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  1. #1
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    Default Asking ourselves tough questions.

    I think we need to ask ourselves some tough questions about Michael Jackson and his relationships with children over the years. For decades we have dismissed these relationships as Michael not having a childhood and being childlike. And I believe there is truth to that and he was childlike in many ways and did enjoy the company of children on a fun level.

    Let's also be honest about one thing... if it were anybody else but Michael Jackson, we would find these relationships deeply disturbing. The sleeping in the same bed so many nights in a row, the going on tour together and staying in hotel rooms together. Like it or not... this IS the sort of behaviour that a regular adult would display with a lover of the same age. We dismiss this by saying "there was only one person that lived a life like Michael Jackson. You can't compare him to regular people." This is true. But at the end of the day... he was still HUMAN. He was still an adult male with the needs of any other adult male. How were these needs being fulfilled all those nights? We know of only one woman that he ever slept with for sure. Lisa. That's it? Where are all the other women? Was he that good at hiding them? Maybe. But they certainly weren't on the road with him all those nights. It's possible that there were some after Lisa. We know of some of those stories. We know of him continuing to see Lisa for years after their divorce. But before Lisa? Maybe Michael WAS sexually repressed. Maybe he WASN'T ready for a sexual relationship. Maybe all of these friendships with children WERE innocent. Possibly.

    I'm not saying he was guilty. I'm saying we need to honestly ask ourselves these questions. For the first time in my life, I am seriously asking myself these questions and not dismissing them just because Michael had a different life to the rest of us. There is only so much of his life that we know, as much as all of us would like to think that we knew him so well. We knew parts of him. We didn't know all of him.

    Yes, I know all of the facts from 93, 2003 and the Robson/Safechuck lawsuit. It is possible to be the victim of extortion and also be guilty of committing a crime. It is possible to be the victim of lies while there still being some truth to what is being said. One doesn't necessarily counteract the other unequivocally. It is also possible to truly care about the plight of children and the world and also have a sickness that you can't control.

    I am still giving Michael the benefit of the doubt. I'm not saying I now believe he was a pedophile. Spence defended him, Mac defends him, Brett defends him, the Cascio's defend him, Omer defends him. But Wade and James also defended him. And then they filed a lawsuit for hundreds of millions of dollars. Money is always going to be a big red flag with these accusers. But in asking myself honestly these tough questions for the first time... there are also red flags in Michael's behaviour. People here know my history. Michael has felt like a family member to me my whole life. I've loved him since I was 2 years old. I've defended him through every allegation. His death was maybe the saddest thing I have ever had to deal with in my life up to this point. I do not write this lightly. And I hope you all don't condemn me for this post... though I know most of you will. I hope the fight continues and Michael's name is cleared.
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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Thank you for your honesty. Everything u said is valid and spot on.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    I think we've all had doubts in the past, no matter how slight, we're only human.
    Don't let the media sway you though. I know it's all glossy and sensationalist and in your face, but just remember the facts. The FBI tracked him for a decade and found nothing. His house was subjected to most extensive raid ever undertaken, they looked on his computer hard drives, through his files, everything and they couldn't find one tiny bit of evidence other than some heterosexual porn mags. Sneddon went all around the world trying to find kids to testify against Michael, and they got no-one. The evidence speaks for itself. He was innocent.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Its 06.51 AM here in sweden and I have not slept anything yet and I am too tired to make any post that makes sense.

    We had a thread called "Doubts" in the trial and tribulations sections in january and february when this all got going. That thread was ultimately deleted I believe, if I am not mistaken. If it was deleted, I am not aware that there were any statement made from the forum leaders why the exact reason was for it being deleted. We had a member banned from the forum at the same time I remember, but that member was in the main forum and encouraging other members to come to the "doubts" thread.

    Perhaps the moderators can clarify what happened to the "doubts" thread.

    I just dont want to engage in this thread at all in any way or form, before I am aware of if its even allowed to be a part of this thread.

    I like WildStyle contributions to the forum btw - and with that I do not mean this thread especially.
    Last edited by Lightbringer; 05-03-2019 at 06:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Michael's name was cleared long ago and that includes being cleared of these accusations made by Robson and Safechuck. They are bogus accusations, made up of lies and inconsistencies and false interpretations. It is innuendo based. NOTHING from Michael's life....his personality, his actions etc. is any different....it can't be different because it can't change and it can't be undone. What is different now, is their interpretation of his history and their re-write of their time with Michael, as part of his history. All they are doing now, in this documentary and in interviews, is looking at photos and messages and video footage and gifts and attaching a sinister undertone and a new "sexual" meaning to all of it. I don't need to ask myself any tough questions. I knew who Michael Jackson was years ago....I knew his heart and I knew his soul....both of which spoke directly to my heart and soul. This re-write of all of his interactions with people who chased HIM and begged HIM to allow them into his world, means less than nothing to me and never will mean a single damn thing.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbringer View Post
    We had a thread called "Doubts" in the trial and tribulations sections in january and february when this all got going. That thread was ultimately deleted I believe, if I am not mistaken. If it was deleted, I am not aware that there were any statement made from the forum leaders why the exact reason was for it being deleted.

    Perhaps the moderators can clarify what happened to "doubts" thread.
    In our opinion, a fan club and forum dedicated to Michael Jackson is not an appropriate place to express doubts about his innocence. There are other places to do that, such as twitter, Facebook, in the comment sections of tabloid articles, Reddit, MJ Facts, LSA and so on. MJJC is for supporting Michael Jackson and his family. People are free to have doubts, but they are not free to bring them here. This entire mess is heartbreaking enough already and it's enough to have to fight against the media, trolls and haters, without putting fans into the mix, as well. If someone is being swayed by these two liars, who incidentally made their claims against Michael's companies and against the Estate six years ago....well......that confuses the hell out of us.

    A statement was made for the members, by the Administration Team at the time that the thread was deleted, to explain the philosophy expressed above, although it should be an understanding on the part of most members that doubting Michael's innocence is not part of a site dedicated to the man. The Administration announcement appeared in the MJJ Community Announcements and Feedback thread.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Mikky Dee : Thank you very much for that information. Well articulated post.

    I will head over to that section of the forum and read after I have slept a few hours. I cant sleep at all since the past weekend. Just stressed and trying to combat everyone on facebook, twitter and youtube at the same time.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Michael Jacksons sexual interest was only into woman. The pornomagazines proves it! As far as I know some had his sperm on it.
    Did you ever listen to the Glenda Tapes?
    There you can find much evidence for that.

    Diana Ross was the love of his life. I wish she whoud stand up for MJ and admit that they had a secret relationship in these days. I belive they had one.
    He wrote the song Muscles for her.
    Muscles was the name of MJs snake but a snake is also a symbol for something what is forbidden or not right in the eyes of a socity like a relationship between a much younger man and a older woman in the 80ies). Now listen to the song muscles again!

    https://youtu.be/IJk5e29htxQ

    He wanna marry her for years! There is a presscomference in 1986 were he won an award for "We are the world" after Ross married another man and you can see and feel his deep sadness and pain because of that!
    There are many songs which seemed dedicated to her like Dirty Diana, who is it, give in to me, Remember the time.
    In the orginal video of Remember the time was a love massage dedicated to her.
    There were also loving notes dedicated to her in the history booklet with an very intime foto of him and her during the times they dated.
    He had a shrine for her in neverland.
    Someone said he dedicated the organisation "Go for your dreames" he talked about on his Neverland Birthday Party to Diana Ross and he wanted her to take care of his children when he and his mother are gone.

    There are so muuuuuch examples which shows that he was interested into woman.
    I don't know someone who is a long time fan and stuied him for decaded can doubt that his sexual interest was into woman!
    I mean in his art alone are multible evidences alone.
    You can feel his spirit there and the sexual energy when he sang songs about woman.
    There is no sexual energy in any song he sings about children.
    Last edited by ManBehindTheMirrOr - Dona; 05-03-2019 at 07:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    I went from not wanting to watch the doc to being curious about it. If people with no affinity for MJ are convinced he is guilty then I think we must oblige ourselves to watch it and judge for ourselves.

    And yes I'm (more or less) aware of the background of the accusers and I'm also aware of a couple of other ones coming froward to claim nothing ever happened.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    For me it's weakness. I'll admit that openly.

    To maintain your position, the one you've had for decades in the face of the whole world telling you that you're wrong is so hard. Some days I'm full of spirit other days I'm beaten down and tired when you see that article after article has been published condemning him.

    It feels unfair to expect anyone to keep fighting this, seemingly, losing battle.

    I feel strongly that Michael is not guilty of these things, and I feel strongly that Wade, Dan and co. are guilty of greed and where Dan is concerned just blatant hatred of Michael and what he stood for. But it's becoming less and less about that now. I'm being forced into a world I really do not want to be in. My usual technique in dealing with this type of negative energy is to remove myself from it but it's nigh on impossible to do that in this scenario. A few days away from it helps but I feel like all I'm doing is sitting ignorantly in a burning house.

    It's just weakness in my character that's being tested and exposed right now. And if things don't change soon it will crack beyond repair.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
    For me it's weakness. I'll admit that openly.

    To maintain your position, the one you've had for decades in the face of the whole world telling you that you're wrong is so hard. Some days I'm full of spirit other days I'm beaten down and tired when you see that article after article has been published condemning him.

    It feels unfair to expect anyone to keep fighting this, seemingly, losing battle.

    I feel strongly that Michael is not guilty of these things, and I feel strongly that Wade, Dan and co. are guilty of greed and where Dan is concerned just blatant hatred of Michael and what he stood for. But it's becoming less and less about that now. I'm being forced into a world I really do not want to be in. My usual technique in dealing with this type of negative energy is to remove myself from it but it's nigh on impossible to do that in this scenario. A few days away from it helps but I feel like all I'm doing is sitting ignorantly in a burning house.

    It's just weakness in my character that's being tested and exposed right now. And if things don't change soon it will crack beyond repair.
    This new media barrage does feel like an Orwellian nightmare. But you know damn well that you are not alone in standing by Michael and by being principled. You should be proud of yourself for not being a brainwashed zombie, a heartless robot and an uncritical sheep.
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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    I think it is pretty clear that Michael’s dependence on these boys and families was not healthy. He should have been in therapy instead.

    But this doesn’t mean he molested anybody.

    I still think that if there had been evidence to find, law enforcement would have found it. They worked too long and too hard on it. It is true that our justice system doesn’t get everything right, but this was not some rinky dink, run-of-the-mill, unimportant case. The whole world was focused on it and on top of that conventional wisdom said that Michael was guilty. Yet, he was exonerated.

    I still think on balance that given all of the scrutiny, the overwhelming odds are that if he had molested one of these boys, it would have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by wednesday View Post
    This new media barrage does feel like an Orwellian nightmare. But you know damn well that you are not alone in standing by Michael and by being principled. You should be proud of yourself for not being a brainwashed zombie, a heartless robot and an uncritical sheep.
    Thank you

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
    For me it's weakness. I'll admit that openly.

    To maintain your position, the one you've had for decades in the face of the whole world telling you that you're wrong is so hard. Some days I'm full of spirit other days I'm beaten down and tired when you see that article after article has been published condemning him.

    It feels unfair to expect anyone to keep fighting this, seemingly, losing battle.

    I feel strongly that Michael is not guilty of these things, and I feel strongly that Wade, Dan and co. are guilty of greed and where Dan is concerned just blatant hatred of Michael and what he stood for. But it's becoming less and less about that now. I'm being forced into a world I really do not want to be in. My usual technique in dealing with this type of negative energy is to remove myself from it but it's nigh on impossible to do that in this scenario. A few days away from it helps but I feel like all I'm doing is sitting ignorantly in a burning house.

    It's just weakness in my character that's being tested and exposed right now. And if things don't change soon it will crack beyond repair.
    I basically just stop caring. It's a discussion nobody can win, not those against MJ nor the other side. It's nothing new , when in public there's talk about MJ there's always an unfunny joke or two coming up even after 2005 and 2009. I just don't react to it anymore.
    It's not going to determine my life and my mood.

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    Default Re: Asking ourselves tough questions.

    Thank you for writing this. I am in the UK and have been a vocal MJ supporter for 25 years, arguing his innocence with friends, family and strangers whenever I needed to. Today I downloaded Leaving Neverland and have just finished it and it’s changed my view of MJ possibly forever.

    The first part was graphic but I battered it away with “there’s no proof, they are after money” etc but the second part, seeing their emotions and their family’s reactions has destroyed me. For me, the most brutal line of the whole thing was when James was asked to testify and he said to him mum back in 2005 “Michael’s Evil”.

    Yes this was very one sided, yes they are after money, yes they have said different things in the past... but what they say in this interview, and importantly how they say it (especially in part 2) can not be simply dismissed as lies and not considered as potentially true. I now have doubts that I never in 25 years had before. I will never believe the scum Arvisos but this has shattered my beliefs and now I can no longer say with certainty that he was innocent.

    A very very sad day. I wish and hope it’s not true because if it is, he was a monster.

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