriously, anyone who says that there is no agenda is either naive or just plain ignorant. One doesn’t have to be a MJ fan in order to see that the reason/agenda behind these fake allegations. I have been a fan for over 30 years and have researched these fake allegations over the years, NOT ONE TIME has anyone shown or presented any evidence that points to guilt. These people play on the stupidity of gullible and weak-minded people by spewing and regurgitating lies, rumors and innuendo. Not one time have I seen any court documents or any evidence to prove what that claim.

    On the other hand, there are TONS of documents, timelines, depositions, witnesses, etc. that can PROVE that the handful of accusers are scam artists, extortionists, and flat out liars. It’s really simple, look at the EVIDENCE, not the things that have been manufactured and manipulated by people like Dieann Demond and her cohorts, who have been instigators, and conspirators since the 1993 scam. This is not speculation, this is FACT, with evidence to prove these peoples involvement in these scams for 30+ years. The bottomline is these people want to portray MJ supporters as naive and unaware. That is not true, because MJ fans are the most aware fans of any artist. WE HAVE TO BE because of all of the BS that Michael has gone through. We are lawyers, writers, educators, doctors, researchers, etc. We don’t sit on our asses and throw weak rhetoric around. We RESEARCH. We INVESTIGATE.

    Finally, you really do need to do more research yourself. You seem to be waffling between REAL evidence and MANIPULATION from fake sites with an AGENDA.
    Last edited by somewhereinthedark; 20-07-2020 at 03:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Exactly. If ppl are intrested in the facts theres enough sites out there to educate themselves thats if they are intrested😉.....

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    “...but I don't believe he was the naive, friendly image he made fans believe he was.”

    Speak for yourself. Don’t try and speak for what YOU think other MJ fans believe. MOST Michael fans are AWARE enough to know that being kind, good-hearted and friendly does not equate to being “naive”. I admit that Michael was TOO TRUSTING. HE saw the good in people because he was good. That is the very reason that he trusted trash like Chandler’s, Arvizzos, Robson’s and Safechucks. I really think your statements say more about you than they do Michael. Look at the “man or woman” in the mirror before you assume to know or speak for MJ fans in total. I don’t know how long that you have been a fan, if you are one; however, you really need to realize that the MAJORITY of MJ fans are not easily manipulated by anyone or anything-pro or con. MJ fans are not like haters, we don’t just sit around and accept things at face value, or because the media regurgitates bull@#$& or because scam artists make false accusations. We OBSERVE, RESEARCH and INVESTIGATE.

    Finally, I want to point out that defending Michael and not agreeing with rumors and manipulations does not mean that is “fanaticism”. I hear haters and even some so-called “objective” fans try and claim that a fan is fanatical only because he/she passionately defends MJ or rebuke the crap that is spewed. That type of rhetoric and assumption is not only stupid and ignorant, it is insulting to person’s intelligence. A person doesn’t have to be a fanatic, in order to speak from FACTS and EVIDENCE. I only brought up this topic because you seem to worry that haters call any MJ fan fanatical if they aggressively defend Michael. I say so what, who cares what a group of uninformed, brain-dead haters think! They are too lazy to do even the most basic research, therefore their opionion of MJ fans is irrelevant and null and void.
    Last edited by somewhereinthedark; 20-07-2020 at 04:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    I believe that most of us have at some point in our lives fallen flat on our face because we trusted someone too much. Doesn’t mean we’re all naive. Shit just happens sometimes.
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